[muzician21]

I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get
how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing
protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant
among the staff at these places.

Seriously, wth?

[Geoff]

muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like.

Don't do that ! I had to go to the A+E to have a rolled up bus ticket
removed once !

geoff

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

muzician21 wrote:

I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[hank alrich]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

muzician21 wrote:

I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.

Hear, hear!!

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[muzician21]

On Jul 20, 5:11*am, (Adrian
Tuddenham) wrote:

If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. *If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.


In this case it just wouldn't have been practical, it was a fundraiser
for a local radio friend of the musicians who has cancer.

[cjt]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
muzician21 wrote:


I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?


If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.


Ultimately, that's the ONLY thing that will change things, but I'm not
optimistic. In 30 years, the majority of the populace will be deaf, and
wondering how they got that way.

[Mike Rivers]

cjt wrote:
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.

Ultimately, that's the ONLY thing that will change things, but I'm not
optimistic.

Has anyone here actually received a refund when leaving a concert and
complaining that it was too loud?


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
cjt wrote:
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.

Ultimately, that's the ONLY thing that will change things, but I'm not
optimistic.

Has anyone here actually received a refund when leaving a concert and
complaining that it was too loud?


I placed a complaint with Troy Savings Bank Music hall after a Norman
Blake/Doc Watson show I attended
I was in the balcony and the only sound was on the floor, all I heard was
echos and muddy spill from the floor
when I wrote them the response I got was to the effect, I was plain wrong,
the sound in the hall is perfect and they have no shortage of other buyers
for that seat
NO REFUND FOR YOU
never been back
George

[cjt]

Mike Rivers wrote:
cjt wrote:

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:


If you paid to go in, demand your money back and tell the organisers
why. If enough people did that. it would soon get the message through.


Ultimately, that's the ONLY thing that will change things, but I'm not
optimistic.


Has anyone here actually received a refund when leaving a concert and
complaining that it was too loud?


The closest I ever came was an offer of a seat in the back, where it
would take 30 seconds, rather than 15, to cause permanent hearing loss.

[Mike Rivers]

cjt wrote:

The closest I ever came was an offer of a seat in the back, where it
would take 30 seconds, rather than 15, to cause permanent hearing loss.

When someone comes up to me at the console and says it's too loud, I always
ask where they're sitting, and it's almost in a front row near a
speaker. I ask if
it's too loud where they're standing right now (at the console) and they
usually
say it's not. So I shrug and point to the nearest empty seat.

I'll tell you though, most of the live sound work that I do is for
traditional folk
festivals. These people play great music, but they're not well rehearsed
performers.
They're farmers and truck drivers and cooks and web site designers and
they play
for local dances in places that I only went into when I was much
younger. They
play loud and the dancers like it. Some have very good sounding and well
balanced recordings that I can listen to in my living room at a
civilized level and
enjoy.

But put them on stage in front of an audience of 500-5000 and the drums are
so incredibly loud that everything else has to be, too. It's a good
thing we usually
have a lot of headroom in our PA gear (and know how to use it).


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Dave]

On Jul 19, 9:15*pm, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get
how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing
protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant
among the staff at these places.

Seriously, wth?

loud music causes dry mouth, and thus more drink tabs?

[nandan21]

On Jul 20, 6:15*am, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get
how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing
protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant
among the staff at these places.

Seriously, wth?

It’s NOT the sound guy to be blamed for loudness. Lot of times I have
experienced that performers want audio to be loud (most of the times,
to the dismay of audience). Also, some of the dominating accompanying
musicians want their instrument to be heard over and above all. So
lots of factors, unless organiser, audience or band leader is vocal
enough and wants it to be turned down.

[Ron[_11_]]

nandan21 wrote:
On Jul 20, 6:15 am, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get
how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing
protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant
among the staff at these places.

Seriously, wth?

It’s NOT the sound guy to be blamed for loudness. Lot of times I have
experienced that performers want audio to be loud (most of the times,
to the dismay of audience). Also, some of the dominating accompanying
musicians want their instrument to be heard over and above all. So
lots of factors, unless organiser, audience or band leader is vocal
enough and wants it to be turned down.

I occasionally mix sound for a national student jazz orchestra. It's
just strategically placed mikes for solos - reeds and bones, and
vocals. Maybe seven or eight mikes in total. The only wedge on stage is
for the vocalist.
Before each concert, the band leader explains to the audience that "it`s
going to be loud - it`s not the sound engineers fault, it`s just _loud_"
and it is, but not in a bad way, it`s very dynamic, the quiet bits are
quiet and the loud bits are loud. I keep it all as acoustic as possible
because that`s how I believe it should be

Of course, these cats can play!

Ron(UK)

[Phildo]

"muzician21" wrote in message
...
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of "engineers" are
failed guitarists who got into doing sound when their bands never made it,
especially in bars and smaller clubs. Their hearing is shot and they like
things too loud. Used to come across it all the time in LA.

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like.

I remember doing Guilfest a few years ago when Chrissie Hinde from the
Pretenders went into her portacabin backstage to take a nap. She must have
used toilet paper to stuff her ears because when she came out a couple of
hours later she forgot to take it out and spent several minutes wandering
round backstage with toilet paper pigtails before someone told her.

Phildo

[thepaulthomas]

On Jul 21, 11:13*am, "Phildo" wrote:
"muzician21" wrote in message

...
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of "engineers" are
failed guitarists who got into doing sound when their bands never made it,
especially in bars and smaller clubs. Their hearing is shot and they like
things too loud. Used to come across it all the time in LA.
Phildo

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER! ! !

As someone that has been touring with bands off and on since 1995 I
have met _that_ soundguy hundreds of times. Ugh...

But as someone that has also mixed his fair share of small bar and
club shows in recent years I would also place a great deal of the
blame on young, inexperienced bands that are insanely loud in that
type of environment. The Bottom of the Hill in San Francisco is a
great little venue (roughly 300 capacity) but it is not at all
uncommon to get A-weighted SPL readings of 105-110 dB at the mix
position which is about 50 feet from the stage. Personally I find such
levels to be very uncomfortable and on the verge of physically painful
even while wearing earplugs. The best sounding rock shows I have ever
mixed in larger venues (1,000+) have always measured around 95dB, give
or take a few dB in either direction.

[Ron[_11_]]

thepaulthomas wrote:
On Jul 21, 11:13 am, "Phildo" wrote:
"muzician21" wrote in message

...
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of "engineers" are
failed guitarists who got into doing sound when their bands never made it,
especially in bars and smaller clubs. Their hearing is shot and they like
things too loud. Used to come across it all the time in LA.
Phildo

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER! ! !

As someone that has been touring with bands off and on since 1995 I
have met _that_ soundguy hundreds of times. Ugh...

But as someone that has also mixed his fair share of small bar and
club shows in recent years I would also place a great deal of the
blame on young, inexperienced bands that are insanely loud in that
type of environment. The Bottom of the Hill in San Francisco is a
great little venue (roughly 300 capacity) but it is not at all
uncommon to get A-weighted SPL readings of 105-110 dB at the mix
position which is about 50 feet from the stage. Personally I find such
levels to be very uncomfortable and on the verge of physically painful
even while wearing earplugs. The best sounding rock shows I have ever
mixed in larger venues (1,000+) have always measured around 95dB,


give or take a few dB in either direction.

Well a 'few db' can make a very big difference to the overall perceived
volume level!

Ron

[thepaulthomas]

On Jul 22, 1:36*am, Ron wrote:
thepaulthomas wrote:
On Jul 21, 11:13 am, "Phildo" wrote:
"muzician21" wrote in message

....
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a lot of "engineers" are
failed guitarists who got into doing sound when their bands never made it,
especially in bars and smaller clubs. Their hearing is shot and they like
things too loud. Used to come across it all the time in LA.
Phildo

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER! ! !

As someone that has been touring with bands off and on since 1995 I
have met _that_ soundguy hundreds of times. Ugh...

But as someone that has also mixed his fair share of small bar and
club shows in recent years I would also place a great deal of the
blame on young, inexperienced bands that are insanely loud in that
type of environment. The Bottom of the Hill in San Francisco is a
great little venue (roughly 300 capacity) but it is not at all
uncommon to get A-weighted SPL readings of 105-110 dB at the mix
position which is about 50 feet from the stage. Personally I find such
levels to be very uncomfortable and on the verge of physically painful
even while wearing earplugs. The best sounding rock shows I have ever
mixed in larger venues (1,000+) have always measured around 95dB,
give or take a few dB in either direction.

Well a 'few db' can make a very big difference to the overall perceived
volume level!

Ron

That is certainly true, Ron. My point is simply that even when
considering that change of a "few dB" the best sounding rock concerts
I have ever mixed in any size venue have not gone over 100 dB. That
includes concerts using enormous sound systems for covering tens of
thousands of people. And yet whenever I go to a local bar gig for
under 300 people I am encountering levels well over 100dB. Sometimes
the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB,
which is just downright crazy.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

thepaulthomas wrote:

[on variation across the room]

That is certainly true, Ron. My point is simply that even when
considering that change of a "few dB" the best sounding rock concerts
I have ever mixed in any size venue have not gone over 100 dB. That
includes concerts using enormous sound systems for covering tens of
thousands of people. And yet whenever I go to a local bar gig for
under 300 people I am encountering levels well over 100dB. Sometimes
the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB,
which is just downright crazy.

Again, I have said this a few times befo way long time ago I had the
liberty of running around in a tent at the Roskide Festiva with a handheld
Ivie set to C-weighted. Based on those measurements it is my opinion that
good housesound needs to be 10 dB louder than the stage SPL.

I don't know whether you would get that measurable difference in a room, but
I think it stands well as a principle in case the intention is that it shall
be the pa that defines the balance. In real life that generally translates
to: the guitar player defines the overall loudness. Which btw. has been the
reply I have gotten when complaining to the sound board operator .....

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Arkansan Raider]

thepaulthomas wrote:

Sometimes
the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB,
which is just downright crazy.

Oh, how I love in-ears.

You're absolutely right.

---Jeff

[Infiniti Sound]

On Jul 22, 12:35*pm, thepaulthomas
wrote:
And yet whenever I go to a local bar gig for
under 300 people I am encountering levels well over 100dB. Sometimes
the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB,
which is just downright crazy.

What people do not realize is that the 100db is now your starting
point for the mix volume. You can't have the balanced FOH mix softer
than the loudest thing on stage.

[Eeyore[_3_]]

muzician21 wrote:

I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

Incompetent or deaf sound engineers normally. Then again I don't know what
your definition of loud is. You might also be surprised how well the ear
tolerates moderately loud music. Hearing damage figures are based on
industrial noise which has a VERY different character. I could get
technical here if you want.

Graham


--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious
adjustment to my email address

[Engineer[_2_]]

On Jul 19, 9:15*pm, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get
how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing
protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant
among the staff at these places.

Seriously, wth?

If I know I'm going to be stuck in such places I take my molded in-ear
earplugs with me (I use them for shooting... er, not pianists!
Skeet.)
I suspect the reason for "too loud" is that this "music" (for want of
a better word) is allegedly "enhanced" by non-linear distortion in the
ear at very high SPL's (like guitar "fuzz"?) Of course, it's very
damaging to the ears of all parties but they won't know until later in
life.
I have even used these earplugs is Greek restaurents that have a live
bouzouki band playing - very restful, and the lamb chops taste even
better!
On a few ocasions I've used these earplugs in movie theatres (mostly
for action movies) where, amazingly, they seem to make the sound more
accurate.
Cheers,
Roger

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Jul 19, 7:15 pm, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get
how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing
protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant
among the staff at these places.

Seriously, wth?

I went to a concert in Las Vegas last Saturday night. ZZ Top opened
for Aerosmith.
I heard ZZ many years ago in a venue not known for good sound - U of
Montana Adams Center.
The kick drum at that concert was so loud that the vocals and guitars
were barely heard.

I expected better at the Las Vegas Concert at the MGM Grand arena. IT
WAS WORSE!!.

The SPL must have been around 130dB and all I could hear was the kick
drum. A constant rumble with no definition. I spent the duration of
their set in the hallway with earplugs in. There was no place that the
sound was intelligible while the drums were playing.

Aerosmith came on and though the kick drum was louder than required
for a good mix, The sound was good in some sections of the room but
not where I was sitting, which was 45 degrees off the stage and about
15 rows up from the floor. I'd give their performance an A- and the
sound a B-. It was still too loud bot not anywhere near the level that
ZZ Top played at.

I think th reason that the venue made us pour our bottled water into
cups before entering the arena was so that they wouldn't be thrown at
the FOH desk.

Biggest waste of $200 I ever spent.

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

wrote in message
...
On Jul 19, 7:15 pm, muzician21 wrote:
I was at a fundraiser at a bar tonight, and it made me once again
wonder what is this code of live sound in every bar, lounge, honky
tonk everywhere that the music has to be at least 20 db over what's
necessary to cause hearing damage, with bass aimed at gelatinizing
vital organs?

I must have hearing far more sensitive than the average person, I
*can't* go into one of these places without wearing earplugs or some
homemade facsimile - rolled up toilet paper or the like. I don't get
how it doesn't bother the many people who listen to it without hearing
protection. For that matter, premature hearing loss must be rampant
among the staff at these places.

Seriously, wth?

I went to a concert in Las Vegas last Saturday night. ZZ Top opened
for Aerosmith.
I heard ZZ many years ago in a venue not known for good sound - U of
Montana Adams Center.
The kick drum at that concert was so loud that the vocals and guitars
were barely heard.

I expected better at the Las Vegas Concert at the MGM Grand arena. IT
WAS WORSE!!.

The SPL must have been around 130dB and all I could hear was the kick
drum. A constant rumble with no definition. I spent the duration of
their set in the hallway with earplugs in. There was no place that the
sound was intelligible while the drums were playing.

Aerosmith came on and though the kick drum was louder than required
for a good mix, The sound was good in some sections of the room but
not where I was sitting, which was 45 degrees off the stage and about
15 rows up from the floor. I'd give their performance an A- and the
sound a B-. It was still too loud bot not anywhere near the level that
ZZ Top played at.

I think th reason that the venue made us pour our bottled water into
cups before entering the arena was so that they wouldn't be thrown at
the FOH desk.

Biggest waste of $200 I ever spent.

I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of a
12,000 seat arena
Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears
Gorge

[Phildo]

"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message
m...
I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of
a 12,000 seat arena
Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears

I walked out of a U2 concert a couple of years ago because my ears were
about to start bleeding. I don't know who was at FOH but I think it must
have been a deaf plumber called in to unblock a drain who took a wrong turn
and ended up at the FOH position.

Phildo

[Wecan do it]

Last year I went to see the color purple at the fox theater in
Atlanta. The sound system was terrific.

The mixer guy(s) had to be deaf. He had like 30 people on
stage singing with wireless mics and kept the same volume per
person for when there was one or thirty people singing. In
mass the 30 people could blow an eardrum. Ruined the play for
me. Where do they find these jackass mixers.

Unfortunately I have to go to see 42nd street at the same
theater on Saturday. I hope they found someone who understands
entertainment this year.


peace
dawg

[Joe Kotroczo]

On 28/07/09 23:43, in article ,
"Phildo" wrote:


"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message
m...
I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of
a 12,000 seat arena
Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears

I walked out of a U2 concert a couple of years ago because my ears were
about to start bleeding. I don't know who was at FOH but I think it must
have been a deaf plumber called in to unblock a drain who took a wrong turn
and ended up at the FOH position.

Wasn't that how you got a job once? ;-)

--
Joe Kotroczo

[McSteve]

"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote
I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of
a 12,000 seat arena
Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears


I refused to work a couple of Blues Traveler gigs because they suck.
I have never walked *in to* a Bowie show because I find him irrelevant.

I've seen Zappa many times. He was brilliant, amusing, and quite
entertaining.
My favorite shows were with the original Mothers. Didn't like the "Flo and
Eddie"
version of his band.

--
Steve snip McQ

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , McSteve wrote:
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote
I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of
a 12,000 seat arena
Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears

I refused to work a couple of Blues Traveler gigs because they suck.

I have never refused to work with a group because they sucked. I have used
it as an opportunity to raise my rates or add PIA charges, though.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Billy K.]

On Aug 3, 10:23 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
In article , McSteve wrote:
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote
I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of
a 12,000 seat arena
Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears

I refused to work a couple of Blues Traveler gigs because they suck.

I have never refused to work with a group because they sucked. I have used
it as an opportunity to raise my rates or add PIA charges, though.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Blues Traveler sounded pretty good when I mixed them outside for
TV, and the FOH consisted of my air mix through two JBL EON 12's on
sticks. g And they were great sports even though I cut down
their input list for the 5 or so songs considerably. Hey, it was a
small Neve.

Most bands I find are pretty trusting of the people that support
them - and they have to be really. You need to have faith in the
people you work with or you can't accomplish anything great. The
better performers I have found have a pretty good sense of whether
people are really there for them or not - but nevertheless the show
must go on. You do get a few artists that are obsessive in needing to
control everything, and it's their work that I have eventually found
to be inevitably boringly flat. Even if they were once, say mmm,
Humble as Pie?

I hate In Ear Monitors, I think they widen, rather then diminish,
the distance between a performer and the audience. And the artificial
reality they put the artist in can damage performance dynamics. And it
can make singing introverted as well, like the worst "studio recording
with headphones" effect.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[WillStG]

On Aug 3, 10:23 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

In article , McSteve wrote:
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote
I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of
a 12,000 seat arena
Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears

I refused to work a couple of Blues Traveler gigs because they suck.

I have never refused to work with a group because they sucked. I have used
it as an opportunity to raise my rates or add PIA charges, though.
--scott


Blues Traveler sounded pretty good when I mixed them outside for
TV, and the FOH consisted of my air mix through two JBL EON 12's on
sticks. g And they were great sports even though I cut down
their input list for the 5 or so songs considerably. Hey, it was a
small Neve.

Most bands I find are pretty trusting of the people that support
them - and they have to be really. You need to have faith in the
people you work with or you can't accomplish anything great. The
better performers I have found have a pretty good sense of whether
people are really there for them or not - but nevertheless the show
must go on. You do get a few artists that are obsessive in needing to
control everything, and it's their work that I have eventually found
to be inevitably boringly flat. Even if they were once, say mmm,
Humble as Pie?

I hate In Ear Monitors, I think they widen, rather then diminish,
the distance between a performer and the audience. And the artificial
reality they put the artist in can damage performance dynamics. And it
can make singing introverted as well, like the worst "studio recording
with headphones" effect.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

NOt cross posted to aapls.
On Mon 2037-Aug-03 10:23, Scott Dorsey writes:
I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of
a 12,000 seat arena
I refused to work a couple of Blues Traveler gigs because they suck.

I have never refused to work with a group because they sucked. I
have used it as an opportunity to raise my rates or add PIA charges,
though.

Ditto here. Karaoke, club dj's, etc. are always almost
double price, or were when I did a live sr rig. I found all sorts of service charges, etc. to tack on. Usually that
meant they went somewhere else for the gig, but every once
in awhile when I"d get the bottom of the barrel I"d at least get paid, or stay home.

I used to refuse volunteer gigs if they had karaoke, club
dj's, rappers, etc.

Regards,
Richard
.... IF you suck louder won't help.
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[Denny Strauser[_2_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
I have never refused to work with a group because they sucked. I have used
it as an opportunity to raise my rates or add PIA charges, though.
--scott

I have never refused to work for a band, I just book another show if I
don't like the band.

-Denny

[Denny Strauser[_2_]]

George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:
I walked out of Blues Traveler due to obnoxious volume at the very rear of a
12,000 seat arena
Iwalk out of David Bowie and Frank Zappa cause the shows bored me to tears
Gorge

I walked out on a band - twice - who I was hired to mix (exclusive
agreement for my services) ... club gigs mostly. Literally walked out
the front door. My sound system sitting there. I moved the faders &
knobs, but heard no difference because the stage volume was more than my
system was putting out. I blew sub, low & mid drivers, but never noticed
because I couldn't hear it over stage volume. I bought a bigger system
thinking I could keep up to them, then blew all my horns the first time
I used it.

I saw a George Clinton P-Funk show at Penn State; it was so loud, I
moved as far away from the stage as I could get & it was still too loud.
I worked a show with them years later & it was 120db at FOH from the
first downbeat. It didn't get any better. I had my earplugs in all day.
What was amazing is that people were standing right in front of the
speakers grooving to the "feel" .... obviously enjoying the permanent
hearing damage.

When I started playing in bands, my parents used to tell me; "It's too
loud & all sounds the same." I never thought I'd grow up to be like that
..... but ..... Don't get me started .......... oh, you already did.

I've walked out on two other shows that I wasn't working. Dave Matthews
& Steve Miller. I couldn't hear the band over the audience singing
along. The saving grace was that I hadn't paid to be there.

-Denny

[William Sommerwerck]

I saw a George Clinton P-Funk show at Penn State; it was so loud, I
moved as far away from the stage as I could get & it was still too loud.
I worked a show with them years later & it was 120dB at FOH from the
first downbeat. It didn't get any better. I had my earplugs in all day.
What was amazing is that people were standing right in front of the
speakers grooving to the "feel"... obviously enjoying the permanent
hearing damage.

This is the kind of story that makes classical snobs such as myself say
"See? This proves that the music isn't any good. Or that the listeners don't
understand music on any level beyond "the beat". Or both."

The post-War generation's general inability to sit quietly and listen
attentively to music with some degree of subtlety (this includes a lot of
jazz) is indicative of a society that has rejected subtlety of thought.

[Phildo]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
I saw a George Clinton P-Funk show at Penn State; it was so loud, I
moved as far away from the stage as I could get & it was still too loud.
I worked a show with them years later & it was 120dB at FOH from the
first downbeat. It didn't get any better. I had my earplugs in all day.
What was amazing is that people were standing right in front of the
speakers grooving to the "feel"... obviously enjoying the permanent
hearing damage.

This is the kind of story that makes classical snobs such as myself say
"See? This proves that the music isn't any good. Or that the listeners
don't
understand music on any level beyond "the beat". Or both."

The post-War generation's general inability to sit quietly and listen
attentively to music with some degree of subtlety (this includes a lot of
jazz) is indicative of a society that has rejected subtlety of thought.

That is one of the most closed-minded, elitist, snobbish and idiotic things
I have ever seen on usenet. It's like an Italian saying that Italian cooking
is the only real food, an art critic saying only one particular style of art
is really art or a xtian saying theirs is the only true god.

Different people listen to different music for different things. Some like
it to dance to, others like it in he background at functions as sonic
wallpaper, others use it as part of their religious rituals etc etc.

Personally I think your head is so far up your arse you can see the back of
your teeth.

Phildo

[Richard Crowley]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote ...
I saw a George Clinton P-Funk show at Penn State; it was so loud, I
moved as far away from the stage as I could get & it was still too loud.
I worked a show with them years later & it was 120dB at FOH from the
first downbeat. It didn't get any better. I had my earplugs in all day.
What was amazing is that people were standing right in front of the
speakers grooving to the "feel"... obviously enjoying the permanent
hearing damage.

This is the kind of story that makes classical snobs such as myself say
"See? This proves that the music isn't any good. Or that the listeners
don't
understand music on any level beyond "the beat". Or both."

The post-War generation's general inability to sit quietly and listen
attentively to music with some degree of subtlety (this includes a lot of
jazz) is indicative of a society that has rejected subtlety of thought.

Hear here! Did you bribe Phildo to demonstrate the behavior? :-)

[hank alrich]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

I saw a George Clinton P-Funk show at Penn State; it was so loud, I
moved as far away from the stage as I could get & it was still too loud.
I worked a show with them years later & it was 120dB at FOH from the
first downbeat. It didn't get any better. I had my earplugs in all day.
What was amazing is that people were standing right in front of the
speakers grooving to the "feel"... obviously enjoying the permanent
hearing damage.

This is the kind of story that makes classical snobs such as myself say
"See? This proves that the music isn't any good. Or that the listeners don't
understand music on any level beyond "the beat". Or both."

The post-War generation's general inability to sit quietly and listen
attentively to music with some degree of subtlety (this includes a lot of
jazz) is indicative of a society that has rejected subtlety of thought.

Have you read _Dancing in the Streets: A History of Collective Joy_
by Barbara Ehrenreich?

Uptight white people put pews in churches to keep people from dancing.

The music I like is the music I like. That doesn't make it good or bad,
irrespective of whether or not I am a snob. Sitting and listening is not
an activity superior to dancing.

Mind you that I do think much of goes on at huge concerts has nothing to
do with the music and everything to do with the scene.

Subtlety of though has never been a favored attribute among the masses.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[muzician21]

On Aug 4, 7:47*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

This is the kind of story that makes classical snobs such as myself say
"See? This proves that the music isn't any good. Or that the listeners don't
understand music on any level beyond "the beat". Or both."


I'm curious what someone like Quincy Jones - who I imagine has
forgotten more about music than most here and who has worked in a wide
variety of musical styles would have to say about your above
statement.

Or ditto Leonard Bernstein.


The post-War generation's general inability to sit quietly and listen
attentively to music with some degree of subtlety


Wow, sweeping generalizations much? So no member of the *numerous*
generations that have come since "the war" - can sit and listen to
music. Wonder who's been buying all those concert tickets at various
venues the world over, who's been keeping PBS on the air.

(this includes a lot of
jazz) is indicative of a society that has rejected subtlety of thought.


I'm not aware that the masses have ever been guilty of subtlety of
thought. But certain European nations from which much of classical
musical originated also gave us the human atrocities of the 30's and
40's. Not much "subtlety of thought" involved in trying to exterminate
a large segment of the world's population.


No it's not. It's saying what it says -- that people who listen to
outrageously loud music, simply for the beat, are not people with any taste
judgment that should be respected vis-a-vis music.


The loud part I'm not keen on but I'd be more inclined to find
credible someone who "understands" a wide gamut of music.


Different people listen to different music for different things.

A person "boppin' to the beat" isn't _listening_ to the muisc.


You seem to be oblivious to the concept that different kinds of music
fulfill different roles.

By the way, as far as "subtlety of music" - it isn't limited to the
realms of classical and jazz. Think you've got the chops to stand on
stage with a good bluegrass band? Ever heard Alison Krauss and Union
Station?

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

The post-War generation's general inability to sit quietly and listen
attentively to music with some degree of subtlety (this includes a lot of
jazz) is indicative of a society that has rejected subtlety of thought.

I think you are confusing cause and effect here.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."