[Ken Winokur]

I'm getting ready to move my studio and am considering getting rid of
my Soundcraft Ghost 32 channel. It's getting very funky as is the
massive patchbay and cabling. Also I would like to reclaim the space
it it takes.

So I would be moving to a selection of mic pre's, with a small board
to monitor some analogue sources.

I typically record about 16 channel simultaneously into my two RME
Fireface 800's. So, I would like to have 18 or 20

[Scott Dorsey]

Ken Winokur wrote:
I'm getting ready to move my studio and am considering getting rid of
my Soundcraft Ghost 32 channel. It's getting very funky as is the
massive patchbay and cabling. Also I would like to reclaim the space
it it takes.

So I would be moving to a selection of mic pre's, with a small board
to monitor some analogue sources.

I typically record about 16 channel simultaneously into my two RME
Fireface 800's. So, I would like to have 18 or 20

What's the budget? Lots of companies make nice 8-channel mike preamps.
Mackie even makes one that isn't so bad. Millennia makes one that is a
whole lot nicer.

As I recall you're using synths... you might be able to get away without
so many preamps at all. There's no preamp cleaner than no preamp.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger]

"Ken Winokur" wrote in message


I'm getting ready to move my studio and am considering
getting rid of my Soundcraft Ghost 32 channel. It's
getting very funky as is the massive patchbay and
cabling. Also I would like to reclaim the space it it
takes.

So I would be moving to a selection of mic pre's, with a
small board to monitor some analogue sources.

I typically record about 16 channel simultaneously into
my two RME Fireface 800's. So, I would like to have 18
or 20

I'm under the impression that the cheapest way to get that many nice preamps
is to buy a good board. ;-)

[Ken Winokur]

We do use synths, but they are typically only 2 inputs at a time while
recording (and usually a midi recording). I go directly into the RME
Fireface 800 with the synths. We do set up lots of mics (12 - 14
typically) for an elaborate assemblage of drums and percussion (both
conventional and lots of odd stuff). Since we record ourselves, we
set up mics on everything, and then just record the appropriate tracks
for each cue of a film. It's very time efficient to have it all set
up in advance, and do not to have to move around mics. So I do really
need the mic pre's. Also, I also do an occasional band where I'll
need quite a few mic channels.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the new boardless studios I see
everywhere. I'm used to doing all my monitoring in the analogue
Soundcraft, but know it's feasible to do it in the RME virtual mixer
(which we do already with the synths).

The new studio won't be done for a while. I'm thinking of getting a
modest set of mic pre's now and working with them to get comfortable
without the board (before I have to commit to going boardless). Then
when I make the switch (probably in mid 2012) I'll consider a few
really great pre's (True Systems Precision 8 sounds like a great deal
at this time, and then of course there are the obvious Millenia, Great
River etc.).

I would consider a good board, but I don't see anything that's better
than my Soundcraft for under at least $20,000. I've looked at the
Toft stuff, but the reviews I've seen don't rave about the mic pre's,
and have been said to sound much like the Soundcraft I already own.
It also sounds like the sensitivity is quite low (and I fairly often
am using low output mics like my RE20 - I do some narration recording
- and have to practically pin the gain on my Ghost.

So (as you'll see in my complet post above), I'm looking at RME's
(there are 4 channel
Quadmic for about $550), Sytek (MPX-4a - 4 channels available used
for about $650 or new for $895), and an older Hill Multimix board (16
channels for
$300 - 400).

If I keep my board, I'm going to have to spend a good bit on having it
cleaned and fixed. If I keep the now funky patch bay (every in and
out on the board are wired to the patch bay, as well as various tie
lines, and outboard equipment), it's going to have to be largely
updated and thoroughly cleaned. The studio had a fire next door some
years ago, and the equipment seems to be suffering from the effects of
having some smoke waft into the room. Most of the faders and pots are
crunchy, and most of the points in the patch bay are sketchy.

The mic pre's above all seem to be a step above my Soundcraft, or at
least as good. Anybody used a Hill recently and compared it to really
good pre's?

We used our Multimix in the studio decades ago, and did many fine
location recordings of classical music for Boston's NPR station WBUR.
We also did some in studio bands and soundtrack stuff. I hadn't used
many good pre's at that time (I was comparing it to my Ramsa boards),
so I don't know if my memory is reasonably accurate or if the Hill was
just the best available to me at the time. Obviously the Hill would
be a cheap way to test out a new system of recording, and would
probably serve in the final studio as a small board to return the RME
output to, and mix in a turntable, cd player, etc.

[Ethan Winer[_3_]]

On Mar 11, 10:09 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
I'm under the impression that the cheapest way to get that many nice preamps
is to buy a good board. ;-)

Indeed. Further, the audible benefit of expensive preamps is over-
rated IMO.

--Ethan

[Ken Winokur]

On Mar 11, 12:18*pm, Ethan Winer wrote:
On Mar 11, 10:09 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

I'm under the impression that the cheapest way to get that many nice preamps
is to buy a good board. ;-)

Indeed. Further, the audible benefit of expensive preamps is over-
rated IMO.

--Ethan

Again, what is a good sounding and reasonably priced board with at
least 24 inputs, that doesn't cost fifty grand? Add to that the cost
of rewiring lots of patch bays, and the price is really high.

Frankly, I've had the same feeling that the almost fanatical focus on
mic pre's is a little out of hand, but I haven't had the pleasure of
really using great pre's, so I mistrust that judgment.

I do know that if you're working with a Mackie (older models) it's
hard to get a smooth and nice sounding recording. My old Bellari tube
pre sounded pretty bad. When I changed from my old (and well reputed
Ramsa boards) my recordings took a big step up in clarity and punch.
But my Soundcraft has been a workhorse and my recordings sound fine to
my ears. I feel that I have adjusted my methods of recording to
match it's sound (choice of mics, placement, eq, processing etc.)

I'm really looking to make a change due to decaying older equipment,
cost, reliability, space limitations and work flow.

It seems that for the price of fixing and rewiring my old equipment I
can get a bunch of good pre's and a couple of great ones. It will
save space and should be more reliable.

I've been looking at old used boards for years (Trident, Neotek, etc.)
but my experience with old equipment is that it's very hard to keep
maintained (and repairs are expensive). I would rather have something
that's solid and reliable.

[Scott Dorsey]

Ken Winokur wrote:

Again, what is a good sounding and reasonably priced board with at
least 24 inputs, that doesn't cost fifty grand? Add to that the cost
of rewiring lots of patch bays, and the price is really high.

Look for a used Interface console. DDA made them but Electro-Voice resold
them in the US. The input sections were generic SSM2017 preamp chips, but
they can be upgraded with a little work to the new THAT pin-compatible
replacements. These consoles could also be ordered with transformer isolation
on the inputs and that's also an easy thing to add after the fact because
there's a spot on the board for them.

The EQ and routing is nice too and they are very pleasant to mix on.

You can also try the Crest consoles as well, which can be had for very
little money. Mike preamp sections are better than the unmodified DDA and
again the EQ and routing are good.

Frankly, I've had the same feeling that the almost fanatical focus on
mic pre's is a little out of hand, but I haven't had the pleasure of
really using great pre's, so I mistrust that judgment.

Part of the problem is that the middle end of the market has more or less
disappeared, so there is a lot of awful crap and a lot of expensive high
end stuff and not much else in the middle. Things like the Symetrix SX202
just aren't on the market any longer.

It seems that for the price of fixing and rewiring my old equipment I
can get a bunch of good pre's and a couple of great ones. It will
save space and should be more reliable.

I've been looking at old used boards for years (Trident, Neotek, etc.)
but my experience with old equipment is that it's very hard to keep
maintained (and repairs are expensive). I would rather have something
that's solid and reliable.

The thing is, the old Trident consoles are maintainable, so when stuff goes
wrong you can actually fix them.

Incidentally there are some newer Trident consoles that are made in Asia
and in current production. 24 channel one is probably in your price range.
They're remarkably well-made for the price, modular strips and everything is
socketed.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Nate Najar]

On Mar 11, 9:33*am, Ken Winokur wrote:
I'm getting ready to move my studio and am considering getting rid of
my Soundcraft Ghost 32 channel. *It's getting very funky as is the
massive patchbay and cabling. *Also I would like to reclaim the space
it it takes.

So I would be moving to a selection of mic pre's, with a small board
to monitor some analogue sources.

I typically record about 16 channel simultaneously into my two RME
Fireface 800's. *So, I would like to have 18 or 20

I love the true precision 8. I feel no need to upgrade my preamps and
it's a great value at 8 channels for $2500 new. the best part is you
can get them used for around $1500. so for 3 grand you've got 16
channels. they have dual outputs (one on db25 and one on trs) and
they sound great. clean, detailed and quiet. I used to have 2
channels of millennia, and I would love to have 16 channels of
millennia, but I don't need it. the True will get you through
anything.

N

[Ty Ford]

RNP from Mark McQuilken: http://www.fmraudio.com/
dbx 286a (I know it's a processor too, but they did a good job on this one)
Sound Devices Mix-Pre, MM-1 and MP-1 http://www.sounddevices.com/

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Ken Winokur]

You can also try the Crest consoles as well, which can be had for very
little money. *Mike preamp sections are better than the unmodified DDA and
again the EQ and routing are good.

--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Are all Crests alike (soundwise)? Does the compact Crest Audio X 20RM
sound as good as the big consoles?

I get the sense that underlying your recommendations is a preference
to having an analogue console (for simple and latency free
monitoring).

I always hear of Tridents as THE rock and roll board. There are no
crunching guitars or in-your-face vocals for us. It should sound
sweet and natural (as natural as a steel bedpan, plumbing pipes or a
bunch of horseshoes can sound).

I never mix through the board any more (our scores are usually an hour
and a half long, and way too complicated to mix manually). And I
rarely use the eq. (too easy to dial it up on the computer while
listening to the mix), The board would serve only for mic pres and
monitoring.

[Ken Winokur]

On Mar 11, 2:13*pm, Ty Ford wrote:
RNP from Mark McQuilken:http://www.fmraudio.com/
dbx 286a (I know it's a processor too, but they did a good job on this one)
Sound Devices Mix-Pre, MM-1 and MP-1 *http://www.sounddevices.com/

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demoshttp://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

The RNP's are definitely on my list. Although I have read a few on-
line reviews that compared them directly to the Sytek. The Sytek won
out. Also aren't the RNP's derived from the Neve's, and have a pretty
colored sound with a rolled off high end?

I do have a Sound Devices 302 which I have used for location film
work. That's three down and 15 to go!

[Sean Conolly]

"Ken Winokur" wrote in message
...
You can also try the Crest consoles as well, which can be had for very
little money. Mike preamp sections are better than the unmodified DDA
and
again the EQ and routing are good.

--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Are all Crests alike (soundwise)? Does the compact Crest Audio X 20RM
sound as good as the big consoles?

Hmm, I have a lovely XR20 sitting here, and although I've never compared it
to a high end console, I can say that it just sounds good, from one end to
the other. I've never thought that the preamps of the EQ were really lacking
anything in a way that was hindering me at all. That said, I have had very
good experiences with the Sytek on drum overheads, but not so much that I
feel that I must have one.

I always hear of Tridents as THE rock and roll board. There are no
crunching guitars or in-your-face vocals for us. It should sound
sweet and natural (as natural as a steel bedpan, plumbing pipes or a
bunch of horseshoes can sound).

The thing about something like the Trident is not only does it sound great,
but it's a *much* better investment. If you put a few grand in refurbishing
it you should be able to get most of it back if you decide to move to
something else.

I never mix through the board any more (our scores are usually an hour
and a half long, and way too complicated to mix manually). And I
rarely use the eq. (too easy to dial it up on the computer while
listening to the mix), The board would serve only for mic pres and
monitoring.

It still comes down to budget. At the higher end there's a lot of dedicated
preamps with and without converters. In the mid price range, I don't see a
lot that is markedly better that what you can get in a board at around the
same price. Maybe better to stick to the Soundcraft for general stuff and
pickup a couple of extra 'premium' channels for specific purposes - like a
John Hardy or Great River for vocals.

Sean

[PStamler]

I've been quite pleased with the Syteks the few times I've gotten to
use them -- very low coloration, nice and clear-sounding. One thing to
watch out for: on loud signals you can't turn the gain down far
enough. I hung a couple of Gefell M930s over a drum kit, and even at
minimum gain through the Syteks I was peaking out over the point where
the ProTools HD rig went into overload. The Syteks didn't clip, but
the recorder did.

So if you go with Syteks, and record loud things with hot mics (which
it sounds like you might) build a few inline pads.

An alternative might be to keep the Soundcraft and invest in a case of
CaiLube.

Peace,
Paul

[Sean Conolly]

"Ken Winokur" wrote in message
...
On Mar 11, 2:13 pm, Ty Ford wrote:
RNP from Mark McQuilken:http://www.fmraudio.com/
dbx 286a (I know it's a processor too, but they did a good job on this
one)
Sound Devices Mix-Pre, MM-1 and MP-1 http://www.sounddevices.com/

Ty Ford

The RNP's are definitely on my list. Although I have read a few on-
line reviews that compared them directly to the Sytek. The Sytek won
out. Also aren't the RNP's derived from the Neve's, and have a pretty
colored sound with a rolled off high end?

Hmm, I don't think of the RNP as a 'colored' preamp per se, it doesn't have
a specific tone that I can hear. To me it's just a class A preamp with a few
compromies to reduce cost, one of those being noise floor. I use it for
vocals on stage a lot because it just seems to work well with about any mic
that turns up.

I've compared mine side by side with the a Sytek, and for the mics we had
available, I'd rate the Sytek 'clean' channels as best, the RNP second, and
the Sytek channels with the Burr-Brown op-amps third. Note that we didn't
have any *good* large diaphragm mics to try, so my opinion is somewhat
skewed.

Sean

[Mike Rivers]

On 3/11/2011 9:33 AM, Ken Winokur wrote:

So I would be moving to a selection of mic pre's, with a small board
to monitor some analogue sources.

Every preamp is a budget preamp. What's YOUR budget?

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Mike Rivers]

On 3/11/2011 12:18 PM, Ethan Winer wrote:

Indeed. Further, the audible benefit of expensive preamps is over-
rated IMO.

I would say that's at least 75% accurate. (+/- 2.5 dB). A
few nice preamps makes you feel good and matters on some
things. I'd suggest getting a Mackie Onyx 1640i and you'll
kill both birds with one investment. When it gets funky in a
couple of years, you'll probably have made enough money to
buy a boat and use the Onyx as an anchor.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Mike Rivers]

On 3/11/2011 12:39 PM, Ken Winokur wrote:

Again, what is a good sounding and reasonably priced board with at
least 24 inputs, that doesn't cost fifty grand? Add to that the cost
of rewiring lots of patch bays, and the price is really high.

Oh, you want a large board? OK, then get two Onyxen. You
already have a used board, not much sense in getting another
one. You might want to look at a PreSonus 24-channel
StudioLive. The preamps sound a little different from the
Mackie but they're about on the same level - nothing to
complain about. With a bunch of people running around from
mic to mic willy nilly in the studio like you've described,
you might even appreciate that with a computer and an iPad,
you can control every function on it remotely. So you can
set up monitor mixes, mute channels,

I've been looking at old used boards for years (Trident, Neotek, etc.)
but my experience with old equipment is that it's very hard to keep
maintained (and repairs are expensive). I would rather have something
that's solid and reliable.

I agree. Another one to look at is the Allen & Heath GS-R24.
I've never heard it up close, but I had its little brother,
the ZED-R16 in for a review and I really liked it except
that it didn't have 24 inputs (which I probably don't really
need, but a smaller console just looks like a PA mixer) and
I wanted a real meter bridge.

Most of the consoles that you'll find with more than 16
inputs today are primarily live sound consoles, which
probably won't matter too much since the way you're working,
you're only using it as mic preamps and a monitor mixer, but
I want a whole stuido console. That's why I'm hanging on to
my Soundcraft 600.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Ken Winokur]

Every preamp is a budget preamp. What's YOUR budget?

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com- useful and
interesting audio stuff

I'm working the other way around. I'm trying to figure out what I
want and need, and then invest what it costs - not set an arbitrary
budget that I have to fit into. I'll invest over time to make it
right.

I'm actually building a killer studio. It's in an old truck garage.
14 ft ceilings, concrete. It will be 1250 sq. ft total. Not huge, but
big enough for a 600 sq. ft. live room and a 200 sq. ft control room.
There will be a nice office, entrance/ hangout room, bathroom and
lots of storage.

I'm getting Michael Blackmer to design it, so it should sound really
nice.

It will be primarily for use by my own group - Alloy Orchestra. But
I'll certainly do some work with other musicians to help pay the bills
(although I know that's a dicey proposition these days).

The 200 ft. control room (which is exactly what I have now) seems
small with my Ghost, and would seem even smaller with something like a
big Trident or large Crest. I often do overdubs in the control room
(recording myself) and I like a lot of room to spread out my
percussion stuff. Sitting with a computer monitor perched above my
Ghost is awkward, so in any case, I'm going to move the board or mic
pre's off to the side.

I've had a studio for 30 years and much gear has come and gone. I'm
going to invest my money in a great couple of rooms and then put in
some decent equipment. The nice thing about going with separate mic
pre's is that I can add to them as I go along (although I could do the
same thing if I stick with my Ghost).

Here's another question: can you clean up patch bays so that they are
reliable on the long term? I have a 480 point ttl patch bay, wired
with Mogami and Neutrek connectors. Virtually every patch point is
funky - it's OK when used in it's normal positions, but when you start
patching, you have to jiggle the connections almost every time. Since
there's been some smoke in the room, I'm afraid the problem could be
greater than just spraying cleaner into the hole and scrunching around
a cleaning tool.

I've been plumbing you guys for info for a couple of years. One thing
I've realized is that a couple of fancy pre's isn't going to do it for
me. I need lots of decent channels - quiet, transparent and not too
bassy or or high endy (the percussion is already difficult on the
ears).

When you talk about investing over the long haul, all this equipment
is just money-eating junk. Almost all - for the last 30 years I've
been buying mics which hold their value and are (in my opinion) the
most important link to the sound. I can see that a Trident would hold
its value more than most things.

I've very happy with my RME interfaces - the A/D is very sweet
sounding, so I'm not going to change that (so the Onyx idea doesn't
appeal to me).

Back to the original question - anybody got an opinion on the sound of
the Hill Multimix pre amps? How about the RME pre's compared to other
medium or high end pre's. Frankly, I'm thinking that a Multimix now,
and then gradually more excellent pre's is possibly a way to
transition with sound as good as the Ghost, and eventually first
rate? And it costs practically nothing.

The Sytek I'm looking at is half standard and half BB. He wants $640
for it.

[david correia]

In article
,
Ken Winokur wrote:

If I keep my board, I'm going to have to spend a good bit on having it
cleaned and fixed. If I keep the now funky patch bay (every in and
out on the board are wired to the patch bay, as well as various tie
lines, and outboard equipment), it's going to have to be largely
updated and thoroughly cleaned. The studio had a fire next door some
years ago, and the equipment seems to be suffering from the effects of
having some smoke waft into the room. Most of the faders and pots are
crunchy, and most of the points in the patch bay are sketchy.



You might try a burnishing tool before you give up on the patch bay. Use
it lightly.

And also clean up the contacts on your patch bay cords. You gotta expect
some stuff is gonna build up over time.


http://www.markertek.com/Cable-Manag...Assembly-Tools
/VER-1.xhtml



I'd also recommend owning at least one great mic pre. I've had a gml for
about 25 years and it has been invaluable for my work and easily worth
every penny. If you have enough pennies to spend of course.

For voiceover work, an Amek/Neve 9098 pre/eq is amazing with an re20. Or
a 414.





David Correia
www.Celebrationsound.com

[hank alrich]

Ethan Winer wrote:

On Mar 11, 10:09 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
I'm under the impression that the cheapest way to get that many nice preamps
is to buy a good board. ;-)

Indeed. Further, the audible benefit of expensive preamps is over-
rated IMO.

--Ethan

I find good preamps, often of the not-so-cheap variety, as helpful as
good strings for my instruments.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[hank alrich]

Ken Winokur wrote:

I do know that if you're working with a Mackie (older models) it's
hard to get a smooth and nice sounding recording.

The newest mackie line, the Onyx boards, are much better in all regards.

People have said good things about the pres in Malcolm Toft's less
costly boards, but I've not used those.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

On 3/11/2011 9:33 AM, Ken Winokur wrote:

So I would be moving to a selection of mic pre's, with a small board
to monitor some analogue sources.

Every preamp is a budget preamp. What's YOUR budget?

Thank you. If I had a budget it'd have Great Rivers and Gordons all over
it.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[Scott Dorsey]

Ken Winokur wrote:
Are all Crests alike (soundwise)? Does the compact Crest Audio X 20RM
sound as good as the big consoles?

I don't know it. I know the small XR20, which is a great sounding console.

I get the sense that underlying your recommendations is a preference
to having an analogue console (for simple and latency free
monitoring).

Well, in addition it's not that much more expensive than just buying a rack
of preamps. You can get an API 550 rack and fill it up with preamps or
you can get a small modular console full of preamps for more or less the
same money.

I always hear of Tridents as THE rock and roll board. There are no
crunching guitars or in-your-face vocals for us. It should sound
sweet and natural (as natural as a steel bedpan, plumbing pipes or a
bunch of horseshoes can sound).

Then maybe you don't want the newer Tridents, though they might be worth
auditioning. They are definitely not as full of transformers as the old
ones, though, which is probably good for you.

But I think you'd be very happy with a Crest.

I never mix through the board any more (our scores are usually an hour
and a half long, and way too complicated to mix manually). And I
rarely use the eq. (too easy to dial it up on the computer while
listening to the mix), The board would serve only for mic pres and
monitoring.

It comes in handy at the weirdest times, though.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Ken Winokur wrote:

The RNP's are definitely on my list. Although I have read a few on-
line reviews that compared them directly to the Sytek. The Sytek won
out. Also aren't the RNP's derived from the Neve's, and have a pretty
colored sound with a rolled off high end?

The RNP is not a Neve design. No transformer, very clean with very
little coloration.

The RNP does trade noise performance for low distortion and low cost.
It's not as quiet as the Millennia, but then again it costs a lot less.

I've never used the Sytek.

I do have a Sound Devices 302 which I have used for location film
work. That's three down and 15 to go!

How do you like the sound?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

On 3/11/2011 4:47 PM, Ken Winokur wrote:

The 200 ft. control room (which is exactly what I have now) seems
small with my Ghost, and would seem even smaller with something like a
big Trident or large Crest.

That's for sure. I don't really have a working studio in my
house, it's more of a laboratory, but I want to keep that
capability and all the stuff that's there. In my seemingly
eternal search for a new home in Sunny Southern California
I'm having difficulty finding one with a large enough room
that, if used for the studio, would make it less of a home.
Some of us want to be able to "go home from work" to a
fairly normal house even if they're at the same address. g

I've had a studio for 30 years and much gear has come and gone.

I'm going on 45 years myself, and much gear has come, but
very little has gone. I just can't bring myself to follow
the conventional advice of "If you haven't used it in X
years, get rid of it." Sometimes I pull out things that I
haven't used in 20 years. Sometimes I don't even have to fix
it before using it, too.

The nice thing about going with separate mic
pre's is that I can add to them as I go along (although I could do the
same thing if I stick with my Ghost).

That's smart. Can you budget for something like (well,
there' really isn't anything else like) a Speck LiLo, a
line-in (only) console with very flexible routing and very
clean sound?

Here's another question: can you clean up patch bays so that they are
reliable on the long term?Virtually every patch point is
funky - it's OK when used in it's normal positions, but when you start
patching, you have to jiggle the connections almost every time.

I have some patchbays that are more than 50 years old. I
dont have to jiggle connections every time I put in a plug,
but sometimes a connection is noisy. I give it a squirt of
contact cleaner, work the plug in and out a few times, and
it's good for another couple of years. Most of my patch
cables have unplated brass plugs, so now and then I need to
spend 15 minutes with some Brasso cleaning the batch. I
don't think any patchbay is truly maintenance free but some
are better than others. The $400 ones tend to be better than
the $40 ones.

I've been plumbing you guys for info for a couple of years. One thing
I've realized is that a couple of fancy pre's isn't going to do it for
me. I need lots of decent channels - quiet, transparent and not too
bassy or or high endy (the percussion is already difficult on the
ears).

In that case, you need a decent console. Outboard preamps
for everyone is a relatively (last 20 years) new thing.
Consoles used to have pretty decent preamps and nobody
really thought about it. Then when the home studio came
about, mic preamps got pretty skimpy. But now even low end
consoles have decent preamps.

When you talk about investing over the long haul, all this equipment
is just money-eating junk. Almost all - for the last 30 years I've
been buying mics which hold their value and are (in my opinion) the
most important link to the sound. I can see that a Trident would hold
its value more than most things.

Maybe, maybe not. The Trident Series 80 looks today like
it's holding its value, but part of that is a matter of
rarity. There just weren't as many being made so there
aren't as many around as there are Mackies. But is a $50,000
console that's worth $3,000 25 years later a better
investment than a $3,000 console worth $750 (if you could
sell it at all) 15 years later? Ask your accountant.

I've very happy with my RME interfaces - the A/D is very sweet
sounding, so I'm not going to change that (so the Onyx idea doesn't
appeal to me).

But when you can no longer find a computer with a Firewire
interface, what're you going to do with it?

The Sytek I'm looking at is half standard and half BB. He wants $640
for it.

Now THAT sounds like something that's held its value, or
else the seller is being overly optimistic. How many days
has it been on the market?


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Ken Winokur]

Well, I must say you guys have zero'd in on my insecurities about
moving away from a big mixer in favor of a mic pre based system.
Thanks! I've been anguishing about this for years, and though I had
finally come to a decision.

What will I do when firewire goes the way of the dodo? The same thing
I did when the world moved away from 1/2" eight track tape, same thing
I did when my Emu SP12 was replaced in the studio by a Casio FZ1, when
my Sytek drives became useless, the serial port midi interface, the
Mac G4, the DVD Rom, the Zip Drive ... do I need to repeat myself -
money eating junk! You lick your wounds, sell the junk for 10% of
it's original value (if you're lucky) and move on.

For now the RME's work great - no reason to change that one aspect of
the studio.

I'll check out the Speck Lilo - an interesting hybrid solution.

The Sytek mic pre's have been on the market a week. I offered the guy
$550 (seemed reasonable) but he's been watching Ebay and has seen them
go for close to $700 (and so have I).

So far, I'm liking the Crest XR20 solution (small but capable, decent
sounding). Add a True Systems Precision 8 (bunch of RNPs or whatever)
and it would be a cost effective alternative that should improve on
the sound of the Ghost.

[Sean Conolly]

"Ken Winokur" wrote in message
...
So far, I'm liking the Crest XR20 solution (small but capable, decent
sounding). Add a True Systems Precision 8 (bunch of RNPs or whatever)
and it would be a cost effective alternative that should improve on
the sound of the Ghost.

Well, looking at the prices they've actually sold for used on Ebay (one
@$710 and another @$575) I can't think of a nicer board for the money. I
don't think I'll ever dump mine, simply because I could never replace it for
what I'd get for it.

My only complaints are (1) that the phantom power switches are on the back,
and (2) no phase switches. Other than that it sounds great, and with all of
the routing and inserts I've never had a recording or live situation that I
couldn't deal with, as long as I had enough inputs. I've used it daily for
at least six years and haven't had any issues.

Sean

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Ken Winokur wrote:

Well, I must say you guys have zero'd in on my insecurities about
moving away from a big mixer in favor of a mic pre based system.
Thanks! I've been anguishing about this for years, and though I had
finally come to a decision.

What will I do when firewire goes the way of the dodo? The same thing
I did when the world moved away from 1/2" eight track tape, same thing
I did when my Emu SP12 was replaced in the studio by a Casio FZ1, when
my Sytek drives became useless, the serial port midi interface, the
Mac G4, the DVD Rom, the Zip Drive ... do I need to repeat myself -
money eating junk! You lick your wounds, sell the junk for 10% of
it's original value (if you're lucky) and move on.

For now the RME's work great - no reason to change that one aspect of
the studio.

I'll check out the Speck Lilo - an interesting hybrid solution.

When I feel the need to anguish over something I can't afford I take a look
at the Cranesong Spider, my equipment instincts says - without a lot of data
to support it - that it is the "way to go". It appears to the be kind of
implement that goobbles up more money at first, but less later. Reasonably
good equipment tends to be better breadbaskets than less good equipment.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Sean Conolly]

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
k...
Ken Winokur wrote:

Well, I must say you guys have zero'd in on my insecurities about
moving away from a big mixer in favor of a mic pre based system.
Thanks! I've been anguishing about this for years, and though I had
finally come to a decision.

What will I do when firewire goes the way of the dodo? The same thing
I did when the world moved away from 1/2" eight track tape, same thing
I did when my Emu SP12 was replaced in the studio by a Casio FZ1, when
my Sytek drives became useless, the serial port midi interface, the
Mac G4, the DVD Rom, the Zip Drive ... do I need to repeat myself -
money eating junk! You lick your wounds, sell the junk for 10% of
it's original value (if you're lucky) and move on.

For now the RME's work great - no reason to change that one aspect of
the studio.

I'll check out the Speck Lilo - an interesting hybrid solution.

When I feel the need to anguish over something I can't afford I take a
look at the Cranesong Spider, my equipment instincts says - without a lot
of data to support it - that it is the "way to go". It appears to the be
kind of implement that goobbles up more money at first, but less later.
Reasonably good equipment tends to be better breadbaskets than less good
equipment.

You just HAD to bring up the Cranesong :-)

I think of it as something of a lotto dream; I could probably afford it, but
I could never justify it. If I was doing this for a living I probably would
get one.

Sean

[Ken Winokur]

As I've been looking at the various solutions, one product jumps out
at me. The ATI 8MX2. The reviews seem very good. The addition of
the minimal mixer and cue functions would seem to make monitoring easy
(I could sum the 8 or 16 channels and send them to a small monitoring
mixer (like the Crest or some other small board). That way I wouldn't
lose the analogue monitoring that seems so much simpler and more
intuitive (at least for somebody who learned on analogue boards).

Anybody using these? Are they as good sounding as the web reviews
make them seem? Are they competative with True Systems Precision 8 or
other high quality pre's?

As I Iook at the Crest, It seems just a little small for me to use as
my basic mixer. Am I wrong - it seems to only have direct outs on the
first 12 mic channels? I typically use 20 or 21 channels (with mic
pres, and various monitoring). There's no room to grow with this
board.

But, if I'm not using the mic pre's for most of the recording - then
the Crest would be perfect.

[Scott Dorsey]

Ken Winokur wrote:
As I've been looking at the various solutions, one product jumps out
at me. The ATI 8MX2. The reviews seem very good. The addition of
the minimal mixer and cue functions would seem to make monitoring easy
(I could sum the 8 or 16 channels and send them to a small monitoring
mixer (like the Crest or some other small board). That way I wouldn't
lose the analogue monitoring that seems so much simpler and more
intuitive (at least for somebody who learned on analogue boards).

Anybody using these? Are they as good sounding as the web reviews
make them seem? Are they competative with True Systems Precision 8 or
other high quality pre's?

I have never used the 8MX2... the only ATI consoles I have used are the
modular rackmount thing. I have trouble putting ATI and "budget" in the
same sentence, though this does look like it's the cheapest of the ATI
configurations.

My worry about something like that is that the user interface for the
mixing is kind of doubtful.... no worse than the Millennia mixer, but
still pretty small and cramped.

As I Iook at the Crest, It seems just a little small for me to use as
my basic mixer. Am I wrong - it seems to only have direct outs on the
first 12 mic channels? I typically use 20 or 21 channels (with mic
pres, and various monitoring). There's no room to grow with this
board.

Take the insert outputs, then.

But, if I'm not using the mic pre's for most of the recording - then
the Crest would be perfect.

The thing about the ATI is that once you're in that range of equipment,
you will have no problem getting a unit for auditioning from a legitimate
dealer. Call someone like Mercenary or the like and see if you can just
get something for a couple weeks to try. Either you'll like it or not.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ken Winokur]

The thing about the ATI is that once you're in that range of equipment,
you will have no problem getting a unit for auditioning from a legitimate
dealer. *Call someone like Mercenary or the like and see if you can just
get something for a couple weeks to try. *Either you'll like it or not.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Yes, my use of the term "Budget" was probably a bad one. That said, 8
channels of something really great like the ATI, is still quite a good
deal compared to 8 channels of Great River or Millennia, and hardly
more than 8 channels of something like the RNP. As I said, I'm
planning to spend what I need to to get a really good recording set
up. Obviously, it would be good to do it as cheaply as possible.

We're very well set up in Boston for great places to buy high end
equipment - Mercenary, Parson's Audio (where I've bought most of my
gear for the last decade) and Professional Audio Design. But I am
very reluctant to take advantage of the great service and knowledge of
these dealers, unless I'm really intending to go ahead and buy from
them. I have been looking at used equipment - and there do seem to be
some great deals out there (I just saw a True precision 8 go for less
than $1000).

I'm in no hurry to make this jump (my studio isn't going to be built
for more than a year). I'll take my time, check out equipment at
various stores, borrow what I can from friends or dealers, and
possibly just make a stab at some well regarded 2 channel pre to get
my feet wet.

This discussion has been very useful in helping focus my thinking on
what I really want my studio equipment to be. Whether I go with a
board or just mic pre's. Today, I'm thinking that I'll fix up the
equipment I have, add 8 - 16 channels of excellent pre's, and work
with that for a while. If, when the studio is done, I decide to pare
down the size of the console from the Ghost to something small (Crest)
or just to a boardless setup - I can sell the Ghost (which will be in
more usable and saleable condition after cleaning and repairs).

Thanks for all the help. This group is a wealth of information (and
surprisingly little attitude and B.S.).

[Ken Winokur]

Today was a big day for my studio - I got 6 Realtrap - Mini Traps. I
got them off Craig's list (for $75 each - painted black, but still
pretty nice).

Sorry Ethan - I feel I owe you a royalty. Although I should say, I've
been meaning to build your design (which you so generously put up on
the web), but never got to it.

How about if I start sending you DVDs of our silent film scores as
recompense for your work?

Best,

Ken Winokur
Alloy Orchestra
alloyorchestra.com