[Richard Webb[_3_]]

On Fri 2012-Apr-13 20:12, Jeff Henig writes:
snip

However, it also occurs to me that contemporary small-ensemble
amplified a cappella is a strange beast that isn't very widely
known. This newsgroup being what it is, I'd assume that anything I'd
bring up would be old hat to you all.

Not necessarily. I've stumbled across only one such group
in my travels and I've been doing this for years.

And we know what assuming does.

That we do.

I just hope that I'm not sounding argumentative or condescending
when I bring this stuff up. It's just my experience, narrow and
specific, in which I've spent a lot of time. And a lot of the things
that have to do with singing rhythm bass are counter-intuitive to
highly trained singers and engineers.

Indeed, and as you note, that's why you have trouble getting what you want/need from an engineer who's not familiar with you. IN that situation, the best you can do, especially if he/she hasn't had a chance to get acquainted first, is give fair
warning in riders and the like that you're unconventional.

IN fact, one of the first things I'd tell an unfamiliar
engineer when choosing a microphone for you would be "think
kick drum." Just tell him that whenever he looks at you
with an eye toward what he's supposed to do about you
picture not you standing there, but a kick drum.


This is one reason I like to hear a rehearsal or two of a
new ensemble I'm going to record, especially if I'm expected to wear a producer's hat as well. Even if somebody else is
engineering I can then provide some guidance regarding
aspects that may not fit the conventional.

But you're right, this does drift quite a bit from
mxsmanic's question. In most applications what he sees is
faulty technique for a variety of reasons.


Regards,
Richard
--
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| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[Jeff Henig]

Richard Webb wrote:
On Fri 2012-Apr-13 20:12, Jeff Henig writes:
snip

However, it also occurs to me that contemporary small-ensemble
amplified a cappella is a strange beast that isn't very widely
known. This newsgroup being what it is, I'd assume that anything I'd
bring up would be old hat to you all.

Not necessarily. I've stumbled across only one such group
in my travels and I've been doing this for years.

And we know what assuming does.

That we do.

I just hope that I'm not sounding argumentative or condescending
when I bring this stuff up. It's just my experience, narrow and
specific, in which I've spent a lot of time. And a lot of the things
that have to do with singing rhythm bass are counter-intuitive to
highly trained singers and engineers.

Indeed, and as you note, that's why you have trouble getting what you want/need from an engineer who's not familiar with you. IN that situation, the best you can do, especially if he/she hasn't had a chance to get acquainted first, is give fair
warning in riders and the like that you're unconventional.

IN fact, one of the first things I'd tell an unfamiliar
engineer when choosing a microphone for you would be "think
kick drum." Just tell him that whenever he looks at you
with an eye toward what he's supposed to do about you
picture not you standing there, but a kick drum.


This is one reason I like to hear a rehearsal or two of a
new ensemble I'm going to record, especially if I'm expected to wear a producer's hat as well. Even if somebody else is
engineering I can then provide some guidance regarding
aspects that may not fit the conventional.

But you're right, this does drift quite a bit from
mxsmanic's question. In most applications what he sees is
faulty technique for a variety of reasons.


Regards,
Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

I greatly appreciate the feedback, Richard. (And realizing how
incongruous that sounds in a NG dedicated to pro sound. Bwahahahahahah...)

I'm very thankful that we have an engineer who knows what he's doing.
Also one of our vocalists is OCD about researching sound and has been in
a cappella music for twenty years. Between the two of them we get some
very good live sound, and I'd absolutely hate to start from scratch again.

Our biggest two problems are arranging and recording. We are currently
working with someone who is an out-and-out genius when it comes to both.
Replacing him would be a nightmare--even if given an Ardent or a Muscle
Shoals. The dude kicks butt with just an Mbox Mini and a Mac. Seriously.
And I'd love to see what he could do with that kind of facility...

His biggest issue is that he over-schedules himself and ends up flaking
out. But I guess that comes with the territory--he's a musician, after
all. ;^)

As far as my own abilities, I know just enough to get me in trouble. I
could put together a decent live show and maybe record a decent project,
but I don't want just decent. That's why I'm here learning.

It's interesting going from what I know in a cappella recording
technique to more conventional stuff--instrumental rock/jazz and
orchestral recording. Being that the project I'm currently working on
will be a hybrid of both, I think I need to be much more knowledgeable
about your guys' world.

I think in a number of ways, a cappella has hindered my recording
development. I mean I know how to mic a guitar cab and I've some idea of
micing a drum kit, or my Hammond--maybe even a piano, but getting the
gain staging right, getting a good EQ on the board, all of that stuff is
something I feel woefully inadequate with.

My hope is that I can do well enough with my first recording and local
performances that I can afford a proper producer and engineer for the
next project. I also hope to learn enough in the process to be able to
communicate my ideas in depth to the folks behind the board.

---Jeff

[polymod]

"Jeff Henig" wrote in message
...
Richard Webb wrote:
On Fri 2012-Apr-13 20:12, Jeff Henig writes:
snip

However, it also occurs to me that contemporary small-ensemble
amplified a cappella is a strange beast that isn't very widely
known. This newsgroup being what it is, I'd assume that anything I'd
bring up would be old hat to you all.

Not necessarily. I've stumbled across only one such group
in my travels and I've been doing this for years.

And we know what assuming does.

That we do.

I just hope that I'm not sounding argumentative or condescending
when I bring this stuff up. It's just my experience, narrow and
specific, in which I've spent a lot of time. And a lot of the things
that have to do with singing rhythm bass are counter-intuitive to
highly trained singers and engineers.

Indeed, and as you note, that's why you have trouble getting what you
want/need from an engineer who's not familiar with you. IN that
situation, the best you can do, especially if he/she hasn't had a chance
to get acquainted first, is give fair
warning in riders and the like that you're unconventional.

IN fact, one of the first things I'd tell an unfamiliar
engineer when choosing a microphone for you would be "think
kick drum." Just tell him that whenever he looks at you
with an eye toward what he's supposed to do about you
picture not you standing there, but a kick drum.


This is one reason I like to hear a rehearsal or two of a
new ensemble I'm going to record, especially if I'm expected to wear a
producer's hat as well. Even if somebody else is
engineering I can then provide some guidance regarding
aspects that may not fit the conventional.

But you're right, this does drift quite a bit from
mxsmanic's question. In most applications what he sees is
faulty technique for a variety of reasons.


Regards,
Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

I greatly appreciate the feedback, Richard. (And realizing how incongruous
that sounds in a NG dedicated to pro sound. Bwahahahahahah...)

I'm very thankful that we have an engineer who knows what he's doing. Also
one of our vocalists is OCD about researching sound and has been in a
cappella music for twenty years. Between the two of them we get some very
good live sound, and I'd absolutely hate to start from scratch again.

Our biggest two problems are arranging and recording. We are currently
working with someone who is an out-and-out genius when it comes to both.
Replacing him would be a nightmare--even if given an Ardent or a Muscle
Shoals. The dude kicks butt with just an Mbox Mini and a Mac. Seriously.
And I'd love to see what he could do with that kind of facility...

His biggest issue is that he over-schedules himself and ends up flaking
out. But I guess that comes with the territory--he's a musician, after
all. ;^)

As far as my own abilities, I know just enough to get me in trouble. I
could put together a decent live show and maybe record a decent project,
but I don't want just decent. That's why I'm here learning.

It's interesting going from what I know in a cappella recording technique
to more conventional stuff--instrumental rock/jazz and orchestral
recording. Being that the project I'm currently working on will be a
hybrid of both, I think I need to be much more knowledgeable about your
guys' world.

I think in a number of ways, a cappella has hindered my recording
development. I mean I know how to mic a guitar cab and I've some idea of
micing a drum kit, or my Hammond--maybe even a piano, but getting the gain
staging right, getting a good EQ on the board, all of that stuff is
something I feel woefully inadequate with.

My hope is that I can do well enough with my first recording and local
performances that I can afford a proper producer and engineer for the next
project. I also hope to learn enough in the process to be able to
communicate my ideas in depth to the folks behind the board.

Good luck Jeff .
Just keep recording and you'll get better and better at it. Do a lot of
reading. Compare the sound of your recordings with others in the same realm.
And.....never think you're not ready to record or you'll spend your whole
life never recording!

I grew up on the performer side of the 'glass'. But the other side is what
keeps the building from falling down


Poly

[polymod]

"Jeff Henig" wrote in message
...
"polymod" wrote:


Good luck Jeff .
Just keep recording and you'll get better and better at it. Do a lot of
reading. Compare the sound of your recordings with others in the same
realm.
And.....never think you're not ready to record or you'll spend your whole
life never recording!

Oh crap, talk about hittin' the nail on the head! I get so intimidated
when
I hear great projects, and I want mine to sound like them--so I end up
saying I need to upgrade all my gear and knowhow before I record. Time,
money, yada, yada. And I sit here not recording and shaking my fists!
*woeful grin*

Gear lust is one of the worst desires outside of autotune G
I released a solo CD a few years back that was done on an outdated computer
running Windows 98, a 10 year old version of Sonar, and a variety of classic
analog synths, most which have no midi capabilities. Long story short, the
CD did quite well.....better than I could have ever anticipated.
Knowing your equipment is key.

Here I am with a Digi001, an Mbox2 Mini, and a Delta1010LT, wanting that
Neve board and Otari 2" 24 track--and doing nothing but a bit of writing
because I'm waiting to be where I can get the sound I hear on "Grace" by
Buckley or Led Zep III... Yeah, sometimes I'm an idiot. I have something
that'll get the job done, I just need to DO it.

Anytime you need a push, give me a holler

I grew up on the performer side of the 'glass'. But the other side is
what
keeps the building from falling down
Roger that. I don't know if I'll get to that level, other than recording
other folks' demos. I'll be happy to do my own stuff justice.

Look at it this way....I'm guessing most engineers can't play like I can
play a musical instrument. But it shouldn't stop them from trying.
I'd think it would work the other way around also.

Poly

[Nil]

On 14 Apr 2012, "polymod" wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

Gear lust is one of the worst desires outside of autotune G
I released a solo CD a few years back that was done on an outdated
computer running Windows 98, a 10 year old version of Sonar, and a
variety of classic analog synths, most which have no midi
capabilities. Long story short, the CD did quite well.....better
than I could have ever anticipated. Knowing your equipment is key.

I have it, and it sounds fabulous! Excellent classic synth sounds and
production. I listened to it a couple of weeks ago, and I was impressed
all over again.

[polymod]

"Nil" wrote in message
...
On 14 Apr 2012, "polymod" wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

Gear lust is one of the worst desires outside of autotune G
I released a solo CD a few years back that was done on an outdated
computer running Windows 98, a 10 year old version of Sonar, and a
variety of classic analog synths, most which have no midi
capabilities. Long story short, the CD did quite well.....better
than I could have ever anticipated. Knowing your equipment is key.

I have it, and it sounds fabulous! Excellent classic synth sounds and
production. I listened to it a couple of weeks ago, and I was impressed
all over again.

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

Poly

[Jeff Henig]

polymod wrote:
"Jeff Henig" wrote in message
...
"polymod" wrote:

Good luck Jeff .
Just keep recording and you'll get better and better at it. Do a lot of
reading. Compare the sound of your recordings with others in the same
realm.
And.....never think you're not ready to record or you'll spend your whole
life never recording!
Oh crap, talk about hittin' the nail on the head! I get so intimidated
when
I hear great projects, and I want mine to sound like them--so I end up
saying I need to upgrade all my gear and knowhow before I record. Time,
money, yada, yada. And I sit here not recording and shaking my fists!
*woeful grin*

Gear lust is one of the worst desires outside of autotune G

LOL! I know THAT'S right.

I released a solo CD a few years back that was done on an outdated computer
running Windows 98, a 10 year old version of Sonar, and a variety of classic
analog synths, most which have no midi capabilities. Long story short, the
CD did quite well.....better than I could have ever anticipated.
Knowing your equipment is key.

1. My songwriting partner and I released an a cappella project back in
2002 using the Digi001/ProTools 5.something, OS9, and a couple of Altec
mics that were equivalent to a k84 or something. It didn't sell a whole
lot (we didn't really market it all that well), but we were both pretty
happy with the sonic results. I don't know why I think I can't do good
stuff with it again, especially since I've a much better mic now in the
Rode K2. (shakin' my head)

2. I'd love to hear that CD. Any chance I can buy a copy off you?


Here I am with a Digi001, an Mbox2 Mini, and a Delta1010LT, wanting that
Neve board and Otari 2" 24 track--and doing nothing but a bit of writing
because I'm waiting to be where I can get the sound I hear on "Grace" by
Buckley or Led Zep III... Yeah, sometimes I'm an idiot. I have something
that'll get the job done, I just need to DO it.

Anytime you need a push, give me a holler

Pahahahahahah! Will do. *grin*


I grew up on the performer side of the 'glass'. But the other side is
what
keeps the building from falling down
Roger that. I don't know if I'll get to that level, other than recording
other folks' demos. I'll be happy to do my own stuff justice.

Look at it this way....I'm guessing most engineers can't play like I can
play a musical instrument. But it shouldn't stop them from trying.
I'd think it would work the other way around also.

Poly



True enough. Aside from my songwriting partner (who is our arranger and
recording engineer I was talking about earlier), there aren't many
engineers whose singing I really want to hear.

---Jeff

[Jeff Henig]

Richard Webb wrote:
First, sorry about that, limitations in subject length meant my reader/editor grunged subject line.

On Sat 2012-Apr-14 10:57, Jeff Henig writes:
snip

Indeed, and as you note, that's why you have trouble getting what you
want/need from an engineer who's not familiar with you. IN that
situation, the best you can do, especially if he/she hasn't had a
chance to get acquainted first, is give fair
warning in riders and the like that you're unconventional.
snip

I greatly appreciate the feedback, Richard. (And realizing how
incongruous that sounds in a NG dedicated to pro sound.
Bwahahahahahah...)

nO problem. Done plenty of conventional a capella, the
usual barbershop and other types, usually outdoors at some
sort of festival or at a community event. just turn off the monitors, place a couple mics to capture them, let 'em go.

That's pretty much how we did our choral projects when I was in
collegiate choruses. Once on the risers with mics in front of us, once
in a circle with the mics in the center.


I'm very thankful that we have an engineer who knows what he's
doing. Also one of our vocalists is OCD about researching sound and
has been in a cappella music for twenty years. Between the two of
them we get some very good live sound, and I'd absolutely hate to
start from scratch again.

YEp, it's a team effort, where the team knows what it needs
to do, and how to get there.


ON the arranging and recording front, it sounds like you've
got most of the battle whipped though.

Sure, until my buddy flakes again. (shakin' my head)

snip

It's interesting going from what I know in a cappella recording
technique to more conventional stuff--instrumental rock/jazz and
orchestral recording. Being that the project I'm currently working
on will be a hybrid of both, I think I need to be much more
knowledgeable about your guys' world.

YOu're in the right place. Polymod gave you some good
advice too. The one thing I could add to it is, trust your
ears. Know your equipment and your rooms, that way you can
learn to interpret what your ears are telling you. Know the space you're going to work in, and know your equipment, then let your ears do the rest. They'll tell you when you need
to do more work on something. That's the part that will
suck if I really have to give up remote truck for the haul
it into a back room rig in a rack for recording. I like
that control room in the back of the truck. I know it. I
spent enough time when we first bought it just listening to
music on both sets of monitors in it so that I knew what the room was telling me.

That's a definite must. I can't wait to have a room pretty much
dedicated to music--and we're moving to the new house right now. It's a
sunroom with a lot of brick and windows, but I know how I want to treat
it to keep it from being extremely live.

I may also have access to a performance hall on campus that has been
fitted for recording purposes. If that's the case, the sunroom may just
become my songwriting lab and mixing room exclusively.


I think in a number of ways, a cappella has hindered my recording
development. I mean I know how to mic a guitar cab and I've some
idea of micing a drum kit, or my Hammond--maybe even a piano, but
getting the gain staging right, getting a good EQ on the board, all
of that stuff is something I feel woefully inadequate with.

Again, know the gear, know your environment then trust your
ears. they'll tell you when it's right and when it's not.

My hope is that I can do well enough with my first recording and
local performances that I can afford a proper producer and engineer
for the next project. I also hope to learn enough in the process to
be able to communicate my ideas in depth to the folks behind the
board.

That's the key right there, and in the process of learning
your equipment and your working environment you'll be able
to do that. I've had the opposite fun. The band comes in,
I've never heard them before and when I ask them what sound
they're going for the drummer plays me early Zeppelin, then
is surprised when I don't close mic the kit and stick him in a closet somewhere g.

Oh, eek! It's amazing to me how many musicians aren't willing to put in
the time and effort to study their history and do honor to their craft.
Before I was a singer, I was a fan, and I studied the fool out of my
fave bands. That whole creating depth by using mic distance thing was
drilled into my head pretty early--in fact, WAY before I had anything to
record with, I knew this was a technique I wanted to use.


Thanks for the interjections, Richard!


Regards,
Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

First, sorry about that, limitations in subject length meant my reader/editor grunged subject line.

On Sat 2012-Apr-14 10:57, Jeff Henig writes:
snip

Indeed, and as you note, that's why you have trouble getting what you
want/need from an engineer who's not familiar with you. IN that
situation, the best you can do, especially if he/she hasn't had a
chance to get acquainted first, is give fair
warning in riders and the like that you're unconventional.
snip

I greatly appreciate the feedback, Richard. (And realizing how
incongruous that sounds in a NG dedicated to pro sound.
Bwahahahahahah...)

nO problem. Done plenty of conventional a capella, the
usual barbershop and other types, usually outdoors at some
sort of festival or at a community event. just turn off the monitors, place a couple mics to capture them, let 'em go.

I'm very thankful that we have an engineer who knows what he's
doing. Also one of our vocalists is OCD about researching sound and
has been in a cappella music for twenty years. Between the two of
them we get some very good live sound, and I'd absolutely hate to
start from scratch again.

YEp, it's a team effort, where the team knows what it needs
to do, and how to get there.


ON the arranging and recording front, it sounds like you've
got most of the battle whipped though.
snip

It's interesting going from what I know in a cappella recording
technique to more conventional stuff--instrumental rock/jazz and
orchestral recording. Being that the project I'm currently working
on will be a hybrid of both, I think I need to be much more
knowledgeable about your guys' world.

YOu're in the right place. Polymod gave you some good
advice too. The one thing I could add to it is, trust your
ears. Know your equipment and your rooms, that way you can
learn to interpret what your ears are telling you. Know the space you're going to work in, and know your equipment, then let your ears do the rest. They'll tell you when you need
to do more work on something. That's the part that will
suck if I really have to give up remote truck for the haul
it into a back room rig in a rack for recording. I like
that control room in the back of the truck. I know it. I
spent enough time when we first bought it just listening to
music on both sets of monitors in it so that I knew what the room was telling me.

I think in a number of ways, a cappella has hindered my recording
development. I mean I know how to mic a guitar cab and I've some
idea of micing a drum kit, or my Hammond--maybe even a piano, but
getting the gain staging right, getting a good EQ on the board, all
of that stuff is something I feel woefully inadequate with.

Again, know the gear, know your environment then trust your
ears. they'll tell you when it's right and when it's not.

My hope is that I can do well enough with my first recording and
local performances that I can afford a proper producer and engineer
for the next project. I also hope to learn enough in the process to
be able to communicate my ideas in depth to the folks behind the
board.

That's the key right there, and in the process of learning
your equipment and your working environment you'll be able
to do that. I've had the opposite fun. The band comes in,
I've never heard them before and when I ask them what sound
they're going for the drummer plays me early Zeppelin, then
is surprised when I don't close mic the kit and stick him in a closet somewhere g.

Regards,
Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[polymod]

"Jeff Henig" wrote in message
...

2. I'd love to hear that CD. Any chance I can buy a copy off you?

Check out the samples on my website before you spend any of your hard earned
$$ g

http://www.sonicmusic.net/mp3.htm


Poly