[Tim Sprout]

Typically, tracks from two room mics in XY configuration would be hard
panned left and right to minimize phasing issues?

A stereo track from, say, an eDrum brain that assigns panning internally
by the device, would be panned to zero to minimize phasing issues?

Tim Sprout

[PStamler]

On Thursday, January 8, 2015 12:51:32 PM UTC-6, Tim Sprout wrote:
Typically, tracks from two room mics in XY configuration would be hard
panned left and right to minimize phasing issues?

No, the two tracks from an XY setup are typically panned hard left/right to create a stereo image. Assuming the mic capsules are essentially coincident, phasing doesn't come into it. The classic way of keeping them coincident is to stack the two capsules on top of one another -- that way the vertical distance between them is small, and there's no horizontal distance.

XY setups are most often done with small-diaphragm mics such as KM 84s; with a mic of those dimensions the vertical separation will be on the order of 0.75". That means phase cancellation won't happen for any frequency below about 9kHz, and won't be audible in any meaningful way.

I've occasionall panned XY mics to much narrower angles (when using them as drum overheads, for example) and haven't had any phasing issues crop up. Always did this with small-diaphragm mics.

Peace,
Paul

[Neil[_9_]]

On 1/8/2015 1:51 PM, Tim Sprout wrote:
Typically, tracks from two room mics in XY configuration would be hard
panned left and right to minimize phasing issues?

A stereo track from, say, an eDrum brain that assigns panning internally
by the device, would be panned to zero to minimize phasing issues?

Electronic devices with stereo outputs should be panned to non-zero
positions, or they wind up generating a mono signal. Phase relations are
not analogous to mic'd tracks because acoustics aren't involved, and the
"distance" between drums is controlled by settings in the device's
mixer. I'd not expect any phasing when adjusting the "width" of the set,
but you probably won't want full L/R on your mixer.
--
best regards,

Neil

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 1/8/2015 7:51 PM, Tim Sprout wrote:
Typically, tracks from two room mics in XY configuration would be hard
panned left and right to minimize phasing issues?

Answered by Paul, so I won't repeat it.

A stereo track from, say, an eDrum brain that assigns panning internally
by the device, would be panned to zero to minimize phasing issues?

Electronic drums, whether they come from a drum machine, real drums or
pads with pickups, or a virtual instrument plug-in have no leakage so
there will be no two drums that have out-of-phase information. If you
pan the stereo outputs hard left and right, you'll get the stereo drum
panning that the person who set up the "brain" thought was right.

If you want to pan them to the center in order to have mono drums, you
need to listen carefully, as some, perhaps most electronic drums have
some processing that creates a sense of space around each drum, and the
effects may partially or entirely cancel when they're all summed
together - as would be the case if all drums with their effects were
panned to the same position.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[geoff]

On 9/01/2015 10:47 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
On 1/8/2015 7:51 PM, Tim Sprout wrote:
Typically, tracks from two room mics in XY configuration would be hard
panned left and right to minimize phasing issues?

Answered by Paul, so I won't repeat it.

A stereo track from, say, an eDrum brain that assigns panning internally
by the device, would be panned to zero to minimize phasing issues?

Electronic drums, whether they come from a drum machine, real drums or
pads with pickups, or a virtual instrument plug-in have no leakage so
there will be no two drums that have out-of-phase information. If you
pan the stereo outputs hard left and right, you'll get the stereo drum
panning that the person who set up the "brain" thought was right.

If you want to pan them to the center in order to have mono drums, you
need to listen carefully, as some, perhaps most electronic drums have
some processing that creates a sense of space around each drum, and the
effects may partially or entirely cancel when they're all summed
together - as would be the case if all drums with their effects were
panned to the same position.



..... and some have them already panned to default positions. Editable
hopefully.

geoff

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 1/9/2015 6:44 AM, geoff wrote:

.... and some have them already panned to default positions. Editable
hopefully.

As I interpreted Tim's original post, he understood that the drums were
pre-panned. If the electronic drums have a stereo output, there's always
panning, usually quite wide. The better ones allow editing the mix
(volume, pan position, maybe effects), simple drum machines are often
100% fixed presets with only an overall volume control.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Tim Sprout]

On 1/9/2015 3:09 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 1/9/2015 6:44 AM, geoff wrote:

.... and some have them already panned to default positions. Editable
hopefully.

As I interpreted Tim's original post, he understood that the drums were
pre-panned. If the electronic drums have a stereo output, there's always
panning, usually quite wide. The better ones allow editing the mix
(volume, pan position, maybe effects), simple drum machines are often
100% fixed presets with only an overall volume control.

Yes, the eDrum brain has editable pre-pan control for each pad trigger.
I understand now (and with experimenting) that it's stereo output, when
panned hard left and right, reflects the pre-pan positions set in the
brain, and that the stereo output, when panned to zero, sums to mono.

Also, that there are no phasing issues with an XY mic setup or with
eDrum panning.

Thanks all for the helpful replies.


Tim Sprout

[Scott Dorsey]

Tim Sprout wrote:
Typically, tracks from two room mics in XY configuration would be hard
panned left and right to minimize phasing issues?

If you have a recording that you want to stand by itself, that is what you
would do. You'd spread the thing across the entire stereo image.

If you had a 2-track recording that you wanted to mix into a multitrack mix,
though, you might want to collapse it in somewhat by panning them closer to
the center.

A stereo track from, say, an eDrum brain that assigns panning internally
by the device, would be panned to zero to minimize phasing issues?

Presumably you would be bringing those into your console or DAW as two channels,
which you would treat just like an X-Y recording. If you brought it in as
a stereo track, you would have less control over it because you could only
adjust the balance, you couldn't blend the channels at all.

Whether there would be phasing issues or not depends entirely on the samples
that eDrum is using. When in doubt, use your ears.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Tim Sprout]

On 1/9/2015 8:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Tim Sprout wrote:
Typically, tracks from two room mics in XY configuration would be hard
panned left and right to minimize phasing issues?

If you have a recording that you want to stand by itself, that is what you
would do. You'd spread the thing across the entire stereo image.

If you had a 2-track recording that you wanted to mix into a multitrack mix,
though, you might want to collapse it in somewhat by panning them closer to
the center.

A stereo track from, say, an eDrum brain that assigns panning internally
by the device, would be panned to zero to minimize phasing issues?

Presumably you would be bringing those into your console or DAW as two channels,
which you would treat just like an X-Y recording. If you brought it in as
a stereo track, you would have less control over it because you could only
adjust the balance, you couldn't blend the channels at all.

Whether there would be phasing issues or not depends entirely on the samples
that eDrum is using. When in doubt, use your ears.
--scott

Phasing issues due to sample sources having overlapping frequency ranges?

Tim Sprout

[Neil[_9_]]

On 1/9/2015 1:09 PM, Tim Sprout wrote:
On 1/9/2015 8:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
[...]
Whether there would be phasing issues or not depends entirely on the
samples
that eDrum is using. When in doubt, use your ears.
--scott

Phasing issues due to sample sources having overlapping frequency ranges?

For eDrums, the most audible phasing issues would be with higher
frequency sounds, such as cymbal samples. Some units' samples may have
embedded phasing issues as a result of the recording process. One may
also run into phasing issues with two (or more) cymbals due to
overlapping frequency ranges and placement in the mix.
--
best regards,

Neil

[Scott Dorsey]

Tim Sprout wrote:
On 1/9/2015 8:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Tim Sprout wrote:

Whether there would be phasing issues or not depends entirely on the samples
that eDrum is using. When in doubt, use your ears.

Phasing issues due to sample sources having overlapping frequency ranges?

Phasing issues due to the same signal being in both channels at different
times.

With an X-Y recording, both channels are always in phase, you can sum them
into mono and it'll sound the same. But if you use two mikes spaced a couple
feet apart as drum overheads, it'll sound natural panned hard left and right
but if you go into mono or you pan the two channels closer to the center, you
will hear comb filtering on drums from the side because the signals are not
striking the two microphones at the same time. Most noticeable on cymbals.

Sometimes people like the effect, sometimes they don't.

With electronic drums, you have no control over the miking; the guys that
made the samples originally did it all. So you get what you get.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."