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chestek chestek is offline
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck3.75 IPS

jailhouserock wrote:


if there were no holes, we'd still have 44/16 like back in 1983

why did they make 96/24 and 192/24 ?


Same reason they made 3.75 ips cassettes. To extend the frequency
response and reduce the noise floor.

Then the marketing people grabbed onto it to try and make everyone feel
that their stuff was obsolete and inferior, and by spending some more
money, they could once again be state-of-the-art. That's what marketing
people do.
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

jailhouserock wrote:
On Mar 28, 8:40 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

The RIAA sez that LP sales dropped by about half in the second half of 2006,
so something is going on.


That's less than CD sales dropped, though, isn't it?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."



CD sales dropped by 60 % in recent years.



Because it's being replaced in the marketplace by anotehr DIGITAL format -- downloadable
files.

Not because people are going back to analog, and CERTANLY not because they're
buying more LPs.
..



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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

William Sommerwerck wrote:
good analog will equal/surpass the 192/24 digital
resolution.


Okay. Name the machine. Not just "analog", a specific
machine.


This will be fun -- such a machine doesn't and can't exist,
at least in the real world. Maybe on some spec sheet,
but in the listening room and on the test bench, it can't exist.


But Arny, you're the one who's always throwing specs in people's faces. No
matter how good the specs are, one eventually has to listen and judge.


I seem to recall Arny at least once or twice advocating ABX comparisons, which
certainly involve listening and judging. Or am I misremembering?

Fact is that the best high speed analog tape doesn't have
as much resolution of the lowly audio CD, and again that's
something that can and has also been proven in the listening
room and on the test bench.


I'm not sure what you mean by "resolution", or even if the term has any
meaning with respect to subjective quality.


It has a defined meaning digital audio.

As I've said many times, I prefer digital to analog. But that isn't because
it has better paper specs (though it does) -- or that because analog tape
has some pretty obvious flaws (though it does) -- it's because I've made
recordings, and judge digital to be generally superior to (more accurate
than) analog.


And that *is* borne out by the specs.


___
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

Arny Krueger wrote:
"jailhouserock" wrote in
message


In bandwidth it is, but not in content- when you take an
analog music signal, break it into 1/0's, then make a
computer program out of it, then reassemble it with a D/A
converter, you are not getting the same thing back again.


Well, that's MP3, but its not .wav.



and even then, a high-bitrate MP3 made with a decently perfected encoder
(e.g. LAME) is going to be tough for the vast majority of people, including
'audiophiles', to differentiate from .wav in a blind test.
All this digital stuff, it's pretty robust by now....



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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

William Sommerwerck wrote:
No matter how good the specs are, one
eventually has to listen and judge.


You're preaching to the choir. BTW what's www.pcabx.com
about if not listening and judging?


Because it's not the way one normally listens. abx is _a_ way of judging,
not _the only_.


But importantly, it's a way that's free of the biases that inhere to the way 'one normally
listens'. Now, before you retort with a list of biases it supposedly *introduces*, please
confine the list to those that are *inherent* in ABX. This excludes 'the samples are too
brief', 'the gear/music is unfamiliar', 'it's fatiguing' and, I suspect, the rest of
the list.


___
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metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason


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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

jailhouserock wrote:
On Mar 28, 10:45 am, "Mike Rivers" wrote:

Is that a promise? Or can we ask you politely to take your case over
to rec.audio.opinion and rest it there for a while?


you'd need a moderated group, to do that- perhaps you should start
one ?


then you can be self-proclaimed dictator, and demand CD only members


The one moderated NG I know of -- rec.audio.high-end -- regularly includes
contributions from 'LP lovers' as well as 'CD only' members. Usually
they're arguing with each other, within the rules of the newsgroup.



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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

jailhouserock wrote:
On Mar 28, 11:08 am, "Mike Rivers" wrote:
On Mar 28, 10:53 am, "jailhouserock"
wrote:

Darn! You know, you're right. I recorded the Arlington Philharmonic on
Sunday using 44.1 kHz, 16-bits. I listened to the CD in my car on the
way home, and it sounded just like Blood, Sweat and Tears. Then I
realized that I had selected the wrong CD in the changer.


agreed- CD is a great car format


Actually, CD's terrible in the sense that if exploited to full,
music with quiet sections will sound worse in a car than almost any other
medium.

However, the geniuses behind the sliders have found ways to 'fix' that,
by digitally compressing the dynamic range to a fare-thee-well. So
now those CDs sound great in a car! But not so great at home.
Unless you're having a party.


See, I DID say it.



SACD would sound better- unless now, rez doesn't mean much to you ?


Only if I can hear it. I doubt my hearing and listening environments were ever good enough
to need 'resolution' beyond the ~94ish dB available to dithered Redbook. I doubt yours ever
were either. I'm happy that bitdepths 16 are being used in production though, to prevent
nasty rounding artifacts from becoming audible.

Ditto frequency response above 20 kHz.

If it's not 44.1 kHz 16-bit, it's not a CD.


well hells bells, digital has progressed a bit beyond that now, hasn't
it


In some senses, in others, it's just the marketing that has progressed.

16/44.1 is just beyond the the margin of acceptable, where getting something 'wrong' could
produce an audible hit; thus to exploit it flawlessly required excellent engineering (in both
the hardware and software realms). "Higher rez" formats leave a bigger margin for error,
making it in some ways *easier* to achieve the excellent sound CD can offer.




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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

jailhouserock wrote:
On Mar 28, 11:30 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Well, that's MP3, but its not .wav.


yes, I know that- I've transferred in both on MusicMatch Jukebox



Ever made your own MP3s, and compared them to your sources, using ABX software?
You might be surprised at the result.


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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

jailhouserock wrote:
On Mar 28, 12:10 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
wrote in message



jailhouserock wrote:
On Mar 28, 8:59 am, "Mike Rivers"
wrote:


And once you're using 24 bits, that's all the
resolution and dynamic range that you can possibly use.
If you were comparing 22 kHz 8-bit recording with
cassette, I'd say it would be a good idea to move up in
digital sample rate and resolution. But 192/24 is
overkill.
then why did the digital gurus, with engineering
degrees, make it ?
Because the marketing gurus with MBAs told them it would
sell.


Agreed.

However there has to be some element of "Since we can do it, why not?" in
the picture.

Also, when the 24/96 chip designs were being contemplated, probably in the
mid-1990s, digital was not as well-understood as it is now.

For example, the wide availability of good 24/96 chips at reasonable prices
greatly facilitated production people finding out for themselves whether
higher sample rates were practically advantageous or not.



you can never have too much resolution in a recording


Is your hearing infinitely resolving? If not, your statement
is beyond silly.

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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

jailhouserock wrote:


you want a quick "good-no good" answer ?


ask your wife to listen


their ears don't lie, and are quick



OK, never mind. I think I know what to do with your posts from here on.
(Hint: it's not 'reply to them')


___
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metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason
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