[Mike Rivers]

On 3/29/2012 8:13 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:

What's professional about simply avoiding feedback?

Apparently some people can't do it, or don't bother to do
it. That seems pretty unprofessional to me.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Scott Dorsey]

Mxsmanic wrote:
Scott Dorsey writes:

You wouldn't expect your church to hire a preacher whose only knowledge of
the job is that he once read about Jesus in a magazine, would you? But
thousands of churches bring on sound guys who have similar qualifications
regarding audio....

That's because churches place their priorities on religion, not sound.

If you can't hear the minister, why even bother having him?
Mind you, the Quakers have a solution for that one.
And the Catholics have a standardized service so you don't need to
understand the words, you just memorize the responsoria.

Are there many sound engineering firms that hire cardinals to give them
spiritual advice?

Well, I worked with one who hired Rev. Horton Heat for that.
--Scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

On Thu 2012-Mar-29 17:26, Mike Rivers writes:
On 3/29/2012 4:45 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:

This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools, clubs,
etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and may
or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros.

In that case, why should they even think that they can
expect or achieve professional results? This IS rocket
science and needs a rocket scientist to operate it properly. Sound
reinforcement is not like turning on the TV set.

Right, and those places should at least have the system
installed by a competent professional. I don't know if i"d
call it rocket science, but there are indeed things that
need to be understood. A competent professional can set a
system up for such facilities so that its average operator
can use it without getting into trouble and enable it to do
its job. If you think your space needs sound
reinforcement so that the presentation can be heard by all
the patrons, congregation, student body, etc. then it
behooves you to have it properly installed and set up. IF
the folks with the purse strings are too cheap/stupid to
find such a person then they're not qualified for those
positions imho.

Regards,
Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[Anahata]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 02:13:07 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:


What's professional about simply avoiding feedback?

A lot of professionalism *is* about avoiding making simple mistakes.

A famous chef was asked the difference between a professional and an
amateur (in his field)
"a professional doesn't cut his finger when he's chopping the vegetables"

--
Anahata
-+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

Predictable in the sense that feedback is determnistic. Recreate the
scenario exactly, and it happens. Whether anybody in particular knows the
exact recipie for a given mode of feedback is always in question.

A competent PA operator will have checked the system out beforehand to
find
out specifically where the stability issues are. It's his job. He'll
have
had someone walk around stage with a microphone and found out where the
issues are, and at what frequencies, and to what degree.

That might work if you were able to do live sound with just one microphone
on at a time, and there was only one kind of microphone.

Now, just for fun have maybe a dozen or two dozen mics on at the same time.
Every acoustic instrument but the brass has to be miced because the
orchestra is inherently unbalanced.

Two to six of the mics are held by people who are walking around and
talking. Maybe 5-10 different makes and models are in play.

Have a room that is so live that the presence or non-presence of an audience
makes a difference for stability. The good news is that adding an audience
almost always stabilizes the system, that is unless someone walks off stage
with a live mic (or two) to pick up their comments which of course happens
as well. What happens if there is a poor turnout? At best you're in a
situation where a room that was stable when you shut the system down at the
end of a performance goes into feedback when you turn it back on for the
next rehearsal.

Finally, my comments about some sounds triggering feedback that would
not be noticeable without the sound. Practical experience says that any
sound source can do it, but the strongest influence of that kind I've ever
worked with is a pipe organ.

Yup, doing live sound in a HOW is very easy... until you try it! ;-)

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Richard Webb writes:

I would agree, and this is one of the tasks that is always
required when I set up a system. iF, for a conference or
convention there will be microphones placed anywhere than a
"stage" or front area known locations that will be problems
are found as well, and either avoided, or the problem freqs
notched with eq if we must. IT's part of the job.

This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools, clubs,
etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and
may
or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros.

Not only that, but the HOW context presents a number of fairly unique errr,
opportunities that I just listed in another post.

One of the really nasty parts of HOW sound is that very few of them have
what one could recognize as a professional stage. I work in those rooms as
well, and there is no doubt that the classic design for a performance room
is just wonderful.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 3/29/2012 4:45 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:

This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools,
clubs,
etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and
may
or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros.

In that case, why should they even think that they can expect or achieve
professional results?

Because churches have a certain segment of people who are habitual
complainers, and people who are control freaks.

This IS rocket science and needs a rocket scientist to operate it
properly. Sound reinforcement is not like turning on the TV set.

One of the more rewarding events of my life was when some of the complainers
I live with decided to a rehearsal of their quartet without getting staff
support. They thought that they knew it all when it came to live sound based
on their high school experiences. They showed up and couldn't even turn the
system on. Didn't shut them up, though.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Mike Rivers writes:

In that case, why should they even think that they can
expect or achieve professional results?

What's professional about simply avoiding feedback?

You have to know at least a few things, like don't put the mics in front of
the speakers.

Of course, if you know what you are doing, you can put the mics in front of
the speakers and live to tell the story. ;-)

Well, sometimes. I guess I should that if you know what you are doing you
can make a system with mics in front of the speakers stable.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 3/29/2012 4:45 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:

This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools,
clubs,
etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and
may
or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros.

In that case, why should they even think that they can
expect or achieve professional results? This IS rocket
science and needs a rocket scientist to operate it properly.
Sound reinforcement is not like turning on the TV set.

You wouldn't expect your church to hire a preacher whose only knowledge of
the job is that he once read about Jesus in a magazine, would you?

If having a masters degree in Jesus was all it took to make a good preacher,
a lot of churches would be far better off.

But thousands of churches bring on sound guys who have similar
qualifications
regarding audio...

Sadly, true. And if they have someone who does know what they are doing,
good chance they will treat him like all he did was read that magazine,
based on their own reading of a magazine or less...

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Scott Dorsey writes:

You wouldn't expect your church to hire a preacher whose only knowledge
of
the job is that he once read about Jesus in a magazine, would you? But
thousands of churches bring on sound guys who have similar qualifications
regarding audio....

That's because churches place their priorities on religion, not sound.

Are there many sound engineering firms that hire cardinals to give them
spiritual advice?

Wrong church. The RC church, by virtue of their typically heavy reliance on
highly traditional forms of worship, are actually pretty simple from a sound
system requirements perspective. Not that many rise to the occasion.

It is the evangelical church that gets into forms of worship that can be
technically challenging. And many of the most successful of them (read
10,000s of attendees every weekend) have very good staff and rely on
consultants in reasonable ways.

Trouble is that the typical evangelical church has about 100 attendees, and
a yearly budget of maybe $200,000 or less. A good part of that $200k goes
into staff and paying off the mortgage. Most have stable/slowly declining
attendance figures so that there is no growth or attendee turnover to
promote change. Church lay leadership is hand-picked to be compatible with
the prevailing level of thought which lead to the stable/declining
attendance figures, as well.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

If you can't hear the minister, why even bother having him?

Good question, if understanding what is being said were truely important.

What highly popular american church denomination didn't even use the
language of the land for worship until the 1960s, but instead spoke in a
language that is not the vernacular in any part of he world today including
where it orginated?

The message is that for many attendees worship is not an intellecutual
experience that can be compared to many other parts of life. They go and get
their spiritual tickets punched, not knowing that there is no such ticket.

Mind you, the Quakers have a solution for that one.
And the Catholics have a standardized service so you don't need to
understand the words, you just memorize the responsoria.

Kinda.

Are there many sound engineering firms that hire cardinals to give them
spiritual advice?

Well, I worked with one who hired Rev. Horton Heat for that.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;-)

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:
Richard Webb writes:

I would agree, and this is one of the tasks that is always
required when I set up a system. iF, for a conference or
convention there will be microphones placed anywhere than a
"stage" or front area known locations that will be problems
are found as well, and either avoided, or the problem freqs
notched with eq if we must. IT's part of the job.

This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools, clubs,
etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and may
or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros.

Then they get what they pay for.
--scott

I bought an airplane but I can't afford a pilot, or flying lessons. But
I have a friend whose cousin's uncle was a cook in the Air Force, and
I'm going to ask him to fly me around.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

On 3/29/2012 4:45 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:

This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools, clubs,
etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and may
or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros.

In that case, why should they even think that they can
expect or achieve professional results? This IS rocket
science and needs a rocket scientist to operate it properly.
Sound reinforcement is not like turning on the TV set.

There is an astonishing amount of this lackadaisical assumption process
in the music club biz. I even run into guys (it's always a guy, and when
it isn't the operator always seems well informed) who've been doing it
for decades and still have not a clue.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

On 3/29/2012 8:13 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:

What's professional about simply avoiding feedback?

Apparently some people can't do it, or don't bother to do
it. That seems pretty unprofessional to me.

The guy is clueless about how to avoid feedback and then asks a perfect
troll question...

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:36:09 -0500, (hank alrich)
wrote:

Mike Rivers wrote:

On 3/29/2012 4:45 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:

This is all well and good but I'm thinking about churches, schools, clubs,
etc., that cannot afford full-time or even part-time sound engineers and may
or may not have systems that were originally designed by competent pros.

In that case, why should they even think that they can
expect or achieve professional results? This IS rocket
science and needs a rocket scientist to operate it properly.
Sound reinforcement is not like turning on the TV set.

There is an astonishing amount of this lackadaisical assumption process
in the music club biz. I even run into guys (it's always a guy, and when
it isn't the operator always seems well informed) who've been doing it
for decades and still have not a clue.

The main thing is always the room. If the room is mode-y and resonant,
you pretty much don't have a chance, particularly if the singer wants
to move around the stage. You have to back off the gain to suit the
worst position. If the venue has taken the trouble to get the
acoustics right, it can almost become easy.

d

[Mike Rivers]

On 3/30/2012 7:57 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:

One of the really nasty parts of HOW sound is that very few of them have
what one could recognize as a professional stage. I work in those rooms as
well, and there is no doubt that the classic design for a performance room
is just wonderful.

Those that have less than optimum facilities and no
competent system operators should simply be prepared to
accept either feedback or lower volume. You can't have
everything unless you put everything into it.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Mxsmanic]

hank alrich writes:

I bought an airplane but I can't afford a pilot, or flying lessons. But
I have a friend whose cousin's uncle was a cook in the Air Force, and
I'm going to ask him to fly me around.

How much do you pay for the computer professional who maintains your computer?

[William Sommerwerck]

How much do you pay for the computer professional
who maintains your computer?

When you are older, Mr Mxyzptlk, you will have more respect for the effort
it takes to master unfamiliar material, and why those with knowledge and
experience should not be expected to waste large amounts of time giving it
away to the lazy and unmotivated.

[Mike Rivers]

On 3/30/2012 8:45 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:

How much do you pay for the computer professional who maintains your computer?

I figure I'm worth about $100/hour to learn how to maintain
a computer. g


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Mxsmanic]

William Sommerwerck writes:

When you are older, Mr Mxyzptlk, you will have more respect for the effort
it takes to master unfamiliar material, and why those with knowledge and
experience should not be expected to waste large amounts of time giving it
away to the lazy and unmotivated.

I'm already older, and I recognize the service I render to others when I pass
on any knowledge I have to them, and I've developed the patience to do so even
if they seem to have difficulty learning. Then again, even when I was younger,
I knew better than to fritter away my time in sophomoric personal attacks on
others.

[Mxsmanic]

Mike Rivers writes:

I figure I'm worth about $100/hour to learn how to maintain
a computer.

My point is that you cannot complain about others being unwilling to hire
expensive professionals in your own field if you do not do the same for other
fields.

While some here say that it's necessary to hire a professional in order to do
audio right, I rather doubt that they are hiring IT professionals to build and
maintain their computers, or electronic engineers to set up their TV sets, or
nutritionists to select what they'll have for dinner.

[hank alrich]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

How much do you pay for the computer professional
who maintains your computer?

When you are older, Mr Mxyzptlk, you will have more respect for the effort
it takes to master unfamiliar material, and why those with knowledge and
experience should not be expected to waste large amounts of time giving it
away to the lazy and unmotivated.

Uh oh... Now he's getting feedback...

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[William Sommerwerck]

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck writes:

When you are older, Mr Mxyzptlk, you will have more respect for the
effort
it takes to master unfamiliar material, and why those with knowledge and
experience should not be expected to waste large amounts of time giving
it away to the lazy and unmotivated.

I'm already older, and I recognize the service I render to others when I
pass
on any knowledge I have to them, and I've developed the patience to do so
even if they seem to have difficulty learning. Then again, even when I was
younger, I knew better than to fritter away my time in sophomoric personal
attacks on others.

You certainly do an excellent job of testing the patience of those in this
group.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Jeff Henig" wrote in message
...
"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

How much do you pay for the computer professional
who maintains your computer?

When you are older, Mr Mxyzptlk, you will have more respect for
the effort it takes to master unfamiliar material, and why those with
knowledge and experience should not be expected to waste large
amounts of time giving it away to the lazy and unmotivated.

+1 for the DC Comics reference!

In case anyone's interested... I'm finally installing a router. (This was
provoked by the purchase of a notebook with wireless capabilities.) Though
Comcast will step me through the setup at no charge (which, technically, has
been paid for by the cost of my Internet service), I'm studying the
manufacturer's user manual to get an understanding of the settings. I also
intend to go through the automated setup before calling Comcast.

To be perfectly honest, this is not just out of respect for whomever at
Comcast will be helping. I don't like looking completely ignorant about
something. Especially when I can read a book on the subject.

I recently called a company to get specialized information. I apologized to
the person for possibly wasting his time, and he thanked me for recognizing
that I might be interfering with is work. We had a friendly talk.

[Mike Rivers]

On 3/30/2012 10:47 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:

My point is that you cannot complain about others being unwilling to hire
expensive professionals in your own field if you do not do the same for other
fields.

While some here say that it's necessary to hire a professional in order to do
audio right, I rather doubt that they are hiring IT professionals to build and
maintain their computers, or electronic engineers to set up their TV sets, or
nutritionists to select what they'll have for dinner.

The thing is that there are specific questions one can ask
when it comes to maintaining a computer, and when one asks
specific questions in the right places, one can get answers,
usually given in good faith. But "how to stop feedback" is a
very general question and the answer requires understanding
a lot of different things, nearly all of which are things
that are learned by doing, supplemented by textbooks
explaining why they happen. Sound system engineering isn't
something you can read a book about and then just do correctly.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[None]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 3/30/2012 10:47 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:

My point is that you cannot complain about others being unwilling to hire
expensive professionals in your own field if you do not do the same for
other
fields.

While some here say that it's necessary to hire a professional in order
to do
audio right, I rather doubt that they are hiring IT professionals to
build and
maintain their computers, or electronic engineers to set up their TV
sets, or
nutritionists to select what they'll have for dinner.

The thing is that there are specific questions one can ask when it comes
to maintaining a computer, and when one asks specific questions in the
right places, one can get answers, usually given in good faith. But "how
to stop feedback" is a very general question and the answer requires
understanding a lot of different things, nearly all of which are things
that are learned by doing, supplemented by textbooks explaining why they
happen. Sound system engineering isn't something you can read a book about
and then just do correctly.

In this case, Mrs. Maniac isn't even willing to read the book.

[Scott Dorsey]

Mxsmanic wrote:
Mike Rivers writes:

I figure I'm worth about $100/hour to learn how to maintain
a computer.

My point is that you cannot complain about others being unwilling to hire
expensive professionals in your own field if you do not do the same for other
fields.

But we do. And some of us complain about poor system administration just
as much as we do poor audio.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mxsmanic]

William Sommerwerck writes:

You certainly do an excellent job of testing the patience of those in this
group.

That depends on how bright they are.

[Mxsmanic]

Mike Rivers writes:

The thing is that there are specific questions one can ask
when it comes to maintaining a computer, and when one asks
specific questions in the right places, one can get answers,
usually given in good faith. But "how to stop feedback" is a
very general question and the answer requires understanding
a lot of different things, nearly all of which are things
that are learned by doing, supplemented by textbooks
explaining why they happen.

Similarly general questions can be asked about computers, and someone who
knows computers can answer them. The answer may be longer or shorter than it
would be for a very specific question; the correlation between generality of a
question and the complexity of the answer is not strong.

[Mxsmanic]

None writes:

In this case, Mrs. Maniac isn't even willing to read the book.

These days I have no money for books (or for glasses, which I'd probably need
to read the books).

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

On Sat 2012-Mar-31 06:05, Mike Rivers writes:

On 3/30/2012 10:47 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:

My point is that you cannot complain about others being unwilling to hire
expensive professionals in your own field if you do not do the same for other
fields.

While some here say that it's necessary to hire a professional in order to do
audio right, I rather doubt that they are hiring IT professionals to build and
maintain their computers, or electronic engineers to set up their TV sets, or
nutritionists to select what they'll have for dinner.

IN fact, the one place where I somewhat agree with him is
most JOe sixpack types should be paying a professional to
maintain their computers, especially if they're operating on always connected broadband networks, because obviously with
all the malware etc. out there what's under the hood is too
sophisticated for jOe sixpack to understand and dela with
appropriately.

The thing is that there are specific questions one can ask
when it comes to maintaining a computer, and when one asks
specific questions in the right places, one can get answers,
usually given in good faith. But "how to stop feedback" is a very
general question and the answer requires understanding a lot of
different things, nearly all of which are things
that are learned by doing, supplemented by textbooks
explaining why they happen. Sound system engineering isn't
something you can read a book about and then just do correctly.

Indeed, but this is what I think will be lost on him because he's decided to play diletnte and dabble in audio and paint
by number until he finds something else to play with. Some
of us who have been doing this for decades find out as we go along that we're always learning new tricks, often based
upon actual formal knowledge we picked up, and by doing it
every day.

And, to answer another of his questions, yes I've been known to pay for/barter for the services of an i.t. professional
many times over the years, because i"m not a computer guy,
I'm an audio guy, but meanwhile I stick close to those
professionals while they're working with me and my systems,
and learn from them. Often I'm paying them as much for the
ability to teach me what I need to know to maintain my
systems as to do the actual work.



Regards,
Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[Trevor]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
In that case, why should they even think that they can expect or achieve
professional results? This IS rocket science and needs a rocket scientist
to operate it properly.

Sound reinforcement is "rocket science" now, I wonder how many artists
Werner Von Braun did gigs for? :-)

Trevor.

[geoff]

Mxsmanic wrote:
Scott Dorsey writes:

You wouldn't expect your church to hire a preacher whose only
knowledge of the job is that he once read about Jesus in a magazine,
would you? But thousands of churches bring on sound guys who have
similar qualifications regarding audio....

That's because churches place their priorities on religion, not sound.

Are there many sound engineering firms that hire cardinals to give
them spiritual advice?

God helps prevent feedback in churches. Or ought to.

geoff