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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 26, 9:30 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"DeserTBoB" wrote in message

25-20 KHz at what level and with how many dBs tolerance?
If you can't provide those two key addiational
parameters, you're talking marketing crap, not
technology.


OK Arnie K- please evaluate this BIC T-4M deck- here is a complete
spec and review writeup- please tell me how the dB's tolerance and
levels shown in these tests, affect this unit. It seems to have
quite wide FR to me.

http://i9.tinypic.com/352re5f.jpg

http://i11.tinypic.com/4dgxj7p.jpg

http://i9.tinypic.com/2qcngyd.jpg

I do value educated, experienced opinions, backed by fact. There are
graphs for various levels and FR. Have at it. Tell me how this
vintage BIC 3.75 IPS cassette deck, is "junk".

fire away ! Here are the other additional parameters you asked for.

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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 11:18 am, "duty-honor-country"
wrote:
On Mar 26, 9:30 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

"DeserTBoB" wrote in message


25-20 KHz at what level and with how many dBs tolerance?
If you can't provide those two key addiational
parameters, you're talking marketing crap, not
technology.


OK Arnie K- please evaluate this BIC T-4M deck- here is a complete
spec and review writeup- please tell me how the dB's tolerance and
levels shown in these tests, affect this unit. It seems to have
quite wide FR to me.

http://i9.tinypic.com/352re5f.jpg

http://i11.tinypic.com/4dgxj7p.jpg

http://i9.tinypic.com/2qcngyd.jpg

I do value educated, experienced opinions, backed by fact. There are
graphs for various levels and FR. Have at it. Tell me how this
vintage BIC 3.75 IPS cassette deck, is "junk".

fire away ! Here are the other additional parameters you asked for.




to maximize and read prior links, click on link, hold cursor on page,
when box appears at lower right, click on box, it will expand page and
make it readable







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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 12:18 pm, "duty-honor-country"

OK Arnie K- please evaluate this BIC T-4M deck- here is a complete
spec and review writeup


If you want someone here to evaluate a recorder, don't bother with the
spec and review crap, send him the recorder. Arny's an honest guy.
He'll send it back to you if you pay for the shipping.


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Edi Zubovic Edi Zubovic is offline
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On 27 Mar 2007 09:18:43 -0700, "duty-honor-country"
wrote:

On Mar 26, 9:30 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"DeserTBoB" wrote in message

25-20 KHz at what level and with how many dBs tolerance?
If you can't provide those two key addiational
parameters, you're talking marketing crap, not
technology.


OK Arnie K- please evaluate this BIC T-4M deck- here is a complete
spec and review writeup- please tell me how the dB's tolerance and
levels shown in these tests, affect this unit. It seems to have
quite wide FR to me.

http://i9.tinypic.com/352re5f.jpg

http://i11.tinypic.com/4dgxj7p.jpg

http://i9.tinypic.com/2qcngyd.jpg

I do value educated, experienced opinions, backed by fact. There are
graphs for various levels and FR. Have at it. Tell me how this
vintage BIC 3.75 IPS cassette deck, is "junk".

fire away ! Here are the other additional parameters you asked for.


Lookie! -- and I thought, Eumig FL-1000uP was rare enough...

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 11:20 am, "duty-honor-country"
wrote:
On Mar 27, 11:18 am, "duty-honor-country"





wrote:
On Mar 26, 9:30 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:


"DeserTBoB" wrote in message


25-20 KHz at what level and with how many dBs tolerance?
If you can't provide those two key addiational
parameters, you're talking marketing crap, not
technology.


OK Arnie K- please evaluate this BIC T-4M deck- here is a complete
spec and review writeup- please tell me how the dB's tolerance and
levels shown in these tests, affect this unit. It seems to have
quite wide FR to me.


http://i9.tinypic.com/352re5f.jpg


http://i11.tinypic.com/4dgxj7p.jpg


http://i9.tinypic.com/2qcngyd.jpg


I do value educated, experienced opinions, backed by fact. There are
graphs for various levels and FR. Have at it. Tell me how this
vintage BIC 3.75 IPS cassette deck, is "junk".


fire away ! Here are the other additional parameters you asked for.


to maximize and read prior links, click on link, hold cursor on page,
when box appears at lower right, click on box, it will expand page and
make it readable





- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


not worth the cost of shipping both ways, and risk of damaging the
unit-BIC 2-speeds are very rare- try to find one on Ebay, you'll be
waiting a while.

yes, Arnie does appear to be knowledgeable- he asked for more info, so
I am supplying what I have

included is FR curve graph at 0 and -20 db, for both speeds, and
different types of tape

I'm sure he can draw a few conclusions from that, to support his
previous assumptions in the other thread-

and more importantly "why"






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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

"duty-honor-country" wrote
in message
oups.com
On Mar 26, 9:30 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"DeserTBoB" wrote in message

25-20 KHz at what level and with how many dBs
tolerance? If you can't provide those two key
addiational parameters, you're talking marketing crap,
not technology.


OK Arnie K- please evaluate this BIC T-4M deck- here is a
complete spec and review writeup- please tell me how the
dB's tolerance and levels shown in these tests, affect
this unit. It seems to have quite wide FR to me.

http://i9.tinypic.com/352re5f.jpg

http://i11.tinypic.com/4dgxj7p.jpg

http://i9.tinypic.com/2qcngyd.jpg

I do value educated, experienced opinions, backed by
fact. There are graphs for various levels and FR. Have
at it. Tell me how this vintage BIC 3.75 IPS cassette
deck, is "junk".


While I'd prefer to actually test the machine up front and personal, the
supplied test report is damning enough.

Please focus your attention on figure 3, the lower two plots, taken at your
preferred operational speed of 3.75 ips.

The upper of the two lower plots is taken at 3.75 ips and 0 dB. It does not
shed any light on response at 20 KHz becasue data stops at 15 KHz, where
response is already a whopping 7 dB down. Response is reasonably flat from
400 Hz to 5 KHz. There is an approximate 1 octave rise that averages about 1
dB, centered at about 100 Hz. This might cause a slight thickening of the
sound of a variety of instruments with strong response in the 100 Hz range,
such as pipe organs, bass guitars, etc.

Treble response is about 3 dB down at 10 KHz, and rolling off at 12 dB or
more per octave. This should be clearly audible as a noticable dulling of
the upper treble range. This will take the live edge off of brushed cymbals,
etc.

The same data taken from a CD burned on a PC and played on a $39 DVD player
is flat within a few tenths of a dB from 20 to 16 KHz, which along with
normal extensions of response outside this range, is sufficient to eliminate
any perceptible change in the sound quality of musical recordings. The same
is true of iPods and portable digital recorders such as the Microtrack
operating on 16/44 .wav files.

A modern digital recorder that was 3 dB down at 10 KHz would be called
"junk" by just about any knowlegeable person. One of the lowest quality
kinds of digital players around is the analog audio section of a computer's
optical (CD or DVD) drive. For years they have all been within 1 dB or
better of flat at 10 KHz. Of course, in digital mode, these same players
are perfectly flat and add no distortion.

I believe this test you asked me to review was published in Audio Magazine,
February 1980. This was prior to the introduction of the CD player by about
3 years.

IME, what really deep-sixed the cassette format in the ears of discerning
audiophiles such as myself was the fact that it was impossible to use a
cassette machine operating at either 1 7/8 or 3 3/4 ips to make sonically
identical transcriptions of a wide variety of CDs. Of course, the same was
true of open reel tape up to at least half track and 15 ips.

Based on my own personal measurements of cassette recorders, this BIC deck
must have been a high point of the development of the cassette recorder and
George W. Tillet (GWT) was a wizard on the test bench.

For example, most cassette tapes shift their characteristics enough from end
to end that GWT had to be very careful how he made his measurements. The
machine was probably carefully adjusted for this exact sample of cassette
tape. Using a different cassette from the same batch, or even removing and
replacing the cassette in the well, might lead to far less impressive
measurements. Compare this with digital recorders that produce the
identically same response with any of very many different pieces of media
from various batches and sources.


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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 12:26 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

IME, what really deep-sixed the cassette format in the ears of discerning
audiophiles such as myself was the fact that it was impossible to use a
cassette machine operating at either 1 7/8 or 3 3/4 ips to make sonically
identical transcriptions of a wide variety of CDs.



Does this mean you feel there's no such thing as a "good" cassette
deck?

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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

"Doc" wrote in message
ups.com
On Mar 27, 12:26 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

IME, what really deep-sixed the cassette format in the
ears of discerning audiophiles such as myself was the
fact that it was impossible to use a cassette machine
operating at either 1 7/8 or 3 3/4 ips to make sonically
identical transcriptions of a wide variety of CDs.



Does this mean you feel there's no such thing as a "good"
cassette deck?


Certainly none that are sonically transparent. But check this:

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_tapg.htm

2 track 15 ips on a near-SOTA analog pro machine doesn't quite make the
grade, either.

BTW, this test was performed by one of the leading analog tape technicans in
the midwest.


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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 27, 12:18 pm, "duty-honor-country"

OK Arnie K- please evaluate this BIC T-4M deck- here is a complete
spec and review writeup


If you want someone here to evaluate a recorder, don't bother with the
spec and review crap, send him the recorder. Arny's an honest guy.


actually arnii is not a honest person
he is a huge ego wrapped up in a gas bag
he promised to sue me years ago
just reacently he claimed to have my hearing tests and announced I was
nearly deaf
someone who continualy and habitually lies is not a honest man
george


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

Doc wrote:
On Mar 27, 12:26 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

IME, what really deep-sixed the cassette format in the ears of discerning
audiophiles such as myself was the fact that it was impossible to use a
cassette machine operating at either 1 7/8 or 3 3/4 ips to make sonically
identical transcriptions of a wide variety of CDs.


Does this mean you feel there's no such thing as a "good" cassette
deck?


Look, it's a freaking dictation format. The fact that it's even remotely
usable for music is a miracle.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 1:46 pm, "Doc" wrote:

Does this mean you feel there's no such thing as a "good" cassette
deck?


Relatively speaking, there is - relative to a worse cassette deck. But
relative to a CD or good reel-to-reel recorder, no.

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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

Relatively speaking, there is -- relative to a worse cassette deck.
But relative to a CD or good reel-to-reel recorder, no.


This is not altogether true. Nakamichis (and Tandbergs, likely) sound better
than many open-reel decks, simply because they seem to have better-sounding
electronics.


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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

In article ,
William Sommerwerck wrote:
Relatively speaking, there is -- relative to a worse cassette deck.
But relative to a CD or good reel-to-reel recorder, no.


This is not altogether true. Nakamichis (and Tandbergs, likely) sound better
than many open-reel decks, simply because they seem to have better-sounding
electronics.


He said GOOD reel-to-reel recorder.

It's true that there were a lot of absolutely miserable quarter-track
consumer open-reel machines made. And a Nak will beat them, true.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in
message
Relatively speaking, there is -- relative to a worse
cassette deck. But relative to a CD or good reel-to-reel
recorder, no.


This is not altogether true. Nakamichis (and Tandbergs,
likely) sound better than many open-reel decks, simply
because they seem to have better-sounding electronics.


The idea that some cassette machines sounded better than open-reels often
traced back to the fact that they had more of that *wonderful* mag tape,
level-dependent, HF rolloff; and started saturating at lower levels. It can
take the harsh edge off of a recording that has one. But, its not accurate.


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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

lol, well he did ask for it.
Very good response btw, full of good insight!

--
http://www.myspace.com/hawkinnc45
remove "spamtrap" in return address for replys.
http://web.nccray.net/jshodges/mommasaid/sss.htm
20% of all sales goes to the local food pantry.
Accepting any and all donations of pro audio equipment.
Thanks so much to those who have responded.
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"duty-honor-country" wrote
in message
oups.com
On Mar 26, 9:30 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"DeserTBoB" wrote in message

25-20 KHz at what level and with how many dBs
tolerance? If you can't provide those two key
addiational parameters, you're talking marketing crap,
not technology.


OK Arnie K- please evaluate this BIC T-4M deck- here is a
complete spec and review writeup- please tell me how the
dB's tolerance and levels shown in these tests, affect
this unit. It seems to have quite wide FR to me.

http://i9.tinypic.com/352re5f.jpg

http://i11.tinypic.com/4dgxj7p.jpg

http://i9.tinypic.com/2qcngyd.jpg

I do value educated, experienced opinions, backed by
fact. There are graphs for various levels and FR. Have
at it. Tell me how this vintage BIC 3.75 IPS cassette
deck, is "junk".


While I'd prefer to actually test the machine up front and personal, the
supplied test report is damning enough.

Please focus your attention on figure 3, the lower two plots, taken at
your preferred operational speed of 3.75 ips.

The upper of the two lower plots is taken at 3.75 ips and 0 dB. It does
not shed any light on response at 20 KHz becasue data stops at 15 KHz,
where response is already a whopping 7 dB down. Response is reasonably
flat from 400 Hz to 5 KHz. There is an approximate 1 octave rise that
averages about 1 dB, centered at about 100 Hz. This might cause a slight
thickening of the sound of a variety of instruments with strong response
in the 100 Hz range, such as pipe organs, bass guitars, etc.

Treble response is about 3 dB down at 10 KHz, and rolling off at 12 dB or
more per octave. This should be clearly audible as a noticable dulling of
the upper treble range. This will take the live edge off of brushed
cymbals, etc.

The same data taken from a CD burned on a PC and played on a $39 DVD
player is flat within a few tenths of a dB from 20 to 16 KHz, which along
with normal extensions of response outside this range, is sufficient to
eliminate any perceptible change in the sound quality of musical
recordings. The same is true of iPods and portable digital recorders such
as the Microtrack operating on 16/44 .wav files.

A modern digital recorder that was 3 dB down at 10 KHz would be called
"junk" by just about any knowlegeable person. One of the lowest quality
kinds of digital players around is the analog audio section of a
computer's optical (CD or DVD) drive. For years they have all been within
1 dB or better of flat at 10 KHz. Of course, in digital mode, these same
players are perfectly flat and add no distortion.

I believe this test you asked me to review was published in Audio
Magazine, February 1980. This was prior to the introduction of the CD
player by about 3 years.

IME, what really deep-sixed the cassette format in the ears of discerning
audiophiles such as myself was the fact that it was impossible to use a
cassette machine operating at either 1 7/8 or 3 3/4 ips to make sonically
identical transcriptions of a wide variety of CDs. Of course, the same
was true of open reel tape up to at least half track and 15 ips.

Based on my own personal measurements of cassette recorders, this BIC deck
must have been a high point of the development of the cassette recorder
and George W. Tillet (GWT) was a wizard on the test bench.

For example, most cassette tapes shift their characteristics enough from
end to end that GWT had to be very careful how he made his measurements.
The machine was probably carefully adjusted for this exact sample of
cassette tape. Using a different cassette from the same batch, or even
removing and replacing the cassette in the well, might lead to far less
impressive measurements. Compare this with digital recorders that produce
the identically same response with any of very many different pieces of
media from various batches and sources.



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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 1:28 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Look, it's a freaking dictation format. The fact that it's even remotely
usable for music is a miracle.


Absolutely right. Norelco designed the format for dictation machines,
not realizing that people would latch on to it as convenient format
for music storage. As it was, what manfactuers like Nakamichi were
able to achieve with the format was truly a miracle.

I've always wondered what might have happened if Norelco's engineers
had realized the potential of the format during the design stage.
They might have made different design decisions that could have
extended the life of the format in the marketplace.

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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

"RDOGuy" wrote in message
oups.com
On Mar 27, 1:28 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Look, it's a freaking dictation format. The fact that
it's even remotely usable for music is a miracle.


Absolutely right. Norelco designed the format for
dictation machines, not realizing that people would latch
on to it as convenient format for music storage. As it
was, what manfactuers like Nakamichi were able to achieve
with the format was truly a miracle.

I've always wondered what might have happened if
Norelco's engineers had realized the potential of the
format during the design stage. They might have made
different design decisions that could have extended the
life of the format in the marketplace.


One weakness was simply the width and length of the tape - not enough.

Another, was the format's heavy reliance on tolerances set by the cassette
shell.


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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

RDOGuy wrote:
I've always wondered what might have happened if Norelco's engineers
had realized the potential of the format during the design stage.
They might have made different design decisions that could have
extended the life of the format in the marketplace.


I doubt it. In spite of being a low grade dictation format, it had
an enormously long run in the marketplace. Nearly forty years,
for a short while even being the dominant release format thanks to
the Walkman. I can't imagine beating that, no matter how much better
engineered it was.

In spite of being arguably the worst release format ever (slightly edging
out the styrene injection-molded 45 for that spot in history), it just
kept going on, and on, and on.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 4:49 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

One weakness was simply the width and length of the tape - not enough.


Yes. But I suppose the design engineers felt they had to stick with
mulitples of previously existing tape stock. I've always assumed it
was no accident they settled on 1/8" tape - half the width of 1/4"
tape already being manufactured. Can anyone shed any light on this
issue?

Another, was the format's heavy reliance on tolerances set by the cassette
shell.


One of the same problems that eight-tracks had. The competing four-
track format was much better in that regard, but failed in the
consumer marketplace. But that format lasted a long time anyway.
Until the advent of digital systems, the ubiquitous broadcast "cart"
was in every radio station - and it was based on (if not identical to)
the four track design.


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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 4:57 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I doubt it. In spite of being a low grade dictation format, it had
an enormously long run in the marketplace. Nearly forty years,
for a short while even being the dominant release format thanks to
the Walkman. I can't imagine beating that, no matter how much better
engineered it was.


Granted. Now that I think of it, I can't think of very many formats
that have lasted longer.

John Dixon
Phonogenic Productions
Kansas City



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Richard Crowley Richard Crowley is offline
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
Doc wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote:
IME, what really deep-sixed the cassette format in the ears of
discerning
audiophiles such as myself was the fact that it was impossible to use a
cassette machine operating at either 1 7/8 or 3 3/4 ips to make
sonically
identical transcriptions of a wide variety of CDs.


Does this mean you feel there's no such thing as a "good" cassette
deck?


Look, it's a freaking dictation format. The fact that it's even remotely
usable for music is a miracle.


And Nakamichi cassette equipment is as close as I can recall in
the marketplace of actually making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.


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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

This is not altogether true. Nakamichis (and Tandbergs,
likely) sound better than many open-reel decks, simply
because they seem to have better-sounding electronics.


The idea that some cassette machines sounded better than
open-reels often traced back to the fact that they had more
of that *wonderful* mag tape, level-dependent, HF rolloff; and
started saturating at lower levels. It can take the harsh edge
off of a recording that has one. But, its not accurate.


In this case, that isn't what I or others are talking about.

Open-reel machines almost always have better specs, but they don't always
"sound better" than cassette decks. I owned open-reel machines -- including
a not-cheap Pioneer RT-2000 system -- that audibly degraded the input more
than a Nakamichi. Specifically, there was an increase in grain and grundge,
and a loss of transparency, regardless of recording level.

This was true when dubbing commercial recordings. When recording live, the
apparent quality was reversed, with the limitations of slow-speed recording
become apparent, and overriding the failings of the open-reel machines.


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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

I've always wondered what might have happened if Norelco's
engineers had realized the potential of the format during the
design stage. They might have made different design decisions
that could have extended the life of the format in the marketplace.


That's not likely. The limitations of cassette are those created by short
wavelengths and thin coatings. Nakamichi, et al, pushed the format to its
practical limit.

If you want a better understanding of just what was achieved, you should a
Nakamichi two-speed deck and make half-speed recordings on metal and
premium-iron-oxide tape. This throws into relief everything that's wrong
with slow-speed recording, but isn't readily audible at "full" speed with
most program material.


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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 12:26 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"duty-honor-country" wrote
in ooglegroups.com





On Mar 26, 9:30 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"DeserTBoB" wrote in message


25-20 KHz at what level and with how many dBs
tolerance? If you can't provide those two key
addiational parameters, you're talking marketing crap,
not technology.


OK Arnie K- please evaluate this BIC T-4M deck- here is a
complete spec and review writeup- please tell me how the
dB's tolerance and levels shown in these tests, affect
this unit. It seems to have quite wide FR to me.


http://i9.tinypic.com/352re5f.jpg


http://i11.tinypic.com/4dgxj7p.jpg


http://i9.tinypic.com/2qcngyd.jpg


I do value educated, experienced opinions, backed by
fact. There are graphs for various levels and FR. Have
at it. Tell me how this vintage BIC 3.75 IPS cassette
deck, is "junk".


While I'd prefer to actually test the machine up front and personal, the
supplied test report is damning enough.

Please focus your attention on figure 3, the lower two plots, taken at your
preferred operational speed of 3.75 ips.

The upper of the two lower plots is taken at 3.75 ips and 0 dB. It does not
shed any light on response at 20 KHz becasue data stops at 15 KHz, where
response is already a whopping 7 dB down. Response is reasonably flat from
400 Hz to 5 KHz. There is an approximate 1 octave rise that averages about 1
dB, centered at about 100 Hz. This might cause a slight thickening of the
sound of a variety of instruments with strong response in the 100 Hz range,
such as pipe organs, bass guitars, etc.

Treble response is about 3 dB down at 10 KHz, and rolling off at 12 dB or
more per octave. This should be clearly audible as a noticable dulling of
the upper treble range. This will take the live edge off of brushed cymbals,
etc.

The same data taken from a CD burned on a PC and played on a $39 DVD player
is flat within a few tenths of a dB from 20 to 16 KHz, which along with
normal extensions of response outside this range, is sufficient to eliminate
any perceptible change in the sound quality of musical recordings. The same
is true of iPods and portable digital recorders such as the Microtrack
operating on 16/44 .wav files.

A modern digital recorder that was 3 dB down at 10 KHz would be called
"junk" by just about any knowlegeable person. One of the lowest quality
kinds of digital players around is the analog audio section of a computer's
optical (CD or DVD) drive. For years they have all been within 1 dB or
better of flat at 10 KHz. Of course, in digital mode, these same players
are perfectly flat and add no distortion.

I believe this test you asked me to review was published in Audio Magazine,
February 1980. This was prior to the introduction of the CD player by about
3 years.

IME, what really deep-sixed the cassette format in the ears of discerning
audiophiles such as myself was the fact that it was impossible to use a
cassette machine operating at either 1 7/8 or 3 3/4 ips to make sonically
identical transcriptions of a wide variety of CDs. Of course, the same was
true of open reel tape up to at least half track and 15 ips.

Based on my own personal measurements of cassette recorders, this BIC deck
must have been a high point of the development of the cassette recorder and
George W. Tillet (GWT) was a wizard on the test bench.

For example, most cassette tapes shift their characteristics enough from end
to end that GWT had to be very careful how he made his measurements. The
machine was probably carefully adjusted for this exact sample of cassette
tape. Using a different cassette from the same batch, or even removing and
replacing the cassette in the well, might lead to far less impressive
measurements. Compare this with digital recorders that produce the
identically same response with any of very many different pieces of media
from various batches and sources.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



yes, I can see the response rolled off at the "0 dB" level

and it looks pretty darn good at the "- 20" level

now, explain why ?

why is it better at -20 dB ?

# 2- believe it or not, in actual listening tests, the cassette deck
is much better sounding than a CD player- I think it has a better
sound. I credit that to, there is more information within the
bandwidth it is operating at. While a CD may be flatter from 20-20k,
the analog tape captures more at 20-15k, than the CD does

and how much is really at 15k-20k to hear ? connecting a signal
generator to headphones and pushing it past 15k, a human being can't
hear anything

or, am I playing it at -20 dB ?

can anyone play it at -20 dB ? is it physically possible ?

someone explain that- my ears are open


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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 1:28 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Doc wrote:
On Mar 27, 12:26 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:


IME, what really deep-sixed the cassette format in the ears of discerning
audiophiles such as myself was the fact that it was impossible to use a
cassette machine operating at either 1 7/8 or 3 3/4 ips to make sonically
identical transcriptions of a wide variety of CDs.


Does this mean you feel there's no such thing as a "good" cassette
deck?


Look, it's a freaking dictation format. The fact that it's even remotely
usable for music is a miracle.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."



If you heard it through my single ended tube amps, you'd be amazed.
It's not my best source, I always thought cassette was ****, too.
Until I tried the arcane 3.75 IPS format of cassette.

the damn thing sounds good- I taped a double LP Elvis on metal tape,
and jacked up the input signal with a small solid state preamp- bulk
erased the tape first- it still sounded good. REALLY good.



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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 4:42 pm, "RDOGuy" wrote:
On Mar 27, 1:28 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Look, it's a freaking dictation format. The fact that it's even remotely
usable for music is a miracle.


Absolutely right. Norelco designed the format for dictation machines,
not realizing that people would latch on to it as convenient format
for music storage. As it was, what manfactuers like Nakamichi were
able to achieve with the format was truly a miracle.

I've always wondered what might have happened if Norelco's engineers
had realized the potential of the format during the design stage.
They might have made different design decisions that could have
extended the life of the format in the marketplace.



they didn't have 3.75 IPS compact cassettes, and metal/chrome tape
back then though

whole different ballgame-

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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 4:49 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"RDOGuy" wrote in message

oups.com





On Mar 27, 1:28 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:


Look, it's a freaking dictation format. The fact that
it's even remotely usable for music is a miracle.


Absolutely right. Norelco designed the format for
dictation machines, not realizing that people would latch
on to it as convenient format for music storage. As it
was, what manfactuers like Nakamichi were able to achieve
with the format was truly a miracle.


I've always wondered what might have happened if
Norelco's engineers had realized the potential of the
format during the design stage. They might have made
different design decisions that could have extended the
life of the format in the marketplace.


One weakness was simply the width and length of the tape - not enough.

Another, was the format's heavy reliance on tolerances set by the cassette
shell.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


true- it shared all the foibles of the 8-track cartridge format

well, almost all

but the 8 cart, being wider tape, actually didn't move around on the
head as much

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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 4:57 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
RDOGuy wrote:
I've always wondered what might have happened if Norelco's engineers
had realized the potential of the format during the design stage.
They might have made different design decisions that could have
extended the life of the format in the marketplace.


I doubt it. In spite of being a low grade dictation format, it had
an enormously long run in the marketplace. Nearly forty years,
for a short while even being the dominant release format thanks to
the Walkman. I can't imagine beating that, no matter how much better
engineered it was.

In spite of being arguably the worst release format ever (slightly edging
out the styrene injection-molded 45 for that spot in history), it just
kept going on, and on, and on.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."




it should have been 3.75 IPS from day one

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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 5:11 pm, "RDOGuy" wrote:
On Mar 27, 4:57 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I doubt it. In spite of being a low grade dictation format, it had
an enormously long run in the marketplace. Nearly forty years,
for a short while even being the dominant release format thanks to
the Walkman. I can't imagine beating that, no matter how much better
engineered it was.


Granted. Now that I think of it, I can't think of very many formats
that have lasted longer.

John Dixon
Phonogenic Productions
Kansas City



the compact cassette is the longest lasting tape format, bar none

shellac records lasted longer- from 1900-1960, but they are records

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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 5:31 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
I've always wondered what might have happened if Norelco's
engineers had realized the potential of the format during the
design stage. They might have made different design decisions
that could have extended the life of the format in the marketplace.


That's not likely. The limitations of cassette are those created by short
wavelengths and thin coatings. Nakamichi, et al, pushed the format to its
practical limit.

If you want a better understanding of just what was achieved, you should a
Nakamichi two-speed deck and make half-speed recordings on metal and
premium-iron-oxide tape. This throws into relief everything that's wrong
with slow-speed recording, but isn't readily audible at "full" speed with
most program material.


yet even at 1/2 speed, the NAKS hit 17 khz

I'd like to give hearing tests to everyone on this thread, and see
just how many of you can hear anything above 15 khz

a lot of this is a moot point- it's actually how much resolution is
captured in the 50-15k range, that means the most- extending to 20k
while shooting the 50-15k region full of digital rez "holes", is why
CD sounds so sterile and harsh



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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 3:16 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
In article ,

William Sommerwerck wrote:
Relatively speaking, there is -- relative to a worse cassette deck.
But relative to a CD or good reel-to-reel recorder, no.


This is not altogether true. Nakamichis (and Tandbergs, likely) sound better
than many open-reel decks, simply because they seem to have better-sounding
electronics.


He said GOOD reel-to-reel recorder.

It's true that there were a lot of absolutely miserable quarter-track
consumer open-reel machines made. And a Nak will beat them, true.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."




do some back to back testing there, and you'll find that not to be
true

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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck3.75 IPS

Edi Zubovic wrote:

Lookie! -- and I thought, Eumig FL-1000uP was rare enough...


I have one of those. I loved that thing back in the '80's.
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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 10:47 pm, "duty-honor-country"
wrote:
On Mar 27, 12:26 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:



"duty-honor-country" wrote
in ooglegroups.com


On Mar 26, 9:30 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"DeserTBoB" wrote in message


25-20 KHz at what level and with how many dBs
tolerance? If you can't provide those two key
addiational parameters, you're talking marketing crap,
not technology.


OK Arnie K- please evaluate this BIC T-4M deck- here is a
complete spec and review writeup- please tell me how the
dB's tolerance and levels shown in these tests, affect
this unit. It seems to have quite wide FR to me.


http://i9.tinypic.com/352re5f.jpg


http://i11.tinypic.com/4dgxj7p.jpg


http://i9.tinypic.com/2qcngyd.jpg


I do value educated, experienced opinions, backed by
fact. There are graphs for various levels and FR. Have
at it. Tell me how this vintage BIC 3.75 IPS cassette
deck, is "junk".


While I'd prefer to actually test the machine up front and personal, the
supplied test report is damning enough.


Please focus your attention on figure 3, the lower two plots, taken at your
preferred operational speed of 3.75 ips.


The upper of the two lower plots is taken at 3.75 ips and 0 dB. It does not
shed any light on response at 20 KHz becasue data stops at 15 KHz, where
response is already a whopping 7 dB down. Response is reasonably flat from
400 Hz to 5 KHz. There is an approximate 1 octave rise that averages about 1
dB, centered at about 100 Hz. This might cause a slight thickening of the
sound of a variety of instruments with strong response in the 100 Hz range,
such as pipe organs, bass guitars, etc.


Treble response is about 3 dB down at 10 KHz, and rolling off at 12 dB or
more per octave. This should be clearly audible as a noticable dulling of
the upper treble range. This will take the live edge off of brushed cymbals,
etc.


The same data taken from a CD burned on a PC and played on a $39 DVD player
is flat within a few tenths of a dB from 20 to 16 KHz, which along with
normal extensions of response outside this range, is sufficient to eliminate
any perceptible change in the sound quality of musical recordings. The same
is true of iPods and portable digital recorders such as the Microtrack
operating on 16/44 .wav files.


A modern digital recorder that was 3 dB down at 10 KHz would be called
"junk" by just about any knowlegeable person. One of the lowest quality
kinds of digital players around is the analog audio section of a computer's
optical (CD or DVD) drive. For years they have all been within 1 dB or
better of flat at 10 KHz. Of course, in digital mode, these same players
are perfectly flat and add no distortion.


I believe this test you asked me to review was published in Audio Magazine,
February 1980. This was prior to the introduction of the CD player by about
3 years.


IME, what really deep-sixed the cassette format in the ears of discerning
audiophiles such as myself was the fact that it was impossible to use a
cassette machine operating at either 1 7/8 or 3 3/4 ips to make sonically
identical transcriptions of a wide variety of CDs. Of course, the same was
true of open reel tape up to at least half track and 15 ips.


Based on my own personal measurements of cassette recorders, this BIC deck
must have been a high point of the development of the cassette recorder and
George W. Tillet (GWT) was a wizard on the test bench.


For example, most cassette tapes shift their characteristics enough from end
to end that GWT had to be very careful how he made his measurements. The
machine was probably carefully adjusted for this exact sample of cassette
tape. Using a different cassette from the same batch, or even removing and
replacing the cassette in the well, might lead to far less impressive
measurements. Compare this with digital recorders that produce the
identically same response with any of very many different pieces of media
from various batches and sources.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


yes, I can see the response rolled off at the "0 dB" level

and it looks pretty darn good at the "- 20" level

now, explain why ?

why is it better at -20 dB ?

# 2- believe it or not, in actual listening tests, the cassette deck
is much better sounding than a CD player- I think it has a better
sound. I credit that to, there is more information within the
bandwidth it is operating at. While a CD may be flatter from 20-20k,
the analog tape captures more at 20-15k, than the CD does


That perception is related to tape recording issues like saturation
and head bump. In terms of accuracy, the CD is much better.

and how much is really at 15k-20k to hear ? connecting a signal
generator to headphones and pushing it past 15k, a human being can't
hear anything


Many people can here well past 15 kHz. Just ask a group of people how
many of them can hear a high-pitched signal when a standard television
is on and at least some of the younger people will respond positively.
The real question here, however, concerns whether or not the highest
frequencies can be perceived when playing music. Psychoacoustic
research suggests that these frequencies are masked by lower
frequencies when playing back a musical recording.so it is possible to
get away poorer high-frequency response, at least for the majority of
listeners.


or, am I playing it at -20 dB ?

can anyone play it at -20 dB ? is it physically possible ?

someone explain that- my ears are open


Self-erasure occurs if you try to record a louder signal at high
frequencies resulting in a sharply reduced playback signal. This is
not fatal for recording music since there is very little energy at the
higher frequencies.

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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

On Mar 27, 9:51 pm, "duty-honor-country"
wrote:

they didn't have 3.75 IPS compact cassettes, and metal/chrome tape
back then though

whole different ballgame-


Yes... the improved tape fomulations that were developed later did
improve the quality of the cassette recordings. Yes... higher speeds
helped, too. I think the point Scott was making was that the original
designers never meant for the format to be used for anything except
voice dictation. They chose the slower speed so that the cassettes
would run longer - which, of course, would have been a big selling
point for a dictation system. My point was that IF it had occurred to
them that the format would have been used for music, they very well
might have opted for a higher speed, or made other engineering choices
that would have improved the audio performance. It was hardly a
secret that slower tape speed and narrower track width (just to name a
couple) would degrade the audio performance, so the choices they made
were deliberate, and based on the market they were trying to serve.

Here's another thought: the very reason metal/chrome tapes were
developed in the first place was to improve the performance of
cassette systems. I wasn't in the professional marketplace when those
tape formulations were introduced. But I'm sure not aware of any
professional machines that were set up to use them - perhaps someone
else knows of some. If there had fewer limitations in the basic
design, would there have been enough pressure in the marketplace for
those tape formulations to be developed?

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I met a guy recently who still has some shellac record blanks in his
collection. Also has some very large disks (way oversized ones) That I am
sure ya couldnt find a player for nowadays.

--
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remove "spamtrap" in return address for replys.
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20% of all sales goes to the local food pantry.
Accepting any and all donations of pro audio equipment.
Thanks so much to those who have responded.
"duty-honor-country" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 27, 5:11 pm, "RDOGuy" wrote:
On Mar 27, 4:57 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I doubt it. In spite of being a low grade dictation format, it had
an enormously long run in the marketplace. Nearly forty years,
for a short while even being the dominant release format thanks to
the Walkman. I can't imagine beating that, no matter how much better
engineered it was.


Granted. Now that I think of it, I can't think of very many formats
that have lasted longer.

John Dixon
Phonogenic Productions
Kansas City



the compact cassette is the longest lasting tape format, bar none

shellac records lasted longer- from 1900-1960, but they are records


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Default ATTENTION: ARNIE KREUGER-evaluate this BIC T-4M cassette deck 3.75 IPS

I think the point Scott was making was that the designers
never meant for the format to be used for anything except
voice dictation.


This is not _quite_ true.

Philips had an earlier machine using 3.25" reels sitting on top of a wide,
narrow box. It ran at 1.875" and, if I recall correctly, got to 7kHz or 8kHz
at that speed -- which is much better than what's needed for dictation, and
perfectly satisfactory for non-critical music reproduction.


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the compact cassette is the longest lasting tape format, bar none
shellac records lasted longer- from 1900-1960, but they are records


Uh... Compact Cassettes, CDs, open-reel tapes, and DVDs are also records.


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"duty-honor-country" wrote
in message
oups.com
On Mar 27, 5:31 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
I've always wondered what might have happened if
Norelco's engineers had realized the potential of the
format during the design stage. They might have made
different design decisions
that could have extended the life of the format in the
marketplace.


That's not likely. The limitations of cassette are those
created by short wavelengths and thin coatings.
Nakamichi, et al, pushed the format to its practical
limit.

If you want a better understanding of just what was
achieved, you should a Nakamichi two-speed deck and make
half-speed recordings on metal and premium-iron-oxide
tape. This throws into relief everything that's wrong
with slow-speed recording, but isn't readily audible at
"full" speed with most program material.


yet even at 1/2 speed, the NAKS hit 17 khz


In what sense? In some sense the BIC hit 17 KHz. They just didn't do it when
the chips were down, and some other less-demanding times as well.

I'd like to give hearing tests to everyone on this
thread, and see just how many of you can hear anything
above 15 khz


I'd like to see a test report for one of the exotic Naks along the line of
the BIC report I just analyzed.

a lot of this is a moot point- it's actually how much
resolution is captured in the 50-15k range, that means
the most- extending to 20k while shooting the 50-15k
region full of digital rez "holes", is why CD sounds so
sterile and harsh


CDs don't necessarily sound sterile and harsh. They simply sound like
whatever was recorded on them. If they are recorded with stuff that is
sterile and harsh, then there you go.

What CDs don't do is round off the rough edges that may have been recorded
on them, which is what the cassette format clearly does.


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do some back to back testing there, and you'll find
that not to be true


Sorry, but I've done it. You can easily find open-reel decks, that even when
correctly set up, simply don't "sound right" -- the output is plainly
distinguishable from the input. The only "bad-sounding" Nakamichi I've heard
is the 600. The others make dubs that are virtually indistinguishable from
the input.


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Lookie! -- and I thought, Eumig FL-1000uP was rare enough...

That's the one with the asymmetrical transport, right? They beat Nakamichi
to market with that one.


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