A while back I posted a message complaining of poor reception of some
distant FM stations on my Onkyo TX-8011. I asked for recommendations for a
better tuner. I received many responses, almost all suggesting that it was
unlikely a new tuner would help since most were no better, and that my best
bet would be to get a better antenna. (I live in a building where it is not
possible to install an outside antenna). I have since tried the Terk Tower
amplified antenna and another indoor antenna (don¹t know the name) which
were no better than a folded dipole made of 300 ohm twin lead I had been
using. I intend to try the Terk FM-50 next. If find it interesting that a
Bose wave radio I had been using in another room was placed next to the
Onkyo, using its own antenna built into the the line cord, received FM
better than the Onkyo. I have been following this newsgroup for years and am
aware of the constant bashing of Bose by most people. In this area at least
it seems better than the Onkyo. I don't understand why a small table model
radio picks up weak FM signals better than the Onkyo. Why?

"Norman" wrote ...
A while back I posted a message complaining of poor reception of some
distant FM stations on my Onkyo TX-8011. I asked for recommendations
for a
better tuner. I received many responses, almost all suggesting that it
was
unlikely a new tuner would help since most were no better, and that my
best
bet would be to get a better antenna. (I live in a building where it
is not
possible to install an outside antenna). I have since tried the Terk
Tower
amplified antenna and another indoor antenna (don¹t know the name)
which
were no better than a folded dipole made of 300 ohm twin lead I had
been
using. I intend to try the Terk FM-50 next. If find it interesting
that a
Bose wave radio I had been using in another room was placed next to
the
Onkyo, using its own antenna built into the the line cord, received FM
better than the Onkyo. I have been following this newsgroup for years
and am
aware of the constant bashing of Bose by most people. In this area at
least
it seems better than the Onkyo. I don't understand why a small table
model
radio picks up weak FM signals better than the Onkyo. Why?

Bose is a big enough operation that they may have accidentally
hired a competent RF engineer? Accidents happen. I'm sure it
was inadvertent and that they will correct that anomoly with their
next model or revision. The bean-counters will see to it.

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Norman" wrote ...
A while back I posted a message complaining of poor reception of some
distant FM stations on my Onkyo TX-8011. I asked for recommendations for
a
better tuner. I received many responses, almost all suggesting that it
was
unlikely a new tuner would help since most were no better, and that my
best
bet would be to get a better antenna. (I live in a building where it is
not
possible to install an outside antenna). I have since tried the Terk
Tower
amplified antenna and another indoor antenna (don¹t know the name) which
were no better than a folded dipole made of 300 ohm twin lead I had been
using. I intend to try the Terk FM-50 next. If find it interesting that a
Bose wave radio I had been using in another room was placed next to the
Onkyo, using its own antenna built into the the line cord, received FM
better than the Onkyo. I have been following this newsgroup for years and
am
aware of the constant bashing of Bose by most people. In this area at
least
it seems better than the Onkyo. I don't understand why a small table
model
radio picks up weak FM signals better than the Onkyo. Why?

Bose is a big enough operation that they may have accidentally
hired a competent RF engineer? Accidents happen. I'm sure it
was inadvertent and that they will correct that anomoly with their
next model or revision. The bean-counters will see to it.

Why would they do that if they have already paid for a superior design? I
think a better answer might be that poor reception might be less noticeable
on a small sound system with lower fidelity, poorer stereo separation, and
so on (over-hyped claims for WaveRadio fidelity notwithstanding).

Maybe he should try a DIY CP antenna: http://users.tns.net/~bb/attic.htm or
this: http://users.tns.net/~bb/rabbit.htm

"Norman" wrote in message
...
A while back I posted a message complaining of poor reception of some
distant FM stations on my Onkyo TX-8011. I asked for recommendations for a
better tuner. I received many responses, almost all suggesting that it was
unlikely a new tuner would help since most were no better, and that my
best
bet would be to get a better antenna. (I live in a building where it is
not
possible to install an outside antenna). I have since tried the Terk Tower
amplified antenna and another indoor antenna (don¹t know the name) which
were no better than a folded dipole made of 300 ohm twin lead I had been
using. I intend to try the Terk FM-50 next.

PSST: outside antenna is needed


If find it interesting that a
Bose wave radio I had been using in another room was placed next to the
Onkyo, using its own antenna built into the the line cord, received FM
better than the Onkyo.

take receiver to friendly radio repair shop that has a calibrated RF signal
generator. check receiver sensitivity.


I have been following this newsgroup for years and am
aware of the constant bashing of Bose by most people. In this area at
least
it seems better than the Onkyo. I don't understand why a small table model
radio picks up weak FM signals better than the Onkyo. Why?


key factors: sensitivity, selectivity, image rejection. add bandwidth,
stability, overload immunity.

Concerning antennas, can you put your antenna on or very near a window?

Amplified antennas don't help much; you can't amplify what's not there in
the first place. Remember, an excessively weak FM signal is mixed with
noise at about the same level, and the amplifier will amplify both. What
you need is an antenna that picks up more of the desired signal.

Receiver sensitivity does vary a good bit from unit to unit because it
depends on the beta of particular transistors. It's also very sensitive to
alignment.

"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message
news:f90Tf.2513$vy.2123@trnddc01...

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Norman" wrote ...
A while back I posted a message complaining of poor reception of some
distant FM stations on my Onkyo TX-8011. I asked for recommendations
for a
better tuner. I received many responses, almost all suggesting that
it was
unlikely a new tuner would help since most were no better, and that
my best
bet would be to get a better antenna. (I live in a building where it
is not
possible to install an outside antenna). I have since tried the Terk
Tower
amplified antenna and another indoor antenna (don¹t know the name)
which
were no better than a folded dipole made of 300 ohm twin lead I had
been
using. I intend to try the Terk FM-50 next. If find it interesting
that a
Bose wave radio I had been using in another room was placed next to
the
Onkyo, using its own antenna built into the the line cord, received
FM
better than the Onkyo. I have been following this newsgroup for
years and am
aware of the constant bashing of Bose by most people. In this area
at least
it seems better than the Onkyo. I don't understand why a small table
model
radio picks up weak FM signals better than the Onkyo. Why?

Bose is a big enough operation that they may have accidentally
hired a competent RF engineer? Accidents happen. I'm sure it
was inadvertent and that they will correct that anomoly with their
next model or revision. The bean-counters will see to it.

Why would they do that if they have already paid for a superior
design?

Because they are Bose.

In , on 03/18/06
at 05:11 PM, Norman said:
[ ... ] Bose by most people. In this area at least it
seems better than the Onkyo. I don't understand why a small table
model radio picks up weak FM signals better than the Onkyo. Why?

Tuner performance does vary, even from sample to sample of the same
model.

How far away is that "weak" station? I'm beginning to feel that you
have a multipath problem. Lower bandwidth, higher distortion tuners
aren't as disrupted by multipath. I know that it does not seem fair
that a higher class tuner might perform worse than a low class unit
under some conditions, but it is all part of the physics. If you switch
your Onkyo to MONO, does the situation improve?

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From following your question, and from having worked in bench servicing of
tuners, and etc, I would think that your receiver most likely has a fault in
the front end. It is very possible that the first RF amp stage is not
working properly. You may be best off to take the receiver to a competent
shop to have it tested. Find out who is servicing Onkyo in your area. You
need to take it to a place that can do proper RF work. Not many of the techs
are able to do this type of work. You can ask them them to verify the front
end of your receiver to make sure that it is in specs. If it is defective,
they can service it for you.

In the past, I have seen the RF input transistor fail in receivers. In many
of these receivers, the RF input transistor is a FET or CMOS device. These
are extremely sensitive. These devices can be damaged from static
electricity coming in on the antenna, usually from the user touching the
antenna terminals when there are conditions for static discharge. The
receiver can be powered off, and disconnected from the AC, and it can still
be susceptible to be damaged. Also, if the set is on an outdoor antenna, a
lightning strike in the near by area can do damage to the front end, just
from the electrical pickup coming down the antenna leads.

Most all of the consumer FM receivers, and sound systems are very close in
specs for their front end. The variations in the sensitivity and selectivity
from one receiver to the other is not drastic. In the same model of
receiver, there will be some some characteristics change from one unit to
the other, due to their particular tollerance in the calibration and
assembly.



--

JANA
_____


"Norman" wrote in message
...
A while back I posted a message complaining of poor reception of some
distant FM stations on my Onkyo TX-8011. I asked for recommendations for a
better tuner. I received many responses, almost all suggesting that it was
unlikely a new tuner would help since most were no better, and that my best
bet would be to get a better antenna. (I live in a building where it is not
possible to install an outside antenna). I have since tried the Terk Tower
amplified antenna and another indoor antenna (don¹t know the name) which
were no better than a folded dipole made of 300 ohm twin lead I had been
using. I intend to try the Terk FM-50 next. If find it interesting that a
Bose wave radio I had been using in another room was placed next to the
Onkyo, using its own antenna built into the the line cord, received FM
better than the Onkyo. I have been following this newsgroup for years and am
aware of the constant bashing of Bose by most people. In this area at least
it seems better than the Onkyo. I don't understand why a small table model
radio picks up weak FM signals better than the Onkyo. Why?

"JANA" wrote ...
From following your question, and from having worked
in bench servicing of tuners, and etc, I would think that
your receiver most likely has a fault in the front end.

Not necessarily. It sounds like he is trying to DX without
an external antenna (or even an internal antenna in a window.)

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"JANA" wrote ...
From following your question, and from having worked in bench servicing
of tuners, and etc, I would think that your receiver most likely has a
fault in the front end.

Not necessarily. It sounds like he is trying to DX without
an external antenna (or even an internal antenna in a window.)

That could be. A FAQ where I live (a college town 75 miles from Atlanta) is
"Why can't I get all the Atlanta stations any more?" The answer: "You're
not in Atlanta any more." The powerful ones that beam eastward come in just
fine, but you don't get the full set, simply because of the distance.

"mc" wrote ...
That could be. A FAQ where I live (a college town 75
miles from Atlanta) is "Why can't I get all the Atlanta
stations any more?" The answer: "You're not in Atlanta
any more."

LOL! :-))

On 3/19/06 12:14 AM, in article ,
"Barry Mann" wrote:

In , on 03/18/06
at 05:11 PM, Norman said:
[ ... ] Bose by most people. In this area at least it
seems better than the Onkyo. I don't understand why a small table
model radio picks up weak FM signals better than the Onkyo. Why?

Tuner performance does vary, even from sample to sample of the same
model.

How far away is that "weak" station? I'm beginning to feel that you
have a multipath problem. Lower bandwidth, higher distortion tuners
aren't as disrupted by multipath. I know that it does not seem fair
that a higher class tuner might perform worse than a low class unit
under some conditions, but it is all part of the physics. If you switch
your Onkyo to MONO, does the situation improve?

No.
-----------------------------------------------------------
spam:
wordgame:123(abc):14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13 (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------

In article , Norman wrote:
A while back I posted a message complaining of poor reception of some
distant FM stations on my Onkyo TX-8011. I asked for recommendations for a
better tuner. I received many responses, almost all suggesting that it was
unlikely a new tuner would help since most were no better, and that my best
bet would be to get a better antenna. (I live in a building where it is not
possible to install an outside antenna). I have since tried the Terk Tower
amplified antenna and another indoor antenna (don¹t know the name) which
were no better than a folded dipole made of 300 ohm twin lead I had been
using. I intend to try the Terk FM-50 next. If find it interesting that a
Bose wave radio I had been using in another room was placed next to the
Onkyo, using its own antenna built into the the line cord, received FM
better than the Onkyo. I have been following this newsgroup for years and am
aware of the constant bashing of Bose by most people. In this area at least
it seems better than the Onkyo. I don't understand why a small table model
radio picks up weak FM signals better than the Onkyo. Why?


There is a relatively new antenna on the market. It has directivity and front to
back ratio. Its a little big for indoors, but I would consider it the ultimate
compared to other indoor types.....

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...oom=zoom#xview

greg
]

wrote in message
oups.com...

Unless the preamplifier has a lower noise figure than
the front end of the receiver, it has no usefull effect.
The noise figure is unlikely to be better as that would add as
much as a cent to the manufacturing cost.
Even if the preamps noise figure is lower the improvment is a
couple of db at most. If the receiver would benifit from more RF
amplification the manufacturer would have designed the reciever
to have more gain.

Well said. I think the real usefulness of amplified antennas comes with (1)
very old tuners that were not designed to have adequate gain (e.g. 1960s
antiques), and (2) tuners that might have lost a front-end transistor or
something, and it might be easier for the owner to put on an amplified
antenna than to fix the tuner.

In , on 03/20/06
at 01:51 PM, (GregS) said:


[ ... ]

There is a relatively new antenna on the market. It has directivity
and front to back ratio. Its a little big for indoors, but I would
consider it the ultimate compared to other indoor types.....

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...oom=zoom#xview

The Winegard datasheet did not explicitly give a front to back ratio
for the 100MHz region. Extrapolating from the 175MHz data, given the
relatively small size of the antenna, the front to back ratio in the FM
band, while probably better than other small antennas, may not be
enough to cure inner city problems.

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam:
wordgame:123(abc):14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13 (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------