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#1
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recording drums on two tracks
Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks
is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the machines that let you just record on two tracks. Maybe if I was good at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy. |
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#2
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Ha ha. Yeah, it can be tough. What you want to try to do is to mix the drums
correctly *before* you actually start recording them. I'm sorry, but what you're doing just sounds stupid. There are actually a couple of other newsgroups that are tailor-made for newbies and/or people that just seem to grasp the basics. Check out harmony central, and you'll be able to find a newsgroup more suited to your limited needs. We don't really deal with questions from people that have roommates and 2 track recorders here. Hope this helps. And good luck! |
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#3
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What you may want to try to achieve is a way of mixing the drums with some
reference of the other instruments and vocal. This will not lock you into having to cater to a mediocre drum mix. I couldn't be sure what kind of equipment you have or what level you are at, but you should most certainly get yourself at least an inexpensive multitrack DAW, which will complement your analog recorder or maybe even render it obsolete! Some of the powerful Software packages can be a little intimidating if you're new to it all but it's the ticket to pro sounding mixes if you're eager to spend the time. Neil R "Youngsexcandy" wrote in message ... Ha ha. Yeah, it can be tough. What you want to try to do is to mix the drums correctly *before* you actually start recording them. I'm sorry, but what you're doing just sounds stupid. There are actually a couple of other newsgroups that are tailor-made for newbies and/or people that just seem to grasp the basics. Check out harmony central, and you'll be able to find a newsgroup more suited to your limited needs. We don't really deal with questions from people that have roommates and 2 track recorders here. Hope this helps. And good luck! |
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#4
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.. We don't really deal with questions from people that have roommates and 2 track recorders here. Hope this helps. And good luck! Whatever.... Anyway, it sounds like maybe your drummer needs to get it in his head that HE is mixing the drums. Tell him to stop beating the **** out of "anything made of metal", and tell him to deliberately and consitently whack "anything with a skin on". IOW - lighten up on the hats and cymbals, and hit the drums themselves real nice and firm so they 'speak' properly. Get the blend in the room that you are after. I got a great drum sound in the weekend just gone with 4 mics : Coles 4038 as a single overhead, above the snare, about 6' higher than the snare A pair of Oktavas' on either side of the drummers head, like a pair of ears AKG D112 in the kick. Most of the sound was the kick and the Oktavas, with some squeezed overhead for ambience. Basically it sounded good because the drummer plays real well, and his kit sounds really nice. Also check out Fletchers site www.mercenary.com for some great drum recording tips. Generally, if it sounds good in the room you are off to a good start. Tuning them nicely helps too - google for "Drum Tuning" and see what you learn. Good luck! Geoff --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 8/11/2004 |
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#6
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#7
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"Youngsexcandy" wrote in message
We don't really deal with questions from people that have roommates and 2 track recorders here. Hope this helps. And good luck! I stop reading RAP for a week and now we have a new king? Why are you the spokesman and why do you think that beginning home recordists have no place here? Because of the low traffic flow in alt.audio.4-track I eventually unsubscribed. I like having many diverse people all with different ideas such as here in RAP. It's a much larger knowledge base. Are you telling me that there will be no more replies to the "What's the best vocal mic?" threads? |
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#8
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Nat wrote:
Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the machines that let you just record on two tracks. Hell, I use two tracks for the whole orchestra half the time. I don't get the need for ukubillion drum submixes. Either the drums sound good and are appropriate for the mix or they aren't. Maybe if I was good at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy. To some extent you can deal with that sort of thing with EQ, but my suggestion is to keep trying, and also to try and listen to some commercial recording and JUST listen to the drums and how the drums fall into the mix. Get practice at isolating the different tracks in your head. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#9
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"Nat" wrote in message
m... Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks is madness. Madness that was a luxury 35 years ago! The cleverest method I ever ran into for an 8 track recording of a rock band was overhead, rack toms and kick on one track and snare and floor tom mikes on another. This lets you use a combination of eq. and balance between the two tracks to achieve a great mono drum sound. -- Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined! 615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com |
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#10
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We don't really deal with
questions from people that have roommates and 2 track recorders here. Hope this helps. And good luck! I dunno if even have anything to say to this ^ I thought that was the point of the group. At any rate I think we do deal with questions like this.... often. I think a lot can be done with 2 tracks on drums. Hell I've had great success with one mic. Don't think you're limited by you mic selection or your hardware. Much can be done with so little. I remember reading an interview with Phill Ramone i believe, he said something to the effect "All you need is one SM57 and creativity" Just be creative. Also think about the song and what it needs for the recording. All to often I would get caught up with getting "THE" tone for the drums or guitar and it would sound great by itself but didn't fit the song. As a friend put it "It sounds great.... And if i was going to buy a CD that was just drums that sounded awesome i think this would be it. But it's just too good sounding for my songs." We ended up using on 57 pointed into the kit and that ended up fitting the song better. No I find the sound of a couple mic's and a good drummer in the right location to be far more pleasing. cheers garrett (Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1092657979k@trad... In article writes: Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks is madness. Then what do you call recording the whole band on two, or even one track? They did that for a long time, and I'll bet you've even heard some of those recordings and liked the sound. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the machines that let you just record on two tracks. I'll admit that when you're trying to record multitrack, being able to record only two tracks at once is a hard way to go, but that isn't really multitrack recording, it's one- or two-track recording with a lot of overdubbing and mixing later. Maybe if I was good at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. That's the ticket! |
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#11
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Madness that was a luxury 35 years ago!
I'll tell you what, google groups is a luxury. Wow. I really appreciate all the advice -- thanks so much for the replies. My drummer and I are going into a marathon session this weekend and I hope to incorporate a lot of your suggestions. This album is only my second, and it's my first time tackling drums, but then even imperfectly recorded acoustic drums knock the socks of that drum machine I used last time. Lucky for me, I have a technically excellent drummer playing with me, and he's nice enough not to have killed me yet for all my retries. So I have some faith... Thanks again. |
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#12
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Madness that was a luxury 35 years ago!
I'll tell you what, google groups is a luxury. Wow. I really appreciate all the advice -- thanks so much for the replies. My drummer and I are going into a marathon session this weekend and I hope to incorporate a lot of your suggestions. This album is only my second, and it's my first time tackling drums, but then even imperfectly recorded acoustic drums knock the socks of that drum machine I used last time. Lucky for me, I have a technically excellent drummer playing with me, and he's nice enough not to have killed me yet for all my retries. So I have some faith... Thanks again. |
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#13
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I would try to record with 2 o/h mics and the kick
just for some space then hard pan those 2 mics and leave the kick down the center. and mix down to 2 tracks almost no thinking to how to get it to come out right. "playonATcomcast.net" wrote in message ... With a decent drummer and a reasonable room, you can get a great drum sound with one overhead and a kick. I was messing around with this just the other day... I had four mics set up, but when I played it back with just the OH and the kick alone, it sounded great. The thing is that the drummer has to be able to balance the kit with how he plays it. Al On 15 Aug 2004 21:35:10 -0700, (Nat) wrote: Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the machines that let you just record on two tracks. Maybe if I was good at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy. |
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#14
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In article %LvUc.133114$J06.132726@pd7tw2no, Doug Schultz
wrote: I would try to record with 2 o/h mics and the kick just for some space then hard pan those 2 mics and leave the kick down the center. and mix down to 2 tracks almost no thinking to how to get it to come out right. Depending on how it sounds and what kinda mic technique you use, you may want to pan the 2 overheads in slightly if the stereo image is making things sound a little wishy washy. Can tighten things up in your mix, depending obviously on what you get. David Correia Celebration Sound Warren, Rhode Island www.CelebrationSound.com |
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#15
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Nat wrote:
Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the machines that let you just record on two tracks. Maybe if I was good at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy. I've had success with an A-B pair of omni's in front of the drum kit, placed at the height of the top of kick drum. It needs a good, large room though. Stig Erik Tangen |
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#16
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"david" wrote in message ... In article %LvUc.133114$J06.132726@pd7tw2no, Doug Schultz wrote: I would try to record with 2 o/h mics and the kick just for some space then hard pan those 2 mics and leave the kick down the center. and mix down to 2 tracks almost no thinking to how to get it to come out right. Depending on how it sounds and what kinda mic technique you use, you may want to pan the 2 overheads in slightly if the stereo image is making things sound a little wishy washy. Can tighten things up in your mix, depending obviously on what you get. You are right of course. I very rarely pan all the way and I was just typing in a hurry should have been more precise. with drum mixes I start at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions and then see how bad the phasing is and move them in from there. Doug |
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#17
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I never tried that. I like that idea and I'm looking forward to testing it out.
"Doug Schultz" wrote in message news:SdKUc.141902$gE.9298@pd7tw3no... "david" wrote in message ... In article %LvUc.133114$J06.132726@pd7tw2no, Doug Schultz wrote: I would try to record with 2 o/h mics and the kick just for some space then hard pan those 2 mics and leave the kick down the center. and mix down to 2 tracks almost no thinking to how to get it to come out right. Depending on how it sounds and what kinda mic technique you use, you may want to pan the 2 overheads in slightly if the stereo image is making things sound a little wishy washy. Can tighten things up in your mix, depending obviously on what you get. You are right of course. I very rarely pan all the way and I was just typing in a hurry should have been more precise. with drum mixes I start at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions and then see how bad the phasing is and move them in from there. Doug |
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#18
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I never tried that. I like that idea and I'm looking forward to testing it out.
"Doug Schultz" wrote in message news:SdKUc.141902$gE.9298@pd7tw3no... "david" wrote in message ... In article %LvUc.133114$J06.132726@pd7tw2no, Doug Schultz wrote: I would try to record with 2 o/h mics and the kick just for some space then hard pan those 2 mics and leave the kick down the center. and mix down to 2 tracks almost no thinking to how to get it to come out right. Depending on how it sounds and what kinda mic technique you use, you may want to pan the 2 overheads in slightly if the stereo image is making things sound a little wishy washy. Can tighten things up in your mix, depending obviously on what you get. You are right of course. I very rarely pan all the way and I was just typing in a hurry should have been more precise. with drum mixes I start at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions and then see how bad the phasing is and move them in from there. Doug |
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#19
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#20
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Nat, are you looking for ways to record the entire kit with 2 mics,
or, are you trying to improve the stereo submix of drums that you're forced to do because you only have 8 tracks? I'm guessing it's the latter of the 2. One thing someone else touched on is getting a sense of how the drums sit with other instrumentation, even if just scratch tracks, in the mix. I mic drums with 3 mics and submix to a mono track, and I have found out the hard way that setting levels to what sounds like a 'real" kit when bouncing will leave your track kick shy and snare shy at mixdown. So I usually make the kick and snare a *little* louder in the bounce, to where it almost seems too loud, so that they don't disappear after I add 6 guitars, tambourine, handclaps and vocals! Yeah, it's the latter. I understand that a lot of songs are recorded starting with the drums, but I -- for better and worse -- have been recording drums lately after I have other tracks down... I think my drummer prefers it, and it has worked out so far. He's got good, strict, click-track timing, so there's not too many timing problems for me doing it that way. So, as of late, I actually have mixed most of my drums in the context of the song itself. In the past, I've had problems with the snare being too quiet in the mix, and I wonder now if I was just working for a perfect set sound at the time without hearing it as part of the mix as a whole. |
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#21
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it depends on the style of music. many symphonic recordings are made
with just two mics covering 85 people. old-school big band probably had one mic hung over the drummer and the rest was caught incidentally in the other mics. ringo star, early days, a single coles mic as an overhead, and a kick drum mic (i think a fet). if you're doing modern heavy metal, you need lots of mics, because the music likes that crisp separation. but you could do a decent job with two mics. just make sure they are two good mics! set the first mic about 6 feet over the drummers head and about 8 feet in front of him. have him play loud. put the second mic on the kick drum. then during mixdown, put a lot of compression on the overhead mic. that will suck up all the low sounds so your tom fills will be heard. also, when you mic futher back like this, the kit will even out volume wise. you need a room with at least a 12 foot ceiling do do this justice, or your ceiling will be giving you lame sonic bounce in a bad way into the distant mic. Using 3 mics gives you John Bonham from Led Zepplin (a pair of spaced u87s up and in front, and a kick drum mic). nobody can say he had bad drum sounds. lots of 60's drums used 2 or three mics. just make sure the overhead(s) is at least a number of feet away and then compress the hell out of it. you'll get that "giant sucking sound" that Ross Perot referred to in the 1992 campaigns. |
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#22
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#23
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#24
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"xy" wrote in message
om... ... just make sure the overhead(s) is at least a number of feet away and then compress the hell out of it. you'll get that "giant sucking sound" that Ross Perot referred to in the 1992 campaigns. I never saw anybody compress an overhead during the '60s. Sometimes the whole drum track might get compressed in the mix because of a balance problem but it is totally mythology that we used to compress drums as SOP. -- Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined! 615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com |
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#25
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How do you get good, strict click-track timing without a drummer? Or
are your other tracks machine-generated? Most real musicians are much more comfortable playing to a drummer than to a click track, even if it's a drum machine. I play most of the parts myself, and I don't mind playing to a drum machine. Then my drummer comes in afterwards and lays drums to what I've done with a click going. Thus far, it's worked. |
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#26
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but you could do a decent job with two mics. just make sure they are
two good mics! set the first mic about 6 feet over the drummers head and about 8 feet in front of him. have him play loud. put the second mic on the kick drum. Sadly, I'm always forced to tune out when people say "good mics." I gotta do everything with my 57s and 58s. It's kinda fun, pretty impossible. On many instruments and vocs I mic model, which is cheating and probably pretty transparent, but it makes me feel like a regular princess, changing from fancy mic to fancy mic at will. |
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#27
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I've been recording my band with just an AKG stereo microphone lately.
I think it has a pair of CK-1 cardioid capsules, in an XY configuration. I'm reallu liking it. I'm actually recording the whole band with it. The thing I love about this approach is that it completely removes the recording equipment from the recording process. You just set up the mike, hit record, and start playing. If it doesn't sound right, you don't mess with the microphone or the preamp or the recorder, you mess with your instruments and your bandmates and perhaps the room. Instead of pushing faders up and down, you push musicians around to get the balance you need. Instead of using EQ on a drum track, you tune the drum. ulysses In article , Nat wrote: Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the machines that let you just record on two tracks. Maybe if I was good at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy. |
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#28
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I've been recording my band with just an AKG stereo microphone lately.
I think it has a pair of CK-1 cardioid capsules, in an XY configuration. Is that the C33E? Scott Fraser |
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#29
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ScotFraser wrote:
I've been recording my band with just an AKG stereo microphone lately. I think it has a pair of CK-1 cardioid capsules, in an XY configuration. Is that the C33E? Yes it is. It's the mike I traded my B&O BM5 to Predrag for. The BM5 is awesome, but I didn't previously have a microphone that does what the C33E can do. I've always liked XY stereo and this mike is very well suited to it. And very easy to use, too! Right now we're just running it through an SX-202 and an Audiophile 9624 card in my bandmate's basement, but I have plans to take it places with my MP-2NV and maybe the B67. ulysses |
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#30
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Is that the C33E?
Yes it is. Cool. I had my eye on one from a used gear dealer but just couldn't justify a 4th & 6th channel of 451/ck1 around here, since it didn't have variable patterns. But I bet it's going to give you some very nice drum tracks. Scott Fraser |
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#31
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"ScotFraser" wrote in message ...
Is that the C33E? Yes it is. Cool. I had my eye on one from a used gear dealer but just couldn't justify a 4th & 6th channel of 451/ck1 around here, since it didn't have variable patterns. But I bet it's going to give you some very nice drum tracks. Scott Fraser FWIW, I haven't used the C33, but I have used the C34 quite extensively. In my experiences it is quite different sounding than a pair of 451's, even though it has the same capsules... I can say the same about my 426 as well (which supposedly has 414 capsules). Anyways, the C-34 is a great sounding mic and I would expect the C33 would be just as good... --Ben -- Benjamin Maas Fifth Circle Audio Los Angeles, CA http://www.fifthcircle.com Please remove "Nospam" from address for replies |
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#32
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FWIW, I haven't used the C33, but I have used the C34 quite extensively. In
my experiences it is quite different sounding than a pair of 451's, even though it has the same capsules... I guess the housing & the fact of back to back capsules account for that, although I imagine the C34 has a different set of electronics than a 451, too. Scott Fraser |
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#33
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Nat wrote:
Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Use fewer mics. Kind regards Peter Larsen -- ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ******************************************* |
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#34
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In article , Nat
wrote: Just for the record I'd like to say that recording drums on two tracks is madness. Eight tracks are pretty limiting. Especially on the machines that let you just record on two tracks. Maybe if I was good at recording, good at listening to drums, I'd suffer less grief. But for me, the drums mix is always a bit sour in mixdown -- too much ride, too little snare, too little toms, etc. And I can't adjust anything, so the only choice is bringing my drummer back in, begging my roommate out of the house for a weekend, setting everything up again, and then spending another weekend recording only to find that the kick drum has disappeared. I'm going crazy. Back in the 80s and 90s there were a lot of us tracking drums with ever more mics. My record was 22 on a metal record; top and bottom mics on the toms (polarity flipped) with shell triggers keying gates etc. Looking back it all seems absurd. My favorite drum recordings continue to be a 2-3 mics in a nice room with high ceilings and of course a great player. I get the impression you are recording in a small room. Here is where close and multiple micing gets really ugly on anything heavier than some light brush work. My personal feeling about this kind of enviornment is to embrace it for what it is. A single radioshack PZM on the wall (any wall for that matter) will give you a fat and honest sound. It will sound distinct, organic and no one will confuse it with a machine. Try it and let your drummer hear it. He may want to adjust his dynamics but you may both be surprised. Then again it all depends on the song along with countless other variables. Just keep trying and dont rule anything out! There are no rules. Some of those mega-mic setups in the 90s actually worked on occasion;-) |
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#35
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Sonicanuck wrote:
Back in the 80s and 90s there were a lot of us tracking drums with ever more mics. My record was 22 on a metal record; top and bottom mics on the toms (polarity flipped) with shell triggers keying gates etc. Looking back it all seems absurd. My favorite drum recordings continue to be a 2-3 mics in a nice room with high ceilings and of course a great player. I get the impression you are recording in a small room. Here is where close and multiple micing gets really ugly on anything heavier than some light brush work. My personal feeling about this kind of enviornment is to embrace it for what it is. A single radioshack PZM on the wall (any wall for that matter) will give you a fat and honest sound. It will sound distinct, organic and no one will confuse it with a machine. Try it and let your drummer hear it. He may want to adjust his dynamics but you may both be surprised. Then again it all depends on the song along with countless other variables. Just keep trying and dont rule anything out! There are no rules. Some of those mega-mic setups in the 90s actually worked on occasion;-) I'm with you there. One of the cleanest drum recordings I've ever worked with was done in an 8x12 room with a 10' ceiling, assorted cheap sound deadening (read: cardboard egg cartons on parts of the walls), with a D112 on the kick, SM-58 on the snare, and a pair of RS PZMs, each attached to a 2x2' piece of plywood and those arranged in a V shape, hung about 4' above the drums, and panned hard left and right. The balance of the toms and overheads was near-perfect and the stereo image on cymbal washes and tom rolls was amazing. The 58 was blended in just enough to add some 'snap' and body to the snare. I've recently done an album with the same drummer (much newer and better-maintained kit, fortunately) in which we used 11 mics on the kit - double kicks, snare, one each for three rack toms and a floor tom, one each for hat and ride, and an overhead pair. I can't say that the drums turned out significantly better... sure there's more control, but sometimes the overabundance of sources just leads to cancellation and other problems too. --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0514-0, 04/05/2005 Tested on: 4/7/2005 3:28:00 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
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