[Frank[_9_]]

I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large room
with high ceiling and lots of echo. I have a Marantz digital
recorder. Do you think I can get decent recordings with that? Which
mics would you recommend (moderate budget). Thanks.

[hank alrich]

Frank wrote:

I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large room
with high ceiling and lots of echo. I have a Marantz digital
recorder. Do you think I can get decent recordings with that? Which
mics would you recommend (moderate budget). Thanks.

Does the Marantz have built-in mics?

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[Frank[_9_]]

On Feb 21, 1:34*am, (hank alrich) wrote:
Frank wrote:
I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large room
with high ceiling and lots of echo. *I have a Marantz digital
recorder. *Do you think I can get decent recordings with that? *Which
mics would you recommend (moderate budget). *Thanks.

Does the Marantz have built-in mics?

--
shut up and play your guitar *http://hankalrich.com/http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.htmlhttp://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidriAlrichwithDougHarman

Yes but I don't think they are that good and not much separation. It
does have phantom power.

[Scott Dorsey]

Frank wrote:
I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large room
with high ceiling and lots of echo. I have a Marantz digital
recorder. Do you think I can get decent recordings with that? Which
mics would you recommend (moderate budget). Thanks.

What is a moderate budget?

Is a Schoeps a moderate budget? Or is an Oktava 012 a moderate budget?
How about an A-T 4053?

My inclination is to think that if you have audible discrete echos in the
room that you're going to have trouble no matter what mikes you use, but
some of it might depend on where those echoes are coming from. You want
a nice slow reverb with the note tailing out after a couple seconds, but
without any audible slap echos or flutters.

A figure-8 mike can be a useful tool to deal with bad rooms.

My inclination, though, is to suggest trying an ORTF configuration with
a pair of hypercardioids, since it's one of the harder configurations to
screw up placement with.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

On 2/20/2011 8:45 PM, Frank wrote:
I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large room
with high ceiling and lots of echo. I have a Marantz digital
recorder. Do you think I can get decent recordings with that?

I think you can get a better or worse recording depending on
where you place the mics. And what's better or worse depends
on what kind of sound you want from the piano and what kind
of music you're playing, and for whom.

Which mics would you recommend (moderate budget).

If this is one of the Marantz handheld recorders, I'd start
with its built-in mics. Generally the mics on those
recorders (any brand - I have no specific experience with
Marantz models) do a fairly good job, though of course you
can do better. But it can be a good learning tool.

If you don't already have one, get yourself a sturdy boom
stand that's tall enough to get the mic up at least six feet
above the piano. You may not need it that high to get the
type of sound you want, but you might. The idea is to spend
some time - several hours - moving the mic around and
listening to what it sounds like in each position that you try.

Make some recordings with the mic in the position or
positions that sound best to you, and study them to decide
what you could do to make them sound better. You may find
that you have a perfectly usable recording. I suspect that
before you can get a significant improvement, you'd probably
need to spend $1000 or so on mics.

A couple of $200 mics would give you more flexibility in
placement - you could get a close-in-low-and-high
perspective that you can't get with the fixed stereo pickup
that you have with the mics built into the recorder, and for
some applications, that's what you want - like maybe for
backing up a pop singer. But for solo classical or jazz
recording, single point stereo tends to be the general
preference.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[hank alrich]

Frank wrote:

On Feb 21, 1:34 am, (hank alrich) wrote:
Frank wrote:
I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large room
with high ceiling and lots of echo. I have a Marantz digital
recorder. Do you think I can get decent recordings with that? Which
mics would you recommend (moderate budget). Thanks.

Does the Marantz have built-in mics?

Yes but I don't think they are that good and not much separation. It
does have phantom power.

But you have tired it, yes?

One thing that you can use it for is to experiment with and learn about
microphone placement within the room and in relation to the piano.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[William Sommerwerck]

I am looking to record my 6'3" grand piano which is
in a large room with high ceiling and lots of echo.

Oh... My... God...

Piano is one of the most-difficult instruments to record -- and that's under
good conditions. In a large, reverberant room you're asking for trouble.

I would think about greatly reducing the reverb before even thinking about
making a recording.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Frank wrote:

I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large room
with high ceiling and lots of echo.

You piano and your music room. Fix the room if it has a problem, it need not
be costly to so do. But is it reverberant or echoic? - if it has flutter
echo, you must do something - quite possibly not a lot, but a bit.

I have a Marantz digital
recorder. Do you think I can get decent recordings with that?

A Marantz ... that is a loose definition, but yes.

Which mics would you recommend (moderate budget).

Is it a good piano, is it sharp or is it mellow.

What is the intended use of the recording?

What's a moderate budget? - is it MCA SP1 sized? - go for them then and
deploy a la ORTF, with moderate undefined that probably is where we are.
Another MXL option would be the 603, but it may be a bit sharp as I recall a
spec sheet I saw once upon a time, if it is a Steinway you may be better off
with a matched pair of Røde NT5 or simply a NT4. You can equalize your way
out of trouble in case you have a sharp mic and a sharp piano, but not
having trouble is better.

Omni's have some merit in a concert grand contex because of their inherently
fuller bass range, a pair of Behringer measurement mics may be an OK tool to
learn to deploy omnis, A-B with 45 to 64 centimeters between capsules is a
likely good first bet, 30 centimeters may do fine if you are close to the
instrument, close == less than 6 feet but more than 3. Less than 3 == in all
likelyhood too close. Start at 8 feet, reasonably elevated but not above the
continuation of the lid.

Your recorder may be fint, but with most you may consider an external mic
pre, say a RNP or a Symetrix 302. Other people may have other
suggestestions, even some that are better, but your recorder may have an
input stage that sounds a lot cleaner with 8 dB gain than with 30 dB gain.

Allow time to learn to mic an instrument in a room. Not to dissuade you,
that is just how it is - yes ... a pair of cardioids or hypercardioid are
likely to give you usable results, but there WILL be a learning curve, allow
yourself at least some time to understand what real stereo is.

Learn what happens with the stereo spread and continuity across the center
when you vary the distance and angle between capsules. Some headphones are
usable and some aren't, I seem to get good results when I evaluate stereo
imaging from a mic pair on the cheap version of the HD25 from Sennheiser,
but you may be better off listening via a good stereophonic loudspeaker
setup.

Btw. based on specs only a pair of MXL V67N may be of interest, perhaps
someone out there has experience with it, at a glance it appears to come
with an omni and a cardioid capsule.

Thanks.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

I am looking to record my 6'3" grand piano which is
in a large room with high ceiling and lots of echo.

Oh... My... God...

Piano is one of the most-difficult instruments to record -- and
that's under good conditions. In a large, reverberant room you're
asking for trouble.

No. I do a lot of recording in such rooms, as long as they sound nice they
are OK, ie. reverberant GOOOD, echoic BAAAD.

I would think about greatly reducing the reverb before even thinking
about making a recording.

Reminds me that musical genre also was left undefined, I assumed classical.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Luxey]

On 21 феб, 08:46, Frank wrote:
On Feb 21, 1:34Â*am, (hank alrich) wrote:

Frank wrote:
I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large room
with high ceiling and lots of echo. Â*I have a Marantz digital
recorder. Â*Do you think I can get decent recordings with that? Â*Which
mics would you recommend (moderate budget). Â*Thanks.

Does the Marantz have built-in mics?

--
shut up and play your guitar *http://hankalrich.com/http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'sliste...

Yes but I don't think they are that good and not much separation. It
does have phantom power.

Built in mics will be good enough. After all, you,re not recording
foor Deutchegramophon production, or something.
Have someone play the piano while you walk arround the room, puting
your head in corners, even under pianoitself.
There where it sounds the best, for you, there you,d put the mic. Good
idea is to plug headphones in your recorder
and listen from mics

[Frank[_9_]]

On Feb 21, 2:00Â*pm, Luxey wrote:
On 21 феб, 08:46, Frank wrote:

On Feb 21, 1:34Â*am, (hank alrich) wrote:

Frank wrote:
I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large room
with high ceiling and lots of echo. Â*I have a Marantz digital
recorder. Â*Do you think I can get decent recordings with that? Â*Which
mics would you recommend (moderate budget). Â*Thanks.

Does the Marantz have built-in mics?

--
shut up and play your guitar *http://hankalrich.com/http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'sliste...

Yes but I don't think they are that good and not much separation. It
does have phantom power.

Built in mics will be good enough. After all, you,re not recording
foor Deutchegramophon production, or something.
Have someone play the piano while you walk arround the room, puting
your head in corners, even under pianoitself.
There where it sounds the best, for you, there you,d put the mic. Good
idea is to plug headphones in your recorder
and listen from mics

Wow thank you all for all your input. Clarifications:
Reverb not echo
Classical piano- Rachmaninov, Chopin, Liszt, Beethoven, Currently
recording an audition for a piano competition. The piano is not too
bright and not too mellow (have spent a lot of time having it voiced.

Budget?- I'm thinking Octava 012's plugged into my Marantz.
Sorry but I'm a newbie- what is ORTF configuration?

[[email protected]]

On 2011-02-21 (hankalrich) said:
I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large
room with high ceiling and lots of echo. I have a Marantz
digital recorder. Do you think I can get decent recordings
with that? Which mics would you recommend (moderate budget).
Thanks.
Does the Marantz have built-in mics?
Yes but I don't think they are that good and not much separation.
It does have phantom power.
But you have tired it, yes?
One thing that you can use it for is to experiment with and learn
about microphone placement within the room and in relation to the
piano.

There's a very important point for you. FInd the sweet spot
and learn some things in the process about how your piano
and the room interact, and use what you learn to determine
what technique you can use best and what tools to implement
it. After all, the media's cheap, if you don't like what
you got don't keep it, or keep a bit of it for later
comparison with others. I'm assuming this is going to be
one person always playing that piano and always in that
space. YOu may as well experiment a bit.




Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[Luxey]

On 21 феб, 23:24, Frank wrote:
On Feb 21, 2:00Â*pm, Luxey wrote:





On 21 феб, 08:46, Frank wrote:

On Feb 21, 1:34Â*am, (hank alrich) wrote:

Frank wrote:
I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large room
with high ceiling and lots of echo. Â*I have a Marantz digital
recorder. Â*Do you think I can get decent recordings with that? Â*Which
mics would you recommend (moderate budget). Â*Thanks.

Does the Marantz have built-in mics?

--
shut up and play your guitar *http://hankalrich.com/http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'sliste...

Yes but I don't think they are that good and not much separation. It
does have phantom power.

Built in mics will be good enough. After all, you,re not recording
foor Deutchegramophon production, or something.
Have someone play the piano while you walk arround the room, puting
your head in corners, even under pianoitself.
There where it sounds the best, for you, there you,d put the mic. Good
idea is to plug headphones in your recorder
and listen from mics

Wow thank you all for all your input. Â*Clarifications:
Reverb not echo
Classical piano- Rachmaninov, Chopin, Liszt, Beethoven, Currently
recording an audition for a piano competition. Â*The piano is not too
bright and not too mellow (have spent a lot of time having it voiced.

Budget?- I'm thinking Octava 012's plugged into my Marantz.
Sorry but I'm a newbie- what is ORTF configuration?- Сакриј наведени тек�т -

- Прикажи тек�т између наводника -

If you do that, buy Octavas, please record 2 takes, one with built
ins, other with
Octavas, then report if ther's a difference of $500 (?).
Unless you are going into recording business buying mics is a waste of
money,
OOH, If it's to make you feel better, go and buy.
Money is your only if you spend it, afterall.

[PStamler]

ORTF configuration:

With cardioid capsules: place the mics with their capsules 7" apart,
angled outwards so that each is 55 degrees from the center line, for a
total angle between the mics of 110 degrees. Run the left-pointing mic
into the left channel, the right-pointing mic into the right channel;
if there are panpots on whatever you use to record, pan them hard left
and right.

Place the array so that the center line points at what you're
recording. A good way to find the right spot is to stick a finger into
one ear and walk around the room while the instrument is being played
(you'll need a confederate to play, of course). Where it sounds right
in your one open ear, put the mics.

ORTF is a broadly-useful technique. With hypercardioid mics, use a 90
degree angle instead of 110 degrees.

The Oktava capsules tend toward wideness; their "hypercardioid" is
closer to real cardioid, while the "cardioid" is really "wide-
cardioid". I prefer the hypercardioid, not least because the frequency
response is flatter. Get them from www.oktava.com, not your local big-
box music store; the latter carries Oktava mics that didn't pass QC
tests.

With piano, some form of shock mounting may not be amiss. My Oktavas
like Electro-Voice elastic shock-mounts. If you can't find those,
putting a tripod mic stand on foam blocks can help.

Peace,
Paul

[Mark]

On Feb 21, 7:40*pm, PStamler wrote:
ORTF configuration:

With cardioid capsules: place the mics with their capsules 7" apart,
angled outwards so that each is 55 degrees from the center line, for a
total angle between the mics of 110 degrees. Run the left-pointing mic
into the left channel, the right-pointing mic into the right channel;
if there are panpots on whatever you use to record, pan them hard left
and right.

Place the array so that the center line points at what you're
recording. A good way to find the right spot is to stick a finger into
one ear and walk around the room while the instrument is being played
(you'll need a confederate to play, of course). Where it sounds right
in your one open ear, put the mics.

ORTF is a broadly-useful technique. With hypercardioid mics, use a 90
degree angle instead of 110 degrees.

The Oktava capsules tend toward wideness; their "hypercardioid" is
closer to real cardioid, while the "cardioid" is really "wide-
cardioid". I prefer the hypercardioid, not least because the frequency
response is flatter. Get them fromwww.oktava.com, not your local big-
box music store; the latter carries Oktava mics that didn't pass QC
tests.

With piano, some form of shock mounting may not be amiss. My Oktavas
like Electro-Voice elastic shock-mounts. If you can't find those,
putting a tripod mic stand on foam blocks can help.

Peace,
Paul

well here's a different suggestion..

invest in a pair of high isolation headphones, plug them into the
recorder and have someone else play while you listen in real time and
move the mics around. real time feedback (not the bad kind) can be
very instructive..

Mark

[Scott Dorsey]

Mark wrote:
well here's a different suggestion..

invest in a pair of high isolation headphones, plug them into the
recorder and have someone else play while you listen in real time and
move the mics around. real time feedback (not the bad kind) can be
very instructive..

No, no. Definitely don't do this. Judging imaging on headphones is
always very problematic. You're better off even with a pair of pretty
crappy speakers than with headphones, because much of what you are judging
is the balance between direct and ambient sound and the width of the stereo
image.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[William Sommerwerck]

invest in a pair of high isolation headphones, plug them into
the recorder and have someone else play while you listen
in real time and move the mics around. real time feedback
(not the bad kind) can be very instructive..

No, no. Definitely don't do this. Judging imaging on headphones is
always very problematic. You're better off even with a pair of pretty
crappy speakers than with headphones, because much of what you
are judging is the balance between direct and ambient sound and
the width of the stereo image.

Though this is theoretically true, in practice I found that if I adjusted
the mics for an overly broad and spacious image through the headphones, the
sound through speakers was usually okay.

Of course, if you can set up speakers in another room, and someone else can
play the piano while you listen...

[Frank[_9_]]

On Feb 21, 9:32*pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
invest in a pair of high isolation headphones, plug them into
the recorder and have someone else play while you listen
in real time and move the mics around. real time feedback
(not the bad kind) can be very instructive..
No, no. *Definitely don't do this. *Judging imaging on headphones is
always very problematic. *You're better off even with a pair of pretty
crappy speakers than with headphones, because much of what you
are judging is the balance between direct and ambient sound and
the width of the stereo image.

Though this is theoretically true, in practice I found that if I adjusted
the mics for an overly broad and spacious image through the headphones, the
sound through speakers was usually okay.

Of course, if you can set up speakers in another room, and someone else can
play the piano while you listen...

Again, thank you all. I think you convinced me to try with the built-
in mics

[hank alrich]

Frank wrote:

On Feb 21, 9:32 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
invest in a pair of high isolation headphones, plug them into
the recorder and have someone else play while you listen
in real time and move the mics around. real time feedback
(not the bad kind) can be very instructive..
No, no. Definitely don't do this. Judging imaging on headphones is
always very problematic. You're better off even with a pair of pretty
crappy speakers than with headphones, because much of what you
are judging is the balance between direct and ambient sound and
the width of the stereo image.

Though this is theoretically true, in practice I found that if I adjusted
the mics for an overly broad and spacious image through the headphones, the
sound through speakers was usually okay.

Of course, if you can set up speakers in another room, and someone else can
play the piano while you listen...

Again, thank you all. I think you convinced me to try with the built-
in mics

If nothing else, Frank, it will give you some practice at placing mics
and you will become more familiar with the issues of direct and ambient
sound, etc. You have nothing to lose by starting there, and everything
to gain.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[Scott Dorsey]

Frank wrote:
Reverb not echo

Make sure of that. Close your eyes. Stick a finger in one ear, walk around
and listen with just one ear. Listen to the room and to the piano, and how
they balance with one another.

Classical piano- Rachmaninov, Chopin, Liszt, Beethoven, Currently
recording an audition for a piano competition. The piano is not too
bright and not too mellow (have spent a lot of time having it voiced.

How you balance the room might differ a lot between an intimate Chopin
piece where you might want to be dry, or later Beethoven where you might
want a different sound character to the room.

Budget?- I'm thinking Octava 012's plugged into my Marantz.

You could do worse. I'd suggest getting the hypercardioid capsules if you
have a choice.

Sorry but I'm a newbie- what is ORTF configuration?

It is a standard stereo miking configuration using cardioid mikes that
are separated by about the width of a head, and cocked outward to give
amplitude directionality as well. It's discussed briefly in the FAQ for
this group.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[polymod]

"Frank" wrote in message
...
I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large room
with high ceiling and lots of echo. I have a Marantz digital
recorder. Do you think I can get decent recordings with that? Which
mics would you recommend (moderate budget). Thanks.

In addition to the advice offered here, I'd also point out that the piano
will sound a bit different when it's top lid completely removed.


Poly

[Richard Kuschel]

On Feb 22, 9:37*am, "polymod" wrote:
"Frank" wrote in message

...

I am looking to record my 6'3 grand piano which is in a large room
with high ceiling and lots of echo. *I have a Marantz digital
recorder. *Do you think I can get decent recordings with that? *Which
mics would you recommend (moderate budget). *Thanks.

In addition to the advice offered here, I'd also point out that the piano
will sound a bit different when it's top lid completely removed.

Poly

If removing the lid is not an option (I like the sound with lid
removed. It tends to be more even) then extending the stick using
another piece of wood and gaff tape until the lid is almost vertical
is a reasonable substitute.

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

Scott Dorsey writes:

snip

Sorry but I'm a newbie- what is ORTF configuration?

It is a standard stereo miking configuration using cardioid mikes
that are separated by about the width of a head, and cocked outward
to give amplitude directionality as well. It's discussed briefly in
the FAQ for this group.

INdeed it is, among many other things Frank might want to
check out there, as well as other newcomers, and some not so new.

IN addition, iirc Paul posted a good description of it some
time in the previous 24 hours as well.
YEp, was Paul STamler, this thread.

Regards,
Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[Frank[_9_]]

On Feb 22, 4:50*pm,
(Richard Webb) wrote:
Scott Dorsey writes:

snip

Sorry but I'm a newbie- what is ORTF configuration?
It is a standard stereo miking configuration using cardioid mikes
that are separated by about the width of a head, and cocked outward
to give amplitude directionality as well. *It's discussed briefly in
the FAQ for this group.

INdeed it is, among many other things Frank might want to
check out there, as well as other newcomers, and some not so new.

IN addition, iirc Paul posted a good description of it some
time in the previous 24 hours as well.
YEp, was Paul STamler, this thread.

Regards,
* * * * * *Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

Again, thank you everyone. I will be recording in the next few days
and I appreciate all of your input.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mark" wrote in message


well here's a different suggestion..

invest in a pair of high isolation headphones, plug them
into the recorder and have someone else play while you
listen in real time and move the mics around. real time
feedback (not the bad kind) can be very instructive..

The important point here is that it is very difficult to get enough
isolation, particularly at low frequencies, to avoid making bass-shy
recordings due to feed-through of bass from the live performance. I have
pretty fair luck with good IEMs, but I know of no headphones, even those
that are advertised to have exceptionally high isolation, that are actually
good enough.

I generally initially survey recording sites with my ears, or one ear
blocked if I can get time during a rehearsal.

Listening to your recordings after the live music stops playing can be
instructive for putting the final touches onto the recording.

The best sounding high-isolation headphones I've personally experienced are
the Sennheiser HD 280s. There are headphones with more isolation but they
don't sound as good to me. The widely-used Sony 7506 have such poor
isolation that I put them in the same category as open-air designs like the
Sennheiser HD 580-600.

That all said, one of the canonical recording/live sound skills is
translation - knowing what a recording or console feed needs to sound like
when you make it, so that it will sound as desired when it is heard by the
end user.

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

Mark wrote:
well here's a different suggestion..

invest in a pair of high isolation headphones, plug them
into the recorder and have someone else play while you
listen in real time and move the mics around. real time
feedback (not the bad kind) can be very instructive..

No, no. Definitely don't do this. Judging imaging on
headphones is always very problematic. You're better off
even with a pair of pretty crappy speakers than with
headphones, because much of what you are judging is the
balance between direct and ambient sound and the width of
the stereo image. --scott

I'm sticking to what I just posted - one of the canonical skills of
recording and live sound is translation, which is the art of knowing what
things need to sound like on your monitoring device whatever it is, so that
it will sound as desired to the end user. That allows the use of headphones
as effective tools, by means of mental translation.

[Arny Krueger]

"Frank" wrote in message


Again, thank you all. I think you convinced me to try
with the built- in mics

I think that built-in mics are a good starting point if this is your first
go-round with audio recording. I've done some pretty good sound for videos
of inteviews using a Microtrack and the mics that come with it. But even
MCA SP-1s are a fantastic upgrade. The key is asessing the limitations of
what you have before you upgrade instead of upgrading blindly.

[gjsmo]

I like to point out (with caution - I'm hardly a pro) that stereo is
not extremely important with a piano. In most classical concert
settings, stereo is imperceptible (partly due to the positioning of
the piano). A decreased stereo width wouldn't be that bad. In fact,
mono wouldn't be that bad. Even though you said you wouldn't be
purchasing mics, if you're only recording piano, 1 good mic will
probably sound better that 2 mediocre mics.

Just my 2 cents. Bring on the criticism.

[William Sommerwerck]

gjsmo" wrote in message
...

I like to point out (with caution - I'm hardly a pro) that stereo is
not extremely important with a piano. In most classical concert
settings, stereo is imperceptible (partly due to the positioning of
the piano). A decreased stereo width wouldn't be that bad. In fact,
mono wouldn't be that bad. Even though you said you wouldn't be
purchasing mics, if you're only recording piano, 1 good mic will
probably sound better that 2 mediocre mics.

Just my 2 cents. Bring on the criticism.

Sometime, somewhere, somebody (a recording engineer, I believe) said that
pianos were better-recorded in mono. I don't remember the reason.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

gjsmo wrote:

I like to point out (with caution - I'm hardly a pro) that stereo is
not extremely important with a piano. In most classical concert
settings, stereo is imperceptible (partly due to the positioning of
the piano). A decreased stereo width wouldn't be that bad. In fact,
mono wouldn't be that bad. Even though you said you wouldn't be
purchasing mics, if you're only recording piano, 1 good mic will
probably sound better that 2 mediocre mics.

Just my 2 cents. Bring on the criticism.

OK: the room should extend from left to right with precise center image and
good depth, the piano should be located in the room and have a reasonable
width that complies with the actual listening experience.

To get a proper balance between direct and reflected - Bose was right, but
wrong in thinking that recordings can be fixed with fuzzyvox speakers - it
may be required to move so close that the piane becomes too wide with the
standard ORTF angles. 60 to 90 degrees work better for me. Think in terms of
correlation and decorrelation, to decorrelated == hole in the middle. I find
it extremely annoying if the space splits up in tail behind each loudspeaker
.... and that is what will happen with to much decorrelation.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

gjsmo" wrote in message
...

I like to point out (with caution - I'm hardly a pro) that stereo is
not extremely important with a piano. In most classical concert
settings, stereo is imperceptible (partly due to the positioning of
the piano). A decreased stereo width wouldn't be that bad. In fact,
mono wouldn't be that bad. Even though you said you wouldn't be
purchasing mics, if you're only recording piano, 1 good mic will
probably sound better that 2 mediocre mics.

Just my 2 cents. Bring on the criticism.

Sometime, somewhere, somebody (a recording engineer, I believe) said
that pianos were better-recorded in mono. I don't remember the reason.

In case of a support need - ie. supporting a main pair - one mic is all that
is required for valid stereo, using a close pair would create twice as many
problems for the overall perspective.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[vdubreeze]

There's been much discussion about mics and whatnot, but I'm of the
opinion that after you've had someone play and walked around the room
listening for a sweet spot, bring in some furniture and do it again.
Maybe a few small blankets lightly draped on music stands or mic
stands. Not to make a dead room but just to see if that by taming
some of the reflections you get a less mushy recording with less
effort on the recording end. A listener in a lively room is way more
forgiving a reverberations and reflections because they can perceive
much of the space from which they arrive, which is not at the piano.
On a recording we only have the two channels, so as recordists we have
to figure out a way to achieve that pleasantness when all of the
sounds, the piano and the room, are all coming from the same plane
just left and right.


I ALWAYS find that recording a piano in someone's piano room in their
home benefits from some of that. If it's the kind of room I usually
run into (spacious or at least open feeling, lots of wood) it's the
first thing I think of for a solo recording that's showing off the
player and not the room. Not to automatically do it, but to
immediately suss it out to consider it before doing anything else.
Anyway, to me it's kind of fun to do, and can make the recording much
less of a wrestling match.

Have fun : )

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

vdubreeze wrote:

On a recording we only have the two channels, so as recordists we have
to figure out a way to achieve that pleasantness when all of the
sounds, the piano and the room, are all coming from the same plane
just left and right.

We have a different experience of what stereo is about.

The most import place to put absorbers is btw. on the floor directly under
the mic position, the next most important place is the ceiling directly
above it.

Have fun : )

+1

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[vdubreeze]

On Feb 23, 12:41*pm, "Peter Larsen" wrote:
vdubreeze wrote:
On a recording we only have the two channels, so as recordists we have
to figure out a way to achieve that pleasantness when all of the
sounds, the piano and the room, are all coming from the same plane
just left and right.

We have a different experience of what stereo is about.

Yeah, that was a bit of an oversimplification. : ) Not a single
plane. I was trying to convey that what our heads hear and easily
sort out is different from what ends up as a stereo recording with
even the best mics. Our ears/brain can sort out certain information
live that in a recording isn't as sorted out. Such as a factor in the
room that we can pay little attention to because it's behind us or
above us while the piano is in front of us, for example.

Also, I think everyone's first thought when walking into the room of
their first piano recording is "Wow. Sounds huge out here! Let's put
the mic back here in the room." And then often after listening back
it's "Hmm. We should move the mic closer in a bit" : ) There are
many things, including visual, that help our senses and enhance our
live listening experience that don't make it to the recording. So
sometimes a bit of fudging with the set up makes the recording more
presentable. Well, you know that : ) but it's aimed at the OP
because it makes recording easier no matter what equipment you go
with. And I think for casual or beginning recordists that aspect is
often thought of as what you do when you're already recording and it's
having problems, so then you start looking at the room as if armed
with a box of bandaids because the patient has begun complaining.

The most import place to put absorbers is btw. on the floor directly under
the mic position, the next most important place is the ceiling directly
above it.

Excellent advice. And it may be all that's needed.

Have fun *: )

+1


If it's fun it will be a better recording! : ) Or at least avoid
the reverse where it's so not fun that you bag it before getting it
down.


v