I'm a newbie to the group, so I might have missed this if it was
addressed before... I have a Technics 1200 turntable that does not
have a pre-amp. It is connected to a phono jack on a JVC amplifier.
When recording to either the tape deck or the CD recorder, the music
recorded from the turntable is much lower in volume than a CD. I've
heard (don't know if it's true or not) that getting a pre-amp would
solve the problem. Can a pre-amp be purchased and connected inline
between the turntable and the amplifier? The turntable wasn't cheap
and I'm not in the market to upgrade it.

Does anyone have any ideas? Thank you.
JoAnn :-)

On 19 Oct 2005 15:48:01 -0700, "
wrote:

I'm a newbie to the group, so I might have missed this if it was
addressed before... I have a Technics 1200 turntable that does not
have a pre-amp. It is connected to a phono jack on a JVC amplifier.
When recording to either the tape deck or the CD recorder, the music
recorded from the turntable is much lower in volume than a CD. I've
heard (don't know if it's true or not) that getting a pre-amp would
solve the problem. Can a pre-amp be purchased and connected inline
between the turntable and the amplifier? The turntable wasn't cheap
and I'm not in the market to upgrade it.

Does anyone have any ideas? Thank you.

Unless the JVC has a jack specifically labelled "phono," you must add
an external phono preamp between turntable and amp. These can be
bought at prices from about $20 (RadioShack, MCM, etc) up to many
thou$and$. Google "phono preamp" and see what's out there.

Kal

The jack is specifically labeled PHONO and there is a ground for the
turntable as well. I talked to radio shack about it once and they told
me that I had to buy this smaller amplifier (that they called a preamp)
and connect it between the turntable and the JVC amplifier. I did that
and the results were clearly wrong. Can a preamp be connected inline
between the turntable and the amplifier to boost the signal?

wrote:
I'm a newbie to the group, so I might have missed this if it was
addressed before... I have a Technics 1200 turntable that does not
have a pre-amp. It is connected to a phono jack on a JVC amplifier.
When recording to either the tape deck or the CD recorder, the music
recorded from the turntable is much lower in volume than a CD. I've
heard (don't know if it's true or not) that getting a pre-amp would
solve the problem. Can a pre-amp be purchased and connected inline
between the turntable and the amplifier? The turntable wasn't cheap
and I'm not in the market to upgrade it.

Does anyone have any ideas? Thank you.
JoAnn :-)

You do not need a phono pre-amp, because it is built into your JVC, and
it probably would not make much of a difference in the volume level
anyway. It's quite common for turntables, even after pre-amplification,
to still be lower in level than standard line-level inputs.

Your problem isn't a problem at all. Just turn up the input levels on
your tape deck, and you'll be fine.

bob

Kalman Rubinson wrote:
On 19 Oct 2005 15:48:01 -0700, "
wrote:
Unless the JVC has a jack specifically labelled "phono," you must add
an external phono preamp between turntable and amp. These can be
bought at prices from about $20 (RadioShack, MCM, etc) up to many
thou$and$. Google "phono preamp" and see what's out there.

If the sound is very quiet and has very strong high frequencies
and no low frequencies, then you need an outboard phono pre-amp.

If the sound is normal, but a little quiet, then you don't
have a problem. Blame the people who use lots of compression
on CDs and radio for how loud they sound compared to your
turntable.

Hope this helps,

Peter.
--

jbicking wrote ...
I'm a newbie to the group, so I might have missed this if it was
addressed before... I have a Technics 1200 turntable that does not
have a pre-amp. It is connected to a phono jack on a JVC amplifier.

What was the name of this input? If it was not "Phono" then
it was likely a line-level input and I'm surprised you were able
to hear *anything* out of it.

When recording to either the tape deck or the CD recorder, the music
recorded from the turntable is much lower in volume than a CD. I've
heard (don't know if it's true or not) that getting a pre-amp would
solve the problem.

If you don't have an input specifically designed for "Phono"
then, indeed, an RIAA phono preamp is required.

Can a pre-amp be purchased and connected inline
between the turntable and the amplifier? The turntable wasn't cheap
and I'm not in the market to upgrade it.

Yes. There are several sources of standalone phono preamps.
You can buy one at Radio Shack (# 42-2825)

The jack is specifically labeled PHONO and there is a ground for the
turntable as well. *I talked to radio shack about it once and they told

me that I had to buy this smaller amplifier (that they called a preamp)

and connect it between the turntable and the JVC amplifier. *I did that

and the results were clearly wrong. *Can a preamp be connected inline
between the turntable and the amplifier to boost the signal?

On 19 Oct 2005 16:27:45 -0700, "
wrote:

The jack is specifically labeled PHONO and there is a ground for the
turntable as well. I talked to radio shack about it once and they told
me that I had to buy this smaller amplifier (that they called a preamp)
and connect it between the turntable and the JVC amplifier. I did that
and the results were clearly wrong. Can a preamp be connected inline
between the turntable and the amplifier to boost the signal?

In that case, the output of the phono cartridge you have (what model
is it?) is too low for the gain/amplification of the phono stage.
This is hard to correct without changing the cartridge or the amp.
Or you can simply live with the discrepancy and just turn up the phono
when you need to.

Kal

When recording to either the tape deck or the CD recorder, the music
recorded from the turntable is much lower in volume than a CD.

Not uncommon; the output levels from consumer equipment are not very
well standardized. I'm told that some amps/recievers with digital
controls will let you program a volume offset depending on which input
you've selected, to compensate for this... but since volume also varies
from record to record and CD to CD, there are obvious limits to how far
this will get you.

Kalman Rubinson wrote:
On 19 Oct 2005 16:27:45 -0700, "
wrote:

The jack is specifically labeled PHONO and there is a ground for the
turntable as well. I talked to radio shack about it once and they told
me that I had to buy this smaller amplifier (that they called a preamp)
and connect it between the turntable and the JVC amplifier. I did that
and the results were clearly wrong. Can a preamp be connected inline
between the turntable and the amplifier to boost the signal?

In that case, the output of the phono cartridge you have (what model
is it?) is too low for the gain/amplification of the phono stage.

I wouldn't be so sure of this. All she's said is that the output of the
turntable is lower than the output of her CD player when she records to
tape. That's fairly common. If she had to crank the volume *way* up
even to listen to the turntable, then I'd agree that there's a problem.


This is hard to correct without changing the cartridge or the amp.
Or you can simply live with the discrepancy and just turn up the phono
when you need to.

That's how I deal with it.

bob

"Peter Irwin" wrote in message
...
Kalman Rubinson wrote:
On 19 Oct 2005 15:48:01 -0700, "
wrote:
Unless the JVC has a jack specifically labelled "phono," you must add
an external phono preamp between turntable and amp. These can be
bought at prices from about $20 (RadioShack, MCM, etc) up to many
thou$and$. Google "phono preamp" and see what's out there.

If the sound is very quiet and has very strong high frequencies
and no low frequencies, then you need an outboard phono pre-amp.

If the sound is normal, but a little quiet, then you don't
have a problem. Blame the people who use lots of compression
on CDs and radio for how loud they sound compared to your
turntable.

Hope this helps,


Let me add to Peter's thoughts on this. If the sound seems normal, but is
quite low both when listening and when taping, then you probably have what
is called a "low-output moving coil cartridge" in the Technics. In that
case you need what used to be called a "headamp" or a "pre-preamp". This is
essentially a low-powered amp that boosts the signal to sufficient volume
for the preamp that is built into the "phono" input of your JVC to handle.
Probably today the best place to look would be on eBay. Look under the
headings "step-up transformer (a variation)", "pre-preamp", "headamp",
"moving-coil step up".

Good luck.

Harry

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:22:18 -0400, "Harry Lavo"
wrote:


"Peter Irwin" wrote in message
...
Kalman Rubinson wrote:
On 19 Oct 2005 15:48:01 -0700, "
wrote:
Unless the JVC has a jack specifically labelled "phono," you must add
an external phono preamp between turntable and amp. These can be
bought at prices from about $20 (RadioShack, MCM, etc) up to many
thou$and$. Google "phono preamp" and see what's out there.

If the sound is very quiet and has very strong high frequencies
and no low frequencies, then you need an outboard phono pre-amp.

If the sound is normal, but a little quiet, then you don't
have a problem. Blame the people who use lots of compression
on CDs and radio for how loud they sound compared to your
turntable.

Hope this helps,


Let me add to Peter's thoughts on this. If the sound seems normal, but is
quite low both when listening and when taping, then you probably have what
is called a "low-output moving coil cartridge" in the Technics. In that
case you need what used to be called a "headamp" or a "pre-preamp". This is
essentially a low-powered amp that boosts the signal to sufficient volume
for the preamp that is built into the "phono" input of your JVC to handle.
Probably today the best place to look would be on eBay. Look under the
headings "step-up transformer (a variation)", "pre-preamp", "headamp",
"moving-coil step up".

Mebbe but unlikely. That's why I asked him in my original reply what
cartridge was in the TT.

Kal

wrote in message
ups.com...
The jack is specifically labeled PHONO and there is a ground for the
turntable as well. I talked to radio shack about it once and they told
me that I had to buy this smaller amplifier (that they called a preamp)
and connect it between the turntable and the JVC amplifier. I did that
and the results were clearly wrong. Can a preamp be connected inline
between the turntable and the amplifier to boost the signal?

Maybe you have a MC (Movoing Coil) phono cartridge than requires a
transformer or additional low noise linear preamp before the phono preamp ?
As opposed to a MM (Moving Magnet) cartridge that goes straight to 'Phono'.

Or maybe you are comparing perceived audio levels on highly-compressed music
as on many recent CD releases.

geoff

wrote in message
oups.com...
The jack is specifically labeled PHONO and there is a ground for the
turntable as well. I talked to radio shack about it once and they told

me that I had to buy this smaller amplifier (that they called a preamp)

and connect it between the turntable and the JVC amplifier. I did that

and the results were clearly wrong. Can a preamp be connected inline
between the turntable and the amplifier to boost the signal?

Maybe you tried an additional phono preamp (would make music VERY bassy and
dull), instead of a 'MC preamp' , if your cartridge is indeed MC.

geoff

I don't have model number information about it, but it is an
Audio-Technica cartridge. The sound is normal, just a bit lower volume
than the CD.

I do have to turn the amplifier up to better hear the turntable, but
not "way up". The turntable has normal sound, meaning that it sounds
fine, just a little lower in volume level than the CD player. What I
might try is to record to a tape with the record volume way up, then
record to CD from the tape instead of the LP. With the higher volume
generated from the tape deck (merely because I jacked up the record
volume), that might give me enough "room" to turn the CD record volume
up to get good levels.

wrote in message
ups.com
I do have to turn the amplifier up to better hear the
turntable, but not "way up". The turntable has normal
sound, meaning that it sounds fine, just a little lower
in volume level than the CD player. What I might try is
to record to a tape with the record volume way up, then
record to CD from the tape instead of the LP. With the
higher volume generated from the tape deck (merely
because I jacked up the record volume), that might give
me enough "room" to turn the CD record volume up to get
good levels.

It's probably easier to cut down the signal from the CD
player with an attenuator.

In article .com, " wrote:
I'm a newbie to the group, so I might have missed this if it was
addressed before... I have a Technics 1200 turntable that does not
have a pre-amp. It is connected to a phono jack on a JVC amplifier.
When recording to either the tape deck or the CD recorder, the music
recorded from the turntable is much lower in volume than a CD. I've
heard (don't know if it's true or not) that getting a pre-amp would
solve the problem. Can a pre-amp be purchased and connected inline
between the turntable and the amplifier? The turntable wasn't cheap
and I'm not in the market to upgrade it.

Does anyone have any ideas? Thank you.
JoAnn :-)


All my systems have reduced phono levels.
You need a mixer to record properly.


greg

On 20 Oct 2005 04:17:10 -0700, "
wrote:

I do have to turn the amplifier up to better hear the turntable, but
not "way up". The turntable has normal sound, meaning that it sounds
fine, just a little lower in volume level than the CD player.

Then everything's normal. Just continue to use the volume control.

What I
might try is to record to a tape with the record volume way up, then
record to CD from the tape instead of the LP. With the higher volume
generated from the tape deck (merely because I jacked up the record
volume), that might give me enough "room" to turn the CD record volume
up to get good levels.

If you can stand the additional noise/distortion due to the dual
transfers, that will get you there.

Kal

On 19 Oct 2005 16:27:45 -0700, "
wrote:

The jack is specifically labeled PHONO and there is a ground for the
turntable as well. I talked to radio shack about it once and they told
me that I had to buy this smaller amplifier (that they called a preamp)
and connect it between the turntable and the JVC amplifier. I did that
and the results were clearly wrong.

Do you still have that preamp? You shouldn't connect the preamp's
output to the PHONO input. Connect the preamp between the turntable
and a LINE, VIDEO or AUX input of the JVC, and see if that's any
better/different/worse than going from the turntable into the PHONO
input.

Can a preamp be connected inline
between the turntable and the amplifier to boost the signal?

wrote in message
oups.com...
I don't have model number information about it, but it is an
Audio-Technica cartridge. The sound is normal, just a bit lower volume
than the CD.


I have an AT phono cartridge which is MC, and has and inline transformmer in
the phono lead. You may indeed have an MC cartridge, but AT do make both
types...

geoff

wrote in message
ups.com...
I do have to turn the amplifier up to better hear the turntable, but
not "way up". The turntable has normal sound, meaning that it sounds
fine, just a little lower in volume level than the CD player. What I
might try is to record to a tape with the record volume way up, then
record to CD from the tape instead of the LP. With the higher volume
generated from the tape deck (merely because I jacked up the record
volume), that might give me enough "room" to turn the CD record volume
up to get good levels.

Don't filter your music thru a cassette !

geoff

" wrote:

I'm a newbie to the group, so I might have missed this if it was
addressed before... I have a Technics 1200 turntable that does not
have a pre-amp. It is connected to a phono jack on a JVC amplifier.
When recording to either the tape deck or the CD recorder, the music
recorded from the turntable is much lower in volume than a CD.

This is normal, and caused by CD players having a higher output level.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Put say an 8 dB attenuator in the wiring from CD-player to amp. That
would be about the difference I reckon.

Asumption: a proper phono input is present and used. If not the signal
will be almost treble only and very very weak, not the complaint you
seem to have.

Thank you.
JoAnn :-)

You do not have a problem that really needs addressing, but the
difference in sound volume when playing records and when playing CDs can
be unpleasant. CD players had their output level increased compared to
other home audio objects for two reasons: to actually fit the noise
floor of digital to the noisefloor of electronically possible lineamps
and to allow a better headroom for the occasional transient. The latter
concept has been totally disregarded and CD's are generally made at
least as loud as possible.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

Kalman Rubinson wrote:

In that case, the output of the phono cartridge you have (what model
is it?) is too low for the gain/amplification of the phono stage.

No Kalman, all is as it is designed to be. But the riaa stage of that
amp matches for a 500 to 1000 mV line level and the CD player has a 2
volt output capability that is fully used in spit of it actually being
intended to match the same line level. Henche the probable 8 dB
difference in loudness between the sources.

This is hard to correct without changing the cartridge or the amp.

This is easy to correct: attentuate the CD-player by 8 dB.

Or you can simply live with the discrepancy and just turn up the phono
when you need to.

Simplest.

Kal


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

GregS wrote:

All my systems have reduced phono levels.
You need a mixer to record properly.

I just use a 1010LT to have a matched record input and the option of
concurrent recording for each source, but in the actual context it is
easier and simpler to put a suitable attenuator in the CD players
connection to the amp.

greg


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

I agree.. At home when I'm listening, it's not an issue. Where it
becomes an issue is in my car when I'm listening to mix CD's that I've
recorded on the CD recorder at home - especially when I record
something from the turntable and then something from the CD player.
I've got the volume in the car turned up to better hear the recording
from the turntable, but then when the next song (recorded from the CD
player) starts, I'm practically blown out of the car. Thought about
doing whole CD's from the turntable and not mixing in any CD tracks;
however.. that interferes with the logical flow that happens when
making a mix cd - if that doesn't sound too flaky.

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:12:11 +0200, Peter Larsen
wrote:

Kalman Rubinson wrote:

In that case, the output of the phono cartridge you have (what model
is it?) is too low for the gain/amplification of the phono stage.

No Kalman, all is as it is designed to be. But the riaa stage of that
amp matches for a 500 to 1000 mV line level and the CD player has a 2
volt output capability that is fully used in spit of it actually being
intended to match the same line level. Henche the probable 8 dB
difference in loudness between the sources.

Actually, I was answering a different question which, apparently, was
not even asked. I had assumed he found the listening level for phono
too low unless he turned the VC all the way up. If so, that would
mean he had inadequate gain in the system. It seems, however, he is
more concerned about relative level differences and, specifically, how
they record.

Kal

In article .com, " wrote:
I agree.. At home when I'm listening, it's not an issue. Where it
becomes an issue is in my car when I'm listening to mix CD's that I've
recorded on the CD recorder at home - especially when I record
something from the turntable and then something from the CD player.
I've got the volume in the car turned up to better hear the recording
from the turntable, but then when the next song (recorded from the CD
player) starts, I'm practically blown out of the car. Thought about
doing whole CD's from the turntable and not mixing in any CD tracks;
however.. that interferes with the logical flow that happens when
making a mix cd - if that doesn't sound too flaky.


Its bad enough different records will have different levels,
and different CD's will have different levels, and Tapes...
Either a manual, and or an automatic volume control, and especially
a mixer, will bring all into perspective. A regular mixer for DJ's has level matching
except for MC cartridges. I once used HI FI VCRs, which have built
in automatic volume control on record, into the chain to minimize
level changing. They have 10 to 20 dB of action.

greg

" wrote:

I agree.. At home when I'm listening, it's not an issue. Where it
becomes an issue is in my car when I'm listening to mix CD's that I've
recorded on the CD recorder at home - especially when I record
something from the turntable and then something from the CD player.
I've got the volume in the car turned up to better hear the recording
from the turntable, but then when the next song (recorded from the CD
player) starts, I'm practically blown out of the car.

All you need is a small box with a 6, 8, 10, 12 dB attenuator between
CD-player and amp, set the attenation that fits best and forget. Perhaps
GregS has an idea for how you can aquire one.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen


--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

GregS wrote:

Its bad enough different records will have different levels,
and different CD's will have different levels, and Tapes...
Either a manual, and or an automatic volume control, and
especially a mixer, will bring all into perspective.

Not for this questionee, a box with switchable 6, 8, 10, 12 dB
attenuation and to set and forget will fit the questionees problem as
suggested in follow up to questionee. It can be simple and it should be
simple. It is also the cleanest sounding approach.

greg


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

Is your CD recorder a computer? If so, you can adjust the level of all
your computer files to be roughly the same. For example, iTunes has a
box to tick to achieve this and, I assume, Windows software will have
something similar.

No.. It's a Philips CD Recorder attached to the stereo. I've tried
offsetting the issue by bumping up the record volume, but it doesn't
work like you'd think it would.

wrote:
No.. It's a Philips CD Recorder attached to the stereo.

Presumably the recorder does not have a knob for adjusting record
level?

I've tried
offsetting the issue by bumping up the record volume, but it doesn't
work like you'd think it would.

Does this mean you increased the volume on the amplifier and the level
going to the CD did not change? Or is the knob on the CD recorder?

Do you have access to a computer? If so, what audio inputs and outputs
does it have?

The recorder does have a knob for adjusting the record level, but it
doesn't do much good when recording from the turntable. It's up almost
all the way when recording from the turntable and yet I still see a
large difference in the recorded music on the CD. If I adjust the
record level on the CD recorder when recording from a CD, the level
goes up, just like the turntable.. but since the turntable is so much
lower to begin with, the recordings made from the turntable can never
be as loud as the ones from the cd player.

I have a computer - not sure if it has inputs or not (probably does,
the PC is less than a year old). However... these pieces of equipment
are not in the same room of the house and the purpose of buying the CD
recorder was to record from vinyl.

wrote in message
ups.com...
The recorder does have a knob for adjusting the record level, but it
doesn't do much good when recording from the turntable. It's up almost
all the way when recording from the turntable and yet I still see a
large difference in the recorded music on the CD. If I adjust the
record level on the CD recorder when recording from a CD, the level
goes up, just like the turntable.. but since the turntable is so much
lower to begin with, the recordings made from the turntable can never
be as loud as the ones from the cd player.

I have a computer - not sure if it has inputs or not (probably does,
the PC is less than a year old). However... these pieces of equipment
are not in the same room of the house and the purpose of buying the CD
recorder was to record from vinyl.


I still think you may be using a low-output moving coil cartridge that
requires a headamp to get anywhere near acceptable volume levels.

Harry Lavo wrote:

I still think you may be using a low-output moving coil cartridge that
requires a headamp to get anywhere near acceptable volume levels.

Not likely, the loudness difference between playing a record and the CD
output appears to be in the order of magnitude caused by CD players
having a 2 volts peak sound output. The questionee needs an inline
attenuator in the cable from CD player to amp, it is the simplest, the
best and the cheapest solution.

Fixing what is too loud requires a sum total of 4 resistors.



Kind regards

Peter Larsen


--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

It's up almost
all the way when recording from the turntable and yet I still see a
large difference in the recorded music on the CD.

It is not up all the way? So are you raising the level until a light
comes on saying you have it at the correct volume? For the turntable
the knob is set near the maximum and for the CD it is set near the
minimum. If so, this would appear to be correct.

Are your loud CDs recently recorded rock/pop music?

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:

I still think you may be using a low-output moving coil cartridge that
requires a headamp to get anywhere near acceptable volume levels.

Not likely, the loudness difference between playing a record and the CD
output appears to be in the order of magnitude caused by CD players
having a 2 volts peak sound output. The questionee needs an inline
attenuator in the cable from CD player to amp, it is the simplest, the
best and the cheapest solution.


He says that with the volume control all the way up on the recorder, he
still has insufficient volume. Since a "tape out" output will normally
require a recorder volume setting of around six or seven, something is
seriously wrong. And it isn't a matter of just a few db's.

Harry Lavo wrote:

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:

I still think you may be using a low-output moving coil cartridge that
requires a headamp to get anywhere near acceptable volume levels.

Not likely, the loudness difference between playing a record and the CD
output appears to be in the order of magnitude caused by CD players
having a 2 volts peak sound output. The questionee needs an inline
attenuator in the cable from CD player to amp, it is the simplest, the
best and the cheapest solution.


He says that with the volume control all the way up on the recorder, he
still has insufficient volume. Since a "tape out" output will normally
require a recorder volume setting of around six or seven, something is
seriously wrong. And it isn't a matter of just a few db's.

Oh oh, yes, well perhaps we could get the actual model of said CD
recorder and check its input sensivity or a posting of its specs from
the questionee?


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

Another thought: is there a switch on the front or, possibly, on the
back of the CD recorder for introducing a large change in the recording
level. This might not be labelled something obvious.