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Mxsmanic Mxsmanic is offline
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their mouths right
up against the microphones when they sing?
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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:25:19 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their mouths right
up against the microphones when they sing?


Because they are not properly trained and can't sing loudly enough.

d
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Mxsmanic wrote:

Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their mouths right
up against the microphones when they sing?


It's a habit they pick up from all those "auditions".

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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

On 4/13/2012 2:26 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 20:25:19 +0200,
wrote:

Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their mouths right
up against the microphones when they sing?


Because they are not properly trained and can't sing loudly enough.

d


Hmmmm.... Wondering if this is a test post to see
who doesn't have "Mxsmanic" in their kill file.

Truly (based on past posts) do you believe "Mxsmanic"
cares to actually learn anything on this subject?
==

Later...
Ron Capik cynic-in-training
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Mxsmanic wrote:
Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their mouths right
up against the microphones when they sing?


1. Because they are unskilled and have not learned proper microphone technique.

2. Because they are used to using horrible PA systems that are being run on
the edge of feedback and need all the gain they can get.

In general, not a sign of a competent vocalist, but some people just won't
stop eating the microphone. A good solution for microphone-eaters is to
give them a fake microphone to sing into and then a narrow pattern mike
six inches away to actually use.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

On 4/13/2012 4:26 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their mouths right
up against the microphones when they sing?


1. Because they are unskilled and have not learned proper microphone technique.

2. Because they are used to using horrible PA systems that are being run on
the edge of feedback and need all the gain they can get.

In general, not a sign of a competent vocalist, but some people just won't
stop eating the microphone. A good solution for microphone-eaters is to
give them a fake microphone to sing into and then a narrow pattern mike
six inches away to actually use.
--scott



3. They want to hide that they're lip syncing.
==

Later...
Ron Capik
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Ron Capik wrote:

3. They want to hide that they're lip syncing.


Note to self: no, you may not drink coffee while reading usenet.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen


Later...
Ron Capik



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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Jeff Henig wrote:

Not entirely true. Some of us are intentionally using proximity effect. I
do this when I sing rhythm bass. Heck, sometimes I even bring my fingers up
around the top to seal it completely against my mouth. But it's a specific
effect I'm looking for.


Those are crooners, not singers. Guys like that are better off using a
mike with an outrageously tight pattern like a KMS150 which lets you get
that sound without getting so close you pop it.

Not to mention that THAT is what a microphone is FOR. Otherwise, we could
just get rid of electrical sound reinforcement altogether and go back to
proper building design and singers who project.


I'd be in favor of that, absolutely.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

On Fri 2012-Apr-13 14:26, Don Pearce writes:
Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their mouths right
up against the microphones when they sing?


Because they are not properly trained and can't sing loudly enough.


Agreed, many aren't trained at all. But then even if
they've had a bit of training, which usually isn't true,
their choice of microphone for the application doesn't help
matters. i note this especially with folks who use the
sm-58 because that's what they've seen other people use.
Yeah yeah, before anybody mentions it, I know about the
resistor mod and have turned others onto it.

OFtentimes introducing them to a different microphone
coupled with a little bit of training can do wonders to cure that.

Regards,
Richard
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their mouths right
up against the microphones when they sing?


Insecurity, probably. I've seen many well-known singers do this (Elton
John, Bill Joel, et al).

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com


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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their
mouths right up against the microphones when they sing?


1. Because they are unskilled and have not learned proper microphone
technique.



And they have seen starlets do it on TV while miming to music.

geoff


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Fran Guidry Fran Guidry is offline
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

On Friday, April 13, 2012 8:25:19 AM UTC-10, Mxsmanic wrote:
Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their mouths right
up against the microphones when they sing?


In at least some cases, because the engineer running the PA instructs them to do so, and that same engineer EQs and gain stages things to require that technique.

Pretty much the same as Scott's #2, but I've gotten this instruction more than once.

Fran
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Jenn wrote:

Insecurity, probably. I've seen many well-known singers do this (Elton
John, Bill Joel, et al).


You'll often see Elton John with a huge foam ball on the mike which
appears designed to keep him away from the actual microphone. This
is another good trick for mike-eaters.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?


"Fran Guidry" wrote in message
news:5315390.492.1334373325820.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbxy18...
Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their mouths
right
up against the microphones when they sing?


In at least some cases, because the engineer running the PA instructs them
to do so, and that same engineer EQs and gain stages things to require
that technique.


Well it's easier to cope with singers right on the mic in a live concert.
than it is when they sing 3 foot from the mic at a whisper, and expect the
sound guy to just turn it up. Apart from feedback you have to cope with
sound bleed from everything else on stage making it more difficult to get
the balance right.
Worse still is the ones who constantly move on and off the mic when they
shouldn't. A proper professional knows when to adjust the distance as
appropriate, and not simply rely on a compressor or sound guy to fix it for
them.

As for hygiene, I'm often amazed at how few singers bring their own mics. I
don't get too many guitarists expecting me to provide a guitar for them, but
a microphone of their own is a lot easier to carry. I do use anti-bacterial
wipes on the vocal mics in any case though. They're just as likly to catch
something from an audience member when signing CD's.

Trevor.




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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Jenn wrote:

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:


Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their
mouths right up against the microphones when they sing?


Insecurity, probably. I've seen many well-known singers do this
(Elton John, Bill Joel, et al).


Some of the time a sound guy can ask for it, not all singers are good at "3
inches from the mouth", but getting closer does awful things to the mouth
acoustics and ruins the vox sound. Try holding a fist in front of your mouth
while talking or singing and listen as you move it closer and notice the
changed feel in the throat when the resonances of the mouth cavity get
de-tuned.

Also: to determine the exact square foot to stand on on stage when singing:
move around singing, loud is not required - making the weeist bit of sound
is enough, and notice how it feels in the throat. Stand where it is easiest
to sing.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen




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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

In article ,
"Peter Larsen" wrote:

Jenn wrote:

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:


Apart from the hygiene aspects, why do so many singers have their
mouths right up against the microphones when they sing?


Insecurity, probably. I've seen many well-known singers do this
(Elton John, Bill Joel, et al).


Some of the time a sound guy can ask for it, not all singers are good at "3
inches from the mouth", but getting closer does awful things to the mouth
acoustics and ruins the vox sound. Try holding a fist in front of your mouth
while talking or singing and listen as you move it closer and notice the
changed feel in the throat when the resonances of the mouth cavity get
de-tuned.

Also: to determine the exact square foot to stand on on stage when singing:
move around singing, loud is not required - making the weeist bit of sound
is enough, and notice how it feels in the throat. Stand where it is easiest
to sing.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen


So true. Also true with many instruments.

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

On 4/13/2012 11:37 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Jenn wrote:

Insecurity, probably. I've seen many well-known singers do this (Elton
John, Bill Joel, et al).


You'll often see Elton John with a huge foam ball on the mike which
appears designed to keep him away from the actual microphone. This
is another good trick for mike-eaters.


BSW has a pop filter for RE20/RE27/PR40 that does a great job of keeping the
talent's lips off the grill.

http://www.bswusa.com/Pop-Filters-BS...POP-P1419.aspx

It would be great of the company would make a version of this one for the
SM57/SM58/Beta 87. It would look like crap on camera, but it could be useful in
non-video environments.

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mcp6453 wrote:

It would be great of the company would make a version of this one for
the SM57/SM58/Beta 87.


Shure's foam screen for the SM57 is as good as the mic, in fact: put on mic
and never remove unless you need to for whatever reason. There's also the
SM7 ...

Kind regards

Peter Larsen





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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

mcp6453 wrote:

On 4/13/2012 11:37 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Jenn wrote:

Insecurity, probably. I've seen many well-known singers do this
(Elton John, Bill Joel, et al).


You'll often see Elton John with a huge foam ball on the mike which
appears designed to keep him away from the actual microphone. This
is another good trick for mike-eaters.


BSW has a pop filter for RE20/RE27/PR40 that does a great job of
keeping the talent's lips off the grill.

http://www.bswusa.com/Pop-Filters-BS...POP-P1419.aspx


Neat indeed!

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

It would be great of the company would make a version of this one for
the SM57/SM58/Beta 87. It would look like crap on camera, but it
could be useful in non-video environments.



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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Jenn wrote:

Insecurity, probably. I've seen many well-known singers do this
(Elton John, Bill Joel, et al).


You'll often see Elton John with a huge foam ball on the mike which
appears designed to keep him away from the actual microphone. This
is another good trick for mike-eaters.
--scott


Rubbing grille in armpit (in view of vocalist) has similar effect.

geoff




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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Robin K. Banks wrote:

Is it me are are EV mics more pop sensitive than others? I thought "PL"
stood for "Pop-Sss! Lookout!" That being said, singers with good
technique love them because of the extended distance proximity lows I
suppose, and learn to work it for maximum effect. Ronnie Van Zant can be
seen using them for example when he wasn't using a 57.


Well, try an RE-55 some time! You couldn't pop it if you tried! Mind
you, there's absolutely zero proximity effect....

Anyways, some singers with good technique use the proximity effect to
fatten up the low end on their voice on certain passages so it does not
sound thin. Those with lousy mic chops do it because they saw a good
singer do it, but had no idea why I think.


I think for people to be able to do this, they have to be able to hear
exactly what they sound like. Sadly, very few monitoring systems are good
enough for singers to be able to get a sense of this.

Good monitoring also prevents popping....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Robin K. Banks wrote:
Is it me are are EV mics more pop sensitive than others? I thought "PL"
stood for "Pop-Sss! Lookout!" That being said, singers with good
technique love them because of the extended distance proximity lows I
suppose, and learn to work it for maximum effect. Ronnie Van Zant can be
seen using them for example when he wasn't using a 57.


Well, try an RE-55 some time! You couldn't pop it if you tried! Mind
you, there's absolutely zero proximity effect....

Anyways, some singers with good technique use the proximity effect to
fatten up the low end on their voice on certain passages so it does not
sound thin. Those with lousy mic chops do it because they saw a good
singer do it, but had no idea why I think.


I think for people to be able to do this, they have to be able to hear
exactly what they sound like. Sadly, very few monitoring systems are good
enough for singers to be able to get a sense of this.

Good monitoring also prevents popping....
--scott


Oh, man, I know THAT'S right. When I'm singing anything other than
rhythm bass, I'll do everything in my power to avoid the popping.
Sometimes I think it bothers me more than the engineer. *grin*

As far as the low end is concerned, I think I have the opposite problem.
My high range is much thinner than my low range. I really enjoy how my
low range sounds, in fact, but my upper end sounds thin and brassy to
me. I've used doubling, EQ, and phasing to try to fix it, but I'm now
somewhat resigned to the fact that it's just going to sound that way.

Not to put myself in his league, but if I recall correctly, John Lennon
hated the sound of his own voice. Others are much more kind when they
review my singing than I am. But it does affect my self-confidence when
singing in public.

---Jeff
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

geoff wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Jenn wrote:
Insecurity, probably. I've seen many well-known singers do this
(Elton John, Bill Joel, et al).

You'll often see Elton John with a huge foam ball on the mike which
appears designed to keep him away from the actual microphone. This
is another good trick for mike-eaters.
--scott


Rubbing grille in armpit (in view of vocalist) has similar effect.

geoff



Ummmmm, yeah. I think that'll do it.

*shudder*

---Jeff
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Jeff Henig wrote:

Crooners, yes. Rhythm bass singing in a contemporary a cappella ensemble is
a different animal entirely. Ridiculous EQs set to cut high end (I've seen
some use kick drum mics!), very percussive notes--some of which use the
"pop" for effect, and serious use of proximity effect to add to the "bass
guitar" sound.


Ahh! Beatboxing!
A very different thing... and a place where you don't want a natural
effect either, since the microphone becomes part of the instrument kind
of like with a closed kick drum....

I'd be in favor of that, absolutely.


That, of course, works for some styles of music much better than others.
But in those cases, yes, I'm in whole-hearted agreement with you.


I would just ONCE like to see a Broadway revival done without reinforcement,
like the original show was.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I would just ONCE like to see a Broadway revival done without reinforcement,
like the original show was.
--scott


Amen!

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com


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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

In article

,
Jeff Henig wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Jeff Henig wrote:

Crooners, yes. Rhythm bass singing in a contemporary a cappella ensemble is
a different animal entirely. Ridiculous EQs set to cut high end (I've seen
some use kick drum mics!), very percussive notes--some of which use the
"pop" for effect, and serious use of proximity effect to add to the "bass
guitar" sound.


Ahh! Beatboxing!
A very different thing... and a place where you don't want a natural
effect either, since the microphone becomes part of the instrument kind
of like with a closed kick drum....


YES, exactly. Well, almost. We have one in our group who actually does
vocal percussion (he swears it's different from beatboxing but for the life
of me, I don't know how), and I'm actually vocalizing the part of a bass
guitar mixed with both kick drum and true word-singing. EQ'ing our two
parts can be a bear if you're doing it for the first time.

I'd be in favor of that, absolutely.

That, of course, works for some styles of music much better than others.
But in those cases, yes, I'm in whole-hearted agreement with you.


I would just ONCE like to see a Broadway revival done without reinforcement,
like the original show was.
--scott


No kidding. I would really enjoy that!

Are they even doing opera anymore without reinforcement?


Oh yes. Most places.

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Jeff Henig writes:

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Jeff Henig wrote:

Crooners, yes. Rhythm bass singing in a contemporary a cappella ensemble is
a different animal entirely. Ridiculous EQs set to cut high end (I've seen
some use kick drum mics!), very percussive notes--some of which use the
"pop" for effect, and serious use of proximity effect to add to the "bass
guitar" sound.


Ahh! Beatboxing!
A very different thing... and a place where you don't want a natural
effect either, since the microphone becomes part of the instrument kind
of like with a closed kick drum....


YES, exactly. Well, almost. We have one in our group who actually does
vocal percussion (he swears it's different from beatboxing but for the life
of me, I don't know how), and I'm actually vocalizing the part of a bass
guitar mixed with both kick drum and true word-singing. EQ'ing our two
parts can be a bear if you're doing it for the first time.



Here's a little trick for beat-boxing that's cleaner than an obnoxious 'plosive into
the microphone. Possibly dangerous live, but certainly workable in the studio.

This case is for Protools:

1. Set up an oscillator on a new channel, tune it to, say, 50 hz (sine), -20 dB to
start.

2. Add a gate after the oscillator; set that gate to external keying using an
available bus.

3. Put a new send on the beat channel, using the same bus selected for the
external key input of the gate.

4. Along with the send level, adjust the thresholds and timings on the gate so that
you're getting a little burst of LF on the "kick drum" portion of the beat. Tune the
oscillator up a bit to get a little more audible kick (70hz, perhaps), but much
higher than 100 Hz and it'll sound odd. Much lower and most systems won't reproduce
it. You can fine-tune the hz for the best fit for a given beat sound. Careful you
don't put too much in the mix, otherwise, it'll sound like what it is, a gated burst
of LF tone.

You might need to compress or EQ-shape the key signal a little, but overall this
will give you a pretty rich LF thump (when you need it).

Have fun with it.

Frank
Mobile Audio

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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Jeff Henig writes:

Are they even doing opera anymore without reinforcement?


The last time I saw an opera--probably about ten years ago, I'm not sure--it
seemed that all the performers and the orchestra were working without any
electronic amplification at all.

At first it surprised me. But then I figured that it makes sense, since the
whole purpose of opera singing is to make the singer audible alongside an
orchestra without any artificial amplification. Unfortunately it also makes
opera singing unintelligible and very artificial in sound.
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"Jeff Henig" wrote in message
...
Rubbing grille in armpit (in view of vocalist) has similar effect.
geoff


Ummmmm, yeah. I think that'll do it....


To make sure they never hire you again? Almost certainly.

Trevor.




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понедељак, 16. април 2012. 08.44.37 UTC+2, Mxsmanic је написао/ла:
Jeff Henig writes:


Often, there is some kind of invisible reinforcement, mic arrays up the ceiling, or similar and inwall speakers on delay lines, but thats 'there for pourposes mentioned in Frank Stearns' post.
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On Apr 15, 11:10*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Sadly, very few monitoring systems are good
enough for singers to be able to get a sense of this.


I'm sure this contributes to mic-eating as well.

Speaking not as an engineer or as a "real singer" but only as an
untrained, not very good singer who has done background vocals in
small club gigs: if I can't hear myself well enough to tell if I'm on
pitch, I get closer to the mic.

I don't think I have *ever* had the feeling that I could tell what my
mic actually sounded like. In my context (amateur and semi-pro
bands), "monitoring system" includes not just the gear but also the
lack of time for soundcheck, lack of a dedicated monitor engineer,
lack of space onstage, and lack of decent acoustics for the music.

It's hard, without a lot of experience, to judge your distance from
the mic when you are simultaneously trying to harmonize, remember the
lyrics, and play your instrument. (And depending on the gig and your
role, you may need to care about how you look, too. I mostly wasn't in
that sort of band.) Mic distance is usually the last thing on my
mind, and if I can't tell what effect it has anyway, what can I do?

Finally: You may not be able to see very well. If you're touching the
mic, at least you know where it is, and at least if you're consistent
about it, the engineer can hopefully cope. Inside of 45 minutes we'll
be yanking our gear off the stage as quick as possible and he'll be on
to dealing with the next batch of doofuses.

If it's a lead singer who's not playing an instrument though, well
then, even in an amateur/semipro context, mic technique *is* the
instrument, or at least a large part of it.
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mcp6453 wrote:
BSW has a pop filter for RE20/RE27/PR40 that does a great job of keeping the
talent's lips off the grill.

http://www.bswusa.com/Pop-Filters-BS...POP-P1419.aspx

It would be great of the company would make a version of this one for the
SM57/SM58/Beta 87. It would look like crap on camera, but it could be useful in
non-video environments.


http://www.wind-tech.net/Large_Windscreens.php
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Jeff Henig wrote:

I would just ONCE like to see a Broadway revival done without reinforcement,
like the original show was.


No kidding. I would really enjoy that!

Are they even doing opera anymore without reinforcement?


Yes! Unfortunately that's about the only thing that is done without
reinforcement, though. But it's still a joy to just hear someone filling
a hall with their voice.

I heard Cab Calloway on stage once, with the power out. He was louder than
the band, and he was in his nineties too.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Mxsmanic Mxsmanic is offline
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Scott Dorsey writes:

Yes! Unfortunately that's about the only thing that is done without
reinforcement, though. But it's still a joy to just hear someone filling
a hall with their voice.


Is there something different between reinforcement and amplification?

I heard Cab Calloway on stage once, with the power out. He was louder than
the band, and he was in his nineties too.


Maybe he could no longer hear himself performing.


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[email protected] ckozicki@snet.net is offline
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

It IS a bad habit, and improper technique. And I see everyone doing it, not just musicians. Public speakers, politicians. Although I do encourage experimentation - your recorded voice will sound different at 2 inches vs 7 inches away from the screen - I learned in recording studio training that 3-5" is technically the best distance.

I would use 'spit screens' in the studio to keep them back but this might prove awkward-looking in concert. Another option is headsets - again, in studio - but might look too sci-fi on stage. And the freq response might not quite compare to a classic Neumann or esoteric mic from before WWII(!)

Perhaps, as you suggested, we have simply let training & proper technique fall by the wayside for the sake of rushing out another contractual obligation. lol!

-CC
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Mxsmanic wrote:
Scott Dorsey writes:

Yes! Unfortunately that's about the only thing that is done without
reinforcement, though. But it's still a joy to just hear someone filling
a hall with their voice.


Is there something different between reinforcement and amplification?


Philosophy, for the most part.

I heard Cab Calloway on stage once, with the power out. He was louder than
the band, and he was in his nineties too.


Maybe he could no longer hear himself performing.


No, he was perfect.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 11:16:17 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
Scott Dorsey writes:

Yes! Unfortunately that's about the only thing that is done without
reinforcement, though. But it's still a joy to just hear someone filling
a hall with their voice.


Is there something different between reinforcement and amplification?


Philosophy, for the most part.

I heard Cab Calloway on stage once, with the power out. He was louder than
the band, and he was in his nineties too.


Maybe he could no longer hear himself performing.


No, he was perfect.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

_______

I usually combat "microphone lips" by either #1. Turning them up just until a small FB squeal emerges, and they pull back(!) or #2. I fully CCW the LF knob on their channel in comb. with their High-pass button(if present).

Works like charm!

-CC

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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Luxey wrote:

Often, there is some kind of invisible reinforcement, mic arrays up the cei=
ling, or similar and inwall speakers on delay lines, but thats 'there for p=
ourposes mentioned in Frank Stearns' post.


If you _ever_ notice sound reinforcement with acoustic music, something is
wrong.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Why do singers put their mouths against microphones?

Scott Dorsey writes:

No, he was perfect.


Ninety years old with perfect hearing? He was lucky, then, especially for a
musician.
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