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#1
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VU Meters
With all due respect to Coleman Audio, can someone suggest a less expensive way to find a pair of analog VU meters for a
stereo program buss? http://goo.gl/6mWuGZ I don't even see how big the meters are. Maybe I have to roll my own. |
#2
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VU Meters
mcp6453 wrote:
With all due respect to Coleman Audio, can someone suggest a less expensive way to find a pair of analog VU meters for a stereo program buss? http://goo.gl/6mWuGZ I don't even see how big the meters are. Maybe I have to roll my own. There really aren't many. The Dorrough is even more money. You can find surplus meters and add resistors and metalwork yourself. I think Simpson will still sell you a real VU meter movement for $250. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#3
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VU Meters
On Monday, December 22, 2014 2:54:54 PM UTC-6, Scott Dorsey wrote:
mcp6453 wrote: With all due respect to Coleman Audio, can someone suggest a less expensive way to find a pair of analog VU meters for a stereo program buss? http://goo.gl/6mWuGZ I don't even see how big the meters are. Maybe I have to roll my own. There really aren't many. The Dorrough is even more money. You can find surplus meters and add resistors and metalwork yourself. I think Simpson will still sell you a real VU meter movement for $250. --scott Which means you're probably better off cannibalizing them from someplace. Two other possibilities: National Semiconductor, in their datasheets for the LED-array drivers which power a lot of peak-reaing meters, gave a circuit which supposedly emulated BU meter ballistics. I have no idea how well it worked. And Heathkit claimed that the meter on their Audio Analyzer (an SMPTE IM meter) had true-VU ballistics. I've found it useful as a good stand-in. Of course, for stereo you'd need two of them -- plus a way to line up your 0 VU point to the boxes'. Peace, Paul |
#4
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VU Meters
Er, VU.
Peace, Paul |
#5
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VU Meters
mcp6453 wrote:
With all due respect to Coleman Audio, can someone suggest a less expensive way to find a pair of analog VU meters for a stereo program buss? http://goo.gl/6mWuGZ I don't even see how big the meters are. Maybe I have to roll my own. Find an old cassette deck. -- Les Cargill |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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VU Meters
PStamler wrote:
Er, VU. .... Brutus? Peace, Paul -- eLs Cargill |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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VU Meters
mcp6453 wrote:
With all due respect to Coleman Audio, can someone suggest a less expensive way to find a pair of analog VU meters for a stereo program buss? http://goo.gl/6mWuGZ I don't even see how big the meters are. Maybe I have to roll my own. RS Components have a cheap meter movement in their catalogue which is calibrated in "VU" and has a non-linear magnetic field to give a suitable response. You would have to add a rectifier and metalwork. -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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VU Meters
In article ,
mcp6453 wrote: With all due respect to Coleman Audio, can someone suggest a less expensive way to find a pair of analog VU meters for a stereo program buss? http://goo.gl/6mWuGZ I don't even see how big the meters are. Maybe I have to roll my own. Thing with a VU is that to make the spec, the actual meter movement has to be very well made. Hence the high cost. Most of the VUs you see on domestic equipment don't meet the spec. -- *If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#9
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VU Meters
"Les Cargill" wrote in message ...
Find an old cassette deck. A true VU meter has specific "ballistic" characteristics that take into account the nature of music. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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VU Meters
On 12/23/2014 5:04 AM, Les Cargill wrote:
Find an old cassette deck. There are VU meters, and there are meters that look like VU meters. Old cassette decks have the latter. A real VU meter is a joy to use, even for digital recording when you set the reference level properly (0 VU = -20 dBFS or so) -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#11
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VU Meters
On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 6:30:03 AM UTC-7, Mike Rivers wrote:
A real VU meter is a joy to use, even for digital recording when you set the reference level properly (0 VU = -20 dBFS or so) "or so." The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them.... Yours truly, Mr. Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E. |
#12
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VU Meters
PStamler wrote:
Two other possibilities: National Semiconductor, in their datasheets for the LED-array drivers which power a lot of peak-reaing meters, gave a circuit which supposedly emulated BU meter ballistics. I have no idea how well it worked. It was not half bad! It was not as good as the Dorrough or the vacuum fluorescent meters that Radio Systems used in the eighties, but it was very close to a real VU meter although it did not overshoot properly. Oh... RTW also makes very expensive and very accurate standalone meters... --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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VU Meters
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , mcp6453 wrote: With all due respect to Coleman Audio, can someone suggest a less expensive way to find a pair of analog VU meters for a stereo program buss? http://goo.gl/6mWuGZ I don't even see how big the meters are. Maybe I have to roll my own. Thing with a VU is that to make the spec, the actual meter movement has to be very well made. Hence the high cost. Most of the VUs you see on domestic equipment don't meet the spec. Do you even see them on domestic consumer equipment today? --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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VU Meters
On 12/23/2014 2:55 PM, Klay Anderson wrote:
A real VU meter is a joy to use, even for digital recording when you set the reference level properly (0 VU = -20 dBFS or so) "or so." The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them.... In this case, it's not a standard, just a recommendation (mine). A standard is 0 VU = +4 dBu or +4 dBm or +8 dBm because those are established industry standard levels which generally allow a certain amount of headroom above them (which is typically not specified) since maximum output level (however that's specified) isn't always known. The nice thing about digital audio is that you can choose the amount of headroom that you want. 0 dBFS is absolute, so if you want 20 dB of headroom over a 0 reading on your VU meter, you set 0 VU at -20 dBFS, assuming your A/D converter has an input level control and you can actually do that. If you want to live on the edge and allow only 10 dB of headroom, you can set 0 VU to represent -10 dBFS. Or anywhere in between. It was typical on DAT recorders for there to be a marker at -16 or -18 dBFS, and you could calibrate that to represent 0 on your VU meter, if you had one. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#15
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VU Meters
In article ,
Scott Dorsey wrote: Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , mcp6453 wrote: With all due respect to Coleman Audio, can someone suggest a less expensive way to find a pair of analog VU meters for a stereo program buss? http://goo.gl/6mWuGZ I don't even see how big the meters are. Maybe I have to roll my own. Thing with a VU is that to make the spec, the actual meter movement has to be very well made. Hence the high cost. Most of the VUs you see on domestic equipment don't meet the spec. Do you even see them on domestic consumer equipment today? I made that comment with reference to :- ********** From: Les Cargill Subject: VU Meters Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 04:00 Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro Find an old cassette deck. ********* Being UK broadcast based, VUs were simply things fitted to some pro tape recorders and best ignored. ;-) -- *I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway through. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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VU Meters
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Scott Dorsey wrote: Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , mcp6453 wrote: With all due respect to Coleman Audio, can someone suggest a less expensive way to find a pair of analog VU meters for a stereo program buss? http://goo.gl/6mWuGZ I don't even see how big the meters are. Maybe I have to roll my own. Thing with a VU is that to make the spec, the actual meter movement has to be very well made. Hence the high cost. Most of the VUs you see on domestic equipment don't meet the spec. Do you even see them on domestic consumer equipment today? I made that comment with reference to :- ********** From: Les Cargill Subject: VU Meters Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 04:00 Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro Find an old cassette deck. ********* Being UK broadcast based, VUs were simply things fitted to some pro tape recorders and best ignored. ;-) I find BBC-type PPMs much easier to use and the readings tally better with the apparent loudness as well as indicating the actual signal level. http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/images/CBAT01_3666s.JPG -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#17
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VU Meters
In article .invalid,
Adrian Tuddenham wrote: Being UK broadcast based, VUs were simply things fitted to some pro tape recorders and best ignored. ;-) I find BBC-type PPMs much easier to use and the readings tally better with the apparent loudness as well as indicating the actual signal level. Oh. That's fighting talk these days. It's all now about loudness meters that apparently anyone can read without training. But if anything levels between programmes are now more adrift than was once the case. -- *Heart attacks... God's revenge for eating his animal friends Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#18
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VU Meters
Dave Plowman (News):
This interest in VU meters is the best thing that could happen in digital audio! No more peak-based metering and all the 'nastiness' it wrought since its inception. |
#19
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VU Meters
Dave Plowman (News) wrote: "Oh. That's fighting talk these days. It's all now about loudness meters "
Denying that there's a problem, are we? |
#21
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VU Meters
skrev i en meddelelse
... Dave Plowman (News) wrote: "Oh. That's fighting talk these days. It's all now about loudness meters " Denying that there's a problem, are we? There is the same issue as there was in the days of the VU-meter: operator competence, it is no more of an issue nor no less. Merry Christmas! Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#22
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VU Meters
In article ,
Peter Larsen wrote: skrev i en meddelelse ... Dave Plowman (News) wrote: "Oh. That's fighting talk these days. It's all now about loudness meters " Denying that there's a problem, are we? There is the same issue as there was in the days of the VU-meter: operator competence, it is no more of an issue nor no less. In one. The best 'meter' in the world is a decent pair of ears. But the suits know only too well those cost more than mere electronics. -- *A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#23
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VU Meters
John Williamson, et al:
Sorry, but having Zero at the top of anything just causes too many problems(getting level up too close to it, etc) despite its alleged usefulness in preventing digital overs & clipping. It's human nature to do so, and moving zero down from the top(via VU or loudness meter) will eliminate these problems. |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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VU Meters
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#25
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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VU Meters
skrev i en meddelelse
... John Williamson, et al: Sorry, but having Zero at the top of anything just causes too many problems(getting level up too close to it, etc) despite its alleged usefulness in preventing digital overs & clipping. No. It's human nature to do so, and moving zero down from the top (via VU or loudness meter) will eliminate these problems. No. At the risk of upstaging a participant from a more westerly location relative to London: your line of reasoning has moved from the incompetent to a lower level. It is a well established conceptual standard that zero dB is the adjustment reference level. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#26
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VU Meters
Peter Larsen wrote: "
Sorry, but having Zero at the top of anything just causes too many problems(getting level up too close to it, etc) despite its alleged usefulness in preventing digital overs & clipping. No. It's human nature to do so, and moving zero down from the top (via VU or loudness meter) will eliminate these problems. No. At the risk of upstaging a participant from a more westerly location relative to London: your line of reasoning has moved from the incompetent to a lower level. It is a well established conceptual standard that zero dB is the adjustment reference level. Kind regards Peter Larsen " Peter I'd be saying the same thing regardless of where I was from, LOL: I'm accounting for simple psychology in this regard. People(not just engineers, but church board operators, backyard DJs, bedroom recordists) naturally aim for zero dB, or just above it, regardless of where zero is on a scale. It's not going to make sense or seem natural for them when they are told to peak between -6 and -12 on a full-scale digital meter with zero at the top. They'll even apply compression and/or hard limiting to get that meter to 'stick' closer to 0dBfs. But with zero at -18 or -20 on that same scale, the concept of HEADROOM(old 20th century relic to some here) becomes abundantly clear. |
#27
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VU Meters
On 12/24/2014 1:20 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In one. The best 'meter' in the world is a decent pair of ears. But the suits know only too well those cost more than mere electronics. When it comes to recording, that has to be coupled with proper setup and calibration since you can't always hear distortion until you play back the recording. If you try to calibrate your system so that 0 on the analog meter and 0 on the digital meter agree, you're guaranteed plenty of clipping when you start recording music that way, unless you barely let the VU meter move. Of course when it comes to mixing, mastering, and making it loud, that's a matter of exercising good (or bad) taste. A loudness meter is useful for determining whether a full program is compliant with the law. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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VU Meters
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#29
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VU Meters
On 12/24/2014 12:13 PM, John Williamson wrote:
The purpose of VU meters was to give an indication of levels in a way useful when recording on tape, which could safely be overdriven to a certain extent without sounding too nasty. That's the practical application in recording. The original intent of the VU meter was to show broadcasters that their speech level was correct. When it became desirable to drive tape into non-linearity on occasion (some say "always, for sure") we started calibrating recorders so that the VU meter was a useful indicator of when we were in that region between clean-as-possible and "creative distortion," Since A/D converters don't have such as broad a range of acceptable distortion as tape, like, practically no range at all, VU metering for digital recording fell out of practice in favor of a meter that shows how much headroom you have before calamity. But what good is a meter that people only use to show that they've pushed as hard as they can go, not how well they're doing at adjusting levels? The purpose of peak meters is to give an accurate indication of the maximum levels going into transmitters or a digital chain, where peaks that are even slightly too high can give very unpleasant sounding clipping. There used to be a red light for that, and I still think that the VU meter with an LED to indicate a user-calibrated peak level above 0 VU is the most useful visual indicator for setting record level. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#31
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VU Meters
On 12/24/2014 1:51 PM, John Williamson wrote:
The metering I use has green bars up to a certain point, then yellow, then the top few are red. Green is on the quiet side, yellow is okay, red is dead. It works for me... What I'd like to see on every digital meter is greater resolution close to full scale. All too often the last step on the meter before red is -10 dBFS or so. Same goes for digital meters showing analog levels. For example, the meter on my Mackie Onyx mixer is stepped like this: +20 (clip) +10 +7 +4 +2 0 with the same steps below 0 So what you have is the rough equivalent of a mechanical VU meter that has good resolution around 0, but if you're feeding an A/D converter from the mixer that's calibrated so that +20 on the mixer's meter is 0 dBFS, you have 10 dB of ambiguity between the last indicator before you reach clipping. When the +10 LED is on, your record level could be anywhere between -10 dBFS or just a hair under 0 dBFS. While it's good advice to keep the level such that the +10 LED only blinks occasionally, try to tell that to someone who wants slamming drums, slamming guitars, slamming bass, and slamming vocals. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#32
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VU Meters
wrote in message
... John Williamson, et al: Sorry, but having Zero at the top of anything just causes too many problems Note everyone is as stupid as you are. |
#33
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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VU Meters
John Williamson wrote:
On 24/12/2014 10:45, wrote: This interest in VU meters is the best thing that could happen in digital audio! No more peak-based metering and all the 'nastiness' it wrought since its inception. The purpose of VU meters was to give an indication of levels in a way useful when recording on tape, which could safely be overdriven to a certain extent without sounding too nasty. The purpose of peak meters is to give an accurate indication of the maximum levels going into transmitters or a digital chain, where peaks that are even slightly too high can give very unpleasant sounding clipping. Actually, the purpose of VU meters was to give an indication of perceived levels on telephone lines. VU meters were problematic even in the analogue tape era... the tape would clip 20 dB below the +3 mark on a trumpet even though you could bring a flute all the way up to the end of the scale. Which is why we got PPM meters, which never caught on in the US but became almost universal in the UK. It is VERY nice to have the RME dual-reading meters which give you a peak bar (with peak hold!) and a VU-ballistic bar overlaid on top of one another, because it gives you some notion of just what your crest factor is by eye. If anything, peak metering *prevents* nastiness when recording digitally or driving a transmitter, while using VU metering in these cases can give rise to clipped peaks unless the engineer leaves a large margin for error. Yes, precisely. Peak and average metering systems are different tools for different jobs. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#34
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VU Meters
John Williamson wrote:
On 24/12/2014 12:39, wrote: Sorry, but having Zero at the top of anything just causes too many problems(getting level up too close to it, etc) despite its alleged usefulness in preventing digital overs & clipping. It's human nature to do so, and moving zero down from the top(via VU or loudness meter) will eliminate these problems. No it doesn't generally cause problems. As has been said on another post on this thread, the problem is with the person using the meters, not the meters themselves. The meters come from an era when volume controls had the zero at the top and an infinity at the bottom. Which makes perfect sense if you think about it. The metering I use has green bars up to a certain point, then yellow, then the top few are red. Green is on the quiet side, yellow is okay, red is dead. It works for me... If you believe it. The Mackie consoles start to sound funny well below the point where the meter goes yellow. On the other hand, you can slam the meters on the Neve and it sounds just fine. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#35
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VU Meters
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...
The meters come from an era when volume controls had the zero at the top and an infinity at the bottom. You mean no one made a volume control that went to 11? Which makes perfect sense if you think about it. Not really. Given that dBs are logarithmic, 0 is an easily understood reference for maximum input level.. |
#36
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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VU Meters
In article ,
William Sommerwerck wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... The meters come from an era when volume controls had the zero at the top and an infinity at the bottom. You mean no one made a volume control that went to 11? Which makes perfect sense if you think about it. Not really. Given that dBs are logarithmic, 0 is an easily understood reference for maximum input level.. Depends on your training. To someone with no training 0 would mean nothing? 100% would be maximum. And in the UK, if you talk about 0 level to an older sound tech in broadcast, it actually means 8dB below peak. With the agreed EBU line-up for digital systems, this is still the case. With 0 level referring to 18dBFS. Ie 10dB of headroom for any errors. And some broadcasters still stick to this for transmission. Sadly some of the radio people do not, and peak to 0dBFS. And since in the UK the TV transmission system also carries most radio, you get the nonsense of some radio services peaking 10dB higher than TV sound. -- *What hair colour do they put on the driver's license of a bald man? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#37
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VU Meters
heres a good idea for an invention...
video cameras have a mode called ZEBRA STRIPES which casue any area that is oversaturated white to have ugly obvious stripes through it. This appears only in the view finder and does not go on the recording and is meant to alert the videographer that the white is being clipped. A simialr device would be interesting in an audio monitor. If you go over clipping, it makes a loud obvious obnoxious noise to alert you...well some op amps already do that.... :-) Mark |
#38
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VU Meters
skrev i en meddelelse
... here's a good idea for an invention... video cameras have a mode called ZEBRA STRIPES which casue any area that is oversaturated white to have ugly obvious stripes through it. This appears only in the view finder and does not go on the recording and is meant to alert the videographer that the white is being clipped. A simialr device would be interesting in an audio monitor. If you go over clipping, it makes a loud obvious obnoxious noise to alert you...well some op amps already do that.... :-) First: some blind users already deploy some kind of a buzzer or tingler. Next: what you suggest, if verbatim deployed, would be a grave hearing damage risk and also a risk to monitoring transducers. Third: recordists work by the credo "yellow is the new red" and thus nowadays tend to sit on their fingers to avoid touching any gain buttons so as to avoid having to do the inverse gain riding in post. You come across as having only a modest, if at all any, comprehension of the record and post workflows. Mark Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#39
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VU Meters
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ...
Not really. Given that dBs are logarithmic, 0 is an easily understood reference for maximum input level.. Depends on your training. To someone with no training 0 would mean nothing? Oh, I do so want to make a wisecrack about recording engineers. But I won't. With 0 level referring to 18dBFS. ie, 10dB of headroom for any errors. When I made live recordings, I'd ask the orchestra to play the loudest passage from the works they were performing, then set the level about 1dB below that. My experience was that orchestras play a bit louder during the actual performance. |
#40
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VU Meters
wrote:
heres a good idea for an invention... video cameras have a mode called ZEBRA STRIPES which casue any area that is oversaturated white to have ugly obvious stripes through it. This appears only in the view finder and does not go on the recording and is meant to alert the videographer that the white is being clipped. A simialr device would be interesting in an audio monitor. If you go over clipping, it makes a loud obvious obnoxious noise to alert you... "Coaster 1.1" from 1999 does this. I still run it on Mac OS8.6 for most of my stereo recordings. -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
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