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#41
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
On 3/29/2012 8:13 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:
What's professional about simply avoiding feedback? Apparently some people can't do it, or don't bother to do it. That seems pretty unprofessional to me. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#42
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
Mxsmanic wrote:
Scott Dorsey writes: You wouldn't expect your church to hire a preacher whose only knowledge of the job is that he once read about Jesus in a magazine, would you? But thousands of churches bring on sound guys who have similar qualifications regarding audio.... That's because churches place their priorities on religion, not sound. If you can't hear the minister, why even bother having him? Mind you, the Quakers have a solution for that one. And the Catholics have a standardized service so you don't need to understand the words, you just memorize the responsoria. Are there many sound engineering firms that hire cardinals to give them spiritual advice? Well, I worked with one who hired Rev. Horton Heat for that. --Scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#43
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
On Thu 2012-Mar-29 17:26, Mike Rivers writes:
On 3/29/2012 4:45 PM, Mxsmanic wrote: This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools, clubs, etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and may or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros. In that case, why should they even think that they can expect or achieve professional results? This IS rocket science and needs a rocket scientist to operate it properly. Sound reinforcement is not like turning on the TV set. Right, and those places should at least have the system installed by a competent professional. I don't know if i"d call it rocket science, but there are indeed things that need to be understood. A competent professional can set a system up for such facilities so that its average operator can use it without getting into trouble and enable it to do its job. If you think your space needs sound reinforcement so that the presentation can be heard by all the patrons, congregation, student body, etc. then it behooves you to have it properly installed and set up. IF the folks with the purse strings are too cheap/stupid to find such a person then they're not qualified for those positions imho. Regards, Richard -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. |
#44
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:13:07 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:
What's professional about simply avoiding feedback? A lot of professionalism *is* about avoiding making simple mistakes. A famous chef was asked the difference between a professional and an amateur (in his field) "a professional doesn't cut his finger when he's chopping the vegetables" -- Anahata -+- http://www.treewind.co.uk Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827 |
#45
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Predictable in the sense that feedback is determnistic. Recreate the scenario exactly, and it happens. Whether anybody in particular knows the exact recipie for a given mode of feedback is always in question. A competent PA operator will have checked the system out beforehand to find out specifically where the stability issues are. It's his job. He'll have had someone walk around stage with a microphone and found out where the issues are, and at what frequencies, and to what degree. That might work if you were able to do live sound with just one microphone on at a time, and there was only one kind of microphone. Now, just for fun have maybe a dozen or two dozen mics on at the same time. Every acoustic instrument but the brass has to be miced because the orchestra is inherently unbalanced. Two to six of the mics are held by people who are walking around and talking. Maybe 5-10 different makes and models are in play. Have a room that is so live that the presence or non-presence of an audience makes a difference for stability. The good news is that adding an audience almost always stabilizes the system, that is unless someone walks off stage with a live mic (or two) to pick up their comments which of course happens as well. What happens if there is a poor turnout? At best you're in a situation where a room that was stable when you shut the system down at the end of a performance goes into feedback when you turn it back on for the next rehearsal. Finally, my comments about some sounds triggering feedback that would not be noticeable without the sound. Practical experience says that any sound source can do it, but the strongest influence of that kind I've ever worked with is a pipe organ. Yup, doing live sound in a HOW is very easy... until you try it! ;-) |
#46
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... Richard Webb writes: I would agree, and this is one of the tasks that is always required when I set up a system. iF, for a conference or convention there will be microphones placed anywhere than a "stage" or front area known locations that will be problems are found as well, and either avoided, or the problem freqs notched with eq if we must. IT's part of the job. This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools, clubs, etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and may or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros. Not only that, but the HOW context presents a number of fairly unique errr, opportunities that I just listed in another post. One of the really nasty parts of HOW sound is that very few of them have what one could recognize as a professional stage. I work in those rooms as well, and there is no doubt that the classic design for a performance room is just wonderful. |
#47
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ... On 3/29/2012 4:45 PM, Mxsmanic wrote: This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools, clubs, etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and may or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros. In that case, why should they even think that they can expect or achieve professional results? Because churches have a certain segment of people who are habitual complainers, and people who are control freaks. This IS rocket science and needs a rocket scientist to operate it properly. Sound reinforcement is not like turning on the TV set. One of the more rewarding events of my life was when some of the complainers I live with decided to a rehearsal of their quartet without getting staff support. They thought that they knew it all when it came to live sound based on their high school experiences. They showed up and couldn't even turn the system on. Didn't shut them up, though. |
#48
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... Mike Rivers writes: In that case, why should they even think that they can expect or achieve professional results? What's professional about simply avoiding feedback? You have to know at least a few things, like don't put the mics in front of the speakers. Of course, if you know what you are doing, you can put the mics in front of the speakers and live to tell the story. ;-) Well, sometimes. I guess I should that if you know what you are doing you can make a system with mics in front of the speakers stable. |
#49
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Mike Rivers wrote: On 3/29/2012 4:45 PM, Mxsmanic wrote: This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools, clubs, etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and may or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros. In that case, why should they even think that they can expect or achieve professional results? This IS rocket science and needs a rocket scientist to operate it properly. Sound reinforcement is not like turning on the TV set. You wouldn't expect your church to hire a preacher whose only knowledge of the job is that he once read about Jesus in a magazine, would you? If having a masters degree in Jesus was all it took to make a good preacher, a lot of churches would be far better off. But thousands of churches bring on sound guys who have similar qualifications regarding audio... Sadly, true. And if they have someone who does know what they are doing, good chance they will treat him like all he did was read that magazine, based on their own reading of a magazine or less... |
#50
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... Scott Dorsey writes: You wouldn't expect your church to hire a preacher whose only knowledge of the job is that he once read about Jesus in a magazine, would you? But thousands of churches bring on sound guys who have similar qualifications regarding audio.... That's because churches place their priorities on religion, not sound. Are there many sound engineering firms that hire cardinals to give them spiritual advice? Wrong church. The RC church, by virtue of their typically heavy reliance on highly traditional forms of worship, are actually pretty simple from a sound system requirements perspective. Not that many rise to the occasion. It is the evangelical church that gets into forms of worship that can be technically challenging. And many of the most successful of them (read 10,000s of attendees every weekend) have very good staff and rely on consultants in reasonable ways. Trouble is that the typical evangelical church has about 100 attendees, and a yearly budget of maybe $200,000 or less. A good part of that $200k goes into staff and paying off the mortgage. Most have stable/slowly declining attendance figures so that there is no growth or attendee turnover to promote change. Church lay leadership is hand-picked to be compatible with the prevailing level of thought which lead to the stable/declining attendance figures, as well. |
#51
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... If you can't hear the minister, why even bother having him? Good question, if understanding what is being said were truely important. What highly popular american church denomination didn't even use the language of the land for worship until the 1960s, but instead spoke in a language that is not the vernacular in any part of he world today including where it orginated? The message is that for many attendees worship is not an intellecutual experience that can be compared to many other parts of life. They go and get their spiritual tickets punched, not knowing that there is no such ticket. Mind you, the Quakers have a solution for that one. And the Catholics have a standardized service so you don't need to understand the words, you just memorize the responsoria. Kinda. Are there many sound engineering firms that hire cardinals to give them spiritual advice? Well, I worked with one who hired Rev. Horton Heat for that. !!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-) |
#52
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote: Richard Webb writes: I would agree, and this is one of the tasks that is always required when I set up a system. iF, for a conference or convention there will be microphones placed anywhere than a "stage" or front area known locations that will be problems are found as well, and either avoided, or the problem freqs notched with eq if we must. IT's part of the job. This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools, clubs, etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and may or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros. Then they get what they pay for. --scott I bought an airplane but I can't afford a pilot, or flying lessons. But I have a friend whose cousin's uncle was a cook in the Air Force, and I'm going to ask him to fly me around. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
#53
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 3/29/2012 4:45 PM, Mxsmanic wrote: This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools, clubs, etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and may or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros. In that case, why should they even think that they can expect or achieve professional results? This IS rocket science and needs a rocket scientist to operate it properly. Sound reinforcement is not like turning on the TV set. There is an astonishing amount of this lackadaisical assumption process in the music club biz. I even run into guys (it's always a guy, and when it isn't the operator always seems well informed) who've been doing it for decades and still have not a clue. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
#54
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 3/29/2012 8:13 PM, Mxsmanic wrote: What's professional about simply avoiding feedback? Apparently some people can't do it, or don't bother to do it. That seems pretty unprofessional to me. The guy is clueless about how to avoid feedback and then asks a perfect troll question... -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
#55
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
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#56
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
On 3/30/2012 7:57 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
One of the really nasty parts of HOW sound is that very few of them have what one could recognize as a professional stage. I work in those rooms as well, and there is no doubt that the classic design for a performance room is just wonderful. Those that have less than optimum facilities and no competent system operators should simply be prepared to accept either feedback or lower volume. You can't have everything unless you put everything into it. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#57
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
hank alrich writes:
I bought an airplane but I can't afford a pilot, or flying lessons. But I have a friend whose cousin's uncle was a cook in the Air Force, and I'm going to ask him to fly me around. How much do you pay for the computer professional who maintains your computer? |
#58
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
How much do you pay for the computer professional
who maintains your computer? When you are older, Mr Mxyzptlk, you will have more respect for the effort it takes to master unfamiliar material, and why those with knowledge and experience should not be expected to waste large amounts of time giving it away to the lazy and unmotivated. |
#59
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
On 3/30/2012 8:45 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:
How much do you pay for the computer professional who maintains your computer? I figure I'm worth about $100/hour to learn how to maintain a computer. g -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#60
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
William Sommerwerck writes:
When you are older, Mr Mxyzptlk, you will have more respect for the effort it takes to master unfamiliar material, and why those with knowledge and experience should not be expected to waste large amounts of time giving it away to the lazy and unmotivated. I'm already older, and I recognize the service I render to others when I pass on any knowledge I have to them, and I've developed the patience to do so even if they seem to have difficulty learning. Then again, even when I was younger, I knew better than to fritter away my time in sophomoric personal attacks on others. |
#61
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
Mike Rivers writes:
I figure I'm worth about $100/hour to learn how to maintain a computer. My point is that you cannot complain about others being unwilling to hire expensive professionals in your own field if you do not do the same for other fields. While some here say that it's necessary to hire a professional in order to do audio right, I rather doubt that they are hiring IT professionals to build and maintain their computers, or electronic engineers to set up their TV sets, or nutritionists to select what they'll have for dinner. |
#62
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
William Sommerwerck wrote:
How much do you pay for the computer professional who maintains your computer? When you are older, Mr Mxyzptlk, you will have more respect for the effort it takes to master unfamiliar material, and why those with knowledge and experience should not be expected to waste large amounts of time giving it away to the lazy and unmotivated. Uh oh... Now he's getting feedback... -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
#63
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
... William Sommerwerck writes: When you are older, Mr Mxyzptlk, you will have more respect for the effort it takes to master unfamiliar material, and why those with knowledge and experience should not be expected to waste large amounts of time giving it away to the lazy and unmotivated. I'm already older, and I recognize the service I render to others when I pass on any knowledge I have to them, and I've developed the patience to do so even if they seem to have difficulty learning. Then again, even when I was younger, I knew better than to fritter away my time in sophomoric personal attacks on others. You certainly do an excellent job of testing the patience of those in this group. |
#64
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
"Jeff Henig" wrote in message
... "William Sommerwerck" wrote: How much do you pay for the computer professional who maintains your computer? When you are older, Mr Mxyzptlk, you will have more respect for the effort it takes to master unfamiliar material, and why those with knowledge and experience should not be expected to waste large amounts of time giving it away to the lazy and unmotivated. +1 for the DC Comics reference! In case anyone's interested... I'm finally installing a router. (This was provoked by the purchase of a notebook with wireless capabilities.) Though Comcast will step me through the setup at no charge (which, technically, has been paid for by the cost of my Internet service), I'm studying the manufacturer's user manual to get an understanding of the settings. I also intend to go through the automated setup before calling Comcast. To be perfectly honest, this is not just out of respect for whomever at Comcast will be helping. I don't like looking completely ignorant about something. Especially when I can read a book on the subject. I recently called a company to get specialized information. I apologized to the person for possibly wasting his time, and he thanked me for recognizing that I might be interfering with is work. We had a friendly talk. |
#65
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
On 3/30/2012 10:47 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:
My point is that you cannot complain about others being unwilling to hire expensive professionals in your own field if you do not do the same for other fields. While some here say that it's necessary to hire a professional in order to do audio right, I rather doubt that they are hiring IT professionals to build and maintain their computers, or electronic engineers to set up their TV sets, or nutritionists to select what they'll have for dinner. The thing is that there are specific questions one can ask when it comes to maintaining a computer, and when one asks specific questions in the right places, one can get answers, usually given in good faith. But "how to stop feedback" is a very general question and the answer requires understanding a lot of different things, nearly all of which are things that are learned by doing, supplemented by textbooks explaining why they happen. Sound system engineering isn't something you can read a book about and then just do correctly. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#66
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ... On 3/30/2012 10:47 PM, Mxsmanic wrote: My point is that you cannot complain about others being unwilling to hire expensive professionals in your own field if you do not do the same for other fields. While some here say that it's necessary to hire a professional in order to do audio right, I rather doubt that they are hiring IT professionals to build and maintain their computers, or electronic engineers to set up their TV sets, or nutritionists to select what they'll have for dinner. The thing is that there are specific questions one can ask when it comes to maintaining a computer, and when one asks specific questions in the right places, one can get answers, usually given in good faith. But "how to stop feedback" is a very general question and the answer requires understanding a lot of different things, nearly all of which are things that are learned by doing, supplemented by textbooks explaining why they happen. Sound system engineering isn't something you can read a book about and then just do correctly. In this case, Mrs. Maniac isn't even willing to read the book. |
#67
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
Mxsmanic wrote:
Mike Rivers writes: I figure I'm worth about $100/hour to learn how to maintain a computer. My point is that you cannot complain about others being unwilling to hire expensive professionals in your own field if you do not do the same for other fields. But we do. And some of us complain about poor system administration just as much as we do poor audio. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#68
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
William Sommerwerck writes:
You certainly do an excellent job of testing the patience of those in this group. That depends on how bright they are. |
#69
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
Mike Rivers writes:
The thing is that there are specific questions one can ask when it comes to maintaining a computer, and when one asks specific questions in the right places, one can get answers, usually given in good faith. But "how to stop feedback" is a very general question and the answer requires understanding a lot of different things, nearly all of which are things that are learned by doing, supplemented by textbooks explaining why they happen. Similarly general questions can be asked about computers, and someone who knows computers can answer them. The answer may be longer or shorter than it would be for a very specific question; the correlation between generality of a question and the complexity of the answer is not strong. |
#70
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
None writes:
In this case, Mrs. Maniac isn't even willing to read the book. These days I have no money for books (or for glasses, which I'd probably need to read the books). |
#71
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
On Sat 2012-Mar-31 06:05, Mike Rivers writes:
On 3/30/2012 10:47 PM, Mxsmanic wrote: My point is that you cannot complain about others being unwilling to hire expensive professionals in your own field if you do not do the same for other fields. While some here say that it's necessary to hire a professional in order to do audio right, I rather doubt that they are hiring IT professionals to build and maintain their computers, or electronic engineers to set up their TV sets, or nutritionists to select what they'll have for dinner. IN fact, the one place where I somewhat agree with him is most JOe sixpack types should be paying a professional to maintain their computers, especially if they're operating on always connected broadband networks, because obviously with all the malware etc. out there what's under the hood is too sophisticated for jOe sixpack to understand and dela with appropriately. The thing is that there are specific questions one can ask when it comes to maintaining a computer, and when one asks specific questions in the right places, one can get answers, usually given in good faith. But "how to stop feedback" is a very general question and the answer requires understanding a lot of different things, nearly all of which are things that are learned by doing, supplemented by textbooks explaining why they happen. Sound system engineering isn't something you can read a book about and then just do correctly. Indeed, but this is what I think will be lost on him because he's decided to play diletnte and dabble in audio and paint by number until he finds something else to play with. Some of us who have been doing this for decades find out as we go along that we're always learning new tricks, often based upon actual formal knowledge we picked up, and by doing it every day. And, to answer another of his questions, yes I've been known to pay for/barter for the services of an i.t. professional many times over the years, because i"m not a computer guy, I'm an audio guy, but meanwhile I stick close to those professionals while they're working with me and my systems, and learn from them. Often I'm paying them as much for the ability to teach me what I need to know to maintain my systems as to do the actual work. Regards, Richard -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. |
#72
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ... In that case, why should they even think that they can expect or achieve professional results? This IS rocket science and needs a rocket scientist to operate it properly. Sound reinforcement is "rocket science" now, I wonder how many artists Werner Von Braun did gigs for? :-) Trevor. |
#73
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Preventing/stopping feedback through microphone
Mxsmanic wrote:
Scott Dorsey writes: You wouldn't expect your church to hire a preacher whose only knowledge of the job is that he once read about Jesus in a magazine, would you? But thousands of churches bring on sound guys who have similar qualifications regarding audio.... That's because churches place their priorities on religion, not sound. Are there many sound engineering firms that hire cardinals to give them spiritual advice? God helps prevent feedback in churches. Or ought to. geoff |
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