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#41
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:40:22 -0500, Clytemnestra
wrote: That said, you can determine the input impedance fairly easily by feeding a 1 KHz tone through a resistor, and measuring the voltage before the resistor and after. I appreciate the advice, but as I said before I only have a digital multimeter at my disposal. It sounds like I'd have to bench the amp and connect it up to a tone or sine wave generator to do what you suggest. Am I interpreting you correctly? Sure - there are way to get test tones using either a CD player or a computer sound card output. http://www.esser.u-net.com/ttg.htm http://www.globalshareware.com/Mp3-Audio/Utilities-Plug-Ins/SigJenny-download.htm http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/testwavs/ The fact that your digital meter may not be well suited to measurements other than line frequency really don't matter much, as any error will be the same for the measurement of source voltage, dropping resistor voltage and voltage across the amp's input as long as you make these measurements at the same frequency. |
#42
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
That's precisely what I've been doing. It sounds quite good, but
I hear a little cancellation at about 100 Hz. I'm trying to determine if it is a characteristic of this type of speaker system, or if something may be out of adjustment. It doesn't matter. The adjustments (which include moving the speakers around!) are there to help you get the sound "right." Don't hesitate to experiment. |
#43
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
That's precisely what I've been doing. It sounds quite good, but
I hear a little cancellation at about 100 Hz. I'm trying to determine if it is a characteristic of this type of speaker system, or if something may be out of adjustment. It doesn't matter. The adjustments (which include moving the speakers around!) are there to help you get the sound "right." Don't hesitate to experiment. |
#44
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
That's precisely what I've been doing. It sounds quite good, but
I hear a little cancellation at about 100 Hz. I'm trying to determine if it is a characteristic of this type of speaker system, or if something may be out of adjustment. It doesn't matter. The adjustments (which include moving the speakers around!) are there to help you get the sound "right." Don't hesitate to experiment. |
#45
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
That's precisely what I've been doing. It sounds quite good, but
I hear a little cancellation at about 100 Hz. I'm trying to determine if it is a characteristic of this type of speaker system, or if something may be out of adjustment. It doesn't matter. The adjustments (which include moving the speakers around!) are there to help you get the sound "right." Don't hesitate to experiment. |
#46
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
"Clytemnestra" wrote in message
... [...] It sounds quite good, but I hear a little cancellation at about 100 Hz. I'm trying to determine if it characteristic of this type of speakers system, or if something may be out of adjustment. That has nothing to do with the impedance compensation switch. That's a placement issue. Move the speakers around (particularly the sub) and listen to the difference. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the audio booth making even bad news sound good |
#47
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
"Clytemnestra" wrote in message
... [...] It sounds quite good, but I hear a little cancellation at about 100 Hz. I'm trying to determine if it characteristic of this type of speakers system, or if something may be out of adjustment. That has nothing to do with the impedance compensation switch. That's a placement issue. Move the speakers around (particularly the sub) and listen to the difference. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the audio booth making even bad news sound good |
#48
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
"Clytemnestra" wrote in message
... [...] It sounds quite good, but I hear a little cancellation at about 100 Hz. I'm trying to determine if it characteristic of this type of speakers system, or if something may be out of adjustment. That has nothing to do with the impedance compensation switch. That's a placement issue. Move the speakers around (particularly the sub) and listen to the difference. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the audio booth making even bad news sound good |
#49
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
"Clytemnestra" wrote in message
... [...] It sounds quite good, but I hear a little cancellation at about 100 Hz. I'm trying to determine if it characteristic of this type of speakers system, or if something may be out of adjustment. That has nothing to do with the impedance compensation switch. That's a placement issue. Move the speakers around (particularly the sub) and listen to the difference. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the audio booth making even bad news sound good |
#50
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Clyt,
Here is the relevant passage from the owners manual: I agree with the others. This appears to be a passive crossover, which in my mind is a terrible idea. There may be some advantage to passive circuits (though I'm not aware of even one in hi quality audio), but surely any crossover whose frequency depends on the power amp's input impedance is a lame design. Really lame. As to your other question, Yes, you'll need some sort of sine wave generator or test tone CD. I suggest you try to find someone local to help you with this, perhaps at a ham radio club. --Ethan |
#51
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Clyt,
Here is the relevant passage from the owners manual: I agree with the others. This appears to be a passive crossover, which in my mind is a terrible idea. There may be some advantage to passive circuits (though I'm not aware of even one in hi quality audio), but surely any crossover whose frequency depends on the power amp's input impedance is a lame design. Really lame. As to your other question, Yes, you'll need some sort of sine wave generator or test tone CD. I suggest you try to find someone local to help you with this, perhaps at a ham radio club. --Ethan |
#52
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Clyt,
Here is the relevant passage from the owners manual: I agree with the others. This appears to be a passive crossover, which in my mind is a terrible idea. There may be some advantage to passive circuits (though I'm not aware of even one in hi quality audio), but surely any crossover whose frequency depends on the power amp's input impedance is a lame design. Really lame. As to your other question, Yes, you'll need some sort of sine wave generator or test tone CD. I suggest you try to find someone local to help you with this, perhaps at a ham radio club. --Ethan |
#53
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Clyt,
Here is the relevant passage from the owners manual: I agree with the others. This appears to be a passive crossover, which in my mind is a terrible idea. There may be some advantage to passive circuits (though I'm not aware of even one in hi quality audio), but surely any crossover whose frequency depends on the power amp's input impedance is a lame design. Really lame. As to your other question, Yes, you'll need some sort of sine wave generator or test tone CD. I suggest you try to find someone local to help you with this, perhaps at a ham radio club. --Ethan |
#54
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Ethan Winer wrote: Clyt, Here is the relevant passage from the owners manual: I agree with the others. This appears to be a passive crossover, which in my mind is a terrible idea. There may be some advantage to passive circuits (though I'm not aware of even one in hi quality audio), but surely any crossover whose frequency depends on the power amp's input impedance is a lame design. Really lame. Actually, there are several high-end products on the market sometimes referred to as "passive pre-amps" (a bit of an oxymoron I guess :-) These are basically minimalist volume controls with source switches for putting between sources and an amp. They are claimed to be able to be very effective with minimal impact on the sound signature if they are of quality components, built decent, AND are used in conjunction with appropriate components (e.g., very low output impedance source components, etc). I'm not advocating them, just indicating that there are high-quality passive components currently in the "high quality audio" market. However, in the case being discussed, I'm a little suspicious as well. If it is passive, it was likely to just simply things from a cost basis. - Jeff |
#55
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Ethan Winer wrote: Clyt, Here is the relevant passage from the owners manual: I agree with the others. This appears to be a passive crossover, which in my mind is a terrible idea. There may be some advantage to passive circuits (though I'm not aware of even one in hi quality audio), but surely any crossover whose frequency depends on the power amp's input impedance is a lame design. Really lame. Actually, there are several high-end products on the market sometimes referred to as "passive pre-amps" (a bit of an oxymoron I guess :-) These are basically minimalist volume controls with source switches for putting between sources and an amp. They are claimed to be able to be very effective with minimal impact on the sound signature if they are of quality components, built decent, AND are used in conjunction with appropriate components (e.g., very low output impedance source components, etc). I'm not advocating them, just indicating that there are high-quality passive components currently in the "high quality audio" market. However, in the case being discussed, I'm a little suspicious as well. If it is passive, it was likely to just simply things from a cost basis. - Jeff |
#56
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Ethan Winer wrote: Clyt, Here is the relevant passage from the owners manual: I agree with the others. This appears to be a passive crossover, which in my mind is a terrible idea. There may be some advantage to passive circuits (though I'm not aware of even one in hi quality audio), but surely any crossover whose frequency depends on the power amp's input impedance is a lame design. Really lame. Actually, there are several high-end products on the market sometimes referred to as "passive pre-amps" (a bit of an oxymoron I guess :-) These are basically minimalist volume controls with source switches for putting between sources and an amp. They are claimed to be able to be very effective with minimal impact on the sound signature if they are of quality components, built decent, AND are used in conjunction with appropriate components (e.g., very low output impedance source components, etc). I'm not advocating them, just indicating that there are high-quality passive components currently in the "high quality audio" market. However, in the case being discussed, I'm a little suspicious as well. If it is passive, it was likely to just simply things from a cost basis. - Jeff |
#57
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Ethan Winer wrote: Clyt, Here is the relevant passage from the owners manual: I agree with the others. This appears to be a passive crossover, which in my mind is a terrible idea. There may be some advantage to passive circuits (though I'm not aware of even one in hi quality audio), but surely any crossover whose frequency depends on the power amp's input impedance is a lame design. Really lame. Actually, there are several high-end products on the market sometimes referred to as "passive pre-amps" (a bit of an oxymoron I guess :-) These are basically minimalist volume controls with source switches for putting between sources and an amp. They are claimed to be able to be very effective with minimal impact on the sound signature if they are of quality components, built decent, AND are used in conjunction with appropriate components (e.g., very low output impedance source components, etc). I'm not advocating them, just indicating that there are high-quality passive components currently in the "high quality audio" market. However, in the case being discussed, I'm a little suspicious as well. If it is passive, it was likely to just simply things from a cost basis. - Jeff |
#58
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
However, in the case being discussed, I'm a little suspicious
as well. If it's passive, it was likely to just simply things from a cost basis. Most likely. But if all that's needed is a simple 6dB/8ve crossover, I'd rather achieve it with a high-quality film cap than by running the signal through a gain stage -- as good as those can be. |
#59
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
However, in the case being discussed, I'm a little suspicious
as well. If it's passive, it was likely to just simply things from a cost basis. Most likely. But if all that's needed is a simple 6dB/8ve crossover, I'd rather achieve it with a high-quality film cap than by running the signal through a gain stage -- as good as those can be. |
#60
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
However, in the case being discussed, I'm a little suspicious
as well. If it's passive, it was likely to just simply things from a cost basis. Most likely. But if all that's needed is a simple 6dB/8ve crossover, I'd rather achieve it with a high-quality film cap than by running the signal through a gain stage -- as good as those can be. |
#61
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
However, in the case being discussed, I'm a little suspicious
as well. If it's passive, it was likely to just simply things from a cost basis. Most likely. But if all that's needed is a simple 6dB/8ve crossover, I'd rather achieve it with a high-quality film cap than by running the signal through a gain stage -- as good as those can be. |
#62
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:53:14 GMT, Jeff Wiseman
wrote: Ethan Winer wrote: Clyt, Here is the relevant passage from the owners manual: I agree with the others. This appears to be a passive crossover, which in my mind is a terrible idea. There may be some advantage to passive circuits (though I'm not aware of even one in hi quality audio), but surely any crossover whose frequency depends on the power amp's input impedance is a lame design. Really lame. Actually, there are several high-end products on the market sometimes referred to as "passive pre-amps" (a bit of an oxymoron I guess :-) These are basically minimalist volume controls with source switches for putting between sources and an amp. They are claimed to be able to be very effective with minimal impact on the sound signature if they are of quality components, built decent, AND are used in conjunction with appropriate components (e.g., very low output impedance source components, etc). I'm not advocating them, just indicating that there are high-quality passive components currently in the "high quality audio" market. However, in the case being discussed, I'm a little suspicious as well. If it is passive, it was likely to just simply things from a cost basis. I use a passive controller, the *parts* cost close to $1,000.......... -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#63
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:53:14 GMT, Jeff Wiseman
wrote: Ethan Winer wrote: Clyt, Here is the relevant passage from the owners manual: I agree with the others. This appears to be a passive crossover, which in my mind is a terrible idea. There may be some advantage to passive circuits (though I'm not aware of even one in hi quality audio), but surely any crossover whose frequency depends on the power amp's input impedance is a lame design. Really lame. Actually, there are several high-end products on the market sometimes referred to as "passive pre-amps" (a bit of an oxymoron I guess :-) These are basically minimalist volume controls with source switches for putting between sources and an amp. They are claimed to be able to be very effective with minimal impact on the sound signature if they are of quality components, built decent, AND are used in conjunction with appropriate components (e.g., very low output impedance source components, etc). I'm not advocating them, just indicating that there are high-quality passive components currently in the "high quality audio" market. However, in the case being discussed, I'm a little suspicious as well. If it is passive, it was likely to just simply things from a cost basis. I use a passive controller, the *parts* cost close to $1,000.......... -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#64
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:53:14 GMT, Jeff Wiseman
wrote: Ethan Winer wrote: Clyt, Here is the relevant passage from the owners manual: I agree with the others. This appears to be a passive crossover, which in my mind is a terrible idea. There may be some advantage to passive circuits (though I'm not aware of even one in hi quality audio), but surely any crossover whose frequency depends on the power amp's input impedance is a lame design. Really lame. Actually, there are several high-end products on the market sometimes referred to as "passive pre-amps" (a bit of an oxymoron I guess :-) These are basically minimalist volume controls with source switches for putting between sources and an amp. They are claimed to be able to be very effective with minimal impact on the sound signature if they are of quality components, built decent, AND are used in conjunction with appropriate components (e.g., very low output impedance source components, etc). I'm not advocating them, just indicating that there are high-quality passive components currently in the "high quality audio" market. However, in the case being discussed, I'm a little suspicious as well. If it is passive, it was likely to just simply things from a cost basis. I use a passive controller, the *parts* cost close to $1,000.......... -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#65
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:53:14 GMT, Jeff Wiseman
wrote: Ethan Winer wrote: Clyt, Here is the relevant passage from the owners manual: I agree with the others. This appears to be a passive crossover, which in my mind is a terrible idea. There may be some advantage to passive circuits (though I'm not aware of even one in hi quality audio), but surely any crossover whose frequency depends on the power amp's input impedance is a lame design. Really lame. Actually, there are several high-end products on the market sometimes referred to as "passive pre-amps" (a bit of an oxymoron I guess :-) These are basically minimalist volume controls with source switches for putting between sources and an amp. They are claimed to be able to be very effective with minimal impact on the sound signature if they are of quality components, built decent, AND are used in conjunction with appropriate components (e.g., very low output impedance source components, etc). I'm not advocating them, just indicating that there are high-quality passive components currently in the "high quality audio" market. However, in the case being discussed, I'm a little suspicious as well. If it is passive, it was likely to just simply things from a cost basis. I use a passive controller, the *parts* cost close to $1,000.......... -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#66
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Jeff,
there are several high-end products Yes, I am fully aware of all the overpriced minimalist drek out there. I've seen one passive volume control that sells for $4500! The overwhelming problem with using passive components for that is you are at the mercy of the signal cables, er, "interconnects" to not reduce the high frequencies via capacitance. At least Manley has the common sense to add buffering on their Massive Passive equalizer. --Ethan |
#67
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Jeff,
there are several high-end products Yes, I am fully aware of all the overpriced minimalist drek out there. I've seen one passive volume control that sells for $4500! The overwhelming problem with using passive components for that is you are at the mercy of the signal cables, er, "interconnects" to not reduce the high frequencies via capacitance. At least Manley has the common sense to add buffering on their Massive Passive equalizer. --Ethan |
#68
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Jeff,
there are several high-end products Yes, I am fully aware of all the overpriced minimalist drek out there. I've seen one passive volume control that sells for $4500! The overwhelming problem with using passive components for that is you are at the mercy of the signal cables, er, "interconnects" to not reduce the high frequencies via capacitance. At least Manley has the common sense to add buffering on their Massive Passive equalizer. --Ethan |
#69
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Jeff,
there are several high-end products Yes, I am fully aware of all the overpriced minimalist drek out there. I've seen one passive volume control that sells for $4500! The overwhelming problem with using passive components for that is you are at the mercy of the signal cables, er, "interconnects" to not reduce the high frequencies via capacitance. At least Manley has the common sense to add buffering on their Massive Passive equalizer. --Ethan |
#70
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:31:56 -0500, "Ethan Winer" ethanw at
ethanwiner dot com wrote: Jeff, there are several high-end products Yes, I am fully aware of all the overpriced minimalist drek out there. I've seen one passive volume control that sells for $4500! The overwhelming problem with using passive components for that is you are at the mercy of the signal cables, er, "interconnects" to not reduce the high frequencies via capacitance. Not a problem. If you don't understand *system* design, then you shouldn't be messing with passives. I know of at least one commercial design (Audio Synthesis) which has hard-wired low-capacitance output cables for exactly this reason. At least Manley has the common sense to add buffering on their Massive Passive equalizer. Which makes it a basic lie - it's *not* passive. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#71
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:31:56 -0500, "Ethan Winer" ethanw at
ethanwiner dot com wrote: Jeff, there are several high-end products Yes, I am fully aware of all the overpriced minimalist drek out there. I've seen one passive volume control that sells for $4500! The overwhelming problem with using passive components for that is you are at the mercy of the signal cables, er, "interconnects" to not reduce the high frequencies via capacitance. Not a problem. If you don't understand *system* design, then you shouldn't be messing with passives. I know of at least one commercial design (Audio Synthesis) which has hard-wired low-capacitance output cables for exactly this reason. At least Manley has the common sense to add buffering on their Massive Passive equalizer. Which makes it a basic lie - it's *not* passive. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#72
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:31:56 -0500, "Ethan Winer" ethanw at
ethanwiner dot com wrote: Jeff, there are several high-end products Yes, I am fully aware of all the overpriced minimalist drek out there. I've seen one passive volume control that sells for $4500! The overwhelming problem with using passive components for that is you are at the mercy of the signal cables, er, "interconnects" to not reduce the high frequencies via capacitance. Not a problem. If you don't understand *system* design, then you shouldn't be messing with passives. I know of at least one commercial design (Audio Synthesis) which has hard-wired low-capacitance output cables for exactly this reason. At least Manley has the common sense to add buffering on their Massive Passive equalizer. Which makes it a basic lie - it's *not* passive. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#73
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:31:56 -0500, "Ethan Winer" ethanw at
ethanwiner dot com wrote: Jeff, there are several high-end products Yes, I am fully aware of all the overpriced minimalist drek out there. I've seen one passive volume control that sells for $4500! The overwhelming problem with using passive components for that is you are at the mercy of the signal cables, er, "interconnects" to not reduce the high frequencies via capacitance. Not a problem. If you don't understand *system* design, then you shouldn't be messing with passives. I know of at least one commercial design (Audio Synthesis) which has hard-wired low-capacitance output cables for exactly this reason. At least Manley has the common sense to add buffering on their Massive Passive equalizer. Which makes it a basic lie - it's *not* passive. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#74
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
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#76
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
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#77
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
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#78
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Stewart,
If you don't understand *system* design, then you shouldn't be messing with passives. I guess I just don't see the value of passive audio gear. I appreciate that reducing the number of devices in the chain is always a good idea when all else is equal. But in this case all else is decidely not equal. An active output can drive cables with no HF loss, and the low output impedance reduces or avoids altogether RFI and other interference problems. An active input can be balanced to reduce hum and RFI. Further, the obssession some people have to avoid adding 0.001% distortion seems silly given that all loudspeakers have 100 times more distortion. And any room you're likely to put speakers in has a response that varies by 20-30 dB throughout the entire low end. Which makes it a basic lie - it's *not* passive. As Paul explained, a passive device with input and output buffering can still legitimately be considered passive. Not to defend Manley. I have no use for tubes either. :-) --Ethan |
#79
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Stewart,
If you don't understand *system* design, then you shouldn't be messing with passives. I guess I just don't see the value of passive audio gear. I appreciate that reducing the number of devices in the chain is always a good idea when all else is equal. But in this case all else is decidely not equal. An active output can drive cables with no HF loss, and the low output impedance reduces or avoids altogether RFI and other interference problems. An active input can be balanced to reduce hum and RFI. Further, the obssession some people have to avoid adding 0.001% distortion seems silly given that all loudspeakers have 100 times more distortion. And any room you're likely to put speakers in has a response that varies by 20-30 dB throughout the entire low end. Which makes it a basic lie - it's *not* passive. As Paul explained, a passive device with input and output buffering can still legitimately be considered passive. Not to defend Manley. I have no use for tubes either. :-) --Ethan |
#80
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How Do I Determine A Power-Amp's Input Impedance?
Stewart,
If you don't understand *system* design, then you shouldn't be messing with passives. I guess I just don't see the value of passive audio gear. I appreciate that reducing the number of devices in the chain is always a good idea when all else is equal. But in this case all else is decidely not equal. An active output can drive cables with no HF loss, and the low output impedance reduces or avoids altogether RFI and other interference problems. An active input can be balanced to reduce hum and RFI. Further, the obssession some people have to avoid adding 0.001% distortion seems silly given that all loudspeakers have 100 times more distortion. And any room you're likely to put speakers in has a response that varies by 20-30 dB throughout the entire low end. Which makes it a basic lie - it's *not* passive. As Paul explained, a passive device with input and output buffering can still legitimately be considered passive. Not to defend Manley. I have no use for tubes either. :-) --Ethan |
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