[Jason[_14_]]

Here's a link to a long NASA presentation about RoHS-related issues.
Toyota owners: see inside.

http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/referen...011-kostic-Pb-
free.pdf

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 3/30/2012 6:02 PM, Jason wrote:
Here's a link to a long NASA presentation about RoHS-related issues.
Toyota owners: see inside.

http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/referen...ic-Pb-free.pdf

An equipment manufacturer who many people here know told me the same thing, even
including his company's equipment.

[Scott Dorsey]

mcp6453 wrote:
On 3/30/2012 6:02 PM, Jason wrote:
Here's a link to a long NASA presentation about RoHS-related issues.
Toyota owners: see inside.

http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/referen...ic-Pb-free.pdf

An equipment manufacturer who many people here know told me the same thing, even
including his company's equipment.

This paper only briefly touches on the real problem for audio folks:
lead-free joints are brittle and fail easily, especially under vibration.
Vibration, like you might encounter at a rock concert.

The good news is that some US-made equipment is still lead-soldered, and
some European microphone manufacturers are still using lead under the grounds
that their products are telecommunications devices and therefore exempt under
the RoHS laws. Condenser mikes, which have high voltages and close spacing,
have very severe issues with tin whiskers. For most other equipment the
brittleness issues are dominant.

The RoHS laws are intended only to apply to disposable consumer equipment.
There are specific exceptions for military and telecom products. The trouble
is that high quality audio gear is small production work, often made in larger
plants that do mass production and which are geared up for lead-free work.

Contamination in such facilities becomes a big issue; I have a customer who
is having some electronics made abroad in a facility that specifically was
requested to use leaded solder, but the boards appear to have a mix of
leaded and lead-free solders on them, presumably because someone didn't clean
the wave soldering machine out before changing to leaded. Long term effects
of this weird alloy? Who knows?

Oh, well, at least it will keep the board rework guys in business....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[William Sommerwerck]

The RoHS laws are intended only to apply to disposable
consumer equipment.

If so, then can't a manufacturer of high-quality products argue "Our stuff
is intended to last, and built accordingly"?

[Trevor]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
The problem is that today there are very few actual manufacturers who are
set up to use proper solder, and so vendors who rely on contract
manufacturing
these days (which sadly is most of them)

And those that rely on parts manufacturers, which is even more of them.

are often up the creek.

Which the NASA paper explains, even NASA and nuclear power plants!

Trevor.

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
The RoHS laws are intended only to apply to disposable
consumer equipment.

If so, then can't a manufacturer of high-quality products argue "Our stuff
is intended to last, and built accordingly"?

No, because unfortunately even though it's _intended_ to apply only to
diposable consumer equipment, it winds up applying to all kinds of things.

Howevever, there are enough loopholes that manufacturers of high-quality
products can slip things through, and many do.

The problem is that today there are very few actual manufacturers who are
set up to use proper solder, and so vendors who rely on contract manufacturing
these days (which sadly is most of them) are often up the creek.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[MarkK]

That pdf shows out of a billion recycled electronic circuits annually,
the total recovered lead is less than 100 car batteries ( 0.05% of the
total annual battery recycle.) Meanwhile, how many CFL's are busted
releasing the mercury? It's all bad, and even though my generation was
brought up 40 years ago to address all these problems living from a
couple world wars, we didn't have the full picture.

Then there is Fukushima over-riding all that. We were taught that this
was the unthinkable accident, yet it has happened two times and nearly a
third in Omaha last summer. Like NASA says about the RoHS initiative,
it's a ready fire aim mentality instead of environmental triage... Get
the worst first. They're wasting time doing what they can do for PR
points instead of taking on the obvious crucial heavy lifting it seems.



The Rohs regulations are a perfect example of bureaucrat, European in this
case, meddling having unintended consequences.

Lead in solder has never been a hazard and is a tiny percentage of the total
lead used.

The Rohs regulations have caused all electronics manufactures to comply
adding another set of letters to part numbers. Not a day goes by that I
don't deal with some part number confusion about Rohs vs non Rohs part
numbers. I now work on military gear and we don't need to comply, but most
of the parts we can buy are available ONLY as Rohs so we are stuck with a
mish mash for soldering. And the Rohs solder is more difficult to do
correctly. It's not just the tin whiskers, its the bad solder joints.

I predict that more people are going to die due to electronics failures then
will be saved from lead poisoning.

This is an example of the psychology of bureaucrats making themselves "feel
effective" by forcing their regulations on everyone. Oh, but we're doing
it for the children...

Mark

[Frank Stearns]

"MarkK" writes:

- snips

I predict that more people are going to die due to electronics failures then
will be saved from lead poisoning.

This is an example of the psychology of bureaucrats making themselves "feel
effective" by forcing their regulations on everyone. Oh, but we're doing
it for the children...

+1.

If anyone is interested in a little more of the psychology of all this, pick up "ECO
FADES - How the Rise of Trendy Enviromentalism is Harming the Environment" by Todd
Myers, published by the Washington Policy Center in Seattle, WA.

Excellent, informative read. Highly recommended.

Frank
Mobile (with as little RoHS as possible) Audio
You'll pry my tin/*LEAD*/silver solder from my cold, dead hands...
--

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

On Sun 2012-Apr-01 19:17, Frank Stearns writes:
I predict that more people are going to die due to electronics failures then
will be saved from lead poisoning.

This is an example of the psychology of bureaucrats making themselves "feel
effective" by forcing their regulations on everyone. Oh, but we're doing
it for the children...

+1.

+1 again.

As soon as they say "it's for the children I already engage
my extreme bull**** detector which goes right over to the
peg.

If anyone is interested in a little more of the psychology of all
this, pick up "ECO
FADES - How the Rise of Trendy Enviromentalism is Harming the
Environment" by Todd
Myers, published by the Washington Policy Center in Seattle, WA.

I've heard of that one. Am hoping it appears in braille.


Regards,
Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[Bill[_20_]]

In message ,
Jason writes
Here's a link to a long NASA presentation about RoHS-related issues.
Toyota owners: see inside.

http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/referen...011-kostic-Pb-
free.pdf

Just for interest, are these the same type of whiskers that I remember
from the 1960's?
We had a "standard fault" on tape machines and studio equipment then
where we replaced small metal encased relays. These were said to grow
whiskers inside the casing.
They were what we then thought of as miniature relays, were not plug in
units and, from what I remember, were often in the most awkward places
to unsolder and replace.
The machines will have been TR90's, Leevers Rich, and perhaps some
BTR2's.
--
Bill

[Mxsmanic]

Robin K. Banks writes:

That pdf shows out of a billion recycled electronic circuits annually,
the total recovered lead is less than 100 car batteries ( 0.05% of the
total annual battery recycle.) Meanwhile, how many CFL's are busted
releasing the mercury? It's all bad, and even though my generation was
brought up 40 years ago to address all these problems living from a
couple world wars, we didn't have the full picture.

The amount of mercury in a CFL is milligrams, and won't generally harm anyone.
It does surprise me that CFLs are being touted as replacements (mandatory
replacements, in the EU) for incandescent lamps, based on power consumption,
but apparently ignoring mercury content and the cost of manufacture.

Environmentalists are a strange breed.

Then there is Fukushima over-riding all that. We were taught that this
was the unthinkable accident, yet it has happened two times and nearly a
third in Omaha last summer.

Nobody has died. It's essentially media hype and hysteria on the part of
people who know nothing about nuclear power (or who have an economic interest
in bashing nuclear power). Nineteen thousand were killed by the tsunami.

The fact remains that nuclear power is the only way to meet electrical power
needs over the short term, and possibly over the longer term. The alternatives
are fossil fuels, and they are much, much worse for the environment.

Like NASA says about the RoHS initiative,
it's a ready fire aim mentality instead of environmental triage... Get
the worst first. They're wasting time doing what they can do for PR
points instead of taking on the obvious crucial heavy lifting it seems.

Whatever the reason, things are going to fall apart as a result.

[John Williamson]

Mxsmanic wrote:
Robin K. Banks writes:

That pdf shows out of a billion recycled electronic circuits annually,
the total recovered lead is less than 100 car batteries ( 0.05% of the
total annual battery recycle.) Meanwhile, how many CFL's are busted
releasing the mercury? It's all bad, and even though my generation was
brought up 40 years ago to address all these problems living from a
couple world wars, we didn't have the full picture.

The amount of mercury in a CFL is milligrams, and won't generally harm anyone.
It does surprise me that CFLs are being touted as replacements (mandatory
replacements, in the EU) for incandescent lamps, based on power consumption,
but apparently ignoring mercury content and the cost of manufacture.

Environmentalists are a strange breed.

In the case of CFLs, it's pretty much a toss up between the extra
pollution from making and disposing of them,and the pollution caused by
burning coal to make the extra energy used by a filament bulb over its
lifetime.

But you're right, some of the envisonmentalists are a bit strange, but
unfortunately, some of the stranger ones are lobbying the governments to
strogly push their point of view.

Then there is Fukushima over-riding all that. We were taught that this
was the unthinkable accident, yet it has happened two times and nearly a
third in Omaha last summer.

Nobody has died. It's essentially media hype and hysteria on the part of
people who know nothing about nuclear power (or who have an economic interest
in bashing nuclear power). Nineteen thousand were killed by the tsunami.

At least two casualties, but from steam burns when they were working in
the reactor enclosure. What's scaring the Japanese is the unknown
quantities of environmental damage that may result from the radiation
release, and the way that after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they view *all*
nuclear stuff as bad. Maybe if the tables had been turned and the
Japanese had nuked New York and Washington, the American publiuc would
feel the same way.

Like NASA says about the RoHS initiative,
it's a ready fire aim mentality instead of environmental triage... Get
the worst first. They're wasting time doing what they can do for PR
points instead of taking on the obvious crucial heavy lifting it seems.

Whatever the reason, things are going to fall apart as a result.

The answer is that we all need to use less, starting a decade or three
ago. Keep our buildings closer to ambient temperature, drive smaller
cars, and use public transport and bicycles wherever possible. Long
term, we need to re-arrange society so things and people don't need to
move around so much. Don't replace your home electronics, computer and
cellphone every year or two, but keep them going as long as possible,
which means redesigning them to be repairable.

As for RoHS removing lead from solder, it's not so much that the lead
kills people, it's the long term effect of debilitation in physical and
mental capacity that's the problem, and it was found that lead from
electonic equipment going into landfill was reaching water sources, and
causing noticeable pollution of drinking water with biologically
available lead compounds. Lead in petrol was even worse, and it was
found that average academic performance was affected adversely by
children living closer to main roads. An effect which is now greatly
reduced.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Mike Rivers]

On 4/1/2012 6:09 PM, MarkK wrote:

Lead in solder has never been a hazard and is a tiny percentage of the total
lead used.

Are you sure about that? "Never" is a long time, and
includes "now." Not that I'm defending RoHS rules, but with
all of the disposable electronics and electrical equipment
that's come along in the past 20 years, there's a lot more
lead going into landfills and even going into storm sewers
when people leave their old TV sets and computers out on the
curb. There may actually be a problem, or an impending problem.

I predict that more people are going to die due to electronics failures then
will be saved from lead poisoning.

Right. You can get hit by a bus when crossing a street while
texting.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[William Sommerwerck]

If anyone is interested in a little more of the psychology of all this,
pick up "ECO FADES - How the Rise of Trendy Enviromentalism
is Harming the Environment" by Todd Myers, published by the
Washington Policy Center in Seattle, WA.

The Washington Policy Center is a right-wing organization that supports
free-market solutions to problems. Oddly, I do, too -- except that I don't
believe the free market always has a real, effective solution to problems.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

The fact remains that nuclear power is the only way to meet
electrical power needs over the short term, and possibly over
the longer term. The alternatives are fossil fuels, and they are
much, much worse for the environment.

Oh, let's see. There's wind power. There's solar power. Maybe tide and
geothermal. There are many long-term solutions other than nuclear.

There's no law that says we have to switch to one type of power. A mix can
provide what we need, night and day.

[Neil Gould]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
If anyone is interested in a little more of the psychology of all
this, pick up "ECO FADES - How the Rise of Trendy Enviromentalism
is Harming the Environment" by Todd Myers, published by the
Washington Policy Center in Seattle, WA.

The Washington Policy Center is a right-wing organization that
supports free-market solutions to problems. Oddly, I do, too --
except that I don't believe the free market always has a real,
effective solution to problems.

I would like someone to point out where a free market has ever existed in
the history of humans, because I can't find a single example. If it doesn't
exist, decisions based on the fantasy of it are no better than any other
scam or hoax.

--
best regards,

Neil

[Scott Dorsey]

Bill wrote:

Just for interest, are these the same type of whiskers that I remember
from the 1960's?
We had a "standard fault" on tape machines and studio equipment then
where we replaced small metal encased relays. These were said to grow
whiskers inside the casing.

Same problem. You have tin materials or tin plating, you have tight spacing
and high voltages, and you have a problem.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[William Sommerwerck]

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

If anyone is interested in a little more of the psychology of
all this, pick up "ECO FADES -- How the Rise of Trendy
Enviromentalism is Harming the Environment" by Todd
Myers, published by the Washington Policy Center in
Seattle, WA.

The Washington Policy Center is a right-wing organization that
supports free-market solutions to problems. Oddly, I do, too --
except that I don't believe the free market always has a real,
effective solution to problems.

I would like someone to point out where a free market has ever
existed in the history of humans, because I can't find a single
example. If it doesn't exist, decisions based on the fantasy of it
re no better than any other scam or hoax.

I would say we have a basically free market in this country. It works fairly
well when greed doesn't run rampant, and there are no attempts to manipulate
it. Historically, many economic collapses (such as the most-recent) were the
result of attempts to manipulate the market, or corner a valuable commodity.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Jeff Henig" wrote in message
...

I also agree with William: the marketplace is generally going
to provide a solution if and when one is needed. This isn't
ALWAYS true, but it is most of the time.

The problem is that the marketplace solution isn't always in the best
interests of consumers. Our health-care system is an example of a "solution"
that doesn't meet the needs of a large part of the population.

It's odd that people complain that a government-regulated system would have
bureaucrats determining who lives and who dies, when we already have a
system in which insurance companies make the same decision. (This is an
over-simplification of the situation, of course.)

[hank alrich]

Neil Gould wrote:

William Sommerwerck wrote:
If anyone is interested in a little more of the psychology of all
this, pick up "ECO FADES - How the Rise of Trendy Enviromentalism
is Harming the Environment" by Todd Myers, published by the
Washington Policy Center in Seattle, WA.

The Washington Policy Center is a right-wing organization that
supports free-market solutions to problems. Oddly, I do, too --
except that I don't believe the free market always has a real,
effective solution to problems.

I would like someone to point out where a free market has ever existed in
the history of humans, because I can't find a single example. If it doesn't
exist, decisions based on the fantasy of it are no better than any other
scam or hoax.

Bingo. When policies run on bull**** system exhaust is malodorous.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

If anyone is interested in a little more of the psychology of
all this, pick up "ECO FADES -- How the Rise of Trendy
Enviromentalism is Harming the Environment" by Todd
Myers, published by the Washington Policy Center in
Seattle, WA.

The Washington Policy Center is a right-wing organization that
supports free-market solutions to problems. Oddly, I do, too --
except that I don't believe the free market always has a real,
effective solution to problems.

I would like someone to point out where a free market has ever
existed in the history of humans, because I can't find a single
example. If it doesn't exist, decisions based on the fantasy of it
re no better than any other scam or hoax.

I would say we have a basically free market in this country. It works fairly
well when greed doesn't run rampant, and there are no attempts to manipulate
it. Historically, many economic collapses (such as the most-recent) were the
result of attempts to manipulate the market, or corner a valuable commodity.

I'd say you're running on fantasy. "Free markets" give away vast areas
of "public" land for the building of railroads, slaves provide
uncompensated labor that allows the nation to accrue wealth, General
Motors buys and then eliminates public transportation in favor of their
own products, we save the corrupt bankers from their well-deserved
free-market fate. For starters.

Neil is spot-on here. Few have the eyes to see it and the balls to say
it.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

The fact remains that nuclear power is the only way to meet
electrical power needs over the short term, and possibly over
the longer term. The alternatives are fossil fuels, and they are
much, much worse for the environment.

Oh, let's see. There's wind power. There's solar power. Maybe tide and
geothermal. There are many long-term solutions other than nuclear.

There's no law that says we have to switch to one type of power. A mix can
provide what we need, night and day.

Not at current levels of consumption. The planet receives a certain
amount of energy from the sun. That is what we have to work with, unless
we find a way around accepted laws of thermodynamics.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[William Sommerwerck]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

The fact remains that nuclear power is the only way to meet
electrical power needs over the short term, and possibly over
the longer term. The alternatives are fossil fuels, and they are
much, much worse for the environment.

Oh, let's see. There's wind power. There's solar power. Maybe tide
and geothermal. There are many long-term solutions other than
nuclear.

There's no law that says we have to switch to one type of power.
A mix can provide what we need, night and day.

Not at current levels of consumption. The planet receives a certain
amount of energy from the sun. That is what we have to work with,
unless we find a way around accepted laws of thermodynamics.

You've missed the point.

The widespread use of "alternative" energy would reduce the need for nuclear
and fossil-fuel plants. It's unlikely they'd ever completely disappear --
but we could have a lot fewer of them.

[Neil Gould]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Neil Gould" wrote
I would like someone to point out where a free market has ever
existed in the history of humans, because I can't find a single
example. If it doesn't exist, decisions based on the fantasy of it
re no better than any other scam or hoax.

I would say we have a basically free market in this country.

Then, given the amount of regulation, manipulation, federal, state and local
restrictions as to who can participate in the market, all driven by special
interest lobbying, I don't have a clue what your notion of a free market
might be.

--
Neil Gould

[William Sommerwerck]

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Neil Gould" wrote

I would like someone to point out where a free market has ever
existed in the history of humans, because I can't find a single
example. If it doesn't exist, decisions based on the fantasy of it
re no better than any other scam or hoax.

I would say we have a basically free market in this country.

Then, given the amount of regulation, manipulation, federal, state
and local restrictions as to who can participate in the market, all
driven by special interest lobbying, I don't have a clue what your
notion of a free market might be.

I'd say that a "free" economy is one that isn't command-driven. Communist
economies are classic examples of systems that cannot produce what people
need, let alone want.

[hank alrich]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

The fact remains that nuclear power is the only way to meet
electrical power needs over the short term, and possibly over
the longer term. The alternatives are fossil fuels, and they are
much, much worse for the environment.

Oh, let's see. There's wind power. There's solar power. Maybe tide
and geothermal. There are many long-term solutions other than
nuclear.

There's no law that says we have to switch to one type of power.
A mix can provide what we need, night and day.

Not at current levels of consumption. The planet receives a certain
amount of energy from the sun. That is what we have to work with,
unless we find a way around accepted laws of thermodynamics.

You've missed the point.

The widespread use of "alternative" energy would reduce the need for nuclear
and fossil-fuel plants. It's unlikely they'd ever completely disappear --
but we could have a lot fewer of them.

The real point is that regardless of what we think we'll do about energy
we must either realize the factual limits of the energy avaialble to us
or go extinct.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[William Sommerwerck]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

The widespread use of "alternative" energy would reduce the
need for nuclear and fossil-fuel plants. It's unlikely they'd ever
completely disappear -- but we could have a lot fewer of them.

The real point is that regardless of what we think we'll do about
energy we must either realize the factual limits of the energy
avaialble to us or go extinct.

I don't think we're even close to a limit on energy. But there are far too
many humans on this planet, and we use our physical resources with little
regard to their eventually exhaustion.

[Frank Stearns]

"William Sommerwerck" writes:

"Jeff Henig" wrote in message
...

I also agree with William: the marketplace is generally going
to provide a solution if and when one is needed. This isn't
ALWAYS true, but it is most of the time.

The problem is that the marketplace solution isn't always in the best
interests of consumers. Our health-care system is an example of a "solution"
that doesn't meet the needs of a large part of the population.

It's odd that people complain that a government-regulated system would have
bureaucrats determining who lives and who dies, when we already have a
system in which insurance companies make the same decision. (This is an
over-simplification of the situation, of course.)

Yes, it is an oversimplification, and therein lies the trouble. Devil in the
details, as it were.

But I'll toss in a generalizaiton as well. What seems to have happened on many
fronts is a result of dismal basic education, coupled with a government seeking
favor (er, power, actually) by actively doing many, many different things, when
their role in a lot of these fields should be one of market policeman -- but do let
the market function.

By dismal education I mean the basic arithmetic skills to follow arguments for or
against some local or national effort, and not just what can be seen on the first
layer, but the hidden or longer-reaching aspects as well. This didn't happen with
USA health care -- even then Speaker Nancy said "we'll have to pass the bill to know
what's in it."

What? Come again?

Banks, as another example, could not get away with all they've gotten away with if
consumers knew how the shop for a new account. Yet some in society seem to want the
government to -- in effect -- shop for your checking account provider. Really? Are
some in society that lazy or stupid? I doubt that; but I can understand how even
something so basic can feel overwhelming if some of the most basic tools have been
removed from your education.

Am now wagging finger at self for an OT, mildly political, post.

Frank
Mobile Audio

--

[Frank Stearns]

"William Sommerwerck" writes:

If anyone is interested in a little more of the psychology of all this,
pick up "ECO FADES - How the Rise of Trendy Enviromentalism
is Harming the Environment" by Todd Myers, published by the
Washington Policy Center in Seattle, WA.

The Washington Policy Center is a right-wing organization that supports
free-market solutions to problems. Oddly, I do, too -- except that I don't
believe the free market always has a real, effective solution to problems.


The association with WPC doesn't make the book any less true or useful, and if the
publisher is a flag to you, simply do your own fact review or review the logic of
the conclusions.

I first found interest in this work because Mr. Myers had documented the dismal
failure of many new Washington State public buildings (schools, mostly) to save
energy as was advertised.

Beyond the significantly higher capital costs for the "green" features, it was even
worse that these new "wonder buildings" were *using much more energy* than
conventional buildings. Many were sucking up 25% more energy and beyond, when they
were promising better than 25% energy savings.

While the reasons are still under investigation, it was obvious to me a what the
problem was after doing a live recording in December of the local symphony's brass
ensemble. The show was in the performaning arts center of a new "green" high school.

The "green policy" was to shut down the HVAC completely when the building was not
occupied. Sounds good on paper, and even works to a degree (no pun) in your own
home. But a large concrete and steel structure has thermal mass and thermal inertia,
factors which must be considered.

Let it cool or heat up too much and it requires a huge amount of energy to bring it
back, way more than if you'd kept the structure in a narrower range, given the time
and mass factors involved.

You need to know those various factors and program the HVAC accordingly, not make
some broad, knee-jerk, "turn it off to save the planet!" pronouncement.

Worse still (from a recording perspective), these wild temp swings were killing the
new 7' Yamaha grand piano they'd bought. 20-30 degree swings over the weekend were
not uncommon, I was told by their disgusted theater tech. The piano was horribly out
of tune. No surprise there. Irritating to those renting this house for $900/day.
They might spend their own money for a tuner, just to have the piano go out in again
because either the temp swung (again), or the peg box had been compromised by
too many cycles of extreme temperature swings.

What Myers points out (very a-politically) is that we have many fertile grounds for
Eco Fads, created in large part by emotions replacing simple, logical analysis. And
in many instances, the fad deflects resources and attention away from what might be
a genuine environmental problem.

But participating in a "fad" makes many people feel good, politicians able to
proclaim they've "done something," and slimy, behind-the-scenes, crony capitalists
rummage through our wallets yet again, often using the hands of government to do
the rummaging.

Frank
Mobile Audio
--

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

John Williamson wrote:

[...]
As for RoHS removing lead from solder, it's not so much that the lead
kills people, it's the long term effect of debilitation in physical and
mental capacity that's the problem,...

I wouldn't disagree with that.


... and it was found that lead from
electonic equipment going into landfill was reaching water sources, and
causing noticeable pollution of drinking water with biologically
available lead compounds.

I have yet to see any proof of that. There are lots of vehement
assertions, but never any proof. Most of the evidence I have seen
suggests the opposite: that lead does not leach out of landfill into
drinking water.


Lead in petrol was even worse, and it was
found that average academic performance was affected adversely by
children living closer to main roads. An effect which is now greatly
reduced.

Once again, if there were any data to suppport that assertion I would
have expected the environmentalists to be waving it in our faces. I
haven't seen any evidence that the acedemic performance of children has
increased since lead was removed from petrol.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Neil Gould]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Neil Gould" wrote

I would like someone to point out where a free market has ever
existed in the history of humans, because I can't find a single
example. If it doesn't exist, decisions based on the fantasy of it
re no better than any other scam or hoax.

I would say we have a basically free market in this country.

Then, given the amount of regulation, manipulation, federal, state
and local restrictions as to who can participate in the market, all
driven by special interest lobbying, I don't have a clue what your
notion of a free market might be.

I'd say that a "free" economy is one that isn't command-driven.
Communist economies are classic examples of systems that cannot
produce what people need, let alone want.

Command driven? I don't see how your notion explains why China is cleaning
our clock in the Western World, or why China has been the top economic power
for 9 out of the last 10 centuries.

--
best regards,

Neil

[William Sommerwerck]

thoughtful, useful response snipped

Perhaps the major problem with attempts to be "green" is that people
overlook the fact that we have too many material possessions, and we waste
too much energy and too many resources. Recycling paper and aluminum is not
going to solve the more-basic problem of Western (and increasingly Eastern)
society's extravagance.

[William Sommerwerck]

Lead in petrol was even worse, and it was found that average
academic performance was affected adversely by children living
closer to main roads. An effect which is now greatly reduced.

Once again, if there were any data to suppport that assertion I
would have expected the environmentalists to be waving it in our
faces. I haven't seen any evidence that the academic performance
of children has increased since lead was removed from petrol.

Whether it has or hasn't, there has supposedly been a significant reduction
in the amount of lead in people's blood.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

I'd say that a "free" economy is one that isn't command-driven.
Communist economies are classic examples of systems that cannot
produce what people need, let alone want.

Command driven? I don't see how your notion explains why China
is cleaning our clock in the Western World, or why China has been the
top economic power for 9 out of the last 10 centuries.

China is a "Communist" country only in that the government is run by
Communists. It has become largely a market economy.

As for its having been "the top economic power for 9 out of the last 10
centuries"... By what standard of judgment or measurement?

[Mike Rivers]

On 4/2/2012 12:17 PM, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

John wrote:
As for RoHS removing lead from solder, it's not so much that the lead
kills people, it's the long term effect of debilitation in physical and
mental capacity that's the problem,...
... and it was found that lead from
electonic equipment going into landfill was reaching water sources, and
causing noticeable pollution of drinking water with biologically
available lead compounds.

I have yet to see any proof of that. There are lots of vehement
assertions, but never any proof. Most of the evidence I have seen
suggests the opposite: that lead does not leach out of landfill into
drinking water.

It sure seems that there are a lot more stupid people
nowadays.

But I'll admit that it's really hard to conduct a good
experiment to prove that lead is causing it (or any other
physical or mental debilitation.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

Lead in petrol was even worse, and it was found that average
academic performance was affected adversely by children living
closer to main roads. An effect which is now greatly reduced.

Once again, if there were any data to suppport that assertion I
would have expected the environmentalists to be waving it in our
faces. I haven't seen any evidence that the academic performance
of children has increased since lead was removed from petrol.

Whether it has or hasn't, there has supposedly been a significant reduction
in the amount of lead in people's blood.

I wouldn't doubt it - but we were told that lead was causing a reduction
in academic performance, so I would have expected it would have been
measured and the results of any improvement published.

This is what is wrong with 'Environmentalism' as it is being practiced:
we are made to go to immense trouble to avoid a problem or make an
improvement; but when that problem is investigated there is often no
factual evidence for its existence. When we have spent vast amounts of
money and gone to immense inconvenience to achieve the promised
improvement, we find that nobody has even bothered to find out if it
took place (or they may have and - finding it did not take place - kept
quiet about it).

I am sorry to bring religion into the discussion once again, but
Environmentalism and 'Health & Safety' , as currently practiced, have
far more in common with religion than they do with science. I have no
wish to restrict those who want to believe in these 'Isms', but I can
see no reason why their rituals should be inflicted on me by law.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Neil Gould]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

I'd say that a "free" economy is one that isn't command-driven.
Communist economies are classic examples of systems that cannot
produce what people need, let alone want.

Command driven? I don't see how your notion explains why China
is cleaning our clock in the Western World, or why China has been the
top economic power for 9 out of the last 10 centuries.

China is a "Communist" country only in that the government is run by
Communists. It has become largely a market economy.

??!!???

If you arbitrarily exclude those examples that counter your argument, you'll
always be right.

As for its having been "the top economic power for 9 out of the last
10 centuries"... By what standard of judgment or measurement?

Typically, GDP.

--
best regards,

Neil

[John Williamson]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 4/2/2012 12:17 PM, Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

John wrote:
As for RoHS removing lead from solder, it's not so much that the lead
kills people, it's the long term effect of debilitation in physical and
mental capacity that's the problem,...
... and it was found that lead from
electonic equipment going into landfill was reaching water sources, and
causing noticeable pollution of drinking water with biologically
available lead compounds.

I have yet to see any proof of that. There are lots of vehement
assertions, but never any proof. Most of the evidence I have seen
suggests the opposite: that lead does not leach out of landfill into
drinking water.

It sure seems that there are a lot more stupid people nowadays.

Would that be in comparison with the wisdom gained as you age, or as an
absolute? :-)

But I'll admit that it's really hard to conduct a good experiment to
prove that lead is causing it (or any other physical or mental
debilitation.


In the UK, there were a couple of papers published and quoted in the
popular scientific press back in the 70s? or 80s? quoting a statistical
relationship between lead in the bloodstream and academic performance.
They never made the mainstream media, as far as I remember. It was
certainly one of the factors mentioned here in support of removing lead
from petrol.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[William Sommerwerck]

China is a "Communist" country only in that the government is
run by Communists. It has become largely a market economy.

??!!???

Is that not true?

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Neil Gould wrote:
William Sommerwerck wrote:
If anyone is interested in a little more of the psychology of all
this, pick up "ECO FADES - How the Rise of Trendy Enviromentalism
is Harming the Environment" by Todd Myers, published by the
Washington Policy Center in Seattle, WA.

The Washington Policy Center is a right-wing organization that
supports free-market solutions to problems. Oddly, I do, too --
except that I don't believe the free market always has a real,
effective solution to problems.

I would like someone to point out where a free market has ever existed in
the history of humans, because I can't find a single example. If it doesn't
exist, decisions based on the fantasy of it are no better than any other
scam or hoax.



Pretty much. It is a matter of degree.

Free markets are like infinity - they're both useful for thinking about
limits...

--
Les Cargill