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#1
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
Anybody have any thoughts on a good external DAC?
I'm used to 'integrated' units so this is a new idea for me. Something in the $500 range would be nice, if possible. Many thanks in advance, Greg. -- Greg Grainger grainger(at)vex.net 'What a world of gammon and spinnage it is, though, ain't it!' - Miss Mowcher |
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#2
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
On Apr 16, 11:21=A0am, (Greg Grainger) wrote:
Anybody have any thoughts on a good external DAC? I'm used to 'integrated' units so this is a new idea for me. Why do you want to use an external DAC? Modern low-cost DAC chips commonly used in competently designed CD players provide outstanding sound quality. Something in the $500 range would be nice, if possible. You can get a very good CD player with great converters for half this price or even less. |
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#3
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:58:53 -0700, jwvm wrote
(in article ): On Apr 16, 11:21=A0am, (Greg Grainger) wrote: Anybody have any thoughts on a good external DAC? I'm used to 'integrated' units so this is a new idea for me. Why do you want to use an external DAC? Modern low-cost DAC chips commonly used in competently designed CD players provide outstanding sound quality. Perhaps he wants to do a music server from his computer using something like an Apple Airport Express. Something in the $500 range would be nice, if possible. You can get a very good CD player with great converters for half this price or even less. Not if he wants to do a server. For instance I have an Apple TV connected to my television, but I have the optical digital output running over to my outboard DAC connected to my stereo via a 25 foot-long TOSLINK cable. I can access my iTunes music library (lossless compression) directly that way and can listen to streaming internet radio as well, all up-converted to 24-bit/96 Khz! Couldn't do that without an outboard DAC, or a CD player that has external inputs for outside audio sources, and there aren't too many of those in any price range |
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#4
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
On Apr 16, 8:32=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:58:53 -0700, jwvm wrote (in article ): On Apr 16, 11:21=3DA0am, (Greg Grainger) wrote: Anybody have any thoughts on a good external DAC? I'm used to 'integrated' units so this is a new idea for me. Why do you want to use an external DAC? Modern low-cost DAC chips commonly used in competently designed CD players provide outstanding sound quality. Perhaps he wants to do a music server from his computer using something l= ike an Apple Airport Express. Something in the $500 range would be nice, if possible. You can get a very good CD player with great converters for half this price or even less. Not if he wants to do a server. For instance I have an Apple TV connected= to my television, but I have the optical digital output running over to my outboard DAC connected to my stereo via a 25 foot-long TOSLINK cable. I c= an access my iTunes music library (lossless compression) directly that way a= nd can listen to streaming internet radio as well, all up-converted to 24-bi= t/96 Khz! Couldn't do that without an outboard DAC, or a CD player that has external inputs for outside audio sources, and there aren't too many of t= hose in any price range If that is the case, a modern receiver will do the job. Again, you can get decent receivers for well under $500. |
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#5
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
"jwvm" wrote in message
On Apr 16, 8:32=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote: Not if he wants to do a server. For instance I have an Apple TV connected= to my television, but I have the optical digital output running over to my outboard DAC connected to my stereo via a 25 foot-long TOSLINK cable. I c= an access my iTunes music library (lossless compression) directly that way a= nd can listen to streaming internet radio as well, all up-converted to 24-bi= t/96 Khz! Couldn't do that without an outboard DAC, or a CD player that has external inputs for outside audio sources, and there aren't too many of t= hose in any price range If that is the case, a modern receiver will do the job. Again, you can get decent receivers for well under $500. I think this is an excellent point. The *right* place for the DAC is as close to the loudspeakers as possible. In this day and age, this is often the receiver. Technically speaking, the analog connection from the player to the DAC is a major source of measurable contamination of the signal. |
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#6
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
about a decade ago, I bought a Martin Logan external DAC - model 360S - it
was the absolute best that I listened to (and for the double blind fanatics - no, I did not do double blind testing - If I can't hear a difference, I can't hear a difference - I wasn't looking for subtleties) --- at the time I thought it was worth the 6 grand I paid for it. Given the way prices for used equipment of this type go, I would not be at all surprised if you could find one for your price - if you can, I think you would be quite happy with it - the only down side is that it uses a lot of power and the "off" switch just turns off the display - I added a real on/off switch and saved a lot on my electric bill. "Greg Grainger" wrote in message ... Anybody have any thoughts on a good external DAC? I'm used to 'integrated' units so this is a new idea for me. Something in the $500 range would be nice, if possible. Many thanks in advance, Greg. -- Greg Grainger grainger(at)vex.net 'What a world of gammon and spinnage it is, though, ain't it!' - Miss Mowcher |
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#7
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 05:11:52 -0700, jwvm wrote
(in article ): On Apr 16, 8:32=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote: On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:58:53 -0700, jwvm wrote (in article ): On Apr 16, 11:21=3DA0am, (Greg Grainger) wrote: Anybody have any thoughts on a good external DAC? I'm used to 'integrated' units so this is a new idea for me. Why do you want to use an external DAC? Modern low-cost DAC chips commonly used in competently designed CD players provide outstanding sound quality. Perhaps he wants to do a music server from his computer using something l= ike an Apple Airport Express. Something in the $500 range would be nice, if possible. You can get a very good CD player with great converters for half this price or even less. Not if he wants to do a server. For instance I have an Apple TV connected= to my television, but I have the optical digital output running over to my outboard DAC connected to my stereo via a 25 foot-long TOSLINK cable. I c= an access my iTunes music library (lossless compression) directly that way a= nd can listen to streaming internet radio as well, all up-converted to 24-bi= t/96 Khz! Couldn't do that without an outboard DAC, or a CD player that has external inputs for outside audio sources, and there aren't too many of t= hose in any price range If that is the case, a modern receiver will do the job. Again, you can get decent receivers for well under $500. Again, what if you already have an amp and preamp? Why would you want to buy a receiver? You can get the excellent Beresford TC-7510 (24/96) or TC-7520 (same with USB interface) DAC for around $120 on E-Bay. |
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#8
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
Benchmark DAC1
-- John the West Ham fan "Greg Grainger" wrote in message ... Anybody have any thoughts on a good external DAC? I'm used to 'integrated' units so this is a new idea for me. Something in the $500 range would be nice, if possible. Many thanks in advance, Greg. -- Greg Grainger grainger(at)vex.net 'What a world of gammon and spinnage it is, though, ain't it!' - Miss Mowcher |
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#9
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
"ScottW" wrote in message
On Apr 17, 7:36 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "jwvm" wrote in message On Apr 16, 8:32=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote: Not if he wants to do a server. For instance I have an Apple TV connected= to my television, but I have the optical digital output running over to my outboard DAC connected to my stereo via a 25 foot-long TOSLINK cable. I c= an access my iTunes music library (lossless compression) directly that way a= nd can listen to streaming internet radio as well, all up-converted to 24-bi= t/96 Khz! Couldn't do that without an outboard DAC, or a CD player that has external inputs for outside audio sources, and there aren't too many of t= hose in any price range If that is the case, a modern receiver will do the job. Again, you can get decent receivers for well under $500. I think this is an excellent point. The *right* place for the DAC is as close to the loudspeakers as possible. In this day and age, this is often the receiver. Technically speaking, the analog connection from the player to the DAC is a major source of measurable contamination of the signal. Don't you mean DAC to amp? I would prefer that the conversion to analog be made as close to the loudspeaker diaphragm as possible. Unfortunately actual digital drive loudspeakers do not seem to be possible yet. There are such things as digital transducers whose output is air pressure variations, but they lack resolution and frequency response. |
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#10
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:36:53 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): "jwvm" wrote in message On Apr 16, 8:32=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote: Not if he wants to do a server. For instance I have an Apple TV connected= to my television, but I have the optical digital output running over to my outboard DAC connected to my stereo via a 25 foot-long TOSLINK cable. I c= an access my iTunes music library (lossless compression) directly that way a= nd can listen to streaming internet radio as well, all up-converted to 24-bi= t/96 Khz! Couldn't do that without an outboard DAC, or a CD player that has external inputs for outside audio sources, and there aren't too many of t= hose in any price range If that is the case, a modern receiver will do the job. Again, you can get decent receivers for well under $500. I think this is an excellent point. The *right* place for the DAC is as close to the loudspeakers as possible. In this day and age, this is often the receiver. Technically speaking, the analog connection from the player to the DAC is a major source of measurable contamination of the signal. How so? If we agree that interconnects are merely conductors, and that conductors have no sound of their own, then how would the interconnect between a a DAC and a pre-amp or amplifier be any more or less of a source of measurable contamination than would be, say, an interconnect from a CD player, or an FM tuner, or an outboard phono preamp, or any other source component that you could name? IOW, if cables add/subtract nothing from the signal, as you (and I) assert, and as countless D-B tests have confirmed, how is the analog link from the DAC any different? |
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#11
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 14:00:28 -0700, housetrained wrote
(in article ): Benchmark DAC1 I'd like to know where you found a Benchmark DAC1 for $500! Best prices I've seen are all over $900 for the DAC1 and over $1200 for the DAC1 with USB. |
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#12
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
"Greg Grainger" wrote in message
... Anybody have any thoughts on a good external DAC? I'm used to 'integrated' units so this is a new idea for me. Something in the $500 range would be nice, if possible. Many thanks in advance, Greg. -- Greg Grainger grainger(at)vex.net 'What a world of gammon and spinnage it is, though, ain't it!' - Miss Mowcher Benchmark DAC1 -- John the West Ham fan |
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#13
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
"Audio Empire" wrote in message
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:36:53 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote (in article ): "jwvm" wrote in message On Apr 16, 8:32=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote: Not if he wants to do a server. For instance I have an Apple TV connected= to my television, but I have the optical digital output running over to my outboard DAC connected to my stereo via a 25 foot-long TOSLINK cable. I c= an access my iTunes music library (lossless compression) directly that way a= nd can listen to streaming internet radio as well, all up-converted to 24-bi= t/96 Khz! Couldn't do that without an outboard DAC, or a CD player that has external inputs for outside audio sources, and there aren't too many of t= hose in any price range If that is the case, a modern receiver will do the job. Again, you can get decent receivers for well under $500. I think this is an excellent point. The *right* place for the DAC is as close to the loudspeakers as possible. In this day and age, this is often the receiver. Technically speaking, the analog connection from the player to the DAC is a major source of measurable contamination of the signal. How so? If we agree that interconnects are merely conductors, and that conductors have no sound of their own, then how would the interconnect between a a DAC and a pre-amp or amplifier be any more or less of a source of measurable contamination than would be, say, an interconnect from a CD player, or an FM tuner, or an outboard phono preamp, or any other source component that you could name? Right, they are all equally susceptible to hum and noise. However, the signals from analog sources such as a FM tuner or an outboard phono preamp are quite a bit dirtier all by themselves. It is highly unlikely that those analog sources will provide program material with 85 dB dynamic range. Such a thing is not only possible, but observable from a a number of commercial CDs of musical performances. |
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#14
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
"Greg Grainger" wrote in message
... Anybody have any thoughts on a good external DAC? I'm used to 'integrated' units so this is a new idea for me. Something in the $500 range would be nice, if possible. I love my 20 year old Meridian 203 and would recommend it to anybody. They go for about £100 on eBay and will hold there value for ever. |
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#15
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 05:16:33 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): "Audio Empire" wrote in message On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:36:53 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote (in article ): "jwvm" wrote in message On Apr 16, 8:32=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote: Not if he wants to do a server. For instance I have an Apple TV connected= to my television, but I have the optical digital output running over to my outboard DAC connected to my stereo via a 25 foot-long TOSLINK cable. I c= an access my iTunes music library (lossless compression) directly that way a= nd can listen to streaming internet radio as well, all up-converted to 24-bi= t/96 Khz! Couldn't do that without an outboard DAC, or a CD player that has external inputs for outside audio sources, and there aren't too many of t= hose in any price range If that is the case, a modern receiver will do the job. Again, you can get decent receivers for well under $500. I think this is an excellent point. The *right* place for the DAC is as close to the loudspeakers as possible. In this day and age, this is often the receiver. Technically speaking, the analog connection from the player to the DAC is a major source of measurable contamination of the signal. How so? If we agree that interconnects are merely conductors, and that conductors have no sound of their own, then how would the interconnect between a a DAC and a pre-amp or amplifier be any more or less of a source of measurable contamination than would be, say, an interconnect from a CD player, or an FM tuner, or an outboard phono preamp, or any other source component that you could name? Right, they are all equally susceptible to hum and noise. OK, I get you now. "NO" interconnect is always better than "ANY" interconnect. |
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#16
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
"Audio Empire" wrote in message
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 05:16:33 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote (in article ): "Audio Empire" wrote in message On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:36:53 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote (in article ): "jwvm" wrote in message On Apr 16, 8:32=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote: Not if he wants to do a server. For instance I have an Apple TV connected= to my television, but I have the optical digital output running over to my outboard DAC connected to my stereo via a 25 foot-long TOSLINK cable. I c= an access my iTunes music library (lossless compression) directly that way a= nd can listen to streaming internet radio as well, all up-converted to 24-bi= t/96 Khz! Couldn't do that without an outboard DAC, or a CD player that has external inputs for outside audio sources, and there aren't too many of t= hose in any price range If that is the case, a modern receiver will do the job. Again, you can get decent receivers for well under $500. I think this is an excellent point. The *right* place for the DAC is as close to the loudspeakers as possible. In this day and age, this is often the receiver. Technically speaking, the analog connection from the player to the DAC is a major source of measurable contamination of the signal. How so? If we agree that interconnects are merely conductors, and that conductors have no sound of their own, then how would the interconnect between a a DAC and a pre-amp or amplifier be any more or less of a source of measurable contamination than would be, say, an interconnect from a CD player, or an FM tuner, or an outboard phono preamp, or any other source component that you could name? Right, they are all equally susceptible to hum and noise. OK, I get you now. "NO" interconnect is always better than "ANY" interconnect. Actually the problem isn't the interconnect - its the fact that we have an analog circuit that is spread over two different audio components, two different chassis. When I was testing consumer digital players for pcavtech, I found that an unbalanced analog link running with peak voltages in the 2 volt range limited dynamic range down into high 80 low 90 dB range. If I did my measurement with a balanced input using the chassis of the player as a reference as well as the signal ground, the measurements would improve by 5-10 dB. |
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#17
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
On Apr 17, 7:03=A0pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message On Apr 17, 7:36 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "jwvm" wrote in message On Apr 16, 8:32=3DA0pm, Audio Empire wrote: Not if he wants to do a server. For instance I have an Apple TV connected=3D to my television, but I have the optical digital output running over to my outboard DAC connected to my stereo via a 25 foot-long TOSLINK cable. I c=3D an access my iTunes music library (lossless compression) directly that way a=3D nd can listen to streaming internet radio as well, all up-converted to 24-bi=3D t/96 Khz! Couldn't do that without an outboard DAC, or a CD player that has external inputs for outside audio sources, and there aren't too many of t=3D hose in any price range If that is the case, a modern receiver will do the job. Again, you can get decent receivers for well under $500. I think this is an excellent point. The *right* place for the DAC is as close to the loudspeakers as possible. In this day and age, this is often the receiver. Technically speaking, the analog connection from the player to the DAC is a major source of measurable contamination of the signal. Don't you mean DAC to amp? I would prefer that the conversion to analog be made as close to the loudspeaker diaphragm as possible. Unfortunately actual digital drive loudspeakers do not seem to be possible yet. There are such things as digital transducers whose output is air pressure variations, but they lac= k resolution and frequency response.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - "There are such things as digital transducers whose output is air pressure variations," Most people know them as speakers ! |
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#18
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:43:08 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ): "Audio Empire" wrote in message On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 05:16:33 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote (in article ): "Audio Empire" wrote in message On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 07:36:53 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote (in article ): [ Snipped for excess quotation. -- dsr ] "jwvm" wrote in message I think this is an excellent point. The *right* place for the DAC is as close to the loudspeakers as possible. In this day and age, this is often the receiver. Technically speaking, the analog connection from the player to the DAC is a major source of measurable contamination of the signal. How so? If we agree that interconnects are merely conductors, and that conductors have no sound of their own, then how would the interconnect between a a DAC and a pre-amp or amplifier be any more or less of a source of measurable contamination than would be, say, an interconnect from a CD player, or an FM tuner, or an outboard phono preamp, or any other source component that you could name? Right, they are all equally susceptible to hum and noise. OK, I get you now. "NO" interconnect is always better than "ANY" interconnect. Actually the problem isn't the interconnect - its the fact that we have an analog circuit that is spread over two different audio components, two different chassis. When I was testing consumer digital players for pcavtech, I found that an unbalanced analog link running with peak voltages in the 2 volt range limited dynamic range down into high 80 low 90 dB range. If I did my measurement with a balanced input using the chassis of the player as a reference as well as the signal ground, the measurements would improve by 5-10 dB. That's interesting. What could account for this? The only thing I can come up with the is output driver for the CD player, but this doesn't seem logical..?? |
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#19
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
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#21
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
"Audio Empire" wrote in message
Actually the problem isn't the interconnect - its the fact that we have an analog circuit that is spread over two different audio components, two different chassis. When I was testing consumer digital players for pcavtech, I found that an unbalanced analog link running with peak voltages in the 2 volt range limited dynamic range down into high 80 low 90 dB range. If I did my measurement with a balanced input using the chassis of the player as a reference as well as the signal ground, the measurements would improve by 5-10 dB. That's interesting. What could account for this? Problems relating to interconnecting chassis that are essentially floating with respect to each other and earth ground. If you measure the voltage or current between an ungrounded chassis and actual earth ground, you get voltages, currents and signals that are all over the map. The shield of the interconnect normally connects these together, but it has a finite impedance, so there are differences in ground potential at each end. If earth ground every chassis, then you create ground loops. Just another reason why balanced I/O is such a problem solver if truely high performance is your goal. Failing that, just pass digital signals around. Oer, put everything you need into one box. |
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#22
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:21:01 +0000, Greg Grainger wrote:
Anybody have any thoughts on a good external DAC? I'm used to 'integrated' units so this is a new idea for me. =20 Something in the $500 range would be nice, if possible. =20 I have had very good luck with the e-mu 0404 USB. It accepts optical and=20 electrical digital signals, and emits both as well as an analog signal. I= =20 am also pleased with the Behringer Ultracurve and Ultradrive. As Arny=20 says, having the multiple DACs close to the speaker (in this case, after=20 the crossover) gives excellent results.=20 |
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#23
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
"sparky" wrote in message
On Apr 17, 7:03=A0pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "ScottW" wrote in message On Apr 17, 7:36 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "jwvm" wrote in message On Apr 16, 8:32=3DA0pm, Audio Empire wrote: Not if he wants to do a server. For instance I have an Apple TV connected=3D to my television, but I have the optical digital output running over to my outboard DAC connected to my stereo via a 25 foot-long TOSLINK cable. I c=3D an access my iTunes music library (lossless compression) directly that way a=3D nd can listen to streaming internet radio as well, all up-converted to 24-bi=3D t/96 Khz! Couldn't do that without an outboard DAC, or a CD player that has external inputs for outside audio sources, and there aren't too many of t=3D hose in any price range If that is the case, a modern receiver will do the job. Again, you can get decent receivers for well under $500. I think this is an excellent point. The *right* place for the DAC is as close to the loudspeakers as possible. In this day and age, this is often the receiver. Technically speaking, the analog connection from the player to the DAC is a major source of measurable contamination of the signal. Don't you mean DAC to amp? I would prefer that the conversion to analog be made as close to the loudspeaker diaphragm as possible. Unfortunately actual digital drive loudspeakers do not seem to be possible yet. There are such things as digital transducers whose output is air pressure variations, but they lac= k resolution and frequency response.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - "There are such things as digital transducers whose output is air pressure variations," Most people know them as speakers ! Except these aren't speakers. The ones I'm most familiar with are exhaust gas circulation valves. They are composed of a number of ports, whose size is a binary sequence. |
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#24
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
"Audio Empire" wrote in message
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:50:37 -0700, John Stone wrote (in article ): On 4/20/10 1:41 PM, in article , "Audio Empire" wrote: On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 06:43:08 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote (in article ): Actually the problem isn't the interconnect - its the fact that we have an analog circuit that is spread over two different audio components, two different chassis. When I was testing consumer digital players for pcavtech, I found that an unbalanced analog link running with peak voltages in the 2 volt range limited dynamic range down into high 80 low 90 dB range. If I did my measurement with a balanced input using the chassis of the player as a reference as well as the signal ground, the measurements would improve by 5-10 dB. That's interesting. What could account for this? The only thing I can come up with the is output driver for the CD player, but this doesn't seem logical..?? I would guess this would be a simple matter of a ground loop problem. "simple ground loop" is an oxymoron! ;-) Ground loops generally cause hum. I don't recall Arnie mentioning hum. Hum is only part of the problem. |
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#25
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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Good external DAC?
On 4/21/2010 9:06 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
That's interesting. What could account for this? Problems relating to interconnecting chassis that are essentially floating with respect to each other and earth ground. If you measure the voltage or current between an ungrounded chassis and actual earth ground, you get voltages, currents and signals that are all over the map. The shield of the interconnect normally connects these together, but it has a finite impedance, so there are differences in ground potential at each end. If earth ground every chassis, then you create ground loops. And its not just hum (or buzz). It can be lots of things. For example, I live 1/4 mile from a 20,000 watt AM station. One gets gigantic potential differences between boxes at 1.4 MHZ. And did I mention the 50 kW of FM from the same tower? They can cause all sorts of nonlinear problems. I solved everything by powering absolutely everything off one high-current wall outlet and connecting all the chassis together with interconnects made of CATV aluminum wrapped RG-59 cables. Until I got cable instead of Dish. Then all Hell broke loose since it had a different ground! I had to make a special junction cable up that used both center conductor and shield connected at one point through 300pF tiniest size chip capacitors, the shield having 6 in parallel. This removed the audio problems but let both cable directions pass down to whatever seems to be actually needed (5MHZ????) Doug McDonald |
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