Looking at the front of the Klipschhorn, its flat forward face seems
just tailor made for a ribbon tweeter to be mounted there. Is there a
good reason wy this is a bad idea?

said:

Looking at the front of the Klipschhorn, its flat forward face seems
just tailor made for a ribbon tweeter to be mounted there. Is there a
good reason wy this is a bad idea?


Yep. It would be like fitting 18-inch alloys under a Yugo.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

This coming from a Citroen driver...I may be crazy, but I'm not
missing fingers from hydraulic injection!

said:

This coming from a Citroen driver...I may be crazy, but I'm not
missing fingers from hydraulic injection!


Missing fingers? Do I type *that* bad? ;-)

BTW the old big Citroens use hydropneumatic suspension.
Allow me to let you in on a secret: Lexus will offer a suspension
based on Citroen's hydropneumatic technology in the near future.
On their most expensive models, and on request only.
They're only catching up on superior suspension technology after 50
years (introduction of the DS was in 1955) ;-)

As you probably guessed, I'm not a big fan of K-horns.
Or Yugos.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

wrote in message
ups.com...
Looking at the front of the Klipschhorn, its flat forward face seems
just tailor made for a ribbon tweeter to be mounted there. Is there a
good reason wy this is a bad idea?


#1. It is yours.
#2. It is a Klipschorn.
#3. It is a waste of a potentially good tweeter.

Cheers,

Margaret

Margaret von B. wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Looking at the front of the Klipschhorn, its flat forward face seems
just tailor made for a ribbon tweeter to be mounted there. Is there a
good reason wy this is a bad idea?


#1. It is yours.
#2. It is a Klipschorn.
#3. It is a waste of a potentially good tweeter.

But it doesn't smell like a dead halibut, unlike your folded horn.

I actually think the Cit hydraulic suspension is a good idea. It is
NOT well carried out. They ignored all known best practices for
hydraulic systems. They even got the fluid colors ass
backwards-Vegetable fluid is BLUE, mineral RED, phosphate ester PURPLE
in the real world. And no one uses vegetable fluid, except the static
hydraulic systems in automotive braking, anymore.

Your typing is fine, but if you don't keep clear of pressure side
hydro leaks, you will lose fingers-or a limb-or even die. As with Bosch
pump diesel engines, hydraulic leaks can inject you with fluid. All
known usable hydraulic fluids except DI water are lethal to tissue. A&P
mechanics-and ag/diesel types-know this but Bubba at the gas station
doesn't.

wrote in message
oups.com...


Margaret von B. wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Looking at the front of the Klipschhorn, its flat forward face seems
just tailor made for a ribbon tweeter to be mounted there. Is there a
good reason wy this is a bad idea?


#1. It is yours.
#2. It is a Klipschorn.
#3. It is a waste of a potentially good tweeter.

But it doesn't smell like a dead halibut, unlike your folded horn.


I wonder what your mother did to you.....

Margaret

Cal said:

"Looking at the front of the Klipschhorn, its flat forward face seems
just tailor made for a ribbon tweeter to be mounted there. Is there a
good reason wy this is a bad idea? "

Are you familiar with the expression lipstick on a pig?

a écrit :
Looking at the front of the Klipschhorn, its flat forward face seems
just tailor made for a ribbon tweeter to be mounted there. Is there a
good reason wy this is a bad idea?

Why not ?
http://www.alkeng.com/trachorn.html

Sure that on the *thin* column model you can do that.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...rs-7-2000.html
With that :
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/ind...29131&pid=1889

With crossover modification it would cost you about USD
250.00 for an *hypothetical* improvement...

Conclusion : you'd better purchase USD 250.00 of good music !

said:

I actually think the Cit hydraulic suspension is a good idea. It is
NOT well carried out. They ignored all known best practices for
hydraulic systems. They even got the fluid colors ass
backwards-Vegetable fluid is BLUE, mineral RED, phosphate ester PURPLE
in the real world. And no one uses vegetable fluid, except the static
hydraulic systems in automotive braking, anymore.


And yet the green LHM system is the most maintenance free braking- and
suspension system ever made.
The fluid is non-hygroscopic, it can withstand high temperatures, it
needs changing only every 5 years, the spheres need checking only
every 5 years and replacement only every 10 years.
Some even last 15 to 20 years.
Spheres are easy to access and replace, as opposed to most shock
absorbers in normal suspensions.
Fiddling with height and suspension caharcter is simply a matter of
setting a lever to another position.

The "DiRaVi" ( DIrection RAppel a VItesse) power steering as used in
the CX and SM is unique in the sense that not only is it progressively
speed-dependent, it also forces the wheels to go back in the straight
position by itself.
At first, it takes some time to grow accustomed to that feature, after
an hour or so you don't want anything else.
Driving *any* other car after that will leave you with the impression
that there's something missing.

Oh, explaining the virtues of a HD-Citroen to the great unwashed is
like touting the qualities of tube amplification to the Borgs. ;-)


Your typing is fine, but if you don't keep clear of pressure side
hydro leaks, you will lose fingers-or a limb-or even die. As with Bosch
pump diesel engines, hydraulic leaks can inject you with fluid. All
known usable hydraulic fluids except DI water are lethal to tissue. A&P
mechanics-and ag/diesel types-know this but Bubba at the gas station
doesn't.


I'm a hobby mechanic in the CX-club in Holland, and I've never heard
of accidents with the Citroen hydropneumatic system like that.
Other things can happen though, like broken conduits and the like.
Preventive maintenace will take care of that.

Don't forget that most cars using this system are 20+ years old!

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

The Rolls Royce used the Cit components and to my mind the RR was a
better car overall. The brakes are much more pleasant than the clitoral
bump on Cits and the spheres are strictly in "helper" mode. Of course
the RR was almost three times the weight and a third the fuel mileage.

Of course the ID/DS and SM were the last ones in America. The CX is a
better car I understand but they are unobtanium Stateside.

"LHM" is actually a transmission fluid minus the friction modifiers
and is used in some ag equipment as well as Rolls Royces and Citroens.
Dexron II or 5606 work just as well, except they are red.

Hydro suspension is _not_ peculiar to Citroen. British Leyland had
Hydrolastic and Hydragas, and several Mercedes Benzes had hydraulic
rear suspension using a pump and accumulator as well. The Cit system
with a conventional brake pedal and using standard fluids, lines, and
fittings would be practical even today.

The total failure of Citroen in the US had to do a lot with things
like abysmal dealer support, slothlike acceleration, and a total
disregard for U.S. driving conditions.

a écrit :

The total failure of Citroen in the US had to do a lot with things
like abysmal dealer support, slothlike acceleration, and a total
disregard for U.S. driving conditions.

American have the same behaviour for cars than for team
sports. They are totaly unable to communicate their needs,
their interest to the rest of the world.

On Sat, 28 May 2005 20:21:15 +0200, Lionel
wrote:

a écrit :

The total failure of Citroen in the US had to do a lot with things
like abysmal dealer support, slothlike acceleration, and a total
disregard for U.S. driving conditions.

American have the same behaviour for cars than for team
sports. They are totaly unable to communicate their needs,
their interest to the rest of the world.

Yes, that's why the Japanese have done so poorly with THEIR cars.

said:.

Of course the ID/DS and SM were the last ones in America. The CX is a
better car I understand but they are unobtanium Stateside.


Canada is also a part of the continent of North-America, right?

http://www.citroen-ca.com/CXguide.html

There are also a few still around in the USA.


"LHM" is actually a transmission fluid minus the friction modifiers
and is used in some ag equipment as well as Rolls Royces and Citroens.
Dexron II or 5606 work just as well, except they are red.


Actually, there are 2 versions of hydraulic fluid used in Citroens:
LHS, which is red and used in the DS up to 1966, and the green LHM
which is used by all HD Citroens after that date.

Even the 2CV, which has a conventional brake system, uses LHM!


Hydro suspension is _not_ peculiar to Citroen. British Leyland had
Hydrolastic and Hydragas, and several Mercedes Benzes had hydraulic
rear suspension using a pump and accumulator as well. The Cit system
with a conventional brake pedal and using standard fluids, lines, and
fittings would be practical even today.


Maybe not peculiar to Citroen, but they invented it!
And the CX *is* a perfect every day driver, providing you have easy
access to spare parts and you have the knowledge how to fix them.


The total failure of Citroen in the US had to do a lot with things
like abysmal dealer support, slothlike acceleration, and a total
disregard for U.S. driving conditions.


Peugeot is thinking of a comeback.
If and when that happens, Citroen will follow because they're part of
one organization, called the PSA group.

PSA also has ties with Toyota, Ford and BMW, so they may use their
dealer network to start up business in the USA. Beware! ;-)

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

dave weil a écrit :
On Sat, 28 May 2005 20:21:15 +0200, Lionel
wrote:


a écrit :


The total failure of Citroen in the US had to do a lot with things
like abysmal dealer support, slothlike acceleration, and a total
disregard for U.S. driving conditions.

American have the same behaviour for cars than for team
sports. They are totaly unable to communicate their needs,
their interest to the rest of the world.


Yes, that's why the Japanese have done so poorly with THEIR cars.


Sumo isn't a team sport, idiot.

Well, you'd have a hard time finding a ribbon tweeter that would come close
to matching the efficiency of the main drive units in the Khorn.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Looking at the front of the Klipschhorn, its flat forward face seems
just tailor made for a ribbon tweeter to be mounted there. Is there a
good reason wy this is a bad idea?

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
said:.

Of course the ID/DS and SM were the last ones in America. The CX is a
better car I understand but they are unobtanium Stateside.


Canada is also a part of the continent of North-America, right?

http://www.citroen-ca.com/CXguide.html

There are also a few still around in the USA.


"LHM" is actually a transmission fluid minus the friction modifiers
and is used in some ag equipment as well as Rolls Royces and Citroens.
Dexron II or 5606 work just as well, except they are red.


Actually, there are 2 versions of hydraulic fluid used in Citroens:
LHS, which is red and used in the DS up to 1966, and the green LHM
which is used by all HD Citroens after that date.

Even the 2CV, which has a conventional brake system, uses LHM!


Hydro suspension is _not_ peculiar to Citroen. British Leyland had
Hydrolastic and Hydragas, and several Mercedes Benzes had hydraulic
rear suspension using a pump and accumulator as well. The Cit system
with a conventional brake pedal and using standard fluids, lines, and
fittings would be practical even today.


Maybe not peculiar to Citroen, but they invented it!
And the CX *is* a perfect every day driver, providing you have easy
access to spare parts and you have the knowledge how to fix them.


The total failure of Citroen in the US had to do a lot with things
like abysmal dealer support, slothlike acceleration, and a total
disregard for U.S. driving conditions.


Peugeot is thinking of a comeback.
If and when that happens, Citroen will follow because they're part of
one organization, called the PSA group.

PSA also has ties with Toyota, Ford and BMW, so they may use their
dealer network to start up business in the USA. Beware! ;-)

The Citroens were remarkable engineering achievements, years ahead of their
time.
However, I got addicted to the idea of a car that actually works almost all
the time, ie., a modern Japanese car.
These Subarus are amazing. You put this thing called a "key" in the
ignition, turn it, and away you go.

severian a écrit :

Well, you'd have a hard time finding a ribbon tweeter that would come close
to matching the efficiency of the main drive units in the Khorn.

It's not a problem for Mr Cerise... He will include heavy
serial resistance in his crossover. ;-)

wrote in message
ups.com...

Looking at the front of the Klipschhorn, its flat forward face seems
just tailor made for a ribbon tweeter to be mounted there. Is there a
good reason wy this is a bad idea?

wrote in message
ups.com...
I actually think the Cit hydraulic suspension is a good idea. It is
NOT well carried out. They ignored all known best practices for
hydraulic systems. They even got the fluid colors ass
backwards-Vegetable fluid is BLUE, mineral RED, phosphate ester PURPLE
in the real world. And no one uses vegetable fluid, except the static
hydraulic systems in automotive braking, anymore.

Your typing is fine, but if you don't keep clear of pressure side
hydro leaks, you will lose fingers-or a limb-or even die. As with Bosch
pump diesel engines, hydraulic leaks can inject you with fluid. All
known usable hydraulic fluids except DI water are lethal to tissue. A&P
mechanics-and ag/diesel types-know this but Bubba at the gas station
doesn't.

Hydropneumatic ride is like no other. Mercedes intermittently offered it as
far back as the late 60's on their 300 series, and 600 series. But no one
has succeeded in producing a system that doesn't compromise reliability.
Even Mercedes were famous for bellows blowouts -- their was a short,
mandatory maintenance interval. In the early 90's, Subaru tried it. One
American luxury car manufacturer tried it as well. In each case, the option
lasted only a few years.

"Robert Morein" said:

The Citroens were remarkable engineering achievements, years ahead of their
time.
However, I got addicted to the idea of a car that actually works almost all
the time, ie., a modern Japanese car.
These Subarus are amazing. You put this thing called a "key" in the
ignition, turn it, and away you go.


Funny, my CX does that, too.
40.000 kms/year without any major troubles.

Keyword: major ;-)

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

PD said:


Another mate (already told you of one horror story!) nearly bought it
when his Citreon denied power steering on a corner, showing a
preference for fields to the open road. A xsara I think. My confidence
in the brand is low...


I know about that story.......and I already told you about a close
friend of mine who died while working on his CX.

Better not get a Peugeot as well, then!

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

Sander deWaal a écrit :
PD said:



Another mate (already told you of one horror story!) nearly bought it
when his Citreon denied power steering on a corner, showing a
preference for fields to the open road. A xsara I think. My confidence
in the brand is low...



I know about that story.......and I already told you about a close
friend of mine who died while working on his CX.

Better not get a Peugeot as well, then!

Or a Mercedes. Depends on what you are calling security.

In , Sander deWaal wrote :

PD said:


Another mate (already told you of one horror story!) nearly bought it
when his Citreon denied power steering on a corner, showing a
preference for fields to the open road. A xsara I think. My confidence
in the brand is low...


I know about that story.......and I already told you about a close
friend of mine who died while working on his CX.

Better not get a Peugeot as well, then!


Sorry but they have said NON !

- NON = 55%
- OUI = 45%

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" said:

The Citroens were remarkable engineering achievements, years ahead of
their
time.
However, I got addicted to the idea of a car that actually works almost
all
the time, ie., a modern Japanese car.
These Subarus are amazing. You put this thing called a "key" in the
ignition, turn it, and away you go.


Funny, my CX does that, too.
40.000 kms/year without any major troubles.

Keyword: major ;-)

I never heard that they just fell apart. The word was "unmaintainable."
When I was growing up, the lust-car was an XKE, which well unmaintainable
and also fell apart -- literally, since they did not dip prime the body.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

I never heard that they just fell apart. The word was "unmaintainable."
When I was growing up, the lust-car was an XKE, which well unmaintainable

^^^^^^^
and also fell apart -- literally, since they did not dip prime the body.



Pretty shoddy grammar for someone who was so keen to point out
magnanimous/magnanimus due to a sticky studio keyboard as a method to
insult.

Well, you'd have a hard time finding a ribbon tweeter that would come
close
to matching the efficiency of the main drive units in the Khorn.



What is the efficiency if the K-Horns?

There are some ribbons that might possibly work such as the Arum Cantus
G1@102db 1W/M. Fountek has one that I believe has the same
sensitivity.

Both of the above are priced + $300.00 U.S. This would seem to be a
case of needing the rest of the drivers to come up to the standards of
the tweeters.

There are some Piezo horns that are even more expensive, but IMO it
would be much simpler and cost effective to put your money and time
into something from a more recent century.

"severian" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

I never heard that they just fell apart. The word was "unmaintainable."
When I was growing up, the lust-car was an XKE, which well
unmaintainable

^^^^^^^
and also fell apart -- literally, since they did not dip prime the body.



Pretty shoddy grammar for someone who was so keen to point out
magnanimous/magnanimus due to a sticky studio keyboard as a method to
insult.

I'm sorry. Honestly, I thought you were ignorant. I still do.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, you'd have a hard time finding a ribbon tweeter that would come
close
to matching the efficiency of the main drive units in the Khorn.



What is the efficiency if the K-Horns?

There are some ribbons that might possibly work such as the Arum Cantus
G1@102db 1W/M. Fountek has one that I believe has the same
sensitivity.

Both of the above are priced + $300.00 U.S. This would seem to be a
case of needing the rest of the drivers to come up to the standards of
the tweeters.

There are some Piezo horns that are even more expensive, but IMO it
would be much simpler and cost effective to put your money and time
into something from a more recent century.

Good advice, Powell. Keep up the nice work.

As PWK used to say-the physics haven't changed. The bass extension and
naturalness from K-Horns, La Scalaas, and Belle Klipsches-in order of
performance-are unexcelled by anything else out there. The midrange and
treble, are another matter.

But yes the efficiency of ribbons is relatively poorer. Biamping would
make it easier to mix the two, but ultimately I think it's the sticking
point.

In .com,
wrote :

As PWK used to say-the physics haven't changed. The bass extension and
naturalness from K-Horns, La Scalaas, and Belle Klipsches-in order of
performance-are unexcelled by anything else out there.

Except by all the DIY "Onken" speakers built with high efficiency 38cm
drivers like Altec, Audax, Beyma...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, you'd have a hard time finding a ribbon tweeter that would come
close
to matching the efficiency of the main drive units in the Khorn.



What is the efficiency if the K-Horns?

There are some ribbons that might possibly work such as the Arum Cantus
G1@102db 1W/M. Fountek has one that I believe has the same
sensitivity.

Both of the above are priced + $300.00 U.S. This would seem to be a
case of needing the rest of the drivers to come up to the standards of
the tweeters.

There are some Piezo horns that are even more expensive, but IMO it
would be much simpler and cost effective to put your money and time
into something from a more recent century.


I seem to recall that the advertised efficiency of the Khorns is 104
dB/watt, so 102 would work. I can't see wanting any more highs out of the
Khorns myself personally. I would pad the mids and tweets down a few dB
myself.

Lionel said:

Sorry but they have said NON !

- NON = 55%
- OUI = 45%


So I heard......that's a pity, really.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

Sander deWaal said:

So I heard......that's a pity, really.

From my vantage point, it's always seemed there were two forces impeding the
progress of Europe toward modernity: corruption and the French.

George M. Middius a écrit :

Sander deWaal said:


So I heard......that's a pity, really.


From my vantage point, it's always seemed there were two forces impeding the
progress of Europe toward modernity: corruption and the French.

LOL, it is funny to receive a lesson of politic from a guy
who has actively participated to the reelection of G.W. Bush
! :-D

Since by "modernity" you surely mean "US tutelage" we aren't
interest in this kind of "progress", and we are proud of
that. ;-)

Sander deWaal a écrit :
Lionel said:


Sorry but they have said NON !


- NON = 55%
- OUI = 45%



So I heard......that's a pity, really.

Sorry again.
At least I hope that it will provide the necessary
"electrochoc" to your compatriots.

:-(

"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote
in message

Sander deWaal said:

So I heard......that's a pity, really.

From my vantage point, it's always seemed there were two forces impeding
the
progress of Europe toward modernity: corruption and the French.

I personally thought it was those savage, barbaric Norsemen that we have in
the union - the Swedes and the Danes.

In , Schizoid Man wrote :


"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net
wrote in message

Sander deWaal said:

So I heard......that's a pity, really.

From my vantage point, it's always seemed there were two forces impeding
the
progress of Europe toward modernity: corruption and the French.

I personally thought it was those savage, barbaric Norsemen that we have
in the union - the Swedes and the Danes.

Please don't play Middius game.
Middius doesn't understand Europe and when Middius doesn't understand he
tries to discredit.
His above garbage is just the expression of his megalomaniac, jingoist and
nationalist conception of the politics. In this he is nearly worst that
ScottW, yes really.

Middius hasn't any future so he isn't a constructor just a sterile and
stupid individualist, nihilist.

Lionel wrote:
a =E9crit :

The total failure of Citroen in the US had to do a lot with things
like abysmal dealer support, slothlike acceleration, and a total
disregard for U.S. driving conditions.

And the Citroen cars were kinda weird and only attracted a cult
following in the US. Vehicles like the Mehari just weren't suited for
the US either.

American have the same behaviour for cars than for team
sports.

Huh?

They are totaly unable to communicate their needs,
their interest to the rest of the world.

The US is the world's biggest car market, so there's plenty of
opportunity in the US. If a car maker can't succeed in the US, it's
because the car maker can't communicate the car's attractions to US
customers and is unwilling to make the effort to succeed in the US.

Another problem for French automakers in the US is that they come and
go from the US market. The French makers don't make the commitment to
stay and succeed. For example, both Peugot and Renault have entered and
left the US market at least twice. In contrast, German, Japanese,
Korean, and Swedish makers came into the US market and have stuck it
out through thick and thin. If Citroen really wanted to make the effort
and investment in the US that many other foreign makers have, Citroen
might succeed in the US.

I understand that Renault owns a big chunk of Nissan now. So that's the
only French presence and success in the US now, and a lot Nissan's
success has (IMHO) to do with the fact that Nissan (under the Datsun
and Nissan brand names) entered the US market 40 or so years ago, never
left, and built vehicles such as the Z cars and SUVs that suit US
tastes. Success in the US ain't rocket science. ;-)

Schizoid Man said:

From my vantage point, it's always seemed there were two forces impeding the
progress of Europe toward modernity: corruption and the French.

I personally thought it was those savage, barbaric Norsemen that we have in
the union - the Swedes and the Danes.

Which caste are you referring to?