Anyone know what kind of a job it would be to install the optional digital
optical imput on a Wadia 301 Cd Player? I see one at a currently great price
but need that input to use it w/o a preamp but to run my DVD player thru
it. If it can be done for under a hundred dollars at any competent service
bench that's good news .If its a much more costly job this bargain begins
to lose its value.

Nobody? or is it my name....The unit as you may or may not knowis designed
with D/O input as an option so i imagine, and i have a wild imagination,
that it shouldn't be much more of a mater than buying the part and nestling
it in its prepared location. It would be nice if it could simply be plugged
into a slot but even if it requires soldering .. ohhh never mind.



"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
...
Anyone know what kind of a job it would be to install the optional
digital
optical imput on a Wadia 301 Cd Player? I see one at a currently great
price
but need that input to use it w/o a preamp but to run my DVD player thru
it. If it can be done for under a hundred dollars at any competent
service
bench that's good news .If its a much more costly job this bargain begins
to lose its value.

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote ...
Nobody? or is it my name....The unit as you may or may not knowis
designed
with D/O input as an option so i imagine, and i have a wild
imagination,
that it shouldn't be much more of a mater than buying the part and
nestling
it in its prepared location. It would be nice if it could simply be
plugged
into a slot but even if it requires soldering .. ohhh never mind.

Perhaps nobody can figure why a CD player needs a digital
(or any kind of ) *IN*PUT?

Sure, any competent electronics tech can add a Toslink optical
input or output to any equipment that has S/PDIF with $5 of
parts (+ whatever they might charge for their labor, etc.) It
seems trivial. A tech who couldn't do this would not be one
I would trust.




"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
...
Anyone know what kind of a job it would be to install the optional
digital
optical imput on a Wadia 301 Cd Player? I see one at a currently
great
price
but need that input to use it w/o a preamp but to run my DVD player
thru
it. If it can be done for under a hundred dollars at any competent
service
bench that's good news .If its a much more costly job this bargain
begins
to lose its value.

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote ...
Nobody? or is it my name....The unit as you may or may not knowis
designed
with D/O input as an option so i imagine, and i have a wild
imagination,
that it shouldn't be much more of a mater than buying the part and
nestling
it in its prepared location. It would be nice if it could simply be
plugged
into a slot but even if it requires soldering .. ohhh never mind.

Perhaps nobody can figure why a CD player needs a digital
(or any kind of ) *IN*PUT?

Sure, any competent electronics tech can add a Toslink optical
input or output to any equipment that has S/PDIF with $5 of
parts (+ whatever they might charge for their labor, etc.) It
seems trivial. A tech who couldn't do this would not be one
I would trust.




"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
...
Anyone know what kind of a job it would be to install the optional
digital
optical imput on a Wadia 301 Cd Player? I see one at a currently
great
price
but need that input to use it w/o a preamp but to run my DVD player
thru
it. If it can be done for under a hundred dollars at any competent
service
bench that's good news .If its a much more costly job this bargain
begins
to lose its value.






The reason for the INPUT is when using the CD Player directly into a Power
amp and wanting to use a DVD player with Digital Optical OUTPUT without a
preamp or other line stage. The CD player i'm looking at will with the
Toslink installed accept the DVD players audio signal enableing me to enjoy
it thru the main system.

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote ...
Nobody? or is it my name....The unit as you may or may
not knowis designed
with D/O input as an option so i imagine, and i have a
wild imagination,
that it shouldn't be much more of a mater than buying
the part and nestling
it in its prepared location. It would be nice if it
could simply be plugged
into a slot but even if it requires soldering .. ohhh
never mind.

Perhaps nobody can figure why a CD player needs a digital
(or any kind of ) *IN*PUT?

I suspect that he's trying to exploit the defective-as-designed Wadia CD
player's DACs as separate devices.


Sure, any competent electronics tech can add a Toslink
optical input or output to any equipment that has S/PDIF
with $5 of parts (+ whatever they might charge for their
labor, etc.) It seems trivial. A tech who couldn't do
this would not be one I would trust.

It may not be that easy because the digital circuits in a CD player are part
of a massive feedback loop that includes the transport's spindle motor.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote ...
Nobody? or is it my name....The unit as you may or may
not knowis designed
with D/O input as an option so i imagine, and i have a
wild imagination,
that it shouldn't be much more of a mater than buying
the part and nestling
it in its prepared location. It would be nice if it
could simply be plugged
into a slot but even if it requires soldering .. ohhh
never mind.

Perhaps nobody can figure why a CD player needs a digital
(or any kind of ) *IN*PUT?

I suspect that he's trying to exploit the defective-as-designed Wadia CD
player's DACs as separate devices.


Sure, any competent electronics tech can add a Toslink
optical input or output to any equipment that has S/PDIF
with $5 of parts (+ whatever they might charge for their
labor, etc.) It seems trivial. A tech who couldn't do
this would not be one I would trust.

It may not be that easy because the digital circuits in a CD player are
part
of a massive feedback loop that includes the transport's spindle motor.



why do you say the Wadia is defective as designed? I have no experience
with them but the reviews all seem to when combined with the fact i can run
it straight into the amp make it seem right for me.

Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:


why do you say the Wadia is defective as designed? I have no experience
with them but the reviews all seem to when combined with the fact i can run
it straight into the amp make it seem right for me.

You can run any CD player directly into an amp, including the $20
portables at Target. Why is that a feature?

//Walt

"Walt" wrote in message
...
Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:


why do you say the Wadia is defective as designed? I have no
experience
with them but the reviews all seem to when combined with the fact i can
run
it straight into the amp make it seem right for me.

You can run any CD player directly into an amp, including the $20
portables at Target. Why is that a feature?

//Walt

How about volume control.If the cd player has no volume just because it
will deliver some signal thru the output of the amp doesn't do alot of good
if its set to one level and that level is either max or min. I of course
could buy a preamp and get a CD player without volume control and that
would obviate the need for the cd player to have a digital input thru which
i might run my dvd player as the preamp would allow that. So to sum it up;
I have a poweramp( BAT VK-200), and a pair of speakers(Hales Revelation
Three) and i want to play CDs so i need a aplyer. I want one of substantial
quality both in build and performace capability( upsampling for instance).
Several exists which would alow me to run them direct into the Amp and also
run the DVD(audio signal) player i have.I see one on a popular auction site
but i have no confidence in the sellers integrity based on his lack of
feedback and his cryptical and incomplete reply to several emails.The
answer to the original question will serve in my continued search for the
right component to complete this system.

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote ...
Nobody? or is it my name....The unit as you may or may
not knowis designed
with D/O input as an option so i imagine, and i have a
wild imagination,
that it shouldn't be much more of a mater than buying
the part and nestling
it in its prepared location. It would be nice if it
could simply be plugged
into a slot but even if it requires soldering ..
ohhh never mind.

Perhaps nobody can figure why a CD player needs a
digital (or any kind of ) *IN*PUT?

I suspect that he's trying to exploit the
defective-as-designed Wadia CD player's DACs as separate
devices.


Sure, any competent electronics tech can add a Toslink
optical input or output to any equipment that has S/PDIF
with $5 of parts (+ whatever they might charge for their
labor, etc.) It seems trivial. A tech who couldn't do
this would not be one I would trust.

It may not be that easy because the digital circuits in
a CD player are part of a massive feedback loop that
includes the transport's spindle motor.

why do you say the Wadia is defective as designed?

Their strange ideas about what constitutes a proper reconstruction filter.

I have no experience with them but the reviews all seem to
when combined with the fact i can run it straight into
the amp make it seem right for me.

Don't be deceived by the snake-oil claims that Wadia makes about the
purported unique goodness of their digtial volume control.

Digital volume controls aren't rocket science, and neither is running a CD
player into a power amp without a full-house preamp. For the latter, please
consider the "passive preamp", "passive controller" or stand alone volume
control.

Here's an interesting example of a passive preamp:

http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K8022

http://www.apogeekits.com/preamp.htm

others:

http://hjem.get2net.dk/aaholm_audio/...Pre/PasPre.htm

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news

Here's an interesting example of a passive preamp:

http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K8022

http://www.apogeekits.com/preamp.htm

others:

http://hjem.get2net.dk/aaholm_audio/...Pre/PasPre.htm

added:

http://sound.westhost.com/project01.htm

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news

Here's an interesting example of a passive preamp:

http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K8022

http://www.apogeekits.com/preamp.htm

others:

http://hjem.get2net.dk/aaholm_audio/...Pre/PasPre.htm

added:

http://sound.westhost.com/project01.htm


Would there be any reason i couldn't find such a device with balanced in
and outputs if i have an amp with only balanced inputs and find a CD player
that utilizes balanced outputs so the whole system can use the same kind
of in/outs? If the benefit is either imaginary or inconsequential that's
another thing then.

Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:
The reason for the INPUT is when using the CD Player directly into a Power
amp and wanting to use a DVD player with Digital Optical OUTPUT without a
preamp or other line stage. The CD player i'm looking at will with the
Toslink installed accept the DVD players audio signal enableing me to enjoy
it thru the main system.

Well, assuming I have parsed your rather bizarre grammar to mean:

"I want to play connect other digital sources, such as a DVD
player,
directly to my power amp, by using the internal electronics of the
CD
player to convert the digital data stream to analog,"

you're asking for something that's nigh on impossible without a very
substantial amount of re-engineering.

You can look at the basic operation of the CD player as having two
parts: 1) the mechanical player mechanism, including the read and
decode electronics and 2) the digitial-to-analg converter (DAC).

In an integrated player like the Wadia (if they did it right), the
master
of the whole process is the DAC. It rquires samples to show up at
specific intervals, and it ensures that this happens by controlling the
rate at whoh the player mechanism reads data off the CD. There is,
in short, a very tight intergratiuon between the operation of these two
major functions, with the DAC being the master.

What YOU want to do is something entirely different. When you talk
about an external source, like a DVD player, there is no way any
external DAC can control the rate the data is read from the source,
so it must use different methods to keep in sample synchronization
with what is, in essence, an asynchronous data stream.

In other words, unlike the Wadia, where the DAC is the master and
the transport is the slave, you want the transport to be the master and
the DAC to be the slave/.

The internal DAC of the Wadia or any other CD player doesn't work
that way, and can't be made to work that way.

Now, there ARE external DACs that do precisely what you want, and
can even handle multiple sources including the digital output of the
Wadia, so that you can defer the D/A conversion until just before the
input to the power amp, if that's your desire.

If that's NOT your desire, you're going to have to state it more
clearly
than you have thus far.

Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:
How about volume control.If the cd player has no volume just because it
will deliver some signal thru the output of the amp doesn't do alot of good
if its set to one level and that level is either max or min. I of course
could buy a preamp and get a CD player without volume control and that
would obviate the need for the cd player to have a digital input thru which
i might run my dvd player as the preamp would allow that.

Yup, so a preamp would seem to completely solve your dilemma,
no?

I have a poweramp( BAT VK-200), and a pair of speakers(Hales Revelation
Three) and i want to play CDs so i need a aplyer. I want one of substantial
quality both in build and performace capability( upsampling for instance).

Despite what you mave have read or been told, "upsampling" does
nothing to improve the sound from CD's. It does NOT make the
waveform any smoother, it does not "increase resolution." Depending
upon how upsampling is implemented, it CAN change the sound of
what what should be coming out of an otherwise competently
implemented player, but that's an indication that the implementation
is broken.

The vast majority of CD players these days implement what's called
"oversampling" anyway: it's a means by which a proper anti-imaging
reconstruction filter can be implemented

wrote in message
oups.com...

Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:
The reason for the INPUT is when using the CD Player directly into a
Power
amp and wanting to use a DVD player with Digital Optical OUTPUT without
a
preamp or other line stage. The CD player i'm looking at will with the
Toslink installed accept the DVD players audio signal enableing me to
enjoy
it thru the main system.

Well, assuming I have parsed your rather bizarre grammar to mean:

"I want to play connect other digital sources, such as a DVD
player,
directly to my power amp, by using the internal electronics of the
CD
player to convert the digital data stream to analog,"

you're asking for something that's nigh on impossible without a very
substantial amount of re-engineering.

You can look at the basic operation of the CD player as having two
parts: 1) the mechanical player mechanism, including the read and
decode electronics and 2) the digitial-to-analg converter (DAC).

In an integrated player like the Wadia (if they did it right), the
master
of the whole process is the DAC. It rquires samples to show up at
specific intervals, and it ensures that this happens by controlling the
rate at whoh the player mechanism reads data off the CD. There is,
in short, a very tight intergratiuon between the operation of these two
major functions, with the DAC being the master.

What YOU want to do is something entirely different. When you talk
about an external source, like a DVD player, there is no way any
external DAC can control the rate the data is read from the source,
so it must use different methods to keep in sample synchronization
with what is, in essence, an asynchronous data stream.

In other words, unlike the Wadia, where the DAC is the master and
the transport is the slave, you want the transport to be the master and
the DAC to be the slave/.

The internal DAC of the Wadia or any other CD player doesn't work
that way, and can't be made to work that way.

Now, there ARE external DACs that do precisely what you want, and
can even handle multiple sources including the digital output of the
Wadia, so that you can defer the D/A conversion until just before the
input to the power amp, if that's your desire.

If that's NOT your desire, you're going to have to state it more
clearly
than you have thus far.


The unit in question is designed with OPTIONAL digital INPUTS. These are
availale to input a digital souce like a DVD player.Weather the unit is then
acting as the DAC for the DVD or simply passing the decoded audio signal
along to the amp allowing the use of its volume settings i think the latter
is the case.Since the DVD playing would be being decoded by the DAC in the
DVD player correct? This Wadia player has optional digital inputs for some
reason. If i understand its capabilities as i have stated, it would, once
the inputs are installed act as a preamp essentially simply taking the
audio output from a DVD and passing it to the amp, i already said that
didn't i?Then i can listen to CDs and have the audio from DVDs run thru
the Amp and main speakers without having to buy a seperate preamp. There are
several other CD players which will accomplish this; Cary, Mark Levinson,
Krell and Wadia seem to be the once posessing the features i desire so far
this Wadia had the best price but its OPTIONAL Digital Input features were
not installed so i wondered how that night ultimately increase the total
cost. Then perhaps i'd look for a unit i didn't need to service before
using.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:
How about volume control.If the cd player has no volume just because
it
will deliver some signal thru the output of the amp doesn't do alot of
good
if its set to one level and that level is either max or min. I of
course
could buy a preamp and get a CD player without volume control and that
would obviate the need for the cd player to have a digital input thru
which
i might run my dvd player as the preamp would allow that.

Yup, so a preamp would seem to completely solve your dilemma,
no?

I have a poweramp( BAT VK-200), and a pair of speakers(Hales Revelation
Three) and i want to play CDs so i need a aplyer. I want one of
substantial
quality both in build and performace capability( upsampling for
instance).

Despite what you mave have read or been told, "upsampling" does
nothing to improve the sound from CD's. It does NOT make the
waveform any smoother, it does not "increase resolution." Depending
upon how upsampling is implemented, it CAN change the sound of
what what should be coming out of an otherwise competently
implemented player, but that's an indication that the implementation
is broken.

The vast majority of CD players these days implement what's called
"oversampling" anyway: it's a means by which a proper anti-imaging
reconstruction filter can be implemented


Interesting. That would seem to mean all those HiFi mag reviewers are flat
out lying when they claim certain CD players upsampling features enhanced
the sound features of Cds. Wadia also claims their DigiMaster upsampling
technology allows our playback to exceed the capabilities of HDCD .You are
saying that's all mumbo-jumbo?

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news

Here's an interesting example of a passive preamp:

http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K8022

http://www.apogeekits.com/preamp.htm

others:

http://hjem.get2net.dk/aaholm_audio/...Pre/PasPre.htm

added:

http://sound.westhost.com/project01.htm


Would there be any reason i couldn't find such a device
with balanced in and outputs if i have an amp with only
balanced inputs and find a CD player that utilizes
balanced outputs

You can find such things in the world of professional audio.

http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/CD01UPro/


so the whole system can use the same
kind of in/outs?



http://www.8thstreet.com/Product.asp..._A ccessories

http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/CControl/

http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/BigKnob/

http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/CentralStat/

http://www.macmidimusic.com/prod.itml/icOid/10381

etc.

Big list at:

http://www.swee****er.com/store/category/c417/

http://www.atlasproaudio.com/cranesong.html




If the benefit is either imaginary or
inconsequential that's another thing then.

Whether balanced I/o has an audible benefit depends on how badly an
unbalanced implementation works in the same context. Many times, unbalanced
suffices.

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message

wrote in message
oups.com...

Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:
The reason for the INPUT is when using the CD Player
directly into a Power amp and wanting to use a DVD
player with Digital Optical OUTPUT without a preamp or
other line stage. The CD player i'm looking at will
with the Toslink installed accept the DVD players
audio signal enableing me to enjoy it thru the main
system.

The unit in question is designed with OPTIONAL digital
INPUTS. These are availale to input a digital souce like
a DVD player.Weather the unit is then acting as the DAC
for the DVD or simply passing the decoded audio signal
along to the amp allowing the use of its volume settings
i think the latter is the case.

If the optional digital inputs are implemented, then changing them from coax
to optical is pretty simple. If they aren't implemented, then the details of
the implementation are only knowable if one has detailed knowlege of the
internals of the device.

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message


Interesting. That would seem to mean all those HiFi mag
reviewers are flat out lying when they claim certain CD
players upsampling features enhanced the sound features
of Cds.

Whether they are lying, which implies knowing the truth, is unknown.

Whether they are making a false claim is more readily knowable.

Wadia also claims their DigiMaster upsampling
technology allows our playback to exceed the capabilities
of HDCD .You are saying that's all mumbo-jumbo?

Yes, its ignorant mumbo-jumbo. You can increase the bandwidth that a digital
signal ties up with upsampling, but you can't increase the amount of
information that it contains.

Note that as a rule HiFi Mag reviewers eschew proper listening tests.
Therefore they are at best speaking from ignorance.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message

wrote in message
oups.com...

Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:
The reason for the INPUT is when using the CD Player
directly into a Power amp and wanting to use a DVD
player with Digital Optical OUTPUT without a preamp or
other line stage. The CD player i'm looking at will
with the Toslink installed accept the DVD players
audio signal enableing me to enjoy it thru the main
system.

The unit in question is designed with OPTIONAL digital
INPUTS. These are availale to input a digital souce like
a DVD player.Weather the unit is then acting as the DAC
for the DVD or simply passing the decoded audio signal
along to the amp allowing the use of its volume settings
i think the latter is the case.

If the optional digital inputs are implemented, then changing them from
coax
to optical is pretty simple. If they aren't implemented, then the details
of
the implementation are only knowable if one has detailed knowlege of the
internals of the device.


Thanks that's what i thought. I am of a mind they are probably implemeted
but am waiting for a reply from the Company.

Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:

Interesting. That would seem to mean all those HiFi mag reviewers
are flat
out lying when they claim certain CD players upsampling features enhanced
the sound features of Cds.

Lying? No. At least not in most cases; they genuinely believe that
they can hear the difference. But when faced with the task of detecting
the diference just by listening they can't.

I invite you to draw your own conclusions from here.

//Walt

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message


Interesting. That would seem to mean all those HiFi mag
reviewers are flat out lying when they claim certain CD
players upsampling features enhanced the sound features
of Cds.

Whether they are lying, which implies knowing the truth, is unknown.

Whether they are making a false claim is more readily knowable.

Wadia also claims their DigiMaster upsampling
technology allows our playback to exceed the capabilities
of HDCD .You are saying that's all mumbo-jumbo?

Yes, its ignorant mumbo-jumbo. You can increase the bandwidth that a
digital
signal ties up with upsampling, but you can't increase the amount of
information that it contains.

Note that as a rule HiFi Mag reviewers eschew proper listening tests.
Therefore they are at best speaking from ignorance.



its funny that as ignorant as i am the thought that you can't get two yolks
out of one egg(double yolked eggs notwithstanding) seemed rediculously
obvious but i was momentarily wowed by this magic upsampling biz i was
imagining all my old Cds would sound like DVD A or whatever on this machine.

Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:
wrote in message
Despite what you mave have read or been told, "upsampling" does
nothing to improve the sound from CD's. It does NOT make the
waveform any smoother, it does not "increase resolution." Depending
upon how upsampling is implemented, it CAN change the sound of
what what should be coming out of an otherwise competently
implemented player, but that's an indication that the implementation
is broken.

The vast majority of CD players these days implement what's called
"oversampling" anyway: it's a means by which a proper anti-imaging
reconstruction filter can be implemented

Interesting. That would seem to mean all those HiFi mag reviewers are flat
out lying when they claim certain CD players upsampling features enhanced
the sound features of Cds.

I am sure that many of these reveiwers believe what they are
saying or being told, thus I would be hesitant to say that they
are most defintiely "flat out lying." A large number of these reviewers
lack the technical background to understand the principles involved,
and thus often do little but parrot what they read or are told. As a
result,
there is an enormous amount of myth, technobabble and such in the
high-end press. Just because, however, they sincerely believe some-
thing doesn't make it so.

Wadia also claims their DigiMaster upsampling technology
allows our playback to exceed the capabilities of HDCD .You are
saying that's all mumbo-jumbo?

I'm am saying, in this particular case, that the statement is
sufficiently
content-free that it has no meaning that can be interpreted as either
right or wrong. What do they mean "exceeds capability of HDCD?"

Upsampling is claimed by some to "smooth" the waveform by providing
more samples in between the samples. Unfortunately, the claim, in
and of itself, is technically bogus: Any properly implemented D/A
converter does not put out waveforms that require any smoothing.
The "lack of smoothness" is due to something called "images."
These are out-of-band replicas of the original base-band spectrum
and are eliminated through the proper implementation of something
that is called the "anti-imaging" or "reconstruction" filter on the
DAC.
If the filter eliminates out-of-band images, the waveform is as smooth

as it will can ever be, and no amount of upsampling can improve it, at
all.

Now, to IMPLEMENT these anti-imaging/reconstruction filters, the
technique universally adopted over at least the last decade and more
is to use what are called oversampling filters. The reason for this is
somewhat technical, but helps to illustrate the lack of technical
foundation for "upsampling" claims.

An "image," in the sampled-audio context, is essentially a "reflection"
of the original base-band spectrum (0-22 kHz in the case of CD audio)
at multiple points oiutside of the baseband. For example, the original
baseband spectrum from 0-22.05 kHz is found reveresed from 22.05
to 44.1 kHz, from 44.1 kHz to 66.15 kHz, reversed again from 66.16 kHz
to 88.2 kHz and so on. In fact, it is perfectly valid to state that a
sampled stream contains the original signal and ALL images out
to infinite frequency.

It is, in fact, all those images that give rise to the (theoretical)
appearance of a digital-toanalog convertered waveform having
"steps". The finite change in amplitude in an infnitesmally short
time significies an infinite spectrum. We don't want that, and that's
why we have anti-imaging/reconstruction filters.

The basic requirements of such a filter are simple to state and can be
tough to implement: The filter must pass the base-band portion of
the spectrum unchanged, but must also eliminated everytuing else
completely.

One way, a very effective way of handling this is to implement the
filter
using ioversampling: the original 44.1 kHz stream is oversampled at,
say, 64 times the original sample rate, simply by 63 0 samples between
each valid sample. What this does is no instead of the images occuring
every 22.05 kHz, the occur every 22.05kHz*64 or 1.411 MEGAHz. The
filter
is constructed do do the vast majority of the 22.05 kHz filtering
through
the use of complex digital filter algorithms, and what's left over is
to
get rid of that first image at 705 kHz and above. That's a LOT easier
to
do in analog: it's a VERY simple filter.

And because the filter is implemented, still, at 22.05 kHz, the
waveform
coming out is nice and smooth, with no steps, just as ANY waveform
whose bandwidth is limited to 22.05 kHz will be. There's NO magic,
and the claim that "upsampling" does it better, taken by itself, is
technically bogus, the sincerity of the claimant notwithstanding.

The point being is that EVERY CD player you find, and everyone you
COULD find for well over the last 10 years, from the most expensive
to the very cheapest, ALL utilize oversampling. The Wadia does it its
way, and there are reasonable technical reasons why the way it does
it is less than optimum.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
Here's an interesting example of a passive preamp:

http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K8022

http://www.apogeekits.com/preamp.htm

others:

http://hjem.get2net.dk/aaholm_audio/...Pre/PasPre.htm

added:

http://sound.westhost.com/project01.htm


Would there be any reason i couldn't find such a device
with balanced in and outputs if i have an amp with only
balanced inputs and find a CD player that utilizes
balanced outputs

You can find such things in the world of professional audio.

http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/CD01UPro/


so the whole system can use the same
kind of in/outs?




http://www.8thstreet.com/Product.asp...Recording_A c
cessories

http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/CControl/

http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/BigKnob/

http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/CentralStat/

http://www.macmidimusic.com/prod.itml/icOid/10381

etc.

Big list at:

http://www.swee****er.com/store/category/c417/

http://www.atlasproaudio.com/cranesong.html




If the benefit is either imaginary or
inconsequential that's another thing then.

Whether balanced I/o has an audible benefit depends on how badly an
unbalanced implementation works in the same context. Many times,
unbalanced
suffices.


With say the SM Audio M-Patch passive volume control i could keep using my
DVD player to play CDs . $99.00 and at least i can finally hear the
amp\speakers... that's an idea. If only i had a way of finding out the
method this panasonic RS-32 DVD player's DAC handles the job compared to one
of these high priced gizmos so i could know if i'm missing out on a high
degree of the total signal from my CDs... could it get alot better with a
more"sophiticated" DAC. I guess i'll have to hear Robert Fripp's screaching
electric guitar thru the 200 watt amp as compared to the 70 watt Yamaha
receiver to see if that little crunchiness is gone to detrmine if it was
caused by the jitter in the DVD player or the power limitations of the
receiver. I'll be back, thanks.

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
...
Anyone know what kind of a job it would be to install the optional
digital
optical imput on a Wadia 301 Cd Player? I see one at a currently great
price
but need that input to use it w/o a preamp but to run my DVD player thru
it. If it can be done for under a hundred dollars at any competent
service
bench that's good news .If its a much more costly job this bargain begins
to lose its value.



Well just heard from Wadia. They want $595.00 plus two way freight to
install the digital input . I suppose that would be all available
connection types.I can't imagine Vince at Audioproz charging THAT much..

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in
message

Interesting. That would seem to mean all those HiFi mag
reviewers are flat out lying when they claim certain CD
players upsampling features enhanced the sound features
of Cds.

Whether they are lying, which implies knowing the truth,
is unknown.

Whether they are making a false claim is more readily
knowable.

Wadia also claims their DigiMaster upsampling
technology allows our playback to exceed the
capabilities of HDCD .You are saying that's all
mumbo-jumbo?

Yes, its ignorant mumbo-jumbo. You can increase the
bandwidth that a digital signal ties up with upsampling,
but you can't increase the amount of information that it
contains.

Note that as a rule HiFi Mag reviewers eschew proper
listening tests. Therefore they are at best speaking
from ignorance.


its funny that as ignorant as i am the thought that you
can't get two yolks out of one egg(double yolked eggs
notwithstanding) seemed rediculously obvious

Hold that thought! ;-)

but i was
momentarily wowed by this magic upsampling biz i was
imagining all my old Cds would sound like DVD A or
whatever on this machine.

The irony is that the DVD-A format sounds no better than the CD format
because of the limitations of the recordings and the listener's ears.

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message


With say the SM Audio M-Patch passive volume control i
could keep using my DVD player to play CDs . $99.00 and
at least i can finally hear the amp\speakers... that's an
idea.

Given some of the alternatives, its like a throw-away idea. If it works you
are golden, and if it does not work, what the hey? ;-)


If only i had a way of finding out the method this
panasonic RS-32 DVD player's


I can't find anything on the web about that model.

DAC handles the job compared
to one of these high priced gizmos so i could know if i'm
missing out on a high degree of the total signal from my
CDs... could it get alot better with a
more"sophiticated" DAC.

Probably not.

I guess i'll have to hear Robert
Fripp's screaching electric guitar thru the 200 watt amp
as compared to the 70 watt Yamaha receiver to see if
that little crunchiness is gone to detrmine if it was
caused by the jitter in the DVD player or the power
limitations of the receiver.

It just might be that way in the recording.

Or the problem might be elsewhere than just the receiver.

I apologize to the group for top-posting but what I have to say does not
relate to any particular text by Harry. Harry, at the risk of offending you
I will note that you seem to have a fundamantal gap in your understanding of
how a digital source functions. Do some reading, there is a virtually
unlimited amount on the internet, and come back with some questions that
make sense. The fine folks in this forum are more than willing to help, but
cannot do so if you do not understand what you are asking.

For example "volume control" on a digital source. A digital bitstream has
no concept of "volume". It's 1's and 0's which comprise an encoded version
of analog sound. the DAC contains an OP-AMP which amplifies the converted
analog signal to provide you with LINE-LEVEL OUTPUTS. Amplifiers have
volume controls, NOT digital sources such as a dvd or cd player. On some
higher-end models there MAY be an adjustment so that you can match your line
output level to your other source components... so that you may switch from
tuner to cd to dvd and they'd all be at roughly the same volume level.
Portable units contain an amplifier in the same case as the cd transport and
dac, hence the volume control and separate headphone jack (as opposed to
line out jack).

I wish you the best of luck but, having read through this thread, am
doubtful you will find satisfaction. If you have a digital source which
requires conversion to analog (i.e. lacks an internal DAC which would be
EXTREMELY UNLIKELY) buy an external DAC. If your Wadia unit has digitial
coax inputs, buy an optical to coax converter, it's way cheaper than a DAC.
Most external DACs were developed for and are marketed to audiophile-types
who want to improve upon the performance of the DAC in their particular
source. They are not cheap.

Dave

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
...

"Walt" wrote in message
...
Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:


why do you say the Wadia is defective as designed? I have no
experience
with them but the reviews all seem to when combined with the fact i
can
run
it straight into the amp make it seem right for me.

You can run any CD player directly into an amp, including the $20
portables at Target. Why is that a feature?

//Walt

How about volume control.If the cd player has no volume just because it
will deliver some signal thru the output of the amp doesn't do alot of
good
if its set to one level and that level is either max or min. I of course
could buy a preamp and get a CD player without volume control and that
would obviate the need for the cd player to have a digital input thru
which
i might run my dvd player as the preamp would allow that. So to sum it
up;
I have a poweramp( BAT VK-200), and a pair of speakers(Hales Revelation
Three) and i want to play CDs so i need a aplyer. I want one of
substantial
quality both in build and performace capability( upsampling for instance).
Several exists which would alow me to run them direct into the Amp and
also
run the DVD(audio signal) player i have.I see one on a popular auction
site
but i have no confidence in the sellers integrity based on his lack of
feedback and his cryptical and incomplete reply to several emails.The
answer to the original question will serve in my continued search for the
right component to complete this system.

I guess its safe to say you failed to see the honour i do your forum by
coming here first to learn what you would have me scouring the net to
read.As for your statement;" Amplifiers have volume controls", some may,
mine doesn't . In the absense of a preamp yet owning a DVD/ CD player and
with an incomplete understading of the ability of its DAC, i have been
looking at CD players with the beliefe a more sophisticated DAC may afford
me a more satisfying listening experience should there actually be any
audible difference in the final listening.In that search i've found CD
players which are constructed to allow i guess gain control of the DAC
signal, feel free to trounce me if i misstate it but whatever , my goal is
to listen to Cds with the highest or fullest replay possible for under say
$3,000.00. Arny seems to have made a prudent suggestion in the passive
preamps, they're economical and while i go study that information you
mention i can have my neat VK-200 seranading me as i learn.

"Dave" wrote in message
news:hfIKf.12158$jh5.8358@edtnps84...
I apologize to the group for top-posting but what I have to say does not
relate to any particular text by Harry. Harry, at the risk of offending
you
I will note that you seem to have a fundamantal gap in your understanding
of
how a digital source functions. Do some reading, there is a virtually
unlimited amount on the internet, and come back with some questions that
make sense. The fine folks in this forum are more than willing to help,
but
cannot do so if you do not understand what you are asking.

For example "volume control" on a digital source. A digital bitstream has
no concept of "volume". It's 1's and 0's which comprise an encoded
version
of analog sound. the DAC contains an OP-AMP which amplifies the converted
analog signal to provide you with LINE-LEVEL OUTPUTS. Amplifiers have
volume controls, NOT digital sources such as a dvd or cd player. On some
higher-end models there MAY be an adjustment so that you can match your
line
output level to your other source components... so that you may switch
from
tuner to cd to dvd and they'd all be at roughly the same volume level.
Portable units contain an amplifier in the same case as the cd transport
and
dac, hence the volume control and separate headphone jack (as opposed to
line out jack).

I wish you the best of luck but, having read through this thread, am
doubtful you will find satisfaction. If you have a digital source which
requires conversion to analog (i.e. lacks an internal DAC which would be
EXTREMELY UNLIKELY) buy an external DAC. If your Wadia unit has digitial
coax inputs, buy an optical to coax converter, it's way cheaper than a
DAC.
Most external DACs were developed for and are marketed to audiophile-types
who want to improve upon the performance of the DAC in their particular
source. They are not cheap.

Dave

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
...

"Walt" wrote in message
...
Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:


why do you say the Wadia is defective as designed? I have no
experience
with them but the reviews all seem to when combined with the fact i
can
run
it straight into the amp make it seem right for me.

You can run any CD player directly into an amp, including the $20
portables at Target. Why is that a feature?

//Walt

How about volume control.If the cd player has no volume just because
it
will deliver some signal thru the output of the amp doesn't do alot of
good
if its set to one level and that level is either max or min. I of
course
could buy a preamp and get a CD player without volume control and that
would obviate the need for the cd player to have a digital input thru
which
i might run my dvd player as the preamp would allow that. So to sum it
up;
I have a poweramp( BAT VK-200), and a pair of speakers(Hales Revelation
Three) and i want to play CDs so i need a aplyer. I want one of
substantial
quality both in build and performace capability( upsampling for
instance).
Several exists which would alow me to run them direct into the Amp and
also
run the DVD(audio signal) player i have.I see one on a popular auction
site
but i have no confidence in the sellers integrity based on his lack of
feedback and his cryptical and incomplete reply to several emails.The
answer to the original question will serve in my continued search for
the
right component to complete this system.

François Yves Le Gal wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:18:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

The irony is that the DVD-A format sounds no better than the CD format
because of the limitations of the recordings and the listener's ears.


As repeatedly demonstrated, including properly done double blind listening
tests, 16/44 CD is close to being but isn't a transparent format.

You need a couple more bits and two dozen KHz of sampling rate in order to
reach theoretical transparency on most program sources. Say 18/64.

Unfortunately, the trend is in the opposite direction, fewer bits not more.

//Walt

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in
message
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:18:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

The irony is that the DVD-A format sounds no better than
the CD format because of the limitations of the
recordings and the listener's ears.

As repeatedly demonstrated, including properly done
double blind listening tests, 16/44 CD is close to being
but isn't a transparent format.

Where?

You need a couple more bits and two dozen KHz of sampling
rate in order to reach theoretical transparency on most
program sources. Say 18/64.

Nope.

"Walt" wrote in message
news
François Yves Le Gal wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:18:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
The irony is that the DVD-A format sounds no better
than the CD format because of the limitations of the
recordings and the listener's ears.


As repeatedly demonstrated, including properly done
double blind listening tests, 16/44 CD is close to being
but isn't a transparent format. You need a couple more bits and two dozen
KHz of
sampling rate in order to reach theoretical transparency
on most program sources. Say 18/64.

Unfortunately, the trend is in the opposite direction,
fewer bits not more.

It is pretty well known that linear PCM with flat quantization error
represents a poor use of available bits.

Perceptual coding has improved to the point where a very good measure of
sonic transparency is possible that way if you are willing to use enough
bits.

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in
message
On 21 Feb 2006 08:37:52 -0800,
wrote:

The point being is that EVERY CD player you find, and
everyone you COULD find for well over the last 10 years,
from the most expensive to the very cheapest, ALL
utilize oversampling.

Ahem, a number of so-called "audiophile" CD players and
DAC's eschew any form of oversampling.

Vide for instance
http://www.audionote.co.uk/dacs/dac_intro.html

The AudioNote is such a odd example that its almost a red herring.

OK, someone went out of their way to get stupid. Doesn't make it an industry
trend.

"Dave" wrote in message
news:hfIKf.12158$jh5.8358@edtnps84


For example "volume control" on a digital source. A
digital bitstream has no concept of "volume". It's 1's
and 0's which comprise an encoded version of analog
sound.

This is absolute nonesense. A digital data stream has a very strong inherent
concept of volume, and as Franciois points out it is reasonably simple to
change its volume.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Walt" wrote
François Yves Le Gal wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:18:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

The irony is that the DVD-A format sounds no better
than the CD format because of the limitations of the
recordings and the listener's ears.


As repeatedly demonstrated, including properly done
double blind listening tests, 16/44 CD is close to being
but isn't a transparent format. You need a couple more bits and two dozen
KHz of
sampling rate in order to reach theoretical transparency
on most program sources. Say 18/64.

Unfortunately, the trend is in the opposite direction,
fewer bits not more.

It is pretty well known that linear PCM with flat quantization error
represents a poor use of available bits.

Perceptual coding has improved to the point where a very good measure of
sonic transparency is possible that way if you are willing to use enough
bits.

But is anybody using enough bits? The codecs seem mostly to be used for
bit rate reduction.

//Walt

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote ...
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote:
You are saying that's all mumbo-jumbo?

Most of it is, yes.

Monsieur Le Gal could also have directed you to one
of the newsgroups set up to discuss mumbo-jumbo.
news:rec.audio.opinion springs to mind. :-)

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"François Yves Le Gal" wrote ...
"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote:
You are saying that's all mumbo-jumbo?

Most of it is, yes.

Monsieur Le Gal could also have directed you to one
of the newsgroups set up to discuss mumbo-jumbo.
news:rec.audio.opinion springs to mind. :-)



I've been there,they were hopeless.....

"Walt" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

Perceptual coding has improved to the point where a very
good measure of sonic transparency is possible that way
if you are willing to use enough bits.

But is anybody using enough bits?

Yes.

The codecs seem mostly
to be used for bit rate reduction.

Right, but quite a bit of reduction can be sonically innocious.

"François Yves Le Gal" wrote in
message

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:55:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

OK, someone went out of their way to get stupid. Doesn't
make it an industry trend.

It's an audiophile trend, with some people paying very
steep premiums for basic DAC's such as the Philips TDA
1541 "triple crown" of early '80's vintage.

http://www.google.com/search?q=non+oversampling+DAC


OK.

I guess I should never ask "What will these bozos think of next?"

Arny Krueger wrote:



It may not be that easy because the digital circuits in a CD player are part
of a massive feedback loop that includes the transport's spindle motor.


????? WHat are you talking about Arny ?????

There is a big difference between the recovery of the signal, and the
end product demodulation in the D/A convertor. There is no motor
FEEDBACK after the D/A. Before is a different story in the digital data
stream recovery circuits.

If the op had any technical chops, he could take the cover off the unit
and look for a circuit board with a jack missing or parts missing
indicating his unit has a few parts left off rather than a complete
different design than the model he thought had that feature on it.

Bob

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"Bob Urz" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:



It may not be that easy because the digital circuits in
a CD player are part of a massive feedback loop that
includes the transport's spindle motor.
????? WHat are you talking about Arny ?????

There is a big difference between the recovery of the
signal, and the end product demodulation in the D/A convertor. There is
no motor FEEDBACK after the D/A. Before is a different story in
the digital data stream recovery circuits.

An external digital input would come *before* the DAC, right?