Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
Here are some posts from mastering engineer Steve Hoffman, who did all of
the DCC titles, relating to SOTA vinyl mastering. Have to admire the guys who want to go through this torture when all they would have to do in the case of CD mastering is push the "burn" button. So if you still prefer the sound of vinyl here is some interesting reading: QUOTE There is something about Rudy Van Gelder master tapes from the late 1950's and early 1960's that Neumann cutting lathes HATE! There is a very high frequency oscillation in those tapes that loves to burn up cutter heads and cutting amps. I was cutting LUSH LIFE today with Kevin and I couldn't believe how crazy the equipment was getting. We slowed down the master tape to about 5 inches per second and FOUND IT! A pesky tone, embedded in the Van Gelder tapes that is around 20,000 cycles. ONLY on the cymbals, or when the cymbals hit. I have no idea why this happens, but we speculate that it is some kind of RCA limiter reaction to the crash sound; much worse than limiter splatter. As Kevin and I were pulling out (just his) hair over this, we were talking about the Neumann cutting system he has. Get a load of this: It is a Neumann SX-74, built in West Berlin, Germany in very late 1973. It was shipped new to Whitney Recording Studios in Glendale in 1974 and was sold to LRS (Location Recording Service) in 1976 where it stayed until 1999 when Kevin Gray bought it For AcousTech Mastering in Camarillo. Kevin estimates that (conservatively) he has cut 40,000 sides with this unit since 1978. An amazing amount of vinyl! Now, here is the blow-mind part: The unit cuts flat from 2 hz to 27,000 cycles! Imagine that. So, in the 1950's and '60's, the Van Gelder stuff was cut with Scully/Westrex systems that started rolling off around 12k. No one had any problem cutting these tapes. With the advent of the Neumann system (which had to be able to cut an RCA CD-4 quadraphonic carrier tone on the disc with no problem) things got bad, quickly. I remember when I cut the original DCC LUSH LIFE LP with Stan Ricker we were both dumbfounded at the wacky things the tape was doing to the machinery. Today brought it all back. Oh, we finally "got it", but it was tough! Love that Neumann SX-74 though! UNQUOTE and QUOTE I've been spending this week trying to successfully master Sonny Rollins "Way Out West" and The Bill Evans Trio "Waltz For Debby" onto 45 RPM discs. "Tis a struggle folks! These recordings are VERY dynamic and very left/right heavy; doom for the mastering engineer. Kevin Gray, who I feel is the best damn record cutter in the world today, has been tearing his hair out. And let me tell you, that's not a good idea... However, we have nailed 'em! Thank goodness. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night otherwise. The trick of making a good record, is to, well, make a good record. This means following certain "rules". Among them are the two most basic: Rule one: The sound has to be louder than the noise of the vinyl. Rule two: The sound can't be too loud or the groove will break. End of old rules. New rules: STEVE'S RULES: I will not add ANY limiting or compression to our discs while cutting, even if the dynamic range on the master tapes is greater than the range of our VU meters (amazing, but true!) I will not tamper in any way with the pure tonality of the original master recordings, even if one drum "thwack" is 10db hotter than the rest of the music floor. Kevin and I will not cut too far into the record center at 45 RPM so that even an average stylus can track the groove with ease. UNQUOTE and QUOTE If I cut a straight transfer lacquer, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the cutting and the master. If I add some extra "magic" I do it because it needs to be done! But, I control it, it is not built in to our cutting system. UNQUOTE Also this from Speakers Corner on their latest From Elvis In Memphis vinyl release: QUOTE The lacquers are cut in Hannover at Emil-Berliner-Studios on Neumann VMS 80. According to my knowledge, no (analogue) equalizer is available there. The cutting console of VMS 80 does contain an equalizer, but this is so bad that even if you just connect it into the signal-line the sound becomes worse. This unit is disabled therefore. So, the answer to your question is: no kind of equalization, filtering or limiting what-so-ever on this release. UNQUOTE ________ Thom |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
Here are some posts from mastering engineer Steve Hoffman, who did all of
the DCC titles, relating to SOTA vinyl mastering. Have to admire the guys who want to go through this torture when all they would have to do in the case of CD mastering is push the "burn" button. So if you still prefer the sound of vinyl here is some interesting reading: QUOTE There is something about Rudy Van Gelder master tapes from the late 1950's and early 1960's that Neumann cutting lathes HATE! There is a very high frequency oscillation in those tapes that loves to burn up cutter heads and cutting amps. I was cutting LUSH LIFE today with Kevin and I couldn't believe how crazy the equipment was getting. We slowed down the master tape to about 5 inches per second and FOUND IT! A pesky tone, embedded in the Van Gelder tapes that is around 20,000 cycles. ONLY on the cymbals, or when the cymbals hit. I have no idea why this happens, but we speculate that it is some kind of RCA limiter reaction to the crash sound; much worse than limiter splatter. As Kevin and I were pulling out (just his) hair over this, we were talking about the Neumann cutting system he has. Get a load of this: It is a Neumann SX-74, built in West Berlin, Germany in very late 1973. It was shipped new to Whitney Recording Studios in Glendale in 1974 and was sold to LRS (Location Recording Service) in 1976 where it stayed until 1999 when Kevin Gray bought it For AcousTech Mastering in Camarillo. Kevin estimates that (conservatively) he has cut 40,000 sides with this unit since 1978. An amazing amount of vinyl! Now, here is the blow-mind part: The unit cuts flat from 2 hz to 27,000 cycles! Imagine that. So, in the 1950's and '60's, the Van Gelder stuff was cut with Scully/Westrex systems that started rolling off around 12k. No one had any problem cutting these tapes. With the advent of the Neumann system (which had to be able to cut an RCA CD-4 quadraphonic carrier tone on the disc with no problem) things got bad, quickly. I remember when I cut the original DCC LUSH LIFE LP with Stan Ricker we were both dumbfounded at the wacky things the tape was doing to the machinery. Today brought it all back. Oh, we finally "got it", but it was tough! Love that Neumann SX-74 though! UNQUOTE and QUOTE I've been spending this week trying to successfully master Sonny Rollins "Way Out West" and The Bill Evans Trio "Waltz For Debby" onto 45 RPM discs. "Tis a struggle folks! These recordings are VERY dynamic and very left/right heavy; doom for the mastering engineer. Kevin Gray, who I feel is the best damn record cutter in the world today, has been tearing his hair out. And let me tell you, that's not a good idea... However, we have nailed 'em! Thank goodness. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night otherwise. The trick of making a good record, is to, well, make a good record. This means following certain "rules". Among them are the two most basic: Rule one: The sound has to be louder than the noise of the vinyl. Rule two: The sound can't be too loud or the groove will break. End of old rules. New rules: STEVE'S RULES: I will not add ANY limiting or compression to our discs while cutting, even if the dynamic range on the master tapes is greater than the range of our VU meters (amazing, but true!) I will not tamper in any way with the pure tonality of the original master recordings, even if one drum "thwack" is 10db hotter than the rest of the music floor. Kevin and I will not cut too far into the record center at 45 RPM so that even an average stylus can track the groove with ease. UNQUOTE and QUOTE If I cut a straight transfer lacquer, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the cutting and the master. If I add some extra "magic" I do it because it needs to be done! But, I control it, it is not built in to our cutting system. UNQUOTE Also this from Speakers Corner on their latest From Elvis In Memphis vinyl release: QUOTE The lacquers are cut in Hannover at Emil-Berliner-Studios on Neumann VMS 80. According to my knowledge, no (analogue) equalizer is available there. The cutting console of VMS 80 does contain an equalizer, but this is so bad that even if you just connect it into the signal-line the sound becomes worse. This unit is disabled therefore. So, the answer to your question is: no kind of equalization, filtering or limiting what-so-ever on this release. UNQUOTE You may not need to do anything other than press a button to master a CD but mastering is an art and IMO Steve Hoffman is one of the best. I have purchased every one of the new Jazz reissues he talks about above and to my ears they are far and away the best version of each title I have ever heard. Interstingly enough Steve Hoffman is a major advocate of one particular SET amplifier. I have not had the oppurtunity to hear that particular amp, The WAVAC 833, but I think it would make for interesting listening. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On 18 Oct 2003 16:02:05 GMT, (S888Wheel) wrote: You may not need to do anything other than press a button to master a CD but mastering is an art and IMO Steve Hoffman is one of the best. I have purchased every one of the new Jazz reissues he talks about above and to my ears they are far and away the best version of each title I have ever heard. Up to this point, your argument is plausible. Interstingly enough Steve Hoffman is a major advocate of one particular SET amplifier. I have not had the oppurtunity to hear that particular amp, The WAVAC 833, but I think it would make for interesting listening. Unfortunately, this one comment tends to destroy Hoffman's credibiity..... and then there's this... http://www.shakti-innovations.com/hallograph.htm -- -S. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
Steven said
and then there's this... http://www.shakti-innovations.com/hallograph.htm They are marketed as diffusion. Are you claiming that diffusion as a means of better sound is a dubious claim or are you saying that these particular devices don't work? |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
I said
You may not need to do anything other than press a button to master a CD but mastering is an art and IMO Steve Hoffman is one of the best. I have purchased every one of the new Jazz reissues he talks about above and to my ears they are far and away the best version of each title I have ever heard. Stewart said Up to this point, your argument is plausible. I didn't know I was making an argument. I was just offering my opinion of the quality of Hoffman's work as a mastering engineer compared to other efforts with the same recordings. I said Interstingly enough Steve Hoffman is a major advocate of one particular SET amplifier. I have not had the oppurtunity to hear that particular amp, The WAVAC 833, but I think it would make for interesting listening. Stewart said Unfortunately, this one comment tends to destroy Hoffman's credibiity..... With you certainly. I would want to listen to this amp with Hoffman's reference speakers and compare before rushing to judgement about hsi choice on amps much less rushing to judgement on his credability. I have not listened to this amp with his choice of speakers so I withhold any such judgement. have you heard this amp with Steve Hoffman's choices for reference speakers? have you compared it to other amps using those speakers? If not, I would say your judgement of Mr. Hoffman's credibility is a bit hasty. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
... On 18 Oct 2003 16:02:05 GMT, (S888Wheel) wrote: You may not need to do anything other than press a button to master a CD but mastering is an art and IMO Steve Hoffman is one of the best. I have purchased every one of the new Jazz reissues he talks about above and to my ears they are far and away the best version of each title I have ever heard. Up to this point, your argument is plausible. Interstingly enough Steve Hoffman is a major advocate of one particular SET amplifier. I have not had the oppurtunity to hear that particular amp, The WAVAC 833, but I think it would make for interesting listening. Unfortunately, this one comment tends to destroy Hoffman's credibiity..... -- No, Stewart, it simply shows your bias. Steve Hoffman has built a decades old reputation based on his mastering and "ear" for good sound. He uses the WAVAC 833 because he thinks its sound is superior to other amps he has tried. Perhaps not neutral, but *superior* in capturing the essence of "musicality". It is also a high powered (100wpc) single end with supposedly fantastic bass. I haven't heard it. But I do trust Steve's judgment when it comes to sound quality. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
"S888Wheel" wrote in message
... You may not need to do anything other than press a button to master a CD but mastering is an art and IMO Steve Hoffman is one of the best. I have purchased every one of the new Jazz reissues he talks about above and to my ears they are far and away the best version of each title I have ever heard. Interstingly enough Steve Hoffman is a major advocate of one particular SET amplifier. I have not had the oppurtunity to hear that particular amp, The WAVAC 833, but I think it would make for interesting listening. Steve Hoffman is an excellent mastering engineer. No doubt. I got some CDs of his from the mid 80s that still are the best I've heard and his work with DCC brought forth some great releases. However, I have some credibility problems with him. Here are a couple of interesting quotes from Steve taken from this interview in 1997 when he was heavily into mastering CDs: [quote] DMG - Maybe, though with higher resolution formats there might be more detail... Steve - You know, when you say higher resolution, I get scared. To me, higher resolution means Krell. It's like, how much is there anyway? Lets say the Lourve museum loans you the Mona Lisa for a couple of days. Ok, so here's the Mona Lisa. Where do you show it? Do you hang it up in the house with a nice, soft light? Or do you take it outside with the sun shining on it, where all you're going to see are the scratches and cracks. How much resolution is there? The less resolution there is on that, the better its going to look. That's my only fear. When you look at a piece of color printing, and all you see are colored dots all over the page, you wonder how much resolution was there to begin with. When you listen to the Beatles' I Want To Hold Your Hand on a really good system, it's disappointing. It's not a sonic masterpiece. It's a good song, but not a great recording. So, words like 'higher resolution' to me, scare me a little bit. DMG - Most of the audio bandwith can be handled very well by 16bit CD. Steve - Yes. [UNQUOTE] and [quote] DMG - So, is 20 or 24 bit going to get to a level where the emotion is completely gone through more imperfections being brought out? Steve - That's exactly why higher resolution scares me. With higher res on that recording, you're going to hear more high end that shouldn't be there. People would be surprised if they had a meter hooked up to their system and could see that on 90% of their records and discs, above 9500K, there's nothing there. What you're hearing up there is tape hiss, or some other thing that isn't part of the music. When you extend everything up to that range, there's nothing up there but noise. DMG - Well, it seems people don't want to admit that their hearing basically falls off dramatically around 13 or 14k. Steve - Not only that, but the famous Neumann mikes have a giant peak around 6k, and from there it's all downhill. You know, you have to examine what it is you want from music, and if you're one of those people that relies on charts or instrument readings, and you say, 'Well, my system reproduces from 5 cycles to 9 million cycles'. Well, that's great, but you sure aren't hearing it. Numbers aren't everything. You have to trust your ears, and I always tell people that. [UNQUOTE] And here is what he had to say WRT to vinyl: [quote] DMG - And all because they've made the American components so expensive, it's so much easier for people to put their money on Japanese products. What else do you use at home? Steve - I use a pre-amp, it's called a Joule Electra, it's made by Jud Barber in South Carolina. I also have a pair of Australian speakers called Whatmough 202's, and a lot of other things that come in and out all the time. I use a Well-Tempered turntable, though I haven't been playing all that many records. I've been really spoiled. Once you hear the master of some great album, it's you know, really hard to play the record and go, 'yeah, that sounds really good'. So, I'm really spoiled that way. I don't want to spend a lot of money on a turntable that runs with a piece of dental floss. [UNQUOTE] The whole interview is here http://home.earthlink.net/~mercmoon/hoffmanint.htm And something he told me when I asked him about his mastering of Elvis' In The Ghetto: [quote] I transferred IN THE GHETTO flat from the two-track master mix. The DCC version is how the actual tape sounds. [UNQUOTE] Now though, he is heavily into SACD mastering, and the master tapes which he has spent close to 20 years listening to and digitizing has suddenly seen a *sharp* rise in dynamic range. [quote] GoldenGuy, The boundaries of Digital PCM have already been pushed to their limit if I play back a master tape vs. the PCM copy and hear things like echo fall off on the digital. If they sounded the same in an A/B all our problems would be over and my job would be so much easier. [UNQUOTE] The whole thread is he http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...2530&highlight =Whats+the+Worst+thing+about+SACDs And in this thread http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...9886&highlight =sacd he snaps at somebody nicknamed Pepzhez for really just putting forth some of the same thoughts that Steve had in the 1997 interview: [quote] Do SACD's and CD's sound different? Sure. Does the sound of the CD layer and the DSD layer sound different on an SH mastered SACD Hybrid? Well, tonally they should sound the same. The resolution factor kicks in on the DSD layer and you can hear "in" to the mix better; in other words, much better ambiance retrieval. [UNQUOTE] Read into it what you will. ________ Thom |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
Frankly, it's not up to anyone to show that these devices DON'T work,
it's up to Shakti to demonstrate that they do, It seems they have sufficiently done so for some who have actually tried them. Just because you don't like their literature doesn't mean they don't improve room sound. Personally I would want to try them before endorsing them or condemning them. At that price they had better exceed my expectations though. Frankly, the recording industry is populate with more than its fair share of cranks and kooks. Yeah, some of them make GREAT recordings, but an unfortunately large number of those that do have NO idea HOW they do it. And a lot of those who have made GREAT recordings have made perfectly horrible recordings as well. I'm guessing this in reference to Steve Hoffman. He is primarily a mastering engineer. He has done very little recording. IME his work has been consistantly excellent. I doubt that he is just getting lucky. No, it's not about whether diffusion does or does not work, because Shakti's thingy has NOTHING to do with diffusion. It's about magic wands. Based on the sales pitch or actual experience with the product? Listerine used to say that their product prevented colds. It was a lie. Thier product did work as a mouth wash though which what it was sold as. |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
S888Wheel wrote:
Frankly, it's not up to anyone to show that these devices DON'T work, it's up to Shakti to demonstrate that they do, It seems they have sufficiently done so for some who have actually tried them. Depends on what you mean by 'tried'. Just because you don't like their literature doesn't mean they don't improve room sound. Personally I would want to try them before endorsing them or condemning them. At that price they had better exceed my expectations though. Frankly, the recording industry is populate with more than its fair share of cranks and kooks. Yeah, some of them make GREAT recordings, but an unfortunately large number of those that do have NO idea HOW they do it. And a lot of those who have made GREAT recordings have made perfectly horrible recordings as well. I'm guessing this in reference to Steve Hoffman. He is primarily a mastering engineer. He has done very little recording. IME his work has been consistantly excellent. I doubt that he is just getting lucky. Mr. Hoffman is probably very good at makign the sorts of mastering decisions that almost certainly will affect sound of the product. That does not make his beliefs about stuff that almost certainly will not affect the sound, any more believable. Because he could be UTTERLY WRONG about such things, and it wouldn't make ANY DIFFERENCE. In other words, suppose he swears that adjusting certain midrange frequencies is key to mastering; and suppose he also swears that a hallograph in the mastering room makes things sound better. If the Hallograph in fact does nothing whatever to the sound, his adjustments to midrange, which are indeed likely to be audible, will still be in effect. No, it's not about whether diffusion does or does not work, because Shakti's thingy has NOTHING to do with diffusion. It's about magic wands. Based on the sales pitch or actual experience with the product? Listerine used to say that their product prevented colds. It was a lie. Thier product did work as a mouth wash though which what it was sold as. *You* asked about diffusion and the Hallograph. Mr. Pierce has adequately answered your question. -- -S. ______ "You're an abuser Sullivan....a base beast with intellect but little intelligence to show for it" -- KENNEH! |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
|
#13
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
There is no speaker which can compensate for the *innate* nonlinearity
and compression of a SET amp. If he is using speakers which can repoduce the required maximum SPLs cleanly while not exceeding say 1/3 power on the WAVAC, then those speakers are large horns, and willhave their own severe problems. In short, there is *no* combination which can provide a *neutral* sound with adequate SPL capability. If you like recordings mastered on such a system, then that's your choice. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering Have you ever compared his work to the work of others on the same recordings? Do you know whether or not you like recordings mastered on such a system or not? or do you think listening simply isn't the proper way to judge mastering skills? |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
... On 19 Oct 2003 16:02:45 GMT, (S888Wheel) wrote: Interstingly enough Steve Hoffman is a major advocate of one particular SET amplifier. I have not had the oppurtunity to hear that particular amp, The WAVAC 833, but I think it would make for interesting listening. Stewart said Unfortunately, this one comment tends to destroy Hoffman's credibiity..... With you certainly. I would want to listen to this amp with Hoffman's reference speakers and compare before rushing to judgement about hsi choice on amps much less rushing to judgement on his credability. I have not listened to this amp with his choice of speakers so I withhold any such judgement. have you heard this amp with Steve Hoffman's choices for reference speakers? have you compared it to other amps using those speakers? If not, I would say your judgement of Mr. Hoffman's credibility is a bit hasty. There is no speaker which can compensate for the *innate* nonlinearity and compression of a SET amp. If he is using speakers which can repoduce the required maximum SPLs cleanly while not exceeding say 1/3 power on the WAVAC, then those speakers are large horns, and willhave their own severe problems. In short, there is *no* combination which can provide a *neutral* sound with adequate SPL capability. If you like recordings mastered on such a system, then that's your choice. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering In his own words he masters with tubes for that "yummy" sound, which pretty much leaves neutrality on the sidelines. ______ Thom |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
I said
It seems they have sufficiently done so for some who have actually tried them. Steven said Depends on what you mean by 'tried'. Listened to a system with and without them. I said I'm guessing this in reference to Steve Hoffman. He is primarily a mastering engineer. He has done very little recording. IME his work has been consistantly excellent. I doubt that he is just getting lucky. Steven said Mr. Hoffman is probably very good at makign the sorts of mastering decisions that almost certainly will affect sound of the product. That does not make his beliefs about stuff that almost certainly will not affect the sound, any more believable. How do you know the product in question will not affect the sound? Steven said In other words, suppose he swears that adjusting certain midrange frequencies is key to mastering; and suppose he also swears that a hallograph in the mastering room makes things sound better. If the Hallograph in fact does nothing whatever to the sound, his adjustments to midrange, which are indeed likely to be audible, will still be in effect. You are assuming that the product does nothing. you simply don't know that. It claims to be an acoustic room treament. Acoustic roomtreatments in general are known to have an affect on the sound. This product may or may not. But you can't judge that by looking at their advertising. Steven said *You* asked about diffusion and the Hallograph. Mr. Pierce has adequately answered your question. No, he simply took issue with their advertising. It does not tell us anything about what this product may or may not actually do. i still hold my position that I would have to try them before having an opinion about their merits. Ans, as I said before, they had better exceed my expectations at their asking price. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
S888Wheel wrote:
I said It seems they have sufficiently done so for some who have actually tried them. Steven said Depends on what you mean by 'tried'. Listened to a system with and without them. That may be sufficient for you or Mr. Hoffman, but in this case, it's not, for me. I said I'm guessing this in reference to Steve Hoffman. He is primarily a mastering engineer. He has done very little recording. IME his work has been consistantly excellent. I doubt that he is just getting lucky. Steven said Mr. Hoffman is probably very good at makign the sorts of mastering decisions that almost certainly will affect sound of the product. That does not make his beliefs about stuff that almost certainly will not affect the sound, any more believable. How do you know the product in question will not affect the sound? I was speaking hypothetically. But in the case of the Hallograph -- what makes you think it *would*? I see nothing in the pseudoscientific stuff posted to the site that indicates it would; I see nothing obvious in its construction that would make it do anything like what it's claimed to do; and I don't accept Mr. Hoffman's authority on this particukar matter, for the reason cited. So, why do YOU think it is likely to affect the sound? Steven said In other words, suppose he swears that adjusting certain midrange frequencies is key to mastering; and suppose he also swears that a hallograph in the mastering room makes things sound better. If the Hallograph in fact does nothing whatever to the sound, his adjustments to midrange, which are indeed likely to be audible, will still be in effect. You are assuming that the product does nothing. you simply don't know that. I don't *know* that paint the walls red instead of white has no effect on sound either. I don't *know* that shakti stones placed on top of your speakers make them sound better. But I can make a pretty good guess that they don't. It claims to be an acoustic room treament. Acoustic roomtreatments in general are known to have an affect on the sound. This product may or may not. But you can't judge that by looking at their advertising. So far, ALL I HAVE is the advertising, and some testimonials. Neither is in the least convincing. Nor can I come up with a way for this thing to work anything like it says it does, based on what I do know of sound. Do you believe everything you read, Scott? Do you *ever* classify any claims as unlikely, based on what you DO know? *You* asked about diffusion and the Hallograph. Mr. Pierce has adequately answered your question. No, he simply took issue with their advertising. It does not tell us anything about what this product may or may not actually do. i still hold my position that I would have to try them before having an opinion about their merits. Ans, as I said before, they had better exceed my expectations at their asking price. Would you hold off judgement on a perpetual motion device, until you'd actually seen it work? -- -S. |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
|
#18
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
|
#19
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
Nousaine wrote:
Steven Sullivan wrote: S888Wheel wrote: Frankly, it's not up to anyone to show that these devices DON'T work, it's up to Shakti to demonstrate that they do, It seems they have sufficiently done so for some who have actually tried them. Depends on what you mean by 'tried'. Indeed. I find it utterly indefensible for people to suggest that we must TRY any crackpot scheme that comes along before remaining skeptical if the proponent hasn't provided reasonable evidence that the "fix" actually fixes anything. Have you tried the "miracle carburator" or the "magic sex potion" or "miracle hair"? Or the "Call Me Now forYour Furture"? Why not? Won't you at least TRY them before being skeptical? You mean...I really *SHOULD* try sending my bank account number to Col. Michael Bindu? -- -S. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
Tom said
Indeed. I find it utterly indefensible for people to suggest that we must TRY any crackpot scheme that comes along before remaining skeptical if the proponent hasn't provided reasonable evidence that the "fix" actually fixes anything. I see you thing room treatments are nothing but crackpot schemes. We are talking about a specific product that is a room treatment. Maybe it makes a difference maybe it doesn't. Ho would you know? Tom said Have you tried the "miracle carburator" or the "magic sex potion" or "miracle hair"? Or the "Call Me Now forYour Furture"? Why not? Won't you at least TRY them before being skeptical? No. Have you tried any room treatments? |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
I said
It seems they have sufficiently done so for some who have actually tried them. Steven said Depends on what you mean by 'tried'. I said Listened to a system with and without them. Steven said That may be sufficient for you or Mr. Hoffman, but in this case, it's not, for me. How on earth would you ever consider room treatments if you don't listen to the effect with and without it? How do you position your loudspeakers? It seems that if you don't use your ears you are really limmiting your possibilities. Gee, isn't what you hear the issue? I said I'm guessing this in reference to Steve Hoffman. He is primarily a mastering engineer. He has done very little recording. IME his work has been consistantly excellent. I doubt that he is just getting lucky. Steven said Mr. Hoffman is probably very good at makign the sorts of mastering decisions that almost certainly will affect sound of the product. That does not make his beliefs about stuff that almost certainly will not affect the sound, any more believable. I said How do you know the product in question will not affect the sound? Steven said I was speaking hypothetically. I see no point in hypotheticals when talking about a real product. Steven said But in the case of the Hallograph -- what makes you think it *would*? Testimony. But make no mistake about it, testimony is good enough for an audition at best. If I were to audition these things they would have to make an improvement that I thought was worth the money. My expectations are that they would not. I could be wrong. Steven said I see nothing in the pseudoscientific stuff posted to the site that indicates it would; Do you see anything in any of the known laws of physics that says it definitely won't make a difference? Steven said I see nothing obvious in its construction that would make it do anything like what it's claimed to do; The real questions though would be...1. does it make any difference 2. Does it make a positive difference 3. Is it worth the money. Steven said and I don't accept Mr. Hoffman's authority on this particukar matter, for the reason cited. So, why do YOU think it is likely to affect the sound? Testimony is the only thing that would give me cause to think it *may* affect the sound. Like I said before, I choose to refrain from passing judgement without trying it out. Steven said In other words, suppose he swears that adjusting certain midrange frequencies is key to mastering; and suppose he also swears that a hallograph in the mastering room makes things sound better. If the Hallograph in fact does nothing whatever to the sound, his adjustments to midrange, which are indeed likely to be audible, will still be in effect. I said You are assuming that the product does nothing. you simply don't know that. Steven said I don't *know* that paint the walls red instead of white has no effect on sound either. If the paint is the same type you actually do know that. Of course you don't know how that will affect peoples' perception of the sound without testing. It may turn out that certain colors make for a more pleasurable listening experience. Some may blow this off since it has nothing to do with waht happens in the ear. Some may take advantage of it and make a more enjoyable listening envirement. Steven said I don't *know* that shakti stones placed on top of your speakers make them sound better. But I can make a pretty good guess that they don't. I thought we were talking about the hallograph? It, unlike different paint may affect the sound of the room. As I said, my expectations would be very low but that doesn't affect what they actually do or do not do. It claims to be an acoustic room treament. Acoustic roomtreatments in general are known to have an affect on the sound. This product may or may not. But you can't judge that by looking at their advertising. Steven said So far, ALL I HAVE is the advertising, and some testimonials. Exactly. you have little to go on and it seems you are ready to brand the product as snake oil. I think you may be jumping the gun. Steven said Neither is in the least convincing. Nor can I come up with a way for this thing to work anything like it says it does, based on what I do know of sound. I see. If you don't know how something works you think it doesn't work. That is what it sounds like. Steven said Do you believe everything you read, Scott? Do you *ever* classify any claims as unlikely, based on what you DO know? Sure. But I know the difference between "unlikely" and "definitely not true." Steven said *You* asked about diffusion and the Hallograph. Mr. Pierce has adequately answered your question. I said No, he simply took issue with their advertising. It does not tell us anything about what this product may or may not actually do. i still hold my position that I would have to try them before having an opinion about their merits. Ans, as I said before, they had better exceed my expectations at their asking price. Steven said Would you hold off judgement on a perpetual motion device, until you'd actually seen it work? Nope. But I wouldn't compare any room treatment with a claim of a perpetual motion machine. We know that some room treatments make a substantial difference. Based on that fact I am holding of on any judgement of the Hallograph. |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
I said
Have you ever compared his work to the work of others on the same recordings? Do you know whether or not you like recordings mastered on such a system or not? or do you think listening simply isn't the proper way to judge mastering skills? Stewart said As ever, you are trying to deflect attention away from the key point. No I am asking you if you are familiar with Steve Hoffmans work and if so I am asking you your opinion of it. Stewart said Hoffman has certainly produced some good-sounding recordings. I wouldn't know that. I have never heard any of his recordings. I am very familiar with his work as a mastering engineer though. Stewart said This has *nothing* to do with his preference for SET amplification, It has everything to do with it. The quality of his work is dependent on his preferences. His choice of amplifier is also dependent on those same preferences. You said " If you like recordings mastered on such a system, then that's your choice." So I simply asked what you thought of his work. I'm trying to find out if perhaps you also like recordings mastered on such a system. Stewart said indeed, his self-contradictory comments regarding 'resolution' seem to indicate that he is a pretty non-technical guy. It's rather like taking a car mechanic's opinion about how to design a Formula 1 engine. But do you or don't you like his work? If you do you like his work you like preferences. If you don't like his work you don't like his preferences. At least compared to the other engineers who have mastered the same recordings. Stewart said Frankly, when you look at his comments about why he uses tubes, I'd expect his recordings to be pretty thin and bright to compensate for that 'yummy' tube sound. Interesting that they're not. You don't suppose that he actually masters on a completely different monitoring system, do you? :-) He does. But he takes his work home and evaluates it there as well. I disagree with your opinion on the quality of some of the original recordings Steve remasters. Some of the stuff Steve has remastered did sound rather thin and bright in every other incarnation. Just listen to his remaster of the Jim Croce collection compared to any other release of the same material. I guess I need to remind you that we are not talking about "his" recordings. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
S888Wheel wrote:
I said It seems they have sufficiently done so for some who have actually tried them. Steven said Depends on what you mean by 'tried'. I said Listened to a system with and without them. Steven said That may be sufficient for you or Mr. Hoffman, but in this case, it's not, for me. How on earth would you ever consider room treatments if you don't listen to the effect with and without it? Some room treatments can be reasonably expected to affect the sound of the room. Others cannot. How do you position your loudspeakers? It seems that if you don't use your ears you are really limmiting your possibilities. Gee, isn't what you hear the issue? Yes, but that doesn't mean that *anything* is possible. No matter what Shakti ads, or Steve Hoffman, says. There's that old saying about the danger of keeping a mind *too* open.... Steven said But in the case of the Hallograph -- what makes you think it *would*? Testimony. Well, that's where we differ, as I said. But make no mistake about it, testimony is good enough for an audition at best. Not the testimony I've seen. If I were to audition these things they would have to make an improvement that I thought was worth the money. My expectations are that they would not. I could be wrong. But you're probably right. I see nothing in the pseudoscientific stuff posted to the site that indicates it would; Do you see anything in any of the known laws of physics that says it definitely won't make a difference? I wonder if anything is ever *definite* by your standards. The claim is that it *does* make a certain kind of difference. I don't see how it could do what it claims-- and someone who knows more than me about the physics involved, doesn't see it either. I'm sure if you loaded enough of the things into a room, they'd make an audible difference-- jsut as loading enough of any solid object will do so. I doubt it would be the difference claimed. Steven said I see nothing obvious in its construction that would make it do anything like what it's claimed to do; The real questions though would be...1. does it make any difference 2. Does it make a positive difference 3. Is it worth the money. So, the specific claims of the manufacturer simply don't matter to you? Steven said and I don't accept Mr. Hoffman's authority on this particukar matter, for the reason cited. So, why do YOU think it is likely to affect the sound? Testimony is the only thing that would give me cause to think it *may* affect the sound. Like I said before, I choose to refrain from passing judgement without trying it out. I choose to make an educated guess, as I would for claims of, say, the health benefits of copper bracelets or avoiding walking under ladders, despite glowing testimony from scientifically underinformed users/practitioners. You are assuming that the product does nothing. you simply don't know that. Steven said I don't *know* that paint the walls red instead of white has no effect on sound either. If the paint is the same type you actually do know that. Of course you don't know how that will affect peoples' perception of the sound without testing. It may turn out that certain colors make for a more pleasurable listening experience. Some may blow this off since it has nothing to do with waht happens in the ear. Some may take advantage of it and make a more enjoyable listening envirement. It may turn out the the effect is entirely psychological, akin to a placebo. In that case, there is NO effect on the SOUND itself. And if so, perhaps it's naughty to advertise red paint as really changing the SOUND of a room. I don't *know* that shakti stones placed on top of your speakers make them sound better. But I can make a pretty good guess that they don't. I thought we were talking about the hallograph? Made by the same company....coincidence? I think not. It, unlike different paint may affect the sound of the room. According to what principle? As I said, my expectations would be very low but that doesn't affect what they actually do or do not do. But the possibilities are not endless. So far, ALL I HAVE is the advertising, and some testimonials. Exactly. you have little to go on and it seems you are ready to brand the product as snake oil. I think you may be jumping the gun. Let's just say I am skeptical. Neither is in the least convincing. Nor can I come up with a way for this thing to work anything like it says it does, based on what I do know of sound. I see. If you don't know how something works you think it doesn't work. That is what it sounds like. I suppose there really *might* be something to those perpetual motion machines and copper bracelets....nah. Do you believe everything you read, Scott? Do you *ever* classify any claims as unlikely, based on what you DO know? Sure. But I know the difference between "unlikely" and "definitely not true." Again, do you require firsthand experience in every case, to make the call? Steven said *You* asked about diffusion and the Hallograph. Mr. Pierce has adequately answered your question. I said No, he simply took issue with their advertising. It does not tell us anything about what this product may or may not actually do. i still hold my position that I would have to try them before having an opinion about their merits. Ans, as I said before, they had better exceed my expectations at their asking price. Steven said Would you hold off judgement on a perpetual motion device, until you'd actually seen it work? Nope. But I wouldn't compare any room treatment with a claim of a perpetual motion machine. We know that some room treatments make a substantial difference. Based on that fact I am holding of on any judgement of the Hallograph. Simply bexcause it advertises itself as a 'room treatment'? -- -S. |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
|
#25
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
I said
It seems they have sufficiently done so for some who have actually tried them. Steven said Depends on what you mean by 'tried'. I said Listened to a system with and without them. Steven said That may be sufficient for you or Mr. Hoffman, but in this case, it's not, for me. I said How on earth would you ever consider room treatments if you don't listen to the effect with and without it? Steven said Some room treatments can be reasonably expected to affect the sound of the room. Others cannot. But this does not answer my question. How would you consider room treatments if you don't audition them in your listening room? I said How do you position your loudspeakers? It seems that if you don't use your ears you are really limmiting your possibilities. Gee, isn't what you hear the issue? Steven said Yes, but that doesn't mean that *anything* is possible. No matter what Shakti ads, or Steve Hoffman, says. I'm not asserting that anything is possible. I am asserting that it is possible that these devices may affect the acoustics of the room. Maybe they don't. They are a bit small but then so are tube traps, so is an RPG diffusion panel. They work. Steven said There's that old saying about the danger of keeping a mind *too* open.... There is also a saying that you can't teach an old dog new tricks. I think that would be due to closed mindedness. Healthy skepticism is not closed mindedness. If you have made up you mind about a room treatment with nothing more than a bias you may have leaped without really looking. Steven said But in the case of the Hallograph -- what makes you think it *would*? I said Testimony. Steven said Well, that's where we differ, as I said. Let me clarify. It is testimony that would make me think it might work. I hope i have been clear in saying I would want to hear it for myself and I doubt I would find the sort of effect that would cause me to buy them. I said But make no mistake about it, testimony is good enough for an audition at best. Steven said Not the testimony I've seen. There is where we differ. Maybe. I haven't looked into auditioning them. I said If I were to audition these things they would have to make an improvement that I thought was worth the money. My expectations are that they would not. I could be wrong. Steven said But you're probably right. Could be. I've been wrong enough though to reserve judgement. Steven said I see nothing in the pseudoscientific stuff posted to the site that indicates it would; I said Do you see anything in any of the known laws of physics that says it definitely won't make a difference? Steven said I wonder if anything is ever *definite* by your standards. No. It is all a matter of degree. You are a scientist don't you see things that way as well? There are some things that are pretty darned closed to definite. I don't think this is one of them for me as things stand. Steven said The claim is that it *does* make a certain kind of difference. I don't see how it could do what it claims-- It seems that you are once again saying that you don't believe it works because you don't know how it would work. Steven said and someone who knows more than me about the physics involved, doesn't see it either. He clearly doesn't like their advertising. He may not think they would make any diffeence at all but I haven't seen him say that. I certianly haven't seen him or you or anyone else explain why they can't make a difference. Steven said I'm sure if you loaded enough of the things into a room, they'd make an audible difference-- jsut as loading enough of any solid object will do so. I doubt it would be the difference claimed. I guess I'm not so hung up on advertising prose as some others. I have played around with a lot of acoustic treatment. Most of the devices I have tried make a difference. They certainly didn't all make an improvement in my room. Bottom line is I had to listen and I was often surprised by what did work well and what didn't work well. Steven said I see nothing obvious in its construction that would make it do anything like what it's claimed to do; I said The real questions though would be...1. does it make any difference 2. Does it make a positive difference 3. Is it worth the money. Steven said So, the specific claims of the manufacturer simply don't matter to you? Of course not. If I got bent out of shape over every overstated claim in advertising I wouldn't be buying much. Did the claim perfect sound forever give you cause to not buy CDs? No, I don't get worked up over a sales pitch. An overstated sales pitch should not cause one to not consider a product that may be an improvement IMO. Think about it, would any of us buy speakers at all if we demanded that they be as good as the manufacturer claimed them to be? Steven said and I don't accept Mr. Hoffman's authority on this particukar matter, for the reason cited. So, why do YOU think it is likely to affect the sound? I said Testimony is the only thing that would give me cause to think it *may* affect the sound. Like I said before, I choose to refrain from passing judgement without trying it out. Steven said I choose to make an educated guess, What, in your education, causes you to guess these things can't improve the sound of a room? Steven said as I would for claims of, say, the health benefits of copper bracelets or avoiding walking under ladders, despite glowing testimony from scientifically underinformed users/practitioners. You don't have to be a scientist to know it is a bad idea to walk under a ladder. You see, it's this rabbid skepticism that can cause one to throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water. Walk under enough ladders and you will get hurt. It won't be magic either. I said You are assuming that the product does nothing. you simply don't know that. Steven said Steven said I don't *know* that paint the walls red instead of white has no effect on sound either. I said If the paint is the same type you actually do know that. Of course you don't know how that will affect peoples' perception of the sound without testing. It may turn out that certain colors make for a more pleasurable listening experience. Some may blow this off since it has nothing to do with waht happens in the ear. Some may take advantage of it and make a more enjoyable listening envirement. Steven said It may turn out the the effect is entirely psychological, akin to a placebo. In that case, there is NO effect on the SOUND itself. And if so, perhaps it's naughty to advertise red paint as really changing the SOUND of a room. And it may turn out that it's physical properties may affect the sound in the room in a favorable way. We know that different colors of the same paint on the wall wont do that. That was the main point. Steven said I don't *know* that shakti stones placed on top of your speakers make them sound better. But I can make a pretty good guess that they don't. I said I thought we were talking about the hallograph? Steven said Made by the same company....coincidence? I think not. Naturally. Guilt by association. This is not good speticism IMO it is simply prejudice. Do you assume that cartridges from audioquest don't work because they sell expensive cables? Hey didn't Dunlavy make expensive cables too? I said It, unlike different paint may affect the sound of the room. Steven said According to what principle? There is no doubt that it will reflect sound and absorb sound in a way that is different than nothing at all. I'm pretty sure the hue of paint will not change the reflective,and absobtive properties of the wall it sits on. At this point I give up. Believe what you want. I really don't care. There comes a point where one realizes why this is a small club. |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
|
#27
|
|||
|
|||
SOTA vinyl mastering
It has been proven that different colors of paint in a room can effect a
person's mood. This mood change could also effect how they perceive sound. In the case of the hallograph, properly placing it COULD make it necessary to move the speakers or some furniture. This could result in a change in sound which would mistakenly be attributed to the device. -MIKE |
Reply |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Simply Vinyl | Audio Opinions | |||
Vinyl Recording | High End Audio | |||
Ripping From Vinyl | General | |||
The Death of Vinyl? | Audio Opinions | |||
People that have or do listen to both Vinyl and Cd: Basic survey/poll | Audio Opinions |