[Peter Wieck]

Just a few observations, and some bits and pieces I have accumulated
over the years relative to some of the discussions herein.

1) Acoustic Feedback for a Turntable

Setting up a turntable - after the basic plumb/level/square stuff
with the base:
a) Set the tracking force.
b) Set the Anti-Skate force. This latter will be a function of the
tracking and the peculiar design of the arm/cartridge combination - it
is no 'across-the-board' the same. If the one thing (tracking)
changes, so does the other (anti-skate).
c) If a linear TT, make sure that it is functioning properly without
any binding, over or under travel.

****** TO CHECK FOR FEEDBACK******

Put the arm on the record, about midway with the turntable STOPPED.
Turn the volume to just a tad louder than your normal listening level.
*NOTHING* should happen.
Walk around the room a bit. *NOTHING* should happen.

If you start getting feedback, then something is wrong and the TT is
not properly isolated.

2) If you like vinyl, use it. There is, or should be no guilt
involved. I like vintage radio. Vintage radios typically do not sound
like my audio system. Doesn't make them bad. Just different. Doesn't
make them good either. Just different. Remember, the Opposite of BLACK
is *NOT* white - it is "NOT BLACK".

3) If you want to preserve vinyl (the most expensive part of any vinyl-
based system is the vinyl itself, and therefore worth its
preservation) - then do so. If you want to do it using an analog
medium, then do so. It remains a somewhat free country even in these
troubled times - so the difference between any one medium over any
other medium are two things: the cost and the trouble involved. If it
is a hobby, perhaps the trouble is not relevant. If one is using
discretionary income, then neither is the cost.

4) Although I still stand amazed at some of the various types of Snake-
Oil and poison Kool-Aid available to those in the Audio Hobby - one's
right/freedom to subscribe to them remains. Just please let it be an
informed subscription. Writing for myself, I will continue to be an
"Anti" in the GREAT CABLE DEBATE as all the "Pros" have yet to offer a
single iota of independently verifiable proof of their assertions -
and that extends to Jojoba Root, cable catenaries, little green men
from Mars and so forth. But those who are Pro also have their place in
the choir - however laughable it might be...... hee hee.

Cutting to the chase - go out and have $%^&*(*& FUN with the hobby.
Ain't nobody here gonna be converted by fly-poop-from-pepper debates.
But a lot less fun will be had if any of those debates are taken
seriously.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Mike Gilmour[_2_]]

"Peter Wieck" wrote in message
...
Just a few observations, and some bits and pieces I have accumulated
over the years relative to some of the discussions herein.

1) Acoustic Feedback for a Turntable

Setting up a turntable - after the basic plumb/level/square stuff
with the base:
a) Set the tracking force.
b) Set the Anti-Skate force. This latter will be a function of the
tracking and the peculiar design of the arm/cartridge combination - it
is no 'across-the-board' the same. If the one thing (tracking)
changes, so does the other (anti-skate).
c) If a linear TT, make sure that it is functioning properly without
any binding, over or under travel.

****** TO CHECK FOR FEEDBACK******

Put the arm on the record, about midway with the turntable STOPPED.
Turn the volume to just a tad louder than your normal listening level.
*NOTHING* should happen.
Walk around the room a bit. *NOTHING* should happen.

If you start getting feedback, then something is wrong and the TT is
not properly isolated.

2) If you like vinyl, use it. There is, or should be no guilt
involved. I like vintage radio. Vintage radios typically do not sound
like my audio system. Doesn't make them bad. Just different. Doesn't
make them good either. Just different. Remember, the Opposite of BLACK
is *NOT* white - it is "NOT BLACK".

3) If you want to preserve vinyl (the most expensive part of any vinyl-
based system is the vinyl itself, and therefore worth its
preservation) - then do so. If you want to do it using an analog
medium, then do so. It remains a somewhat free country even in these
troubled times - so the difference between any one medium over any
other medium are two things: the cost and the trouble involved. If it
is a hobby, perhaps the trouble is not relevant. If one is using
discretionary income, then neither is the cost.

4) Although I still stand amazed at some of the various types of Snake-
Oil and poison Kool-Aid available to those in the Audio Hobby - one's
right/freedom to subscribe to them remains. Just please let it be an
informed subscription. Writing for myself, I will continue to be an
"Anti" in the GREAT CABLE DEBATE as all the "Pros" have yet to offer a
single iota of independently verifiable proof of their assertions -
and that extends to Jojoba Root, cable catenaries, little green men
from Mars and so forth. But those who are Pro also have their place in
the choir - however laughable it might be...... hee hee.

Cutting to the chase - go out and have $%^&*(*& FUN with the hobby.
Ain't nobody here gonna be converted by fly-poop-from-pepper debates.
But a lot less fun will be had if any of those debates are taken
seriously.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


As this is a high-end group I would suggest additionally that if you're
using subwoofers or bass speakers that with your level of listening do
perform at a high SPL i.e. you enjoy your music at realistic levels or
greater (no neighbours to bother about) then you will need to pay special
attention to turntable isolation if you want the best performance from your
system.
http://www.lurcher.org/ukra/mike_g/mike_g.html
As you'll see from my system I went to a lot of trouble freeing the
turntable both airborne and structurally, it really paid dividends sonically
with a far cleaner bass response and much improved imaging.
This is an old web site as I now have room treatment in the way of bass
traps, diffusers etc. and the mid/treble speakers are brought out into the
room more and I have more digital equipment however I've had 25 years of
enjoyment out of this main system and it still works superbly every time - I
guess I've had my moneys worth but nowadays the cost of electricity does
make listening quite a bit more costly.
Regarding cables, as I used to be in the audio business so I didn't pay
anywhere near original cost and I always liked the sound of Cogan-Hall
interconnects (this is a personal choice not backed up by any double blind
tests).

[C. Leeds]

Peter Wieck wrote:

Setting up a turntable - after the basic plumb/level/square stuff
with the base:
a) Set the tracking force.
b) Set the Anti-Skate force...

Oh no, this is completely mistaken.
First (after leveling): set overhang. Arguably, this is a far more
critical aspect of setup than everything else, and a very difficult
alignment to get correct. In any event, it must be done first.
Second: set tracking force.
Third: set stylus rake angle.
Fourth: set overhang again, because it is influenced by steps two and
three.

...If the one thing (tracking)
changes, so does the other (anti-skate).

So does overhang. So does SRA.

c) If a linear TT, make sure that it is functioning properly without
any binding, over or under travel.

Actually, the same is true for a pivoted arm.

[Arny Krueger]

"C. Leeds" wrote in message
...
Peter Wieck wrote:

Setting up a turntable - after the basic plumb/level/square stuff
with the base:
a) Set the tracking force.
b) Set the Anti-Skate force...

Oh no, this is completely mistaken.

Well, missing a few important pieces...

First (after leveling): set overhang. Arguably, this is a far more
critical aspect of setup than everything else, and a very difficult
alignment to get correct. In any event, it must be done first.

Second: set tracking force.

Third: set stylus rake angle.

Fourth: set overhang again, because it is influenced by steps two and
three.

Hmm, all this *expert* advice and no mention of azimuth? ;-)

I'm surprised that either or both of the two Scotts haven't already
commented on this omission, as they have been (and I think highly
appropriately so) been discussing it and its effects here just lately.

[C. Leeds]

Arny Krueger wrote:
...
Peter Wieck wrote:

Setting up a turntable - after the basic plumb/level/square stuff
with the base:
a) Set the tracking force.
b) Set the Anti-Skate force...

I wrote:

Oh no, this is completely mistaken.
First (after leveling): set overhang. Arguably, this is a far more
critical aspect of setup than everything else, and a very difficult
alignment to get correct. In any event, it must be done first.

Second: set tracking force.

Third: set stylus rake angle.

Fourth: set overhang again, because it is influenced by steps two and
three.

Mr. Krueger answers:
Hmm, all this *expert* advice and no mention of azimuth? ;-)

Azimuth can be set last. I noted the required steps in sequence, as did
the original poster.

Incidentally, some arms cannot be readily aligned for azimuth. Arguably,
if the pickup arm and cartridge are properly constructed, then no
azimuth adjustment is needed.

[Rob Tweed]

To avoid feedback, why not make a digital recording of your LP with
your speakers turned off. Then ditch the turntable and just listen to
the digital recording at whatever volume you like. If you use a
decent ADC you'll hear all that LP sound in all its untainted glory.
And you can add the file to your iTunes or whatever other library and
listen to the LP as many times as you like without worrying about the
incremental damage you're doing to it.

All this stuff about the tedious messing about we had to do with
turntables, cartridge alignment, arm balancing etc etc makes me
realise what a fundamentally flawed and inconvenient medium the vinyl
LP was. And of course the ridiculous costs of components that tried
to wring a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Ah I can hear the flames approaching!

On 23 Oct 2008 19:48:58 GMT, Peter Wieck wrote:

Just a few observations, and some bits and pieces I have accumulated
over the years relative to some of the discussions herein.

1) Acoustic Feedback for a Turntable

Setting up a turntable - after the basic plumb/level/square stuff
with the base:
a) Set the tracking force.
b) Set the Anti-Skate force. This latter will be a function of the
tracking and the peculiar design of the arm/cartridge combination - it
is no 'across-the-board' the same. If the one thing (tracking)
changes, so does the other (anti-skate).
c) If a linear TT, make sure that it is functioning properly without
any binding, over or under travel.

****** TO CHECK FOR FEEDBACK******

Put the arm on the record, about midway with the turntable STOPPED.
Turn the volume to just a tad louder than your normal listening level.
*NOTHING* should happen.
Walk around the room a bit. *NOTHING* should happen.

If you start getting feedback, then something is wrong and the TT is
not properly isolated.

2) If you like vinyl, use it. There is, or should be no guilt
involved. I like vintage radio. Vintage radios typically do not sound
like my audio system. Doesn't make them bad. Just different. Doesn't
make them good either. Just different. Remember, the Opposite of BLACK
is *NOT* white - it is "NOT BLACK".

3) If you want to preserve vinyl (the most expensive part of any vinyl-
based system is the vinyl itself, and therefore worth its
preservation) - then do so. If you want to do it using an analog
medium, then do so. It remains a somewhat free country even in these
troubled times - so the difference between any one medium over any
other medium are two things: the cost and the trouble involved. If it
is a hobby, perhaps the trouble is not relevant. If one is using
discretionary income, then neither is the cost.

4) Although I still stand amazed at some of the various types of Snake-
Oil and poison Kool-Aid available to those in the Audio Hobby - one's
right/freedom to subscribe to them remains. Just please let it be an
informed subscription. Writing for myself, I will continue to be an
"Anti" in the GREAT CABLE DEBATE as all the "Pros" have yet to offer a
single iota of independently verifiable proof of their assertions -
and that extends to Jojoba Root, cable catenaries, little green men
from Mars and so forth. But those who are Pro also have their place in
the choir - however laughable it might be...... hee hee.

Cutting to the chase - go out and have $%^&*(*& FUN with the hobby.
Ain't nobody here gonna be converted by fly-poop-from-pepper debates.
But a lot less fun will be had if any of those debates are taken
seriously.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

---

Rob Tweed
Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd
Registered in England: No 3220901
Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR

Web-site: http://www.mgateway.com

[Richard Tollerton]

On Oct 30, 8:16*am, Rob Tweed wrote:
To avoid feedback, why not make a digital recording of your LP with
your speakers turned off. *Then ditch the turntable and just listen to
the digital recording at whatever volume you like. *If you use a
decent ADC you'll hear all that LP sound in all its untainted glory.
And you can add the file to your iTunes or whatever other library and
listen to the LP as many times as you like without worrying about the
incremental damage you're doing to it.

All this stuff about the tedious messing about we had to do with
turntables, cartridge alignment, arm balancing etc etc makes me
realise what a fundamentally flawed and inconvenient medium the vinyl
LP was. *And of course the ridiculous costs of components that tried
to wring a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Ah I can hear the flames approaching!


That's exactly what I do, actually. Except I also record flat to a
combo mic preamp/ADC FireWire box with balanced cabling. Totally off
the deep end! But the results are great.