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#41
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Subwoofer Output Question
Lucy Explainin wrote: "citronzx" wrote in message link.net... "A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is not even at a level that you consider loud enough". Not. Clipping involves (as you describe) a squaring off of the wave, or a leading positive and negative DC edge. This WILL cause damage to a loudspeaker in the form of damage to the voicecoil - and it won't take long to manifest itself. For this very reason it is SAFER to overdrive a small loudspeaker with a big amp and keeping the signal clean and non clipped. Oh dear. |
#42
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Subwoofer Output Question
"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ... "citronzx" wrote in message hlink.net... "I'm not sure why you think that a square wave will do damage to a speaker but you are wrong." If you say so - (the square peak of a clipped signal being a DC component running on an essentially AC voice coil.) But hey - you know best - they just like to add clip lights to amplifiers for decoration :-) Look, you don't have to take my word for it, read the other replies too. |
#43
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Subwoofer Output Question
"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ... "citronzx" wrote in message hlink.net... "I'm not sure why you think that a square wave will do damage to a speaker but you are wrong." If you say so - (the square peak of a clipped signal being a DC component running on an essentially AC voice coil.) But hey - you know best - they just like to add clip lights to amplifiers for decoration :-) Look, you don't have to take my word for it, read the other replies too. |
#44
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Subwoofer Output Question
"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ... "citronzx" wrote in message hlink.net... "I'm not sure why you think that a square wave will do damage to a speaker but you are wrong." If you say so - (the square peak of a clipped signal being a DC component running on an essentially AC voice coil.) But hey - you know best - they just like to add clip lights to amplifiers for decoration :-) Look, you don't have to take my word for it, read the other replies too. |
#45
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Subwoofer Output Question
"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ... "citronzx" wrote in message hlink.net... "I'm not sure why you think that a square wave will do damage to a speaker but you are wrong." If you say so - (the square peak of a clipped signal being a DC component running on an essentially AC voice coil.) But hey - you know best - they just like to add clip lights to amplifiers for decoration :-) Look, you don't have to take my word for it, read the other replies too. |
#46
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Subwoofer Output Question
"sk8erteck" wrote in message ...
(this might be a repost, it never showed up on my ISP's server) Alright i know that clipping is bad and such, but my subwoofer amp is constantly clipping and not distorting at all. It isn't even enough to trigger the 'warning' light on the woofer. When I put the amp in bridged mode and turn the gain down, the amp doesn't clip but i get distortion and the warning light on the woofer turns on. The only way to reduce this is to turn the gain way down, to levels that are not anywhere near enough or near where it was before the bridge. I've been running it unbridged with the clipping for about 2 weeks, is this bad? Why is it clipping but sounding fine? Why does it not sound fine in bridge mode? Am i damaging the woofer/amp? Here's what i am working withnot great but it was provided with the gig) B-52 Band-Pass Subwooofer rated 550 watts Behringer EP1500, rated 260watts at 8ohms in stereo mode, 800 watts in bridged mono Highs + Mids are on another EP1500 hooked up to Peaveys, but that setup seems to be working fine. As of now there is no crossover, I have the subwooferamp running off of the booth output of my mixer. A behringer crossover(i cant remember the model off the top of my head) has been ordered and should be in this week. I'd estimate that the woofer is pushing 250+ watts in stereo mode, but only about 100 in bridged mono without distorting. Since it is rated 550, how can I get more out of it? thanks in advance Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right? First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP. Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around, run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass, and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so many ways to change the level on the mixer... Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down. Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub. So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high. But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you have one of two problems: 1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel. Or more likely: 2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp (it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly. Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2. The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is usually about the same in both channels. Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0, bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then the amp is screwed up somehow. Let us know what happens. Good luck. -Ben |
#47
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Subwoofer Output Question
"sk8erteck" wrote in message ...
(this might be a repost, it never showed up on my ISP's server) Alright i know that clipping is bad and such, but my subwoofer amp is constantly clipping and not distorting at all. It isn't even enough to trigger the 'warning' light on the woofer. When I put the amp in bridged mode and turn the gain down, the amp doesn't clip but i get distortion and the warning light on the woofer turns on. The only way to reduce this is to turn the gain way down, to levels that are not anywhere near enough or near where it was before the bridge. I've been running it unbridged with the clipping for about 2 weeks, is this bad? Why is it clipping but sounding fine? Why does it not sound fine in bridge mode? Am i damaging the woofer/amp? Here's what i am working withnot great but it was provided with the gig) B-52 Band-Pass Subwooofer rated 550 watts Behringer EP1500, rated 260watts at 8ohms in stereo mode, 800 watts in bridged mono Highs + Mids are on another EP1500 hooked up to Peaveys, but that setup seems to be working fine. As of now there is no crossover, I have the subwooferamp running off of the booth output of my mixer. A behringer crossover(i cant remember the model off the top of my head) has been ordered and should be in this week. I'd estimate that the woofer is pushing 250+ watts in stereo mode, but only about 100 in bridged mono without distorting. Since it is rated 550, how can I get more out of it? thanks in advance Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right? First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP. Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around, run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass, and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so many ways to change the level on the mixer... Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down. Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub. So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high. But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you have one of two problems: 1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel. Or more likely: 2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp (it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly. Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2. The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is usually about the same in both channels. Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0, bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then the amp is screwed up somehow. Let us know what happens. Good luck. -Ben |
#48
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Subwoofer Output Question
"sk8erteck" wrote in message ...
(this might be a repost, it never showed up on my ISP's server) Alright i know that clipping is bad and such, but my subwoofer amp is constantly clipping and not distorting at all. It isn't even enough to trigger the 'warning' light on the woofer. When I put the amp in bridged mode and turn the gain down, the amp doesn't clip but i get distortion and the warning light on the woofer turns on. The only way to reduce this is to turn the gain way down, to levels that are not anywhere near enough or near where it was before the bridge. I've been running it unbridged with the clipping for about 2 weeks, is this bad? Why is it clipping but sounding fine? Why does it not sound fine in bridge mode? Am i damaging the woofer/amp? Here's what i am working withnot great but it was provided with the gig) B-52 Band-Pass Subwooofer rated 550 watts Behringer EP1500, rated 260watts at 8ohms in stereo mode, 800 watts in bridged mono Highs + Mids are on another EP1500 hooked up to Peaveys, but that setup seems to be working fine. As of now there is no crossover, I have the subwooferamp running off of the booth output of my mixer. A behringer crossover(i cant remember the model off the top of my head) has been ordered and should be in this week. I'd estimate that the woofer is pushing 250+ watts in stereo mode, but only about 100 in bridged mono without distorting. Since it is rated 550, how can I get more out of it? thanks in advance Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right? First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP. Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around, run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass, and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so many ways to change the level on the mixer... Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down. Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub. So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high. But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you have one of two problems: 1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel. Or more likely: 2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp (it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly. Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2. The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is usually about the same in both channels. Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0, bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then the amp is screwed up somehow. Let us know what happens. Good luck. -Ben |
#49
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Subwoofer Output Question
"sk8erteck" wrote in message ...
(this might be a repost, it never showed up on my ISP's server) Alright i know that clipping is bad and such, but my subwoofer amp is constantly clipping and not distorting at all. It isn't even enough to trigger the 'warning' light on the woofer. When I put the amp in bridged mode and turn the gain down, the amp doesn't clip but i get distortion and the warning light on the woofer turns on. The only way to reduce this is to turn the gain way down, to levels that are not anywhere near enough or near where it was before the bridge. I've been running it unbridged with the clipping for about 2 weeks, is this bad? Why is it clipping but sounding fine? Why does it not sound fine in bridge mode? Am i damaging the woofer/amp? Here's what i am working withnot great but it was provided with the gig) B-52 Band-Pass Subwooofer rated 550 watts Behringer EP1500, rated 260watts at 8ohms in stereo mode, 800 watts in bridged mono Highs + Mids are on another EP1500 hooked up to Peaveys, but that setup seems to be working fine. As of now there is no crossover, I have the subwooferamp running off of the booth output of my mixer. A behringer crossover(i cant remember the model off the top of my head) has been ordered and should be in this week. I'd estimate that the woofer is pushing 250+ watts in stereo mode, but only about 100 in bridged mono without distorting. Since it is rated 550, how can I get more out of it? thanks in advance Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right? First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP. Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around, run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass, and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so many ways to change the level on the mixer... Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down. Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub. So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high. But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you have one of two problems: 1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel. Or more likely: 2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp (it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly. Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2. The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is usually about the same in both channels. Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0, bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then the amp is screwed up somehow. Let us know what happens. Good luck. -Ben |
#50
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Subwoofer Output Question
A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of
resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field, counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence. If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence, creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil. That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated speaker. Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil. GM "Ulrich" wrote in message ... "Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ... "citronzx" wrote in message link.net... "A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is not even at a level that you consider loud enough". Not. Clipping involves (as you describe) a squaring off of the wave, or a leading positive and negative DC edge. This WILL cause damage to a loudspeaker in the form of damage to the voicecoil - and it won't take long to manifest itself. For this very reason it is SAFER to overdrive a small loudspeaker with a big amp and keeping the signal clean and non clipped. I do not concur. Clipping isn't bad for voice coils. Being over driven is bad for voice coils. Tweeters oftten fry, in passive x-over systems, when clipping is happening. But, it's not the clipping that's doing the damage. It's simply that the bass clips first, so that excessive gain cranking leads only to an increase in wattage to the tweeters. In an active crossed system, lightly clipping the sub amps is inaudible, and perfectly OK; if you are not, as a result, overdriving your subs. Ulrich DoD#732 www.dj-ulrich.com adelphia email addy is never checked, please use URL above. |
#51
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Subwoofer Output Question
A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of
resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field, counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence. If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence, creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil. That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated speaker. Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil. GM "Ulrich" wrote in message ... "Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ... "citronzx" wrote in message link.net... "A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is not even at a level that you consider loud enough". Not. Clipping involves (as you describe) a squaring off of the wave, or a leading positive and negative DC edge. This WILL cause damage to a loudspeaker in the form of damage to the voicecoil - and it won't take long to manifest itself. For this very reason it is SAFER to overdrive a small loudspeaker with a big amp and keeping the signal clean and non clipped. I do not concur. Clipping isn't bad for voice coils. Being over driven is bad for voice coils. Tweeters oftten fry, in passive x-over systems, when clipping is happening. But, it's not the clipping that's doing the damage. It's simply that the bass clips first, so that excessive gain cranking leads only to an increase in wattage to the tweeters. In an active crossed system, lightly clipping the sub amps is inaudible, and perfectly OK; if you are not, as a result, overdriving your subs. Ulrich DoD#732 www.dj-ulrich.com adelphia email addy is never checked, please use URL above. |
#52
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Subwoofer Output Question
A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of
resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field, counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence. If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence, creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil. That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated speaker. Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil. GM "Ulrich" wrote in message ... "Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ... "citronzx" wrote in message link.net... "A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is not even at a level that you consider loud enough". Not. Clipping involves (as you describe) a squaring off of the wave, or a leading positive and negative DC edge. This WILL cause damage to a loudspeaker in the form of damage to the voicecoil - and it won't take long to manifest itself. For this very reason it is SAFER to overdrive a small loudspeaker with a big amp and keeping the signal clean and non clipped. I do not concur. Clipping isn't bad for voice coils. Being over driven is bad for voice coils. Tweeters oftten fry, in passive x-over systems, when clipping is happening. But, it's not the clipping that's doing the damage. It's simply that the bass clips first, so that excessive gain cranking leads only to an increase in wattage to the tweeters. In an active crossed system, lightly clipping the sub amps is inaudible, and perfectly OK; if you are not, as a result, overdriving your subs. Ulrich DoD#732 www.dj-ulrich.com adelphia email addy is never checked, please use URL above. |
#53
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Subwoofer Output Question
A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of
resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field, counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence. If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence, creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil. That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated speaker. Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil. GM "Ulrich" wrote in message ... "Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ... "citronzx" wrote in message link.net... "A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is not even at a level that you consider loud enough". Not. Clipping involves (as you describe) a squaring off of the wave, or a leading positive and negative DC edge. This WILL cause damage to a loudspeaker in the form of damage to the voicecoil - and it won't take long to manifest itself. For this very reason it is SAFER to overdrive a small loudspeaker with a big amp and keeping the signal clean and non clipped. I do not concur. Clipping isn't bad for voice coils. Being over driven is bad for voice coils. Tweeters oftten fry, in passive x-over systems, when clipping is happening. But, it's not the clipping that's doing the damage. It's simply that the bass clips first, so that excessive gain cranking leads only to an increase in wattage to the tweeters. In an active crossed system, lightly clipping the sub amps is inaudible, and perfectly OK; if you are not, as a result, overdriving your subs. Ulrich DoD#732 www.dj-ulrich.com adelphia email addy is never checked, please use URL above. |
#54
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Subwoofer Output Question
"G M" wrote in message ...
A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field, counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence. Nope. Typical resistance is about 3 ohms for a 4 ohm speaker and 6 ohms for a 8 ohm speaker. So 75% of its nominal impedance is the DC resistance. Furthermore, the only part of the power delivered to the speaker that turns into heat, is that dissipated in this DC resistance. If the coil had a zero ohm resistance you could not melt it (P=I*I*R). If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence, creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil. Wrong. It is not the position of the cone that is proportional to the input voltage (above the system resonance) but the cone *acceleration*. So the cone will not "stop" because the input voltage remains fixed. Not that it would matter, though. That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated speaker. Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost. This will lead to a constantly high high frequency content of the signal. This is fed to the tweeter, and the tweeter burns. In a clean signal, the high frequency content is much lower, so the power delivered to the tweeter is less, even if the total power is higher. In a 1-way system, the ONLY thing that can melt the voice coil is the power delivered into the DC resistance. Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil. Yes, it's an interesting experiment. While you do, record the current and voltage so you can figure out how much the DC resistance increases due to the increased temperature. But that is another thread. :-) |
#55
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Subwoofer Output Question
"G M" wrote in message ...
A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field, counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence. Nope. Typical resistance is about 3 ohms for a 4 ohm speaker and 6 ohms for a 8 ohm speaker. So 75% of its nominal impedance is the DC resistance. Furthermore, the only part of the power delivered to the speaker that turns into heat, is that dissipated in this DC resistance. If the coil had a zero ohm resistance you could not melt it (P=I*I*R). If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence, creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil. Wrong. It is not the position of the cone that is proportional to the input voltage (above the system resonance) but the cone *acceleration*. So the cone will not "stop" because the input voltage remains fixed. Not that it would matter, though. That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated speaker. Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost. This will lead to a constantly high high frequency content of the signal. This is fed to the tweeter, and the tweeter burns. In a clean signal, the high frequency content is much lower, so the power delivered to the tweeter is less, even if the total power is higher. In a 1-way system, the ONLY thing that can melt the voice coil is the power delivered into the DC resistance. Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil. Yes, it's an interesting experiment. While you do, record the current and voltage so you can figure out how much the DC resistance increases due to the increased temperature. But that is another thread. :-) |
#56
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Subwoofer Output Question
"G M" wrote in message ...
A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field, counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence. Nope. Typical resistance is about 3 ohms for a 4 ohm speaker and 6 ohms for a 8 ohm speaker. So 75% of its nominal impedance is the DC resistance. Furthermore, the only part of the power delivered to the speaker that turns into heat, is that dissipated in this DC resistance. If the coil had a zero ohm resistance you could not melt it (P=I*I*R). If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence, creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil. Wrong. It is not the position of the cone that is proportional to the input voltage (above the system resonance) but the cone *acceleration*. So the cone will not "stop" because the input voltage remains fixed. Not that it would matter, though. That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated speaker. Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost. This will lead to a constantly high high frequency content of the signal. This is fed to the tweeter, and the tweeter burns. In a clean signal, the high frequency content is much lower, so the power delivered to the tweeter is less, even if the total power is higher. In a 1-way system, the ONLY thing that can melt the voice coil is the power delivered into the DC resistance. Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil. Yes, it's an interesting experiment. While you do, record the current and voltage so you can figure out how much the DC resistance increases due to the increased temperature. But that is another thread. :-) |
#57
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Subwoofer Output Question
"G M" wrote in message ...
A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field, counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence. Nope. Typical resistance is about 3 ohms for a 4 ohm speaker and 6 ohms for a 8 ohm speaker. So 75% of its nominal impedance is the DC resistance. Furthermore, the only part of the power delivered to the speaker that turns into heat, is that dissipated in this DC resistance. If the coil had a zero ohm resistance you could not melt it (P=I*I*R). If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence, creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil. Wrong. It is not the position of the cone that is proportional to the input voltage (above the system resonance) but the cone *acceleration*. So the cone will not "stop" because the input voltage remains fixed. Not that it would matter, though. That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated speaker. Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost. This will lead to a constantly high high frequency content of the signal. This is fed to the tweeter, and the tweeter burns. In a clean signal, the high frequency content is much lower, so the power delivered to the tweeter is less, even if the total power is higher. In a 1-way system, the ONLY thing that can melt the voice coil is the power delivered into the DC resistance. Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil. Yes, it's an interesting experiment. While you do, record the current and voltage so you can figure out how much the DC resistance increases due to the increased temperature. But that is another thread. :-) |
#58
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Subwoofer Output Question
"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ... "G M" wrote in message .. . Thank you :-) Soft Clipping is often used in a recording stage for effect but should never find its way into high-power pa. I do so love the 'it won't do any damage' remarks. hell we add a clip light to make the amp look pretty. I've got a fasten seatbelt light on my car but it does not mean that the car will be damaged if I don't wear my belt! The belt is to protect the driver, not the car! The clipping lights are to protect the amplifier, not the speaker! I still urge you to give it a try and see that it will do no damage. I'll bet you can download software that will let you use your computer as a signal generator. Play a square wave and let it run as long as you like. Your speakers will not be damaged. |
#59
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Subwoofer Output Question
"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ... "G M" wrote in message .. . Thank you :-) Soft Clipping is often used in a recording stage for effect but should never find its way into high-power pa. I do so love the 'it won't do any damage' remarks. hell we add a clip light to make the amp look pretty. I've got a fasten seatbelt light on my car but it does not mean that the car will be damaged if I don't wear my belt! The belt is to protect the driver, not the car! The clipping lights are to protect the amplifier, not the speaker! I still urge you to give it a try and see that it will do no damage. I'll bet you can download software that will let you use your computer as a signal generator. Play a square wave and let it run as long as you like. Your speakers will not be damaged. |
#60
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Subwoofer Output Question
"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ... "G M" wrote in message .. . Thank you :-) Soft Clipping is often used in a recording stage for effect but should never find its way into high-power pa. I do so love the 'it won't do any damage' remarks. hell we add a clip light to make the amp look pretty. I've got a fasten seatbelt light on my car but it does not mean that the car will be damaged if I don't wear my belt! The belt is to protect the driver, not the car! The clipping lights are to protect the amplifier, not the speaker! I still urge you to give it a try and see that it will do no damage. I'll bet you can download software that will let you use your computer as a signal generator. Play a square wave and let it run as long as you like. Your speakers will not be damaged. |
#61
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Subwoofer Output Question
"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ... "G M" wrote in message .. . Thank you :-) Soft Clipping is often used in a recording stage for effect but should never find its way into high-power pa. I do so love the 'it won't do any damage' remarks. hell we add a clip light to make the amp look pretty. I've got a fasten seatbelt light on my car but it does not mean that the car will be damaged if I don't wear my belt! The belt is to protect the driver, not the car! The clipping lights are to protect the amplifier, not the speaker! I still urge you to give it a try and see that it will do no damage. I'll bet you can download software that will let you use your computer as a signal generator. Play a square wave and let it run as long as you like. Your speakers will not be damaged. |
#62
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Subwoofer Output Question
"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ...
"Svante" wrote in message om... "G M" wrote in message ... "Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost." So if we put a 1v 150hz sine wave with nearly no harmonics into and amplifier and then on to a speaker and push it to cliping you are saying that a bass driver will not burn its coil out - yes? Right. Unless the power amplifier delivers more RMS power than the woofer can take. (A decently spec'ed 100 W amp can deliver up to 200 W of square wave, so there is still a risk here). "and the tweeter burns." Why? If it's within it's power rating and is just getting a nasty clipped harmic top end signal why would this be so? Because in a typical loudspeaker system of say 100 watts the tweeter can only take some 10 watts or less. This balance between power handling of the parts of a loudspeaker system (woofer vs tweeter) is based on the spectral content of normal music. By overloading the amplifier the power balance is shifted towards higher frequencies and the tweeter may burn. If you browse through datasheets of tweeters, they will mostly state "maximum SYSTEM power" or similar, the actual power the tweeter can take is far less. |
#63
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Subwoofer Output Question
"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ...
"Svante" wrote in message om... "G M" wrote in message ... "Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost." So if we put a 1v 150hz sine wave with nearly no harmonics into and amplifier and then on to a speaker and push it to cliping you are saying that a bass driver will not burn its coil out - yes? Right. Unless the power amplifier delivers more RMS power than the woofer can take. (A decently spec'ed 100 W amp can deliver up to 200 W of square wave, so there is still a risk here). "and the tweeter burns." Why? If it's within it's power rating and is just getting a nasty clipped harmic top end signal why would this be so? Because in a typical loudspeaker system of say 100 watts the tweeter can only take some 10 watts or less. This balance between power handling of the parts of a loudspeaker system (woofer vs tweeter) is based on the spectral content of normal music. By overloading the amplifier the power balance is shifted towards higher frequencies and the tweeter may burn. If you browse through datasheets of tweeters, they will mostly state "maximum SYSTEM power" or similar, the actual power the tweeter can take is far less. |
#64
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Subwoofer Output Question
"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ...
"Svante" wrote in message om... "G M" wrote in message ... "Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost." So if we put a 1v 150hz sine wave with nearly no harmonics into and amplifier and then on to a speaker and push it to cliping you are saying that a bass driver will not burn its coil out - yes? Right. Unless the power amplifier delivers more RMS power than the woofer can take. (A decently spec'ed 100 W amp can deliver up to 200 W of square wave, so there is still a risk here). "and the tweeter burns." Why? If it's within it's power rating and is just getting a nasty clipped harmic top end signal why would this be so? Because in a typical loudspeaker system of say 100 watts the tweeter can only take some 10 watts or less. This balance between power handling of the parts of a loudspeaker system (woofer vs tweeter) is based on the spectral content of normal music. By overloading the amplifier the power balance is shifted towards higher frequencies and the tweeter may burn. If you browse through datasheets of tweeters, they will mostly state "maximum SYSTEM power" or similar, the actual power the tweeter can take is far less. |
#65
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Subwoofer Output Question
"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ...
"Svante" wrote in message om... "G M" wrote in message ... "Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost." So if we put a 1v 150hz sine wave with nearly no harmonics into and amplifier and then on to a speaker and push it to cliping you are saying that a bass driver will not burn its coil out - yes? Right. Unless the power amplifier delivers more RMS power than the woofer can take. (A decently spec'ed 100 W amp can deliver up to 200 W of square wave, so there is still a risk here). "and the tweeter burns." Why? If it's within it's power rating and is just getting a nasty clipped harmic top end signal why would this be so? Because in a typical loudspeaker system of say 100 watts the tweeter can only take some 10 watts or less. This balance between power handling of the parts of a loudspeaker system (woofer vs tweeter) is based on the spectral content of normal music. By overloading the amplifier the power balance is shifted towards higher frequencies and the tweeter may burn. If you browse through datasheets of tweeters, they will mostly state "maximum SYSTEM power" or similar, the actual power the tweeter can take is far less. |
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Subwoofer Output Question
Sorry about the late response, but yes I am currently driving only one sub.
There are plans to install a second, and some wiring has been installed, but it is not hooked up. When I go in Friday I'll definatly test the clip levels and let you know how it goes. As for the limiter, it cuts the bass off before it distorts, and in bridged mono I turned it on but it distorted at such a low volume anyway that it didn't matter. My crossover didn't come in today, hopefully it will arrrive before my Friday show. I am aware of the settings for bridged mode, the only thing that concerns me is that you stated that a pin needs to be moved in the speakon connectors( i am using speakon connectors btw). I'm not sure what you are reffering to, if you mean the DIP switches, i think those were moved correctly. Just to be sure, here are the switch settings i used for bridged mono: 1 - on (clip limiter on) 2 - on (30hz low cut filter) 3 - off (low cut filter on) 4 - off (stereo) 5 - off (stereo) 6 - on (bridge mode on) 7 - on (bridge mode on) 8 - off (low cut filter on ch2) 9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2) 10 - on (clip limiter ch2) Here's the settings i use for regular mode(ch2 does not matter, it isnt hooked up to anything) 1 - off (clip limiter off) 2 - on (30hz low cut filter) 3 - off (low cut filter on) 4 - off (stereo) 5 - off (stereo) 6 - off (bridge mode off) 7 - off (bridge mode off) 8 - off (low cut filter on ch2) 9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2) 10 - off (clip limiter ch2) Switching from stereo to parallel makes no difference, it just turns channel 2 input into a relay. I'm leaning towards channel 2 being blown, but since it was never used I dont understand how. The booth output of the board is being merged with a $5 adaptor from RadioShack, then fed into the subwoofer amp. This lets me have greater control of the subwoofer. I tried hooking up the subwoofer directly to the main output of the board, with and without the adaptor. There was no difference, it still had the same clipping issues in regular mode and distortion issues in bridged mode. The only thing i found was that the output was slightly louder with the adaptor, so I left it in when I put everything back together. The adaptor is a 1/4in stereo to mono headphone adaptor, and gets the job done. Also, power is not a concern, the building might be an old, rebuilt mill from the 1880's, but the club/ballroom has its own(less than three years old) transformer and utility room, with voltage monitoring and stabilizing equipment in the utility room. The only problem i've had so far is with the gym downstairs(same owner, different electrical) using the room during the day. I've had one speaker hit with a basketball and a gash in the dance floor from karate. "Ben" wrote in message m... Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right? First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP. Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around, run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass, and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so many ways to change the level on the mixer... Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down. Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub. So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high. But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you have one of two problems: 1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel. Or more likely: 2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp (it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly. Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2. The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is usually about the same in both channels. Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0, bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then the amp is screwed up somehow. Let us know what happens. Good luck. -Ben -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#67
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Subwoofer Output Question
Sorry about the late response, but yes I am currently driving only one sub.
There are plans to install a second, and some wiring has been installed, but it is not hooked up. When I go in Friday I'll definatly test the clip levels and let you know how it goes. As for the limiter, it cuts the bass off before it distorts, and in bridged mono I turned it on but it distorted at such a low volume anyway that it didn't matter. My crossover didn't come in today, hopefully it will arrrive before my Friday show. I am aware of the settings for bridged mode, the only thing that concerns me is that you stated that a pin needs to be moved in the speakon connectors( i am using speakon connectors btw). I'm not sure what you are reffering to, if you mean the DIP switches, i think those were moved correctly. Just to be sure, here are the switch settings i used for bridged mono: 1 - on (clip limiter on) 2 - on (30hz low cut filter) 3 - off (low cut filter on) 4 - off (stereo) 5 - off (stereo) 6 - on (bridge mode on) 7 - on (bridge mode on) 8 - off (low cut filter on ch2) 9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2) 10 - on (clip limiter ch2) Here's the settings i use for regular mode(ch2 does not matter, it isnt hooked up to anything) 1 - off (clip limiter off) 2 - on (30hz low cut filter) 3 - off (low cut filter on) 4 - off (stereo) 5 - off (stereo) 6 - off (bridge mode off) 7 - off (bridge mode off) 8 - off (low cut filter on ch2) 9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2) 10 - off (clip limiter ch2) Switching from stereo to parallel makes no difference, it just turns channel 2 input into a relay. I'm leaning towards channel 2 being blown, but since it was never used I dont understand how. The booth output of the board is being merged with a $5 adaptor from RadioShack, then fed into the subwoofer amp. This lets me have greater control of the subwoofer. I tried hooking up the subwoofer directly to the main output of the board, with and without the adaptor. There was no difference, it still had the same clipping issues in regular mode and distortion issues in bridged mode. The only thing i found was that the output was slightly louder with the adaptor, so I left it in when I put everything back together. The adaptor is a 1/4in stereo to mono headphone adaptor, and gets the job done. Also, power is not a concern, the building might be an old, rebuilt mill from the 1880's, but the club/ballroom has its own(less than three years old) transformer and utility room, with voltage monitoring and stabilizing equipment in the utility room. The only problem i've had so far is with the gym downstairs(same owner, different electrical) using the room during the day. I've had one speaker hit with a basketball and a gash in the dance floor from karate. "Ben" wrote in message m... Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right? First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP. Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around, run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass, and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so many ways to change the level on the mixer... Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down. Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub. So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high. But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you have one of two problems: 1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel. Or more likely: 2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp (it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly. Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2. The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is usually about the same in both channels. Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0, bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then the amp is screwed up somehow. Let us know what happens. Good luck. -Ben -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#68
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Subwoofer Output Question
Sorry about the late response, but yes I am currently driving only one sub.
There are plans to install a second, and some wiring has been installed, but it is not hooked up. When I go in Friday I'll definatly test the clip levels and let you know how it goes. As for the limiter, it cuts the bass off before it distorts, and in bridged mono I turned it on but it distorted at such a low volume anyway that it didn't matter. My crossover didn't come in today, hopefully it will arrrive before my Friday show. I am aware of the settings for bridged mode, the only thing that concerns me is that you stated that a pin needs to be moved in the speakon connectors( i am using speakon connectors btw). I'm not sure what you are reffering to, if you mean the DIP switches, i think those were moved correctly. Just to be sure, here are the switch settings i used for bridged mono: 1 - on (clip limiter on) 2 - on (30hz low cut filter) 3 - off (low cut filter on) 4 - off (stereo) 5 - off (stereo) 6 - on (bridge mode on) 7 - on (bridge mode on) 8 - off (low cut filter on ch2) 9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2) 10 - on (clip limiter ch2) Here's the settings i use for regular mode(ch2 does not matter, it isnt hooked up to anything) 1 - off (clip limiter off) 2 - on (30hz low cut filter) 3 - off (low cut filter on) 4 - off (stereo) 5 - off (stereo) 6 - off (bridge mode off) 7 - off (bridge mode off) 8 - off (low cut filter on ch2) 9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2) 10 - off (clip limiter ch2) Switching from stereo to parallel makes no difference, it just turns channel 2 input into a relay. I'm leaning towards channel 2 being blown, but since it was never used I dont understand how. The booth output of the board is being merged with a $5 adaptor from RadioShack, then fed into the subwoofer amp. This lets me have greater control of the subwoofer. I tried hooking up the subwoofer directly to the main output of the board, with and without the adaptor. There was no difference, it still had the same clipping issues in regular mode and distortion issues in bridged mode. The only thing i found was that the output was slightly louder with the adaptor, so I left it in when I put everything back together. The adaptor is a 1/4in stereo to mono headphone adaptor, and gets the job done. Also, power is not a concern, the building might be an old, rebuilt mill from the 1880's, but the club/ballroom has its own(less than three years old) transformer and utility room, with voltage monitoring and stabilizing equipment in the utility room. The only problem i've had so far is with the gym downstairs(same owner, different electrical) using the room during the day. I've had one speaker hit with a basketball and a gash in the dance floor from karate. "Ben" wrote in message m... Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right? First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP. Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around, run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass, and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so many ways to change the level on the mixer... Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down. Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub. So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high. But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you have one of two problems: 1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel. Or more likely: 2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp (it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly. Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2. The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is usually about the same in both channels. Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0, bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then the amp is screwed up somehow. Let us know what happens. Good luck. -Ben -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#69
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Subwoofer Output Question
Sorry about the late response, but yes I am currently driving only one sub.
There are plans to install a second, and some wiring has been installed, but it is not hooked up. When I go in Friday I'll definatly test the clip levels and let you know how it goes. As for the limiter, it cuts the bass off before it distorts, and in bridged mono I turned it on but it distorted at such a low volume anyway that it didn't matter. My crossover didn't come in today, hopefully it will arrrive before my Friday show. I am aware of the settings for bridged mode, the only thing that concerns me is that you stated that a pin needs to be moved in the speakon connectors( i am using speakon connectors btw). I'm not sure what you are reffering to, if you mean the DIP switches, i think those were moved correctly. Just to be sure, here are the switch settings i used for bridged mono: 1 - on (clip limiter on) 2 - on (30hz low cut filter) 3 - off (low cut filter on) 4 - off (stereo) 5 - off (stereo) 6 - on (bridge mode on) 7 - on (bridge mode on) 8 - off (low cut filter on ch2) 9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2) 10 - on (clip limiter ch2) Here's the settings i use for regular mode(ch2 does not matter, it isnt hooked up to anything) 1 - off (clip limiter off) 2 - on (30hz low cut filter) 3 - off (low cut filter on) 4 - off (stereo) 5 - off (stereo) 6 - off (bridge mode off) 7 - off (bridge mode off) 8 - off (low cut filter on ch2) 9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2) 10 - off (clip limiter ch2) Switching from stereo to parallel makes no difference, it just turns channel 2 input into a relay. I'm leaning towards channel 2 being blown, but since it was never used I dont understand how. The booth output of the board is being merged with a $5 adaptor from RadioShack, then fed into the subwoofer amp. This lets me have greater control of the subwoofer. I tried hooking up the subwoofer directly to the main output of the board, with and without the adaptor. There was no difference, it still had the same clipping issues in regular mode and distortion issues in bridged mode. The only thing i found was that the output was slightly louder with the adaptor, so I left it in when I put everything back together. The adaptor is a 1/4in stereo to mono headphone adaptor, and gets the job done. Also, power is not a concern, the building might be an old, rebuilt mill from the 1880's, but the club/ballroom has its own(less than three years old) transformer and utility room, with voltage monitoring and stabilizing equipment in the utility room. The only problem i've had so far is with the gym downstairs(same owner, different electrical) using the room during the day. I've had one speaker hit with a basketball and a gash in the dance floor from karate. "Ben" wrote in message m... Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right? First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP. Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around, run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass, and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so many ways to change the level on the mixer... Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down. Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub. So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high. But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you have one of two problems: 1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel. Or more likely: 2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp (it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly. Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2. The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is usually about the same in both channels. Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0, bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then the amp is screwed up somehow. Let us know what happens. Good luck. -Ben -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#70
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Subwoofer Output Question
Sorry for the late response,
Crossover should have come in today, but it didn't...should be in by Friday at the latest which is my next show. The sub doesnt have an LFE, its just a subwoofer in a box with a passive crossover. I've never seen(or heard of) an LFE on a sub, only on pre-amp equipment and on home stereo equipment. The mixer does not have an LFE out, only main, booth, and tape. Right now the amp is being fed off the booth output, with the Peaveys on main, but i have run the subwoofer off the mains only to have the same problems. "megabite" wrote in message ... Behringer are not especially rugged, high end, electronics. They will do the assigned job. I suspect you'll need an external "Active" crossover inline, just before the amp. That way, you will be able to "Cut" anything above the desired selected hertz you want to amplify and play perhaps 30 hz.- 300hz. depending on your woofers rating. I think your Woofer is trying to play the mid and upper freq's and causing the clip and distortion your talking about. In spite of any crossover that's "Passive" and internal. Are you inputing the signal at the subs LFE? (Low Freq. Extension, RCA connector, usually black or white.) "sk8erteck" wrote in message ... I know its clipping based on the clipping light. I'm familar with what you said, but it sounds better when its clipping versus not clipping in higher powered mode(bridged mono) at the same sound levels. That doesn't make sense to me, espesically when i came close to blowing the speaker(warning light on the speaker came full on) in bridged mode. The output was no louder than when it is clipping. I know a crossover is needed, I had one ordered as soon as I got the gig. There is one built into the woofer, but im thinking that i might get more power out of the amp with a crossover, since it doesnt have to amplify the highs + mids. That and it will give me more protection for the Peaveys, a guest DJ already blew one. (voice coil burnt) We thought that the other one was blown, but when we went up to look at it, it must have been hit by a basketball or something because the front grill was bent into the cone. Pulled the grill off and it sounded fine. "citronzx" wrote in message link.net... Could you explain how you have determined that the amplifier is clipping? Clipping is a form of distortion. It happens when an amplifier stage is driven up to and beyond the supply voltage (or current if a current amplifier). Imagine that you are feeding an amplifier sine wave and watching the output on an oscilloscope. Well, if all is well you see a sine wave of larger amplitude on the scope. If the amplifier is clipping the tops of the waves will be flattened off because the amplifier cannot supply enough power to form the tops of the peaks; it clips them off. If a light on the amplifier is telling you that it is clipping the you should turn it down until the light goes off. If this isn't loud enough then you should consider getting a more powerful amplifier. A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is not even at a level that you consider loud enough. Really, the only was that you are likely to damage a subwoofer is to drive it too loud and either damage the voice coil by over heating it or by causing the woofer to move in and out too far, again with too much power. I have actually seen a melted voice coil so I know that it can happen. I am a bit concerned that you say that you are not using a crossover. This is not an optional device. I'm not really very familiar with musical instrument equipment but if there is not a crossover built into the woofer then I would suggest not using it until you have one. Woofers are rugged and not as susceptible to being damaged by too high of a frequency as a tweeter is to being driven by too low of one but it sill is not a good idea. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#71
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Subwoofer Output Question
Sorry for the late response,
Crossover should have come in today, but it didn't...should be in by Friday at the latest which is my next show. The sub doesnt have an LFE, its just a subwoofer in a box with a passive crossover. I've never seen(or heard of) an LFE on a sub, only on pre-amp equipment and on home stereo equipment. The mixer does not have an LFE out, only main, booth, and tape. Right now the amp is being fed off the booth output, with the Peaveys on main, but i have run the subwoofer off the mains only to have the same problems. "megabite" wrote in message ... Behringer are not especially rugged, high end, electronics. They will do the assigned job. I suspect you'll need an external "Active" crossover inline, just before the amp. That way, you will be able to "Cut" anything above the desired selected hertz you want to amplify and play perhaps 30 hz.- 300hz. depending on your woofers rating. I think your Woofer is trying to play the mid and upper freq's and causing the clip and distortion your talking about. In spite of any crossover that's "Passive" and internal. Are you inputing the signal at the subs LFE? (Low Freq. Extension, RCA connector, usually black or white.) "sk8erteck" wrote in message ... I know its clipping based on the clipping light. I'm familar with what you said, but it sounds better when its clipping versus not clipping in higher powered mode(bridged mono) at the same sound levels. That doesn't make sense to me, espesically when i came close to blowing the speaker(warning light on the speaker came full on) in bridged mode. The output was no louder than when it is clipping. I know a crossover is needed, I had one ordered as soon as I got the gig. There is one built into the woofer, but im thinking that i might get more power out of the amp with a crossover, since it doesnt have to amplify the highs + mids. That and it will give me more protection for the Peaveys, a guest DJ already blew one. (voice coil burnt) We thought that the other one was blown, but when we went up to look at it, it must have been hit by a basketball or something because the front grill was bent into the cone. Pulled the grill off and it sounded fine. "citronzx" wrote in message link.net... Could you explain how you have determined that the amplifier is clipping? Clipping is a form of distortion. It happens when an amplifier stage is driven up to and beyond the supply voltage (or current if a current amplifier). Imagine that you are feeding an amplifier sine wave and watching the output on an oscilloscope. Well, if all is well you see a sine wave of larger amplitude on the scope. If the amplifier is clipping the tops of the waves will be flattened off because the amplifier cannot supply enough power to form the tops of the peaks; it clips them off. If a light on the amplifier is telling you that it is clipping the you should turn it down until the light goes off. If this isn't loud enough then you should consider getting a more powerful amplifier. A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is not even at a level that you consider loud enough. Really, the only was that you are likely to damage a subwoofer is to drive it too loud and either damage the voice coil by over heating it or by causing the woofer to move in and out too far, again with too much power. I have actually seen a melted voice coil so I know that it can happen. I am a bit concerned that you say that you are not using a crossover. This is not an optional device. I'm not really very familiar with musical instrument equipment but if there is not a crossover built into the woofer then I would suggest not using it until you have one. Woofers are rugged and not as susceptible to being damaged by too high of a frequency as a tweeter is to being driven by too low of one but it sill is not a good idea. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#72
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Subwoofer Output Question
Sorry for the late response,
Crossover should have come in today, but it didn't...should be in by Friday at the latest which is my next show. The sub doesnt have an LFE, its just a subwoofer in a box with a passive crossover. I've never seen(or heard of) an LFE on a sub, only on pre-amp equipment and on home stereo equipment. The mixer does not have an LFE out, only main, booth, and tape. Right now the amp is being fed off the booth output, with the Peaveys on main, but i have run the subwoofer off the mains only to have the same problems. "megabite" wrote in message ... Behringer are not especially rugged, high end, electronics. They will do the assigned job. I suspect you'll need an external "Active" crossover inline, just before the amp. That way, you will be able to "Cut" anything above the desired selected hertz you want to amplify and play perhaps 30 hz.- 300hz. depending on your woofers rating. I think your Woofer is trying to play the mid and upper freq's and causing the clip and distortion your talking about. In spite of any crossover that's "Passive" and internal. Are you inputing the signal at the subs LFE? (Low Freq. Extension, RCA connector, usually black or white.) "sk8erteck" wrote in message ... I know its clipping based on the clipping light. I'm familar with what you said, but it sounds better when its clipping versus not clipping in higher powered mode(bridged mono) at the same sound levels. That doesn't make sense to me, espesically when i came close to blowing the speaker(warning light on the speaker came full on) in bridged mode. The output was no louder than when it is clipping. I know a crossover is needed, I had one ordered as soon as I got the gig. There is one built into the woofer, but im thinking that i might get more power out of the amp with a crossover, since it doesnt have to amplify the highs + mids. That and it will give me more protection for the Peaveys, a guest DJ already blew one. (voice coil burnt) We thought that the other one was blown, but when we went up to look at it, it must have been hit by a basketball or something because the front grill was bent into the cone. Pulled the grill off and it sounded fine. "citronzx" wrote in message link.net... Could you explain how you have determined that the amplifier is clipping? Clipping is a form of distortion. It happens when an amplifier stage is driven up to and beyond the supply voltage (or current if a current amplifier). Imagine that you are feeding an amplifier sine wave and watching the output on an oscilloscope. Well, if all is well you see a sine wave of larger amplitude on the scope. If the amplifier is clipping the tops of the waves will be flattened off because the amplifier cannot supply enough power to form the tops of the peaks; it clips them off. If a light on the amplifier is telling you that it is clipping the you should turn it down until the light goes off. If this isn't loud enough then you should consider getting a more powerful amplifier. A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is not even at a level that you consider loud enough. Really, the only was that you are likely to damage a subwoofer is to drive it too loud and either damage the voice coil by over heating it or by causing the woofer to move in and out too far, again with too much power. I have actually seen a melted voice coil so I know that it can happen. I am a bit concerned that you say that you are not using a crossover. This is not an optional device. I'm not really very familiar with musical instrument equipment but if there is not a crossover built into the woofer then I would suggest not using it until you have one. Woofers are rugged and not as susceptible to being damaged by too high of a frequency as a tweeter is to being driven by too low of one but it sill is not a good idea. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#73
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Subwoofer Output Question
Sorry for the late response,
Crossover should have come in today, but it didn't...should be in by Friday at the latest which is my next show. The sub doesnt have an LFE, its just a subwoofer in a box with a passive crossover. I've never seen(or heard of) an LFE on a sub, only on pre-amp equipment and on home stereo equipment. The mixer does not have an LFE out, only main, booth, and tape. Right now the amp is being fed off the booth output, with the Peaveys on main, but i have run the subwoofer off the mains only to have the same problems. "megabite" wrote in message ... Behringer are not especially rugged, high end, electronics. They will do the assigned job. I suspect you'll need an external "Active" crossover inline, just before the amp. That way, you will be able to "Cut" anything above the desired selected hertz you want to amplify and play perhaps 30 hz.- 300hz. depending on your woofers rating. I think your Woofer is trying to play the mid and upper freq's and causing the clip and distortion your talking about. In spite of any crossover that's "Passive" and internal. Are you inputing the signal at the subs LFE? (Low Freq. Extension, RCA connector, usually black or white.) "sk8erteck" wrote in message ... I know its clipping based on the clipping light. I'm familar with what you said, but it sounds better when its clipping versus not clipping in higher powered mode(bridged mono) at the same sound levels. That doesn't make sense to me, espesically when i came close to blowing the speaker(warning light on the speaker came full on) in bridged mode. The output was no louder than when it is clipping. I know a crossover is needed, I had one ordered as soon as I got the gig. There is one built into the woofer, but im thinking that i might get more power out of the amp with a crossover, since it doesnt have to amplify the highs + mids. That and it will give me more protection for the Peaveys, a guest DJ already blew one. (voice coil burnt) We thought that the other one was blown, but when we went up to look at it, it must have been hit by a basketball or something because the front grill was bent into the cone. Pulled the grill off and it sounded fine. "citronzx" wrote in message link.net... Could you explain how you have determined that the amplifier is clipping? Clipping is a form of distortion. It happens when an amplifier stage is driven up to and beyond the supply voltage (or current if a current amplifier). Imagine that you are feeding an amplifier sine wave and watching the output on an oscilloscope. Well, if all is well you see a sine wave of larger amplitude on the scope. If the amplifier is clipping the tops of the waves will be flattened off because the amplifier cannot supply enough power to form the tops of the peaks; it clips them off. If a light on the amplifier is telling you that it is clipping the you should turn it down until the light goes off. If this isn't loud enough then you should consider getting a more powerful amplifier. A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is not even at a level that you consider loud enough. Really, the only was that you are likely to damage a subwoofer is to drive it too loud and either damage the voice coil by over heating it or by causing the woofer to move in and out too far, again with too much power. I have actually seen a melted voice coil so I know that it can happen. I am a bit concerned that you say that you are not using a crossover. This is not an optional device. I'm not really very familiar with musical instrument equipment but if there is not a crossover built into the woofer then I would suggest not using it until you have one. Woofers are rugged and not as susceptible to being damaged by too high of a frequency as a tweeter is to being driven by too low of one but it sill is not a good idea. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
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Subwoofer Output Question
sk8rteck-
Ok you do not have the speaker connected to the amp correctly. That is why bridging mode isn't working. Here is what I am talking about with the speakon connector: Each speakon connector has room for FOUR contacts in it. Now, in a normal single channel amp output, there are only two contacts used, and the other two contacts do nothing. Sometimes the metal pins for the other two contacts are not even there in the connector. But sometimes they are used. For example, many pro full-range cabinets are set up for bi-amping.. that is, the woofer in the cabinet is driven from a different amp channel than mid (if there is one) and tweeter). Then of course your sub cabinets get their own amp which makes a tri-amped system. But it is a pain to run two cables to every cabinet. So what they do is use a four conductor cable with all 4 contacts used on the connector. Wire pair #1 carries amp channel #1, wire pair #2 carries channel #2. So in a setup like that, each cabinet would get it's own amp, but not bridged, just two independent amp channels bundled through one cable. Makes sense? Ok so that is how the Behringer Channel #1 speaker jack is wired. BOTH channels are available on that one connector. On the channel #2 connector, just channel #2 is available. So how does this matter for bridging? Well, each channel output has a (+) wire and a (-) wire. When you are bridging, you don't use the (-) outputs at all, and the speaker is connected between the (+) of channel #1 and the (+) of channel #2.. that is how it uses BOTH channels of the amp. So that is the deal. Your amp speaker jack #1, connector, and speaker is wired like this: (AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +) (AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -) (AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 2+ (not used) (AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used) And what you need for bridging is: (AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +) (AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2+ (not used) (AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -) (AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used) That is why you need different connector wiring. If you don't want to rewire the cable, you can get a speakon jack and solder two wires to the right pins on that, put some tape on it.. then connect to the two red binding posts on the amp. That will do the same thing. Use decent wire for that... The other thing you have set up wrong is that you should have both the filter and the limiter on channel 2 turned OFF for bridge mode. Turn the limiter on for channel 1 only. And the 30hz filter, probably should be on for channel 1 also (I doubt you will get much bass down there anyway). So that's the deal. Hope it makes sense. BTW although I already know how bridging works on other amps, ALL the info I just gave you about this amp, the connector arrangements on it and the switch settings.. ALL that came from the PDF manual I got from looking on the Behringer web site. You should read that manual. Good luck. -Ben |
#75
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Subwoofer Output Question
sk8rteck-
Ok you do not have the speaker connected to the amp correctly. That is why bridging mode isn't working. Here is what I am talking about with the speakon connector: Each speakon connector has room for FOUR contacts in it. Now, in a normal single channel amp output, there are only two contacts used, and the other two contacts do nothing. Sometimes the metal pins for the other two contacts are not even there in the connector. But sometimes they are used. For example, many pro full-range cabinets are set up for bi-amping.. that is, the woofer in the cabinet is driven from a different amp channel than mid (if there is one) and tweeter). Then of course your sub cabinets get their own amp which makes a tri-amped system. But it is a pain to run two cables to every cabinet. So what they do is use a four conductor cable with all 4 contacts used on the connector. Wire pair #1 carries amp channel #1, wire pair #2 carries channel #2. So in a setup like that, each cabinet would get it's own amp, but not bridged, just two independent amp channels bundled through one cable. Makes sense? Ok so that is how the Behringer Channel #1 speaker jack is wired. BOTH channels are available on that one connector. On the channel #2 connector, just channel #2 is available. So how does this matter for bridging? Well, each channel output has a (+) wire and a (-) wire. When you are bridging, you don't use the (-) outputs at all, and the speaker is connected between the (+) of channel #1 and the (+) of channel #2.. that is how it uses BOTH channels of the amp. So that is the deal. Your amp speaker jack #1, connector, and speaker is wired like this: (AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +) (AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -) (AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 2+ (not used) (AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used) And what you need for bridging is: (AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +) (AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2+ (not used) (AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -) (AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used) That is why you need different connector wiring. If you don't want to rewire the cable, you can get a speakon jack and solder two wires to the right pins on that, put some tape on it.. then connect to the two red binding posts on the amp. That will do the same thing. Use decent wire for that... The other thing you have set up wrong is that you should have both the filter and the limiter on channel 2 turned OFF for bridge mode. Turn the limiter on for channel 1 only. And the 30hz filter, probably should be on for channel 1 also (I doubt you will get much bass down there anyway). So that's the deal. Hope it makes sense. BTW although I already know how bridging works on other amps, ALL the info I just gave you about this amp, the connector arrangements on it and the switch settings.. ALL that came from the PDF manual I got from looking on the Behringer web site. You should read that manual. Good luck. -Ben |
#76
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Subwoofer Output Question
sk8rteck-
Ok you do not have the speaker connected to the amp correctly. That is why bridging mode isn't working. Here is what I am talking about with the speakon connector: Each speakon connector has room for FOUR contacts in it. Now, in a normal single channel amp output, there are only two contacts used, and the other two contacts do nothing. Sometimes the metal pins for the other two contacts are not even there in the connector. But sometimes they are used. For example, many pro full-range cabinets are set up for bi-amping.. that is, the woofer in the cabinet is driven from a different amp channel than mid (if there is one) and tweeter). Then of course your sub cabinets get their own amp which makes a tri-amped system. But it is a pain to run two cables to every cabinet. So what they do is use a four conductor cable with all 4 contacts used on the connector. Wire pair #1 carries amp channel #1, wire pair #2 carries channel #2. So in a setup like that, each cabinet would get it's own amp, but not bridged, just two independent amp channels bundled through one cable. Makes sense? Ok so that is how the Behringer Channel #1 speaker jack is wired. BOTH channels are available on that one connector. On the channel #2 connector, just channel #2 is available. So how does this matter for bridging? Well, each channel output has a (+) wire and a (-) wire. When you are bridging, you don't use the (-) outputs at all, and the speaker is connected between the (+) of channel #1 and the (+) of channel #2.. that is how it uses BOTH channels of the amp. So that is the deal. Your amp speaker jack #1, connector, and speaker is wired like this: (AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +) (AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -) (AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 2+ (not used) (AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used) And what you need for bridging is: (AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +) (AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2+ (not used) (AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -) (AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used) That is why you need different connector wiring. If you don't want to rewire the cable, you can get a speakon jack and solder two wires to the right pins on that, put some tape on it.. then connect to the two red binding posts on the amp. That will do the same thing. Use decent wire for that... The other thing you have set up wrong is that you should have both the filter and the limiter on channel 2 turned OFF for bridge mode. Turn the limiter on for channel 1 only. And the 30hz filter, probably should be on for channel 1 also (I doubt you will get much bass down there anyway). So that's the deal. Hope it makes sense. BTW although I already know how bridging works on other amps, ALL the info I just gave you about this amp, the connector arrangements on it and the switch settings.. ALL that came from the PDF manual I got from looking on the Behringer web site. You should read that manual. Good luck. -Ben |
#77
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Subwoofer Output Question
sk8rteck-
Ok you do not have the speaker connected to the amp correctly. That is why bridging mode isn't working. Here is what I am talking about with the speakon connector: Each speakon connector has room for FOUR contacts in it. Now, in a normal single channel amp output, there are only two contacts used, and the other two contacts do nothing. Sometimes the metal pins for the other two contacts are not even there in the connector. But sometimes they are used. For example, many pro full-range cabinets are set up for bi-amping.. that is, the woofer in the cabinet is driven from a different amp channel than mid (if there is one) and tweeter). Then of course your sub cabinets get their own amp which makes a tri-amped system. But it is a pain to run two cables to every cabinet. So what they do is use a four conductor cable with all 4 contacts used on the connector. Wire pair #1 carries amp channel #1, wire pair #2 carries channel #2. So in a setup like that, each cabinet would get it's own amp, but not bridged, just two independent amp channels bundled through one cable. Makes sense? Ok so that is how the Behringer Channel #1 speaker jack is wired. BOTH channels are available on that one connector. On the channel #2 connector, just channel #2 is available. So how does this matter for bridging? Well, each channel output has a (+) wire and a (-) wire. When you are bridging, you don't use the (-) outputs at all, and the speaker is connected between the (+) of channel #1 and the (+) of channel #2.. that is how it uses BOTH channels of the amp. So that is the deal. Your amp speaker jack #1, connector, and speaker is wired like this: (AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +) (AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -) (AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 2+ (not used) (AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used) And what you need for bridging is: (AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +) (AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2+ (not used) (AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -) (AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used) That is why you need different connector wiring. If you don't want to rewire the cable, you can get a speakon jack and solder two wires to the right pins on that, put some tape on it.. then connect to the two red binding posts on the amp. That will do the same thing. Use decent wire for that... The other thing you have set up wrong is that you should have both the filter and the limiter on channel 2 turned OFF for bridge mode. Turn the limiter on for channel 1 only. And the 30hz filter, probably should be on for channel 1 also (I doubt you will get much bass down there anyway). So that's the deal. Hope it makes sense. BTW although I already know how bridging works on other amps, ALL the info I just gave you about this amp, the connector arrangements on it and the switch settings.. ALL that came from the PDF manual I got from looking on the Behringer web site. You should read that manual. Good luck. -Ben |
#78
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Subwoofer Output Question (correction!)
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#79
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Subwoofer Output Question (correction!)
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