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#1
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line voltage question
could someone tell me accurately at what point in time were the various
voltage standards in play? in other words, from what year to what year was the standard AC line voltage 110v, and what period of years was it 115v, 117v, etc. thanks, cowboy |
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#2
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Well, I've lived all over Canada, it's been invariably 123 volts.
-- Gregg "t3h g33k" http://geek.scorpiorising.ca *Ratings are for transistors, tubes have guidelines* |
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#3
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It has never really been a standard per se. There has always been a
target range at the pole pig, that target has steadily climbed since WWII as undervoltage caused more problems (failed motors in consumer equipment, brownouts) than overvoltage (which most switchmode power supplies handle and which electric motors find OK, up to a point). Unlike frequency, which became critical when Laurens Hammond introduced his electric clock and became more so when TVs came out that clocked their sweep to the line, voltage has always been more a range than a particular number. Power distribution transformers have taps that are adjusted to bring distribution voltages to where they should be and the points they change up and down on are sometimes a best guess for a given branch. That's one reason I firmly believe in DC regulated heater supplies for all the tubes. DC regulated supply design using zener or bandgap reference and pass transistors has been very well documented and is easy to implement with inexpensive, common components, contrary to goofball sources such as Gerald Weber. |
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#6
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Hi,
could someone tell me accurately at what point in time were the various voltage standards in play? in other words, from what year to what year was the standard AC line voltage 110v, and what period of years was it 115v, 117v, etc. I posted some details a couple of years ago, either here or on rec.antiques.radio+phono. I don't have a copy handy but some google newsgroup searching should find it. The info came from a 1928 A.I.E.E. paper when the new standards were being proposed. Briefly, there never was a 110V standard, and even around 1920 there were areas with 110V, 115V, 120V and even 125V (though the 125V tended to be DC). I believe 115V was standardized around 1928. Probably 117.5V +/- 7.5V came just after WW2, but I don't know. It's been 120V +/- 5% or +/-6V since the 1950s. 73, Alan |
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#7
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"Bob" : Unlike frequency, which became critical when Laurens Hammond introduced his electric clock and became more so when TVs came out that clocked their sweep to the line, TVs don't sync to the 'line' ... they sync to the standard sync signal that is part of a television broadcast, and for color it is 59 point something, not 60. ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Refresh_rate .................. Phil |
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#8
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In article , "Phil Allison"
wrote: "Bob" : Unlike frequency, which became critical when Laurens Hammond introduced his electric clock and became more so when TVs came out that clocked their sweep to the line, TVs don't sync to the 'line' ... they sync to the standard sync signal that is part of a television broadcast, and for color it is 59 point something, not 60. ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. Phil, I always knew you were an idiot, and this proves it, you haven't a clue. Prior to color, Television sets in the USA didn't use the power line for vertical sync, check the circuit designs of any late 40's early 50's Television used in the USA if you don't believe it. The most you can say is that in the pre color days the sync generator at the local studio was often syncronized to the 60 Hz line. I don't think network Television would have worked at all if Television receivers worked as you say, as I understand it there were many power grids across the USA and they were not synchronized. Also how would a viewer deal with the different vertical phase as points of origination shifted from one coast to the other? Regards, John Byrns Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/ |
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#9
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"John Byrns" = hee haw, hee haw, hee haw....... "Phil Allison" ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. Phil, I always knew you were an idiot, and this proves it, you haven't a clue. ** Not a good way to start a post John - guaranteed to get a massively hostile reply. Prior to color, Television sets in the USA didn't use the power line for vertical sync, check the circuit designs of any late 40's early 50's Television used in the USA if you don't believe it. The most you can say is that in the pre color days the sync generator at the local studio was often syncronized to the 60 Hz line. ** Amounts to exactly what I just posted - TV sets were synched to the local 60 Hz supply. Something not possible unless the transmitted video signal is synched to the same AC grid system. This is what it says in the URL I posted to back my words and *** YOU ****ING SNIPPED *** !!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Refresh_rate I don't think network Television would have worked at all if Television receivers worked as you say, as I understand it there were many power grids across the USA and they were not synchronized. ** The range of a TV transmitter is quite limited, the coverage zone would normally be all on the same grid. That was the **whole idea** behind locking the vertical to the local upply - ****HEAD. Also how would a viewer deal with the different vertical phase as points of origination shifted from one coast to the other? ** ROTFL - what utter crapology !!!!!!!!!! 40s and 50s TV signals had a 1000 mile range ?????? Transmitted on the SW band were they ????? In Morse too I suppose ????? ROTFLMAO !!!! ................. Phil |
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#10
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John Byrns wrote:
In article , "Phil Allison" wrote: "Bob" : Unlike frequency, which became critical when Laurens Hammond introduced his electric clock and became more so when TVs came out that clocked their sweep to the line, TVs don't sync to the 'line' ... they sync to the standard sync signal that is part of a television broadcast, and for color it is 59 point something, not 60. ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. Phil, I always knew you were an idiot, and this proves it, you haven't a clue. Prior to color, Television sets in the USA didn't use the power line for vertical sync, check the circuit designs of any late 40's early 50's Television used in the USA if you don't believe it. The most you can say is that in the pre color days the sync generator at the local studio was often syncronized to the 60 Hz line. I don't think network Television would have worked at all if Television receivers worked as you say, as I understand it there were many power grids across the USA and they were not synchronized. True enough, John. And some of them were still not even 60 Hz. At the advent of TV in North America there were still power systems running 50 Hz, 25 Hz & DC so that picture synchronization by that method seems highly unlikely. Imagine what that would do to an otherwise stable image!!! JLS Also how would a viewer deal with the different vertical phase as points of origination shifted from one coast to the other? Regards, John Byrns Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/ |
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#11
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"John Stewart" "Phil Allison" True enough, John. ** Go eat Moose **** you ****ing Canuck MORON !!! And some of them were still not even 60 Hz. ** 100 % I R R E L E V A N T to the context !!!!!!! ................ Phil |
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#12
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Phil Allison wrote:
"John Stewart" "Phil Allison" True enough, John. ** Go eat Moose **** you ****ing Canuck MORON !!! And some of them were still not even 60 Hz. ** 100 % I R R E L E V A N T to the context !!!!!!! ............... Phil ACC |
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#13
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in article , Phil Allison at
wrote on 1/26/05 8:18 AM: "John Stewart" "Phil Allison" True enough, John. ** Go eat Moose **** you ****ing Canuck MORON !!! And some of them were still not even 60 Hz. ** 100 % I R R E L E V A N T to the context !!!!!!! ............... Phil Someone forgot to take his meds today . . . . |
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#14
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John Stewart wrote: John Byrns wrote: In article , "Phil Allison" wrote: "Bob" : Unlike frequency, which became critical when Laurens Hammond introduced his electric clock and became more so when TVs came out that clocked their sweep to the line, TVs don't sync to the 'line' ... they sync to the standard sync signal that is part of a television broadcast, and for color it is 59 point something, not 60. ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. Phil, I always knew you were an idiot, and this proves it, you haven't a clue. Prior to color, Television sets in the USA didn't use the power line for vertical sync, check the circuit designs of any late 40's early 50's Television used in the USA if you don't believe it. The most you can say is that in the pre color days the sync generator at the local studio was often syncronized to the 60 Hz line. I don't think network Television would have worked at all if Television receivers worked as you say, as I understand it there were many power grids across the USA and they were not synchronized. True enough, John. And some of them were still not even 60 Hz. At the advent of TV in North America there were still power systems running 50 Hz, 25 Hz & DC so that picture synchronization by that method seems highly unlikely. Imagine what that would do to an otherwise stable image!!! JLS Also how would a viewer deal with the different vertical phase as points of origination shifted from one coast to the other? Regards, John Byrns Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/ I forgot to mention as well that altho we may not have had network TV in those early daze one only had to cross the state line or move to a different part of the city to have problems associated with whatever standard was in use. Cheers, JLS |
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#15
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"Jon Yaeger" Someone forgot to take his meds today . . . . ** While that psychotic Yaeger **** skipped out on his daily ECT. ............. Phil |
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#17
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in article , Jon Yaeger at
wrote on 1/26/05 9:22 AM: in article , Phil Allison at wrote on 1/26/05 9:20 AM: "Jon Yaeger" Someone forgot to take his meds today . . . . ** While that psychotic Yaeger **** skipped out on his daily ECT. ............ Phil BTW, Phil, ECT is used to treat depression, not psychosis. In addition to psychology, it appears that you also failed CIVIL engineering! ;-) |
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#18
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Phil, after this massive display of ignorance on your part, everything you post will be suspect. What you said in your earlier post was, and I quote, "** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz." You specifically said "TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation", not that the studio sync generators were sometimes locked to the local power line frequency. I challenge you to provide a reference to documentation on any US produced commercial Television receiver that "used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation"? A given Television station may not have a coverage radius of 1000 miles, but the program origination point, and original sync source may have been 1000 miles away, or even 3000 miles. Even if the problems I mentioned in my previous post didn't exist, which phase of the 3 phase power system was used for synchronization? What does the home Television viewer do if he is on a different phase of the local power system than was used to synchronize the transmitter? There are at least 6 different power phases that a given Television may be connected to, taking into account various possible Delta/Wye connections in the power distribution grid, did these early US television sets you speak of have a 6 position switch to select the proper vertical sync phase? There were also program production problems with syncing the studio to the local power system, or even a crystal oscillator. When a switch would be made from a local studio program to a network feed, or to a remote program like a football game or a boxing match, the picture on the home television set would roll until it locked onto the new vertical sync source, which was irritating to the viewer. This also meant that studio video couldn't be mixed with or superimposed on remote or network feeds. To solve this problem a circuit called a "Gen Lock" was added to the studio sync generators early on. The "Gen Lock" allowed the local studio sync generator to be synchronized to the sync signal of an incoming network feed or a remote broadcast, allowing video sources in the studio to be superimposed on or mixed with network or remote video, and also eliminating the irritating rolling of the picture on the home television set when switching video sources at the studio. I did take a look at the "wiki" you referenced, and aside from the fact that there is no way to tell what the sources are for information found on a "wiki", or how accurate it might be, the one you referenced doesn't even back up your claim that "** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz." All the "wiki" says is that "The NTSC refresh frequency was originally exactly 60 Hz in the black and white system, chosen because it matched the nominal 60 Hz frequency of alternating current power used in the United States." That is a far different statement than saying that "TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation" as you claimed. You have been taken in by a very old Urban Legend, and have failed to apply the least bit of critical thinking, the only way you can redeem yourself is to provide a reference to a commercial US produced Television receiver that used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronization, I won't hold my breath. Regards, John Byrns In article , "Phil Allison" wrote: "John Byrns" = hee haw, hee haw, hee haw....... "Phil Allison" ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. Phil, I always knew you were an idiot, and this proves it, you haven't a clue. ** Not a good way to start a post John - guaranteed to get a massively hostile reply. Prior to color, Television sets in the USA didn't use the power line for vertical sync, check the circuit designs of any late 40's early 50's Television used in the USA if you don't believe it. The most you can say is that in the pre color days the sync generator at the local studio was often syncronized to the 60 Hz line. ** Amounts to exactly what I just posted - TV sets were synched to the local 60 Hz supply. Something not possible unless the transmitted video signal is synched to the same AC grid system. This is what it says in the URL I posted to back my words and *** YOU ****ING SNIPPED *** !!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Refresh_rate I don't think network Television would have worked at all if Television receivers worked as you say, as I understand it there were many power grids across the USA and they were not synchronized. ** The range of a TV transmitter is quite limited, the coverage zone would normally be all on the same grid. That was the **whole idea** behind locking the vertical to the local upply - ****HEAD. Also how would a viewer deal with the different vertical phase as points of origination shifted from one coast to the other? ** ROTFL - what utter crapology !!!!!!!!!! 40s and 50s TV signals had a 1000 mile range ?????? Transmitted on the SW band were they ????? In Morse too I suppose ????? ROTFLMAO !!!! ................ Phil Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/ |
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#19
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#20
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"Jon Yaeger" wrote in message
... Someone forgot to take his meds today . . . . Someone forgot to use his killfile today. Honestly guys why the hell do you keep supporting the asshole? Tim -- "I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!" - Homer Simpson Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
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#21
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** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. There would be a problem of which of the 3 phases of 60Hz powerline is feeding your TV set. The frequency might be just right, but the phase on at least 2/3 of the TV sets in town would be wrong. Using the same frequency does reduce the annoyance level of hum bars and powerline operated sparky motor and such a little. But this reduction wasn't valuable enough to keep for color TV. Beat patterns between the color subcarrier and the sound carrier was more serious, and the subcarrier frequency was chosen such that any beat pattern would produce a checkerboard pattern. Which is less noticeable. The sound carrier frequency had to stay at 4.5MHz (USA) to be compatible with existing B&W TV sets. It was not practicable to make every owner have his sound IF tweaked if the sound carrier was changed. But making a slight change to the sync frequencies didn't have this problem, as all TVs had user adjustable horiz and vert hold controls with more than enough range to accommodate the change. The horiz deflection frequency was selected to make the appearance of the color subcarrier form a checkerboard pattern. |
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#22
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In article , robert
casey wrote: ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. There would be a problem of which of the 3 phases of 60Hz powerline is feeding your TV set. The frequency might be just right, but the phase on at least 2/3 of the TV sets in town would be wrong. Not just 2/3 but all of the Television sets in town would be on the wrong phase if the Television Broadcast station had a Delta connected 240 or 440 VAC service with a single phase 120 VAC step-down transformer in the building feeding the sync generator, that would throw an extra 60 degree phase shift into the mix IIRC. Regards, John Byrns Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/ |
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#23
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"John Byrns" = top posting, psychotic ****head Phil, after this massive display of ignorance on your part, everything you post will be suspect. ** **** you - asshole. What you said in your earlier post was, and I quote, "** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz." You specifically said "TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation", not that the studio sync generators were sometimes locked to the local power line frequency. ** But the URL I posted just under my words said exactly that !!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Refresh_rate " The NTSC refresh frequency was originally exactly 60 Hz in the black and white system, chosen because it matched the nominal 60 Hz frequency of alternating current power used in the United States. It was preferable to match the screen refresh rate to the power source to avoid wave interference that would produce rolling bars on the screen. Synchronization of the refresh rate to the power cycle also helped kinescope cameras record early live television broadcasts, " ** See the words " Synchronization ......... power cycle " ?????????? A given Television station may not have a coverage radius of 1000 miles, but the program origination point, and original sync source may have been 1000 miles away, or even 3000 miles. ** Huh ??? No satellites in 1940 or 50 I did take a look at the "wiki" you referenced, and aside from the fact that there is no way to tell what the sources are for information found on a "wiki", or how accurate it might be, the one you referenced doesn't even back up your claim that "** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz." All the "wiki" says is that "The NTSC refresh frequency was originally exactly 60 Hz in the black and white system, chosen because it matched the nominal 60 Hz frequency of alternating current power used in the United States." ** The ****ing asshole has edited the quote to suit his mad LIES !!! " The NTSC refresh frequency was originally exactly 60 Hz in the black and white system, chosen because it matched the nominal 60 Hz frequency of alternating current power used in the United States. It was preferable to match the screen refresh rate to the power source to avoid wave interference that would produce rolling bars on the screen. Synchronization of the refresh rate to the power cycle also helped kinescope cameras record early live television broadcasts, " That is a far different statement than saying that "TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation" ... ** It is exactly the same - you insanely autistic **** !!! " Amounts to exactly what I just posted - TV sets were synched to the local 60 Hz supply. Something not possible unless the transmitted video signal is synched to the same AC grid system. " ................. Phil |
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#24
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"Jon Yaeger" "Jon Yaeger" Someone forgot to take his meds today . . . . ** While that psychotic Yaeger **** skipped out on his daily ECT. BTW, Phil, ECT is used to treat depression, not psychosis. ** It was and is still used for both things - you pig ignorant prick. ................. Phil |
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#25
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"robert casey" ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. There would be a problem of which of the 3 phases of 60Hz powerline is feeding your TV set. ** Try not to be so DAMN literal - or are you vying for the "John Byrns Autistic Pedant of the Century " award ?? Try reading the URL supplied with those words too. ................ Phil |
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#26
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:07:22 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote: "Bob" : Unlike frequency, which became critical when Laurens Hammond introduced his electric clock and became more so when TVs came out that clocked their sweep to the line, TVs don't sync to the 'line' ... they sync to the standard sync signal that is part of a television broadcast, and for color it is 59 point something, not 60. ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Refresh_rate ................. Phil In the early days of TV, stations used to try to sync to the 60hz power to avoid moving hum bars, but I can assure you that there were most defiantly moving hum bars!! I spent many a night trying to watch movies through them! Not sure why, I guess the 60hz phase didn't quite lock in back then, with all the various power stations. Now of course everything syncs to master control (who are these men in black suits?) which has a reference color oscillator signal that every network in America locks on to. This prevents interference channels from moving - they stay locked in place which is a little less annoying. Dam hum bars still move, though! |
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#27
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"Bob" ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. In the early days of TV, stations used to try to sync to the 60hz power to avoid moving hum bars, but I can assure you that there were most defiantly moving hum bars!! I spent many a night trying to watch movies through them! Not sure why, I guess the 60hz phase didn't quite lock in back then, with all the various power stations. ** Care to put a year to that comment ?? .............. Phil |
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#28
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in article , Tim Williams at
wrote on 1/26/05 3:12 PM: "Jon Yaeger" wrote in message ... Someone forgot to take his meds today . . . . Someone forgot to use his killfile today. Honestly guys why the hell do you keep supporting the asshole? Tim -- "I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!" - Homer Simpson Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms Sorry, Tim. Right you are . . . I don't know why I ever took him off my killfilter. Jon |
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#29
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"John Byrns" You have been taken in by a very old Urban Legend, and have failed to apply the least bit of critical thinking, the only way you can redeem yourself is to provide a reference to a commercial US produced Television receiver that used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronization, I won't hold my breath. See page 4 of this: http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache...ync+1950&hl=en Read from the middle of the centre column beginning: " At the time, ..... " It discusses vertical hold " phase " controls to lock the pic to the local 60 Hz supply. Also from this, the restoration of an early US TV set: http://www.earlytelevision.org/meiss...storation.html "We have traced the extra circuitry. The "60 Cycle Sweep" and "FM Phasing" controls connect to the 6.3 v filament line, and vary the amplitude and phase of the 60 Hz signal. When the "Television/60 Cycle Sweep" switch is in the 60 Cycle Sweep position, this signal is fed to the vertical (frame) oscillator in place of the TV sync signal. Meissner used the wrong time constant in the vertical (frame) integrator circuit, which would have made the vertical (frame) sync unstable. The sync generators at TV stations were locked to the power line at that time, so it is my speculation that this modification allowed the user to lock the vertical (frame) oscillator to the power line to get more stable sync." .......... Phil |
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#30
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Sander deWaal wrote:
Phil Allison is the Arny Krueger of RAT. To be mocked, ridiculed, killfiled, but definitely *not* to be reasoned with. Hehe hes a joke. So shrill and hostile that few people actually care to converse with him. I believe he has some useful knowledge but also a severe case of short person syndrome like Robert Blake. Ohhh somebody on usenet called me a ****head, such pain... Adam |
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#31
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:47:15 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote: "Bob" ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. In the early days of TV, stations used to try to sync to the 60hz power to avoid moving hum bars, but I can assure you that there were most defiantly moving hum bars!! I spent many a night trying to watch movies through them! Not sure why, I guess the 60hz phase didn't quite lock in back then, with all the various power stations. ** Care to put a year to that comment ?? ............. Phil 60s... |
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#32
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:17:32 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote: -snip- Also from this, the restoration of an early US TV set: http://www.earlytelevision.org/meiss...storation.html "We have traced the extra circuitry. The "60 Cycle Sweep" and "FM Phasing" controls connect to the 6.3 v filament line, and vary the amplitude and phase of the 60 Hz signal. When the "Television/60 Cycle Sweep" switch is in the 60 Cycle Sweep position, this signal is fed to the vertical (frame) oscillator in place of the TV sync signal. Meissner used the wrong time constant in the vertical (frame) integrator circuit, which would have made the vertical (frame) sync unstable. The sync generators at TV stations were locked to the power line at that time, so it is my speculation that this modification allowed the user to lock the vertical (frame) oscillator to the power line to get more stable sync." ......... Phil Hey Phil that's fascinating stuff! |
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#33
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"Bob" "Phil Allison" ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. In the early days of TV, stations used to try to sync to the 60hz power to avoid moving hum bars, but I can assure you that there were most defiantly moving hum bars!! I spent many a night trying to watch movies through them! Not sure why, I guess the 60hz phase didn't quite lock in back then, with all the various power stations. ** Care to put a year to that comment ?? 60s... ** Bit late. ............... Phil |
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#34
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Phil Allison wrote:
"Jon Yaeger" "Jon Yaeger" Someone forgot to take his meds today . . . . ** While that psychotic Yaeger **** skipped out on his daily ECT. BTW, Phil, ECT is used to treat depression, not psychosis. ** It was and is still used for both things - you pig ignorant prick. ................ Phil I guess there isn't a moderator in this newsgroup then.........but then again.........maybe there is.. |
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#35
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Phil Allison wrote:
"robert casey" ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. There would be a problem of which of the 3 phases of 60Hz powerline is feeding your TV set. ** Try not to be so DAMN literal - or are you vying for the "John Byrns Autistic Pedant of the Century " award ?? Try reading the URL supplied with those words too. Sorry Phil, but this application (TV) one needs correct phase as well as correct frequency. If the phase is wrong but the frequency correct, you would see a vertical interval in the middle of the CRT display, and the bottom of the TV show image above the interval, and the top of the image below the interval. NOT a feature. That vertical knob on the Meissner was probably a phasing adjustment to roll the picture to avoid the vertical interval in the middle of the CRT faceplate. Sometimes one HAS to be anal about details like this, or else the product won't quite work right. I know about this as I do systems level engineering of video ASIC chips. If a detail like the above gets left out you end up with a chip that no customer will buy. You can't depend on people knowing to "fill in the details" on this sort of thing. A silicon designer cad tool jockey needs me to tell him what function blocks he needs to make circuits in silicon for. That's what the ASIC chip house pays me for... |
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#36
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In article , "Phil Allison"
wrote: "John Byrns" = top posting, psychotic ****head Phil, after this massive display of ignorance on your part, everything you post will be suspect. A given Television station may not have a coverage radius of 1000 miles, but the program origination point, and original sync source may have been 1000 miles away, or even 3000 miles. ** Huh ??? No satellites in 1940 or 50 That is correct, they didn't have satellites in 1940 or 50, they used fiber optic light guides instead.  Actually they didn't have fiberoptics in 1940 or 50 either. What they used was a couple of now forgotten technologies called Coaxial Cable and Microwave Repeaters. My Grandmother lived in Milwaukee Wisconsin USA at the time and had a General Electric Television set of about 1949 or 1950 vintage. She received Network Television on this set sometime around 1950. The following URL will give you some history of early Network Television in the USA. http://www.earlytelevision.org/american_postwar.html And this URL will show you a map of what the Bell System Coax/Microwave Network looked like in 1950. http://www.earlytelevision.org/tv_network_1950.html Note that by 1950 my Grandmother in Milwaukee was able to receive Network shows from New York. Connections to Los Angeles quickly followed, linking the North American continent from coast to coast. New York/Chicago Network was built in the late 1940's. The links from Boston to New York to Washington DC were built earlier. Regards, John Byrns Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/ |
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In article , "Phil Allison"
wrote: "John Byrns" You have been taken in by a very old Urban Legend, and have failed to apply the least bit of critical thinking, the only way you can redeem yourself is to provide a reference to a commercial US produced Television receiver that used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronization, I won't hold my breath. See page 4 of this: http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache...ync+1950&hl=en Read from the middle of the centre column beginning: " At the time, ..... " It discusses vertical hold " phase " controls to lock the pic to the local 60 Hz supply. Phil, you shouldn't believe everything you read, I suggest you consider the source, and stick only with articles from Professional Journals and Industry Magazines of the time, and forget articles in popular magazines, especially modern ones. Also from this, the restoration of an early US TV set: http://www.earlytelevision.org/meiss...storation.html "We have traced the extra circuitry. The "60 Cycle Sweep" and "FM Phasing" controls connect to the 6.3 v filament line, and vary the amplitude and phase of the 60 Hz signal. When the "Television/60 Cycle Sweep" switch is in the 60 Cycle Sweep position, this signal is fed to the vertical (frame) oscillator in place of the TV sync signal. Meissner used the wrong time constant in the vertical (frame) integrator circuit, which would have made the vertical (frame) sync unstable. The sync generators at TV stations were locked to the power line at that time, so it is my speculation that this modification allowed the user to lock the vertical (frame) oscillator to the power line to get more stable sync." Good work, you found a set that has a switch to optionally synchronize the vertical oscillator with the "60 Cycle" power line, in addition to the normal mode of synchronizing with the received "Television" signal. Can you find any other sets with this unusual feature, or better yet a set that only syncs to the "60 Cycle" power line? That Meissner set was an anomaly. Why did they even need a switch, why not just have it always sync to the "60 Cycle" power line as you claim was done in old USA Television sets? Here is something else to consider, where did the scanning frequencies come from on remote broadcasts where a "60 Cycle" power line was not available, and a gasoline generator was used to power the cameras and remote equipment? The answer is that a crystal oscillator was used, which had no reference to the "60 Cycle" power line. Why don't you stop and do a little critical thinking before you make too big a fool of yourself. You have already acknowledged that when color came in about 1953 or 1954, the scanning frequencies were changed slightly. If your thesis that Televisions built in the USA before the advent of color were line synchronized, that would imply that when one of the new color programs was being viewed on an older black and white Television, the picture would roll and tear. I can assure you that no such thing occurred! My family had a 1952 model Television set that was used until it was replaced by a color set in 1962. The old TV lived on in the basement recreation room, and received the new color programs with no problem. Similarly my Grandmother had a 1949 or 1950 General Electric set which she used until some time around 1960 when she replaced it with a new Television set. Her old General Electric set also didn't have any problem with the new scanning frequencies. In the early 1960's my Aunt married a man from New York city, were Television existed before WW2. When they eventually moved back to the midwest he brought his old Television set with him, which I would estimate was from about 1947 or thereabouts, and had a tiny screen, maybe 9 inches or so. This early post war Television set also had no problems with the new scanning frequencies. Now doesn't it stand to reason that if these old Television sets had their vertical time base synchronized to the local "60 Cycle" power line, that when receiving the new color broadcasts the pictures wouldn't have been stable and would have rolled and torn? In fact if the old Television sets were synchronized with the "60 Cycle" power line as you claim, then the change in scanning frequencies would have defeated the whole goal of compatibility that was incorporated in the updated NTSC system, and they could have just as well done a non compatible color system. Phil, you have to think harder, you are making yourself out as an idiot by believing everything you read on the internet. Regards, John Byrns Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/ |
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"Alan Douglas" adouglasatgis.net wrote in message ... Hi, could someone tell me accurately at what point in time were the various voltage standards in play? in other words, from what year to what year was the standard AC line voltage 110v, and what period of years was it 115v, 117v, etc. I posted some details a couple of years ago, either here or on rec.antiques.radio+phono. I don't have a copy handy but some google newsgroup searching should find it. The info came from a 1928 A.I.E.E. paper when the new standards were being proposed. Briefly, there never was a 110V standard, and even around 1920 there were areas with 110V, 115V, 120V and even 125V (though the 125V tended to be DC). I believe 115V was standardized around 1928. Probably 117.5V +/- 7.5V came just after WW2, but I don't know. It's been 120V +/- 5% or +/-6V since the 1950s. 73, Alan Cowboy, Look at all the trouble you caused. Next time be careful of provoking questions! Cordially, west |
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"Steve" Phil Allison "Jon Yaeger" Someone forgot to take his meds today . . . . ** While that psychotic Yaeger **** skipped out on his daily ECT. BTW, Phil, ECT is used to treat depression, not psychosis. ** It was and is still used for both things - you pig ignorant prick. ................ Phil I guess there isn't a moderator in this newsgroup then ** If there were a moderator - then a pice of garbage like Yaeger would be out on his bum real fast. ............... Phil |
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"robert casey" Phil Allison wrote: "robert casey" ** In the USA, TV sets used the 60 Hz supply for vertical synchronisation until the advent of color - when the frequency became shifted down to 59.94 Hz. There would be a problem of which of the 3 phases of 60Hz powerline is feeding your TV set. ** Try not to be so DAMN literal - or are you vying for the "John Byrns Autistic Pedant of the Century " award ?? Try reading the URL supplied with those words too. Sorry Phil, but this application (TV) one needs correct phase as well as correct frequency. ** Arrrrrrrrrhhhhhhh - stop being so damn LITERAL !!!!!! My post does not say that individually TV sets all used the AC supply FROM the WALL OUTLET for synchronisation - only that TVs were all synced to the 60 Hz supply frequency since, of course, the transmission was !!!!!!! This is what the URL says - and when you put the two sets of words together that removes any ambiguity. If the phase is wrong but the frequency correct, you would see a vertical interval in the middle of the CRT display, and the bottom of the TV show image above the interval, and the top of the image below the interval. NOT a feature. That vertical knob on the Meissner was probably a phasing adjustment to roll the picture to avoid the vertical interval in the middle of the CRT faceplate. ** Of course, if the set used the wall outlet AC supply for a frequency reference - then a phase shift control is need to get it right. Technically no big deal is it ? Certainly not impossible. Sometimes one HAS to be anal about details like this, ** You are just plain ****ing ANAL and thick as a plank too. How about you QUIT posting **audiophool garbage** on aus.hi-fi - and leave out posting those damn SPICE tube models too !!! ................... Phil |
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