Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller
hourly rate? In this economy I¹m considering doing this. Are there
contracts to sign? Lawyers to higher? What usually happens here?

Thanks a bunch, -Mick

--
Lose the "antispam_" from my email address to reply

"Mick F. Cantarella" wrote in message
...
Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller
hourly rate? In this economy I¹m considering doing this. Are there
contracts to sign? Lawyers to higher? What usually happens here?


This is way more trouble than it's worth and can lead to bad feelings and
bad word of mouth for your studio if things don't go right. I would avoid
doing that at all costs!!!

The reasoning being that most bands that are willing to give up some points
and those that are pretty much broke and don't have any kind of record
contract at all. If they had a record contract with a decent company, they
would have a recording budget and their own points are pretty small to begin
with so they wouldn't be able to afford to give a few to a studio,
especially if they have a producer who is also taking some of their points.

Even if you decide to go ahead with this with a band that's almost broke and
has no record label, you all have to spend time and money to get a proper
contract drawn up and reviewed. If you don't, you are just asking for more
trouble and hard feelings. Then, there is the issue of accounting and
auditing.... do you really trust a bunch of musicians to keep track of how
many CDs they sold at shows and local stores and on the internet? If you
try to question their accounting or ask to see their records, then you start
to get into an adversarial situation which can end up hurting your studio
reputation in the long run.

Finally, just working out the numbers should be enough to convince you
that's it not worth it. Figure out how many points they would be willing to
give you and then figure out how many CDs they would have to sell to make
back the money you would have got from the studio time in the first place if
you didn't do a discounted spec deal. Chances are that number is going to
be in the thousands at least! I couldn't tell you a percentage, but the
majority of bands with no money that somehow scrap together and make a CD
and then have 1000 of them manufactured can never even sell that first 1000
and end up giving most of them away to friends and family and anyone else
who will take them (or they end up in a closet forever).

If you're still not convinced, here's some personal (long and detailed)
experience for you. I had a couple of clients come in who had started their
own little rap label. There was a guy who was the producer who was very
good at doing the music and working with the rap artists, and then there was
a woman who was going to handle the street promotion and such. They had 4 o
5 rappers already signed to their little label and had been working with
them for a while and had all the beats/music ready. They first hired me and
my small production studio to record for them, which I did at my normal
hourly rate for a while. It wasn't too long before they ran out of money,
so they just put on a 2 song EP CD (with a few alternate mixes) of their
strongest material. A local radio station latched onto it and played it a
few times, and they started generating a buzz. The radio DJ even hooked
them up with a new startup indy label founded by a fairly big time rapper/DJ
from a while back, and they actually received some offers to a small record
contract just for that single. Even though the bigger guys kept calling and
trying to negotiate something, the local guys turned them down thinking they
could do better (probably their first mistake... should have got their foot
in the door when they had the chance, but I'm getting ahead).

Anyway, these guys were pretty professional and serious... moreso than any
other artists I had worked with up to that time. They had a business plan
and a lot of great ideas, and the music and rappers were all actually very
good! Unfortunately, they had run out of cash. I was pretty new to running
my own studio at the time (although I had worked for several years at a
major recording studio in the area), and I really liked these guys and their
music! Even though I was advised against it, I decided to do a spec deal
with these guys and give them studio time for free to finish up the full CD.
That was probably my first mistake. The second mistake was not quantifying
how much time that would involve. I left it open ended as far as studio
time and gave myself a fairly big chunk of the sales. They ended up taking
almost a year to finish up the CD and finally get it out (since they were
getting time for free they took way too much time working on everything,
plus we could only work a day or two every week since I had to fit them in
around paying clients). By the time the CD was released, the buzz from the
single had faded, and they had to start pretty much all over again. But,
they still managed to generate some more buzz, and they even performed live
on the Jenny Jones show (got flown out first class from Chicago and put up
in nice accomodations, all for free), and also performed at one of the big
summer festivals put on by the local radio station and featuring many major
label rap and hip hop artists. Still, they had no distribution and were
just trying to sell online and through local record stores on cosignment
(they drove all over the area delivering these by hand). They were so
broked and desperate that even though they made a few sales here and there,
they neglected to pay me and used the money to pay their own bills, etc....
that ended up causing some conflicts and bad feelings when I would try to
collect... it wasn't much money (maybe only a few hundred sales), so it
wasn't worth going to court over (which would have cost much more and they
had no money to collect anyway).

There's more to the story, but you get the idea. I had worked with these
guys for several years and considered them good friends, but then it all
went bad and we didn't even talk for almost two years. We have since worked
things out and regained some of that friendship, but I no longer do spec
deals for ANYONE. NEVER AGAIN! It's NEVER worth it!!!

The major studio I used to work at was owned (but not operated or even
managed) by a trust fund guy who had plenty of money. He had ventured into
lots of different things himself. Since the studio was constantly losing
money (he made the mistake of doing a big million dollar build out in a
warehouse/office in the middle of a prime Microsoft/Nintendo office park, so
his lease just kept getting jacked up all the time and there is too much
construction in there to simply move) he decided to try to start their own
label. They found a really great band that had a big buzz going and already
some interest from some smaller labels, and they did a deal with them and
recorded them at the big studio and put out the CD. I don't know all the
details other than that deal didn't work out either and they didn't make any
money off of it.

I think every studio owner has thought about it or tried it at one point or
another, and I have yet to hear of any big success stories from any kind of
spec deal. I'm sure there are probably a few out there, but the chances of
it working out in a good way are about as much as winning the lottery! If
you've got free time that you need to fill up, then instead of giving it
away to people from whom you'll probably never see a cent, try coming up
with some of your own products that you can sell instead and be in complete
control of. I started doing that myself and am now shifting more and more
into being a private production company putting out products for specific
markets, and I find that it's a MUCH better investment for my time and leads
to a better return than I could ever hope for from most bands/artists. I
still like working with bands/artists, but I won't do it on spec ever again!

Good luck! Hope this helps!

Steve

--
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In article writes:

Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller
hourly rate?

I'm sure someone has thought of that, and done it. Trouble is that you
need to have some realistic idea of the sales potential - 2 points on
300 CDs is barely enough to pay for the coffee. 2 point on 500,000
units might be worth while. If you're dealing with someone who might
have a lawyer, you'd better get one too.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Artie Ripp (yes real name) had a studio and a guy named Billy Joel. Had
aproduction deal and even after the huge hits they settled and Artie still got
25 cents a record.


---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

Two small success stories:

1) The first record I ever put out was on spec, with me getting 25% ownership.
I made back, over time, about the same as I would have from the original
sessions -- BUT it was done on a shoestring, direct to two-track, in two long
weekends, on location after midnight, and there was minimal editing involved --
basically leadering complete takes together. So I wouldn't have made much
billing it hourly either.

2) Back in 1966 a fellow named Strachwitz cut a 45 for a jug-band player named
McDonald of an antiwar song he'd written (Viet Nam was at its worst peak) in
exchange for the copyright. The deal was a handshake, nothing written. The song
was "Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-to-Die Rag", and when McDonald, now morphed into
Country Joe (and the Fish), sang the song at Woodstock and it made it into the
movie, Strachwitz stood to make a pile of money. And since Country Joe was an
honest man, he made good on the handshake deal, and Strachwitz turned his
hobby-label, Arhoolie, into a going concern. (Country Joe collected performer's
royalties, so he didn't starve either.)

But those are both very exceptional situations; in general, doing stuff on spec
is, as others have said, an inviation to problems and heartache.

Peace,
Paul

Actually, lots of studios have invested in doing just this, but they are the
ones finding the talent and coming up with the producers, the song list, the
musicians, etc. In other words, this is what the recording companies did in
the first place because they held all the cards. They still charged studio
rates and it came out of any advance, but you've not hit upon anything new.
The difference is the level at which you are working. If you accept points
in liew of money, then who actually promotes the recordings? If it's
somebody else, then you don't know if they are doing their jobs, reporting
the income correctly, or just jerking you around.

The first thing to think about is your studio. A) would the product
actually represent what you can do and sound good enough for people to
purchase? B) are these guys just jerking you around, looking for a cheap
recording and will gladly leave you in a lurch once they have the CD in
hand? C) are they willing to actively promote the CD and will they account
for every sale?

If you have to play manager in order to get the ability to have a true
accounting of their sales, is that worth it to you? Is the band really
worth it or just another band that has pork fat's chance in hell of
congealing into a saleable property?

If you go through an entire Pros/Cons list of all the thoughts you've had
about doing such a project, I'm absolutely certain that you'll come up with
about a 10:1 ratio of Cons to Pros, which on paper say NO, Don't Do It. But
then you have to look at yourself in the mirror every morning. I often
wonder about all those A&R guys that rejected the Beatles, but since they
never made it into history, we'll never know.

It's your time and your equipment. You have to decide if the group is worth
the effort and can you trust them and a whole bunch of other things. Again,
once you look at such a thought in the light of day the answer is that you
probably had a pretty good night but should forget the possibilities and
focus on realities. After all, baby may need a new pair of shoes WAAAYYYYY
before you see any money from such an endeavor.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"Mick F. Cantarella" wrote in message
...
Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller
hourly rate? In this economy I¹m considering doing this. Are there
contracts to sign? Lawyers to higher? What usually happens here?

Thanks a bunch, -Mick

--
Lose the "antispam_" from my email address to reply

Well, I think probably it's a little more prevalent today in the boy band
and Britney a-likes since mostly it's producers taking on the responsibility
to find them, bring them along, provide the songs, provide the tracks they
sing to and overall manage the situation from start to finish, but yes, I'd
say that as someone who's working in a small/medium environment, it's not
likely to happen. Actually, I'd call it philanthropy more than business,
but then Barry Gordy got started by finding acts and doing the work himself.
Bob probably has a whole lot of stories about those acts, and he's been a
proponent of starting one's own record company and doing the basics just
like Gordy did, so I guess it depends on one's abilities and
stick-to-it-tiveness.

But nobody hitches a ride on a star anymore. Stars are created and it takes
tons of work to do it. The studio is just a PLACE that the process begins,
but really only a moment in the "star's" life. If a star is born at
someone's studio, that studio will be lucky to see the bucks again unless
they are REAL GOOD at picking the next big thing to come along. Today it's
more about the money it costs to sell someone than the recording to show
someone's chops.

In other words, it's not a real working environment from which to build a
basis of trust. Just recording/mixing a group has absolutely nothing to do
with whether they will go anywhere, and if they don't, you've bitten the
bullet. But if one has the propensity to do the work, keep the talent in
line, and go for the brass ring, then it's that person's abilities or
failings that will make or break the group.

Why does everything come back to Mixerman's Chronicles? Making the wild
hair assumption that two CDs down the road, with reasonable regional sales
of a "spec'd" CD, what happens when the band has played 250 dates together
night after night to promote the album? Remember, the CD sales go up with a
decent tour, but, like Dave Mason standing on stage all coked out, it
doesn't do a bit of good when the crowd leaves not wanting to buy a CD and
actually couldn't care less about seeing the band again ever. The last
sentence describes one hell of a lot of work just to get one's money back.
If one has the conjones to do the job and the band/artist is good enough,
the rewards can be very great indeed. But the number of times it has
happened is probably contained on both your hands and your toes.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"P Stamler" wrote in message
...
Two small success stories:

1) The first record I ever put out was on spec, with me getting 25%
ownership.
I made back, over time, about the same as I would have from the original
sessions -- BUT it was done on a shoestring, direct to two-track, in two
long
weekends, on location after midnight, and there was minimal editing
involved --
basically leadering complete takes together. So I wouldn't have made much
billing it hourly either.

2) Back in 1966 a fellow named Strachwitz cut a 45 for a jug-band player
named
McDonald of an antiwar song he'd written (Viet Nam was at its worst peak)
in
exchange for the copyright. The deal was a handshake, nothing written. The
song
was "Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-to-Die Rag", and when McDonald, now morphed into
Country Joe (and the Fish), sang the song at Woodstock and it made it into
the
movie, Strachwitz stood to make a pile of money. And since Country Joe was
an
honest man, he made good on the handshake deal, and Strachwitz turned his
hobby-label, Arhoolie, into a going concern. (Country Joe collected
performer's
royalties, so he didn't starve either.)

But those are both very exceptional situations; in general, doing stuff on
spec
is, as others have said, an inviation to problems and heartache.

Peace,
Paul

Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller
hourly rate? In this economy I¹m considering doing this. Are there
contracts to sign? Lawyers to higher? What usually happens here?

Someone once told me what spec really means.

Don't spec to get paid.

YMMV.

---
-Jay Kahrs
Owner - Chief Engineer
Mad Moose Recording Inc.
Morris Plains, NJ
http://www.madmooserecording.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Come visit me here -- http://www.gearslutz.com

Mick F. Cantarella wrote:

What usually happens here?

You work for nothing.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

LeBaron & Alrich wrote:

Mick F. Cantarella wrote:

What usually happens here?

You work for nothing.

Or less.

Mick F. Cantarella wrote:
Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller
hourly rate? In this economy I¹m considering doing this. Are there
contracts to sign? Lawyers to higher? What usually happens here?

What usually happens is that you lose money, but ask your lawyer to
check over the contract that the label will bring you.

Points are nice, but don't take them in lieu of actual money. I'll take
points if it's a group I really believe in, that I feel needs to get more
recognition, but with the expectation that I am basically working for free.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Do studios ever receive points on CD sales in exchange for a smaller
hourly rate? In this economy I¹m considering doing this. Are there
contracts to sign? Lawyers to higher? What usually happens here?



I'd have to agree with the first reply and say not to do. Have you been
reading the newspapers? There's always some lawsuit going on about how someone
was cheated out of the profits.

I can understand your feelings though, things may not be as busy as you'd like
them to be but I wouldn't do it!

I have to tell someone right now that I won't be listing their Ebay item for
them - why? - well because they don't want to pay anything upfront and they
want to hold their item until it gets sold - which means I'll have to trek back
and forth with them and it is not worth the headache!


Rose
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