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#1
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
hey all,i wanna convert this plate to a stereo solid state version,
im guessing id need a power amp to send signal to the driver and i plan on putting piezo pick up's on it, so i'll also need a for of mic pre right?to send the reverberation signal back into daw. any recommendation's of driver amp or pre's used to do this job would be greatly appreciated,, regards christian best |
#2
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
Christian Best wrote:
hey all,i wanna convert this plate to a stereo solid state version, im guessing id need a power amp to send signal to the driver and i plan on putting piezo pick up's on it, so i'll also need a for of mic pre right?to send the reverberation signal back into daw. any recommendation's of driver amp or pre's used to do this job would be greatly appreciated,, regards christian best Why the piezo pickups? Martinsound will probably still sell you a kit to do exactly what you want. Jim Cunningham may still have pickups but he probably won't have the amp module. You really want to use original electronics, they are still part of the sound. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#3
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
thanks for reply,i read somewhere,i think jim cunning hams site that his upgrade was a piezo replacement.
i'll contact Martinsound and see what the options are,i suppose its a thing of,if your gonna do it,do it right. i was hoping that there'd be a slightly more economic approach. thanks again christian |
#4
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
Christian Best wrote:
thanks for reply,i read somewhere,i think jim cunning hams site that his upgrade was a piezo replacement. Putting piezo pickups in is not exactly an upgrade... it completely changes the sound, giving you a whole lot more low end and some peaky stuff up top that the original pickups don't do. You might like that, you might not. If you put piezo pickups in, you will need to reduce the amplifier gain by about 20dB and probably decrease some coupling cap values to reduce the bottom end buildup. (And yes, Cunningham is correct that the hum is reduced a lot in the process.) But it's a very striking sound change, it does not sound like the original to me. i'll contact Martinsound and see what the options are,i suppose its a thing of,if your gonna do it,do it right. i was hoping that there'd be a slightly more economic approach. Economic and EMT plates have never gone together. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#5
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
"Christian Best" skrev i en meddelelse
... hey all,i wanna convert this plate to a stereo solid state version, What you want to do seems to me to be to convert a valuable classic to a - to be positive - less valuable hot-rod. So what problem is it you want to solve by doing it? My opinion: Do not do it. Leave as is. If you need stereo verb then use a digital stereo verb or room simulator on its output. Untested instinctive opinion based on experience. Stereo can be overrated, some of the time what a vox needs is exactly a mono plate sound return. I remember recording an oratorio where just that was what made vox sound natural and at the proper place in the perspective in spite of being spot-miked, a natural verb sound just didn't do it right. christian best Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#6
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
thanks guys,, i take your advice on board,,if i could get the original pick ups i'd go there,but its seems impossible to find them. "Stereo can be overrated" i agree that sometimes it is what is necessary but,i'd like to use it as my main verb and i do tend to go with stereo, more often than not . checked an old gearslutz post saying the upgrade kit from martin sound is $2500. thats out of my budget right now unfortunately. i might get a local tech to try emulate it from schematic's. (amp 162) does anyone know of an amp that might be a good starting place to replace the driver amp, surely the pick up's are a pretty simple case of amplifying the signal,this like anything sound source is affected by the type of pre and id be comfortable to have a decent enough pre do that job. regards christian |
#7
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
On 18/12/2014 7:22 a.m., Christian Best wrote:
thanks for reply,i read somewhere,i think jim cunning hams site that his upgrade was a piezo replacement. i'll contact Martinsound and see what the options are,i suppose its a thing of,if your gonna do it,do it right. i was hoping that there'd be a slightly more economic approach. thanks again christian If the original amp broken or degraded, a rebuild would be one way to go. Primarily replacing any electrolytic capacitors, and anything else that may have drift (maybe some old resistors, but unlikely). geoff |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
Christian Best wrote:
thanks guys,, i take your advice on board,,if i could get the original pick ups i'd go there,but its seems impossible to find them. .... checked an old gearslutz post saying the upgrade kit from martin sound is $2500. thats out of my budget right now unfortunately. I believe that kit contains a second pickup, or at least it used to. If that's out of your budget, consider buying a used Sony DPS V-77. It is not a perfect plate emulation, but it's a pretty good plate emulation. It's as good as the fancy Yamaha modelling reverb unit. i might get a local tech to try emulate it from schematic's. (amp 162) If you can get someone to do that for $2500, you're doing great. I'd probably charge that much just for chassis machining. does anyone know of an amp that might be a good starting place to replace the driver amp, surely the pick up's are a pretty simple case of amplifying the signal,this like anything sound source is affected by the type of pre and id be comfortable to have a decent enough pre do that job. If you use something other than the original electronics, it won't sound the same. If you use different pickups, it will sound really not the same. If it doesn't sound the same, what is the point of having an EMT anyway? --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#9
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
On 12/17/2014 3:09 PM, Christian Best wrote:
i take your advice on board,,if i could get the original pick ups i'd go there,but its seems impossible to find them. How much of this plate reverb do you have, or not have? -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
Peter Larsen wrote:
"Christian Best" skrev i en meddelelse ... hey all,i wanna convert this plate to a stereo solid state version, What you want to do seems to me to be to convert a valuable classic to a - to be positive - less valuable hot-rod. So what problem is it you want to solve by doing it? My opinion: Do not do it. Leave as is. If you need stereo verb then use a digital stereo verb or room simulator on its output. Untested instinctive opinion based on experience. Stereo can be overrated, some of the time what a vox needs is exactly a mono plate sound return. I remember recording an oratorio where just that was what made vox sound natural and at the proper place in the perspective in spite of being spot-miked, a natural verb sound just didn't do it right. So how deterministic are plates? Would it be possible to record one pass of mono on one track, then a second pass of mono on a separate track? I have done this with spring reverbs before. It wasn't *STEREO*, but there was some difference between the two passes. And yeah - it's a PITA christian best Kind regards Peter Larsen -- Les Cargill |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
On Wednesday, 17 December 2014 23:16:52 UTC, Les Cargill wrote:
Peter Larsen wrote: "Christian Best" skrev i en meddelelse ... hey all,i wanna convert this plate to a stereo solid state version, What you want to do seems to me to be to convert a valuable classic to a - to be positive - less valuable hot-rod. So what problem is it you want to solve by doing it? My opinion: Do not do it. Leave as is. If you need stereo verb then use a digital stereo verb or room simulator on its output. Untested instinctive opinion based on experience. Stereo can be overrated, some of the time what a vox needs is exactly a mono plate sound return. I remember recording an oratorio where just that was what made vox sound natural and at the proper place in the perspective in spite of being spot-miked, a natural verb sound just didn't do it right. So how deterministic are plates? Would it be possible to record one pass of mono on one track, then a second pass of mono on a separate track? I have done this with spring reverbs before. It wasn't *STEREO*, but there was some difference between the two passes. And yeah - it's a PITA christian best Kind regards Peter Larsen -- Les Cargill right, I'm thinking i'll use the tube v54 mono amp to drive the plate and get either martech pick up's or piezo's for the stereo thing, then just use DI's and mic pre's to amplify. "HOW MUCH OF THIS PLATE REVERB DO YOU HAVE, OR NOT HAVE?" i have everything thats needed to run a mono tube plate. minus the side panels and cover for the v54 amp,and remote,i reckon i'll get that made in time. im not 100% bummed out that it won't be totally original,because in ireland where i come from, finding a plate is rare,so i have to work with what i got. i'll need to get clips and spring too as it'll need to be tuned when it its final location. thanks all again regards christian |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
Christian Best wrote:
i have everything thats needed to run a mono tube plate. minus the side panels and cover for the v54 amp,and remote,i reckon i'll get that made in time. Well, get the thing up and running as a mono tube plate, decide how you like the sound, and then worry about anything else later. You're going to have enough work just getting it running. im not 100% bummed out that it won't be totally original,because in ireland where i come from, finding a plate is rare,so i have to work with what i got. i'll need to get clips and spring too as it'll need to be tuned when it its final location. That's no reason to butcher it and turn it into something else. First get it working properly (and if it involves moving it make sure it is prepped according to the manual... magnet removed, everything locked into place, nothing able to shift). Recap the amplifier, clean everything up (and if it has been in storage you may need to steel wool the plate), and tune it. Follow the tuning directions in the manual; don't believe people who tell you that you need to crank it up until clips are breaking right and left. Do put a drop of light oil on each of the clips before you start screwing them down because the threads on the screws will bind if they have not been touched in a long time. Just get it running as a mono plate system that is as original as possible and decide if you like the sound. If you want to turn it into something else, maybe you are better off trading it for something else once you have it working properly. But before you do anything you need to get it up to spec and familiarize yourself with the sound and operation and the various tricks for using it. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
On Thursday, 18 December 2014 14:57:24 UTC, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Christian Best wrote: i have everything thats needed to run a mono tube plate. minus the side panels and cover for the v54 amp,and remote,i reckon i'll get that made in time. Well, get the thing up and running as a mono tube plate, decide how you like the sound, and then worry about anything else later. You're going to have enough work just getting it running. im not 100% bummed out that it won't be totally original,because in ireland where i come from, finding a plate is rare,so i have to work with what i got. i'll need to get clips and spring too as it'll need to be tuned when it its final location. That's no reason to butcher it and turn it into something else. First get it working properly (and if it involves moving it make sure it is prepped according to the manual... magnet removed, everything locked into place, nothing able to shift). Recap the amplifier, clean everything up (and if it has been in storage you may need to steel wool the plate), and tune it. Follow the tuning directions in the manual; don't believe people who tell you that you need to crank it up until clips are breaking right and left. Do put a drop of light oil on each of the clips before you start screwing them down because the threads on the screws will bind if they have not been touched in a long time. Just get it running as a mono plate system that is as original as possible and decide if you like the sound. If you want to turn it into something else, maybe you are better off trading it for something else once you have it working properly. But before you do anything you need to get it up to spec and familiarize yourself with the sound and operation and the various tricks for using it. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." hey scott, "That's no reason to butcher it and turn it into something else" if i use the b54 tube amp to drive the plate and put two other pick up's on it and power the pick up's,be it piezo or martech's,would you real consider that butchering. it would very easily be brought back to its glorious mono situation by removing the piezo or one of the new pick up's and drive and amping from the v54 amp. i would hazard a guess that a lot of plates where converted to stereo because of peoples individual preference to it being stereo rather than mono.,,,I've heard worked in studio's with Emt 140's before and think i'd prefer a stereo,,if someone would swap a stereo for a mono, id gladly trade plus cash,,not sure i'll have any takers tho. anyway.one step at a time,powering the amp is the first real concern,it was gone over before going into storage and that was 15 years ago so,,how knows what died in that time. thanks for your input,it is appreciated regards christian |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
Christian Best wrote:
On Thursday, 18 December 2014 14:57:24 UTC, Scott Dorsey wrote: "That's no reason to butcher it and turn it into something else" if i use the b54 tube amp to drive the plate and put two other pick up's on= it and power the pick up's,be it piezo or martech's,would you real conside= r that butchering. It wouldn't sound like the original EMT plate any more, so I'd call that butchering or at least messing it up. The reason why you get an EMT today is because it sounds like an EMT, so if you do something to it that makes it sound like something else, you have defeated the whole idea, and spent a lot of work doing it. Back in the sixties, when the EMT was all there was short of a chamber reverb, people did a lot of crazy things to alter the sound including dabbing paint on the plate to try and break vibration modes up, using different pickup, and changing the amps. People did all sorts of stuff with pre-delay, using garden hoses with compression drivers and microphones at the end, or magnetostrictive delay lines from military radar systems. Most of this stuff was done to try and get a more natural sounding reverb from the EMT. Today, if you want a natural reverb there are a lot of pieces of equipment to get it, and you don't use an EMT for that. You use an EMT because it sounds like an EMT. it would very easily be brought back to its glorious mono situation by remo= ving the piezo or one of the new pick up's and drive and amping from the v5= 4 amp. Yes, and if you do that, make sure you document what you do, make sure you keep the parts removed, and make sure all this stuff is kept with the EMT and not in some other place in the facility where it will become separated someday. i would hazard a guess that a lot of plates where converted to stereo becau= se of peoples individual preference to it being stereo rather than mono.,,,= I've heard worked in studio's with Emt 140's before and think i'd prefer a = stereo,,if someone would swap a stereo for a mono, id gladly trade plus cas= h,,not sure i'll have any takers tho. Try it in mono and see. Pan the return a little bit to the side if you want some stereo width. Think of the EMT as an effects device, not like a room reverb. If you actually want stereo spread on the reverb return, put an Orban stereo synthesizer on the reverb. The effect holds up very well, and the Orban units sell for next to nothing today. You're probably not going to be using the plate on the 2-buss anyway, it's mostly going to be used on isolated channels. The effect builds up and can become very heavy-handed if you aren't careful. anyway.one step at a time,powering the amp is the first real concern,it was= gone over before going into storage and that was 15 years ago so,,how know= s what died in that time. Were all the caps replaced back then? If the original paper caps are in there, now would be a good time to replace them with film caps. They will not sound quite the same, but they also won't fail and take out other components right and left the way the paper caps will. The electrolytics in the power supply you can bring up slowly and hope they form properly. If they don't, replace them. If you don't have a variac, use a 100W lamp in series with the power cord for a couple hours to let the thing slowly come up at lower voltage. Watch the rectifier, if it shows signs of getting really hot, shut it down. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
Back in the sixties, when the EMT was all there was short of a chamber reverb, people did a lot of crazy things to alter the sound including dabbing paint on the plate to try and break vibration modes up, using different pickup, and changing the amps. People did all sorts of stuff with pre-delay, using garden hoses with compression drivers and microphones at the end, or magnetostrictive delay lines from military radar systems. OK now I am curious..what does an EMT sound like? Is there a good example of a popular commercial recording that has an obvious EMT sound? Mark |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
In article ,
wrote: Back in the sixties, when the EMT was all there was short of a chamber reverb, people did a lot of crazy things to alter the sound including dabbing paint on the plate to try and break vibration modes up, using different pickup, and changing the amps. People did all sorts of stuff with pre-delay, using garden hoses with compression drivers and microphones at the end, or magnetostrictive delay lines from military radar systems. OK now I am curious..what does an EMT sound like? Is there a good example of a popular commercial recording that has an obvious EMT sound? Jesus, just about every pop song for twenty years used it. Lots of them overused it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx06XNfDvk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN3GbF9Bx6E Notice it's bouncy and clangy without being boingy and clattery like a spring. You can make it darker than either of these examples but these are the typical ones I can think of off the top of my head. Your other choice in that era was a reverb chamber, like this one at Columbia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zLfCnGVeL4 Notice it's less boingy, sounds much more like a real room, but it doesn't give you the cool exaggerated articulation of the plate. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
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#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 09:47:45 -0800 (PST), Christian Best
wrote: hey all,i wanna convert this plate to a stereo solid state version, im guessing id need a power amp to send signal to the driver and i plan on putting piezo pick up's on it, so i'll also need a for of mic pre right?to send the reverberation signal back into daw. any recommendation's of driver amp or pre's used to do this job would be greatly appreciated,, regards christian best --Oh these EMTs. I wish there existed an "Anti-EMT Plugin" today Anyhow, turntables and 140 plates were battlehorses of EMT. Later came the transportable EMT 240 gold foil plate (it seems that people didn't like it as the as the 140), followed by electronic and digital reverbs. The digital 250 was priced about 30 thousand Deutsch Marks which was very much in that time. Universal Audio makes an emulation:-- http://www.uaudio.com/store/reverbs/emt-250.html There were mono, stereo and qoadrophonic versions of the 140. The stereo 140 was dealing with with "M" componet of a M-S matrix only. For better understanding, I'll write down the original description: "For the addition of reverberation to stereophonic recordings, the reverberation unit must satisfy two separate conditions: For one, it must extract from the stereo signal its directional component and secondly, it must not, as a result, adverserly affect the signficant information content. In order to achieve this end, use is made of the so-called "M" channel which is formed by the addition of the two signals according to the formula A + B = M. This is done by feeding part of the unreverberated output signal of channels A and B trough isolation networks to a common bus. For compatibly recorded signals this addition of A and B into an "M" channel produces a proper monophonic signals containing all of the informational content of the stereo signals. Etc etc. What a hitech language. Therefore I'd say, 1. Leave the 140 as it is if it's working properly. 2. Use a M/S matrix. 3. Process the "M" trough the 140. 4. Recombine the stereo again. 5. Fertig. Of course, meanwhile you keep the extracted "S" file ready and you will note peak values of "M" and "S" file and keep them just as they are, altering this would affect your stereo. Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
On Friday, 19 December 2014 14:15:20 UTC, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Christian Best wrote: On Thursday, 18 December 2014 14:57:24 UTC, Scott Dorsey wrote: "That's no reason to butcher it and turn it into something else" if i use the b54 tube amp to drive the plate and put two other pick up's on= it and power the pick up's,be it piezo or martech's,would you real conside= r that butchering. It wouldn't sound like the original EMT plate any more, so I'd call that butchering or at least messing it up. The reason why you get an EMT today is because it sounds like an EMT, so if you do something to it that makes it sound like something else, you have defeated the whole idea, and spent a lot of work doing it. Back in the sixties, when the EMT was all there was short of a chamber reverb, people did a lot of crazy things to alter the sound including dabbing paint on the plate to try and break vibration modes up, using different pickup, and changing the amps. People did all sorts of stuff with pre-delay, using garden hoses with compression drivers and microphones at the end, or magnetostrictive delay lines from military radar systems. Most of this stuff was done to try and get a more natural sounding reverb from the EMT. Today, if you want a natural reverb there are a lot of pieces of equipment to get it, and you don't use an EMT for that. You use an EMT because it sounds like an EMT. it would very easily be brought back to its glorious mono situation by remo= ving the piezo or one of the new pick up's and drive and amping from the v5= 4 amp. Yes, and if you do that, make sure you document what you do, make sure you keep the parts removed, and make sure all this stuff is kept with the EMT and not in some other place in the facility where it will become separated someday. i would hazard a guess that a lot of plates where converted to stereo becau= se of peoples individual preference to it being stereo rather than mono.,,,= I've heard worked in studio's with Emt 140's before and think i'd prefer a = stereo,,if someone would swap a stereo for a mono, id gladly trade plus cas= h,,not sure i'll have any takers tho. Try it in mono and see. Pan the return a little bit to the side if you want some stereo width. Think of the EMT as an effects device, not like a room reverb. If you actually want stereo spread on the reverb return, put an Orban stereo synthesizer on the reverb. The effect holds up very well, and the Orban units sell for next to nothing today. You're probably not going to be using the plate on the 2-buss anyway, it's mostly going to be used on isolated channels. The effect builds up and can become very heavy-handed if you aren't careful. anyway.one step at a time,powering the amp is the first real concern,it was= gone over before going into storage and that was 15 years ago so,,how know= s what died in that time. Were all the caps replaced back then? If the original paper caps are in there, now would be a good time to replace them with film caps. They will not sound quite the same, but they also won't fail and take out other components right and left the way the paper caps will. The electrolytics in the power supply you can bring up slowly and hope they form properly. If they don't, replace them. If you don't have a variac, use a 100W lamp in series with the power cord for a couple hours to let the thing slowly come up at lower voltage. Watch the rectifier, if it shows signs of getting really hot, shut it down. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." hey scott,, thanks for the update,,i agree,i will deco try and keep it as original for a start,deco try a similar to Orban stereo synthesiser vibe. any advice on the glue i could use on regaling the dampening tiles? lots have come unglued. also i'll show your post to the tech that works on it,, regards and thanks Christian |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
Christian Best wrote:
hey scott,, thanks for the update,,i agree,i will deco try and keep it as original for a start,deco try a similar to Orban stereo synthesiser vibe. any advice on the glue i could use on regaling the dampening tiles? lots have come unglued. Go to your auto parts store, ask for 3M weatherstripping adhesive. It is a similar contact cement to the original. The 3M comes in black or yellow, both are very tenacious and you will never get them off of your pants. also i'll show your post to the tech that works on it,, regards and thanks If he is an old fart he probably knows all that stuff already. If he isn't an old fart, find someone who is. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
On Tuesday, 23 December 2014 15:03:41 UTC, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Christian Best wrote: hey scott,, thanks for the update,,i agree,i will deco try and keep it as original for a start,deco try a similar to Orban stereo synthesiser vibe. any advice on the glue i could use on regaling the dampening tiles? lots have come unglued. Go to your auto parts store, ask for 3M weatherstripping adhesive. It is a similar contact cement to the original. The 3M comes in black or yellow, both are very tenacious and you will never get them off of your pants. also i'll show your post to the tech that works on it,, regards and thanks If he is an old fart he probably knows all that stuff already. If he isn't an old fart, find someone who is. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." will do scott thanks agin for the smiley advise,,:-) |
#22
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replacement amp for a mono tube EMT 140
On Tuesday, 23 December 2014 18:10:05 UTC, Jeff Henig wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: If he is an old fart he probably knows all that stuff already. If he isn't an old fart, find someone who is. --scott And hope that old fart ain't silent but deadly. It's usually the most pungent farts that linger longest. -- ---Jeff And hope that old fart ain't silent but deadly. It's usually the most pungent farts that linger longest. hahaha |
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