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#1
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
On 17 Aug 2008 18:49:24 GMT, "Jacques E. Bouchard"
wrote: I shot a short video last month and although we took precautions by hanging blankets to "deaden" the room, and even though the sound seemed fine during recording, I noticed in post that there's still too much echo - in particular, the amount of echo is not consistent from one shot to the next depending on the angle and the position of the microphone. Since there's no point in crying over spilled milk (this was an amateur porject, and we're all learning from our mistakes), I'd like to try to fix this or at least minimize it. I searched and learned that removing echo is nearly impossible, but I'm open to all suggestions, including ADDING echo to some shots to at least make sound consistent throughout. I use Adobe Soundbooth and, to some extent, Adobe Audition. Thanks for any invaluable advice you may offer. I feel a re-recording session looming.... Anything else will be a bodge. Get it right. |
#2
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
Jacques E. Bouchard wrote:
I shot a short video last month and although we took precautions by hanging blankets to "deaden" the room, and even though the sound seemed fine during recording, I noticed in post that there's still too much echo - in particular, the amount of echo is not consistent from one shot to the next depending on the angle and the position of the microphone. That's why it's important for your boom op to keep the position identical from one shot to the next. Keep the distance as close as possible without getting the mike in the shot, but keep the distance as close to the same for shots within the same scene. Since there's no point in crying over spilled milk (this was an amateur porject, and we're all learning from our mistakes), I'd like to try to fix this or at least minimize it. I searched and learned that removing echo is nearly impossible, but I'm open to all suggestions, including ADDING echo to some shots to at least make sound consistent throughout. You cannot remove reverb. You CAN loop it all back in the studio under controlled conditions if you can get the actors back. You can also add reverb to the drier shots. You can also be creative with the musical bed to hide it... if the reverb tail drops down into the level of the musical bed quickly enough, people won't notice it. I use Adobe Soundbooth and, to some extent, Adobe Audition. Thanks for any invaluable advice you may offer. I wish I had better advice other than looping. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#3
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 19:24:57 +0000, Jacques E. Bouchard wrote:
Laurence Payne wrote in : I feel a re-recording session looming... Not an option. As I indicated in my original post, ADDING echo for consistency would be a better alternative. What were you recording the audio on? Some cameras have compression on their audio inputs which will bring up the room reverb. If the audio is uncompressed you could try some expansion. I've had luck with using quite an aggressive expander, and riding the expander threshold so it keeps biting at the right level despite the dialogue level changes. Follow it with your replacement reverb and it might sound ok. If there are any frequencies that the room is resonating at, then you could try pulling them down a bit with a parametric too. Try capturing a bit of the room reverb into noise reduction as well. If you abuse it a little it can work like a spectral gate. I think Adobe Audition come with a plugin that will do this. Some plugins will also gate if you use them without capturing a noise sample. Also, try a generous high pass to cut everything below speech frequencies. Ah, this is all advice for speech. If it's music then you are screwed. Good luck! jaybee |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
"Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote...
I shot a short video last month and although we took precautions by hanging blankets to "deaden" the room, and even though the sound seemed fine during recording, I noticed in post that there's still too much echo - in particular, the amount of echo is not consistent from one shot to the next depending on the angle and the position of the microphone. For future reference: 1) Select locations with sound in mind. Here is an excellent summary of things to remember: http://www.indyfilm.com/soundltr.pdf 2) Always use a dedicated sound person, even if recording single- system. This person's prime responsibility is to see that this kind of thing doesn't happen. Because you can see that is MUCH harder to fix in post-production that it would have been to prevent while shooting. 3) Monitor at all times on good, occluding headphones. NEVER take for granted that the sound is OK. It usually isn't. Recording sound without monitoring is like shooting without looking at the viewfinder/monitor. 4) Use appropriate microphones. Using long "shotgun" mics indoors often produces the symptoms you are hearing. Hypercardioids are more appropriate indoors. Long shot- gun mics are generally only effective outdoors. Since there's no point in crying over spilled milk (this was an amateur porject, and we're all learning from our mistakes), I'd like to try to fix this or at least minimize it. I searched and learned that removing echo is nearly impossible, but I'm open to all suggestions, including ADDING echo to some shots to at least make sound consistent throughout. Sure, go for it. You don't need our permission to experiment with adding reverb to try to "normalize" the shots. But I wouldn't have high expectations that it will work. An alternate solution (which was suggested by Laurence Payne, but misunderstood by you) is to "loop" the shots, where you have the actor(s) view the edited video and recreate their speech to be recorded in a good sound situation. Hollywood studios have special ADR (Automated Dialog Replacement) facilities just for this. I use Adobe Soundbooth and, to some extent, Adobe Audition. Not familiar with Soundbooth, but Audition has as many variations on synthetic reverb as likely anything available. You have literally dozens of parameters to adjust and 100s of thousands of variations to try. Another technique that might work (depending on exactly what your tracks sound like, which we haven't heard) is to *gate* the track to catch just the speech and attenuate the "room tone" in-between phrases. And finally, *masking* the undesired sound qualities with "background noise" and/or music is sometimes effective. Last weekend I participated (for the 3rd year) with a team doing the "48 Hour Film Project" here in our city. I let the other team members go out and shoot just to give them the experience. But then I have to deal with the audio (and video) that they bring back because I do the finish edit. I have used all of the suggested techniques when dealing with defective sound tracks. http://www.48hourfilm.com/ a lot of fun. :-) |
#5
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
"Richard Crowley" wrote in
: For future reference: 1) Select locations with sound in mind. Here is an excellent summary of things to remember: http://www.indyfilm.com/soundltr.pdf Given the no-budget production, we had to select the location based on availability. In retrospect, I wish I had hung more blankets. 2) Always use a dedicated sound person, even if recording single- system. This person's prime responsibility is to see that this kind of thing doesn't happen. Because you can see that is MUCH harder to fix in post-production that it would have been to prevent while shooting. I did have a dedicated sound person who had SOME experience, but not a lot. It was a volunteer project, so I was expecting some problems in post. 3) Monitor at all times on good, occluding headphones. NEVER take for granted that the sound is OK. It usually isn't. Recording sound without monitoring is like shooting without looking at the viewfinder/monitor. I had a very good pair of Audio Technica headphones (recommended by users here - thanks!) and a portable mixer. But I realize now that I may need a different mic for indoor shooting (thanks again guys). 4) Use appropriate microphones. Using long "shotgun" mics indoors often produces the symptoms you are hearing. Hypercardioids are more appropriate indoors. Long shot- gun mics are generally only effective outdoors. Any suggestions on a make/model? Something fairly inexpensive for small shoots, as I'd just rent (or hire someone with their own equipment) for larger projects. Sure, go for it. You don't need our permission to experiment with adding reverb to try to "normalize" the shots. But I wouldn't have high expectations that it will work. No, I doubt I'll very much like reverb throughout. But at least it'll be slightly better than inconsistent sound. An alternate solution (which was suggested by Laurence Payne, but misunderstood by you) is to "loop" the shots, where you have the actor(s) view the edited video and recreate their speech No, I understood what he meant. I don't really have the actors available for dubbing. It's a solution, but a remote one. http://www.48hourfilm.com/ a lot of fun. :-) Thanks for the link and the technical advice, very much appreciated. I love these small guerilla-filmmaking projects, even though they are problematic in post. Lets me give young people an opporutnity to get some experience, and the creative energy is high. jaybee |
#6
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
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#7
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
"Soundhaspriority" wrote in
news Jacques, Shotguns are echo-prone indoors. If the room is reasonably quiet, use a hypercardioid. Thanks Bob, I'm looking at some mics now (until I can get recommendations on a make/model). jaybee |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
philicorda wrote in
: What were you recording the audio on? Some cameras have compression on their audio inputs which will bring up the room reverb. It was directly to a Canon XH-A1. For larger shoots, I intend to use separate sound and a more competent sound person. Ah, this is all advice for speech. If it's music then you are screwed. All speech, fortunately. Thank you very much for your advice, I'll give it a try. jaybee |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
I shot a short video last month and although we took precautions by hanging
blankets to "deaden" the room, and even though the sound seemed fine during recording, I noticed in post that there's still too much echo - in particular, the amount of echo is not consistent from one shot to the next depending on the angle and the position of the microphone. Since there's no point in crying over spilled milk (this was an amateur porject, and we're all learning from our mistakes), I'd like to try to fix this or at least minimize it. I searched and learned that removing echo is nearly impossible, but I'm open to all suggestions, including ADDING echo to some shots to at least make sound consistent throughout. I use Adobe Soundbooth and, to some extent, Adobe Audition. Thanks for any invaluable advice you may offer. jaybee |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
"Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in : For future reference: 1) Select locations with sound in mind. Here is an excellent summary of things to remember: http://www.indyfilm.com/soundltr.pdf Given the no-budget production, we had to select the location based on availability. In retrospect, I wish I had hung more blankets. .....snip.... I love these small guerilla-filmmaking projects, even though they are problematic in post. Lets me give young people an opporutnity to get some experience, and the creative energy is high. jaybee If your best option is to even out the room echo you might want to try a convolution reverb. If someone dropped or clanked something while sound was rolling you may have a useful impulse to work with. Later... Ron Capik -- |
#11
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
Jacques E. Bouchard wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in 4) Use appropriate microphones. Using long "shotgun" mics indoors often produces the symptoms you are hearing. Hypercardioids are more appropriate indoors. Long shot- gun mics are generally only effective outdoors. Any suggestions on a make/model? Something fairly inexpensive for small shoots, as I'd just rent (or hire someone with their own equipment) for larger projects. Audio-Technica AT4053 would be my first suggestion on a budget. Rumor has it that they are getting to be difficult to find, though. The Oktava 012 with a hypercardioid capsule is okay, but Oktava's idea of a hypercardioid is pretty wide in comparison with A-Ts. For a shotgun, if you can't afford a 416, consider the ME-80. They sell for cheap and they are sort of mostly usable. A PX-12 battery should fit in one in place of the now-unavailable mercury stack they were designed for. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#12
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
Laurence Payne wrote in
: I feel a re-recording session looming... Not an option. As I indicated in my original post, ADDING echo for consistency would be a better alternative. jaybee |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 11:49:24 -0700, Jacques E. Bouchard wrote
(in article 2): I shot a short video last month and although we took precautions by hanging blankets to "deaden" the room, and even though the sound seemed fine during recording, I noticed in post that there's still too much echo - in particular, the amount of echo is not consistent from one shot to the next depending on the angle and the position of the microphone. ------------------------------snip------------------------------ I think this is among the hardest things to control in location sound recording. So much depends on the acoustics of the room, camera position, and actor movement, along with outside factors (air conditioning, traffic, airplanes, camera noise, etc.), it can be a nightmare to deal with. As other posters have suggested, microphone selection is a major factor. Hypercardioids like the Schoeps MK641 (expensive) and Sennheiser MKH50 (less expensive) can help control this to a degree, but a lot depends on the skill and experience of your boom operator. In my experience, shotgun mikes (Sennheiser 416, MKH60, etc.) don't work well in small rooms with reflective walls. Sound mixers choose mikes the way a great photographer chooses the right lens for a shot; there's an art to how they pick the right mike for a specific scene, and experience makes all the difference. Bear in mind there's a reason why good microphones are expensive. One common method used in TV -- particularly when two or more simultaneous cameras are used in fast-paced scenes -- is to plant wireless mikes on each speaking actor. The good news is that this helps "take the room out of the recording," which minimzes reverb and slap echo; the bad news is, it sounds artificial, like somebody talking into a closely-mounted microphone, as opposed to someone speaking in a real space. But if you're on a tight budget and can't rely on ADR later on to loop the bad lines, this may be your best option. (Once you're aware of the sound quality difference between a good boom and a wireless mike, it's very hard to watch many TV shows.) These books will be helpful to you: Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures: A Guide to the Invisible Art by John Purcell published by Focal Press [ISBN #0240809181] The Practical Art of Motion Picture Sound by David Yewdall published by Focal Press [ISBN #0240808657] Producing Great Sound for Digital Video by Jay Rose published by CMP Books [ISBN #157820208] Audio Postproduction for Digital Video by Jay Rose published by CMP Books [ISBN #1578201160] Sound for Digital Video by Tomlinson Holman published by Focal Press [ISBN #0240807200] Sound for Film and Television by Tomlinson Holman published by Focal Press [ISBN #0240804538] Sync Sound for DAT, DV, and DVD by Wolf Seeberg and 24P For Sound and Video Assist by Wolf Seeberg www.wolfvid.com Audio Bootcamp Field Guide by Ty Ford http://web.mac.com/tyreeford Guide to the Nagra 4.2 and Production Sound Recording by Fred Ginsburg published by Equipment Emporium [ISBN #0971394105] Purcell's book is recommended because it specifically deals with how to fix dialog problems in post, and also covers why the problems happen in the first place. Yewdall's book is a good overview of the entire process, though it mainly covers sound design and gathering sound effects, along with the final mix. Jay Rose's books are excellent for people shooting small projects on micro budgets, but the basic principles often apply to big projects as well. And Holman's books are used as standard college textbooks in quite a few film schools. Wolf Seeberg's books are more advanced, and are specialized guides on user setup and solving technical problems with digital gear on location. Ty Ford's book is short but to the point, and has a lot of very specific tips of use to beginners. Ford also has some very good mike reviews and demos on his site. Ginsberg's book is dated (early 1990s), but many of the important principles he talks about are still 100% valid today, particularly in terms of mike selection, booming technique, how to deal with difficult locations, and balancing multiple mikes between actors. (It's often available on eBay, and also used on Amazon.) The other books are available from major pro sound dealers like Coffey Sound and Location Sound Corp. in LA, Gotham Sound in NYC, and Trew Audio in Nashville & Toronto, as well as online booksellers like Amazon. You'll also find great ongoing discussions on the Usenet group rec.arts.movies.production sound, as well as Jeff Wexler's terrific discussion group at www.jwsound.net, elsewhere on the web. --MFW |
#14
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
"Marc Wielage" wrote ...
excellent suggestions, bibliography, book reviews, and resource directory snipped for brevity. Archive that post! Terrific info, Marc, thanks for taking the time to share it. The Jay Rose books are likely aimed more at the kind of experience and types of production that Jacques is dealing with right now. Recommended. Mr. Rose also is known to hang out in the production sound newsgroup (news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound) as do the authors of some of the other books suggested, and the some of the suggested vendors (reatil outlets and equipment manufacturers), and some of the sound mixers working on the productions you see in the theatre and on TV. |
#15
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
"Richard Crowley" wrote in news:6h096eFhu8l2U1
@mid.individual.net: "Marc Wielage" wrote ... excellent suggestions, bibliography, book reviews, and resource directory snipped for brevity. Archive that post! Terrific info, Marc, thanks for taking the time to share it. The Jay Rose books are likely aimed more at the kind of experience and types of production that Jacques is dealing with right now. Recommended. Mr. Rose also is known to hang out in the production sound newsgroup (news:rec.arts.movies.production.sound) as do the authors of some of the other books suggested, and the some of the suggested vendors (reatil outlets and equipment manufacturers), and some of the sound mixers working on the productions you see in the theatre and on TV. Thanks for the newsgroup heads-up, AND to Marc Wielage for his remarkable, excellent reply (which I've printed out and going to hand my local bookseller). That's the reason I like newsgroups: when you get past the few bad apples with anger issues and behavioral problems, you meet impassioned people who love to share their knowledge. And thanks again to everyone else who shared tips and advice. jaybee |
#16
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Dealing with excess echo in a video
Perhaps the best unit to try mitigating the reverb would be a Cedar
DNS 1000. It can work some miracles. Not all, but some. See http://www.cedar-audio.com/products/dns/dns.html Dave On Aug 17, 11:49*am, "Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote: I shot a short video last month and although we took precautions by hanging blankets to "deaden" the room, and even though the sound seemed fine during recording, I noticed in post that there's still too much echo - in particular, the amount of echo is not consistent from one shot to the next depending on the angle and the position of the microphone. Since there's no point in crying over spilled milk (this was an amateur porject, and we're all learning from our mistakes), I'd like to try to fix this or at least minimize it. I searched and learned that removing echo is nearly impossible, but I'm open to all suggestions, including ADDING echo to some shots to at least make sound consistent throughout. I use Adobe Soundbooth and, to some extent, Adobe Audition. Thanks for any invaluable advice you may offer. jaybee |
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