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Chu Gai Chu Gai is offline
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Any thoughts on what's presented in this link?
http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm

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Chu Gai wrote:
Any thoughts on what's presented in this link?
http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm


All fine, except the drivel about 'electrical burn-in".

geoff


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Chu Gai wrote:

Any thoughts on what's presented in this link?
http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm


Most of it is utter ********.

A driver does indeed 'loosen up' a bit in the first few hours of use however
with most likely the greatest effect in the low bass. See their results for Fs.
A little like 'running in' a car engine.

There may well be something to it in having an extended 'running in' too
including at quite high power levels. Note that running in a car engine is not
dissimilar again. Take it easy at first and then carefully run it up and down
through its performance range.

Graham


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Geoff wrote:

Chu Gai wrote:
Any thoughts on what's presented in this link?
http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm


All fine, except the drivel about 'electrical burn-in".


Quite !

The idea that capacitors and wire needing 'burn in' is the kind of berserk
******** that's all too common from the audiophools.

Graham

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Eeyore wrote:
Geoff wrote:

Chu Gai wrote:
Any thoughts on what's presented in this link?
http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm


All fine, except the drivel about 'electrical burn-in".


Quite !

The idea that capacitors and wire needing 'burn in' is the kind of
berserk ******** that's all too common from the audiophools.


Not to mention 'wire and voice-coils'.

geoff




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James Lehman James Lehman is offline
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The temperature of the driver can cause a lot of difference in the stiffness
of the suspension. A voice coil can be quite a heater. I'm not sure I would
want to rely on that though. If you have the means to measure Fs accurately,
try measuring it after the driver has been in the freezer for a while. The
measure it again, after it warms up.

James. )


"Chu Gai" wrote in message
ups.com...
Any thoughts on what's presented in this link?
http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm



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James Lehman wrote:

The temperature of the driver can cause a lot of difference in the stiffness
of the suspension. A voice coil can be quite a heater. I'm not sure I would
want to rely on that though. If you have the means to measure Fs accurately,
try measuring it after the driver has been in the freezer for a while. The
measure it again, after it warms up.


All such measurements should be made at room temp after 'temperature
equalisation'

Incidentally UK pro-audio louspeaker manufacturer quotes Thiele-Small parameters
thus......

Notes
3. Thiele - Small Parameters follow a 300 Watt preconditioning period.
http://www.precisiondevices.co.uk/as...ds/super/8.pdf

Graham

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All such measurements should be made at room temp after 'temperature
equalisation'

Incidentally UK pro-audio louspeaker manufacturer quotes Thiele-Small

parameters
thus......

Notes
3. Thiele - Small Parameters follow a 300 Watt preconditioning period.
http://www.precisiondevices.co.uk/as...ds/super/8.pdf

Graham


Agreed. But what exactly is "room temperature"? What if your speaker is near
an air duct? All I'm saying is that of all of the things that can have a
real effect on the parameters of a woofer, temperature is a big one.

James. )



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James Lehman wrote:

All such measurements should be made at room temp after 'temperature
equalisation'

Incidentally UK pro-audio louspeaker manufacturer quotes Thiele-Small
parameters thus......

Notes
3. Thiele - Small Parameters follow a 300 Watt preconditioning period.
http://www.precisiondevices.co.uk/as...ds/super/8.pdf

Graham


Agreed. But what exactly is "room temperature"? What if your speaker is near
an air duct? All I'm saying is that of all of the things that can have a
real effect on the parameters of a woofer, temperature is a big one.


Mostly such measurements are made at 20 or 25 C.

What's an 'air duct' got to do with it ?

Graham

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What's an 'air duct' got to do with it ?

Graham


I live in Northeast Ohio. We have weather here; air conditioning, heating.
Room temperature is hardly anything constant.

James. )




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James Lehman wrote:

What's an 'air duct' got to do with it ?

Graham


I live in Northeast Ohio. We have weather here; air conditioning, heating.
Room temperature is hardly anything constant.


I see what you mean but I wouldn't expect an air duct to be wildly different.

I just got a small a/c unit myself to help with the new hotter UK summers and I
think it only goes as low as 16C.

Graham

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"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...


James Lehman wrote:

What's an 'air duct' got to do with it ?

Graham


I live in Northeast Ohio. We have weather here; air conditioning,

heating.
Room temperature is hardly anything constant.


I see what you mean but I wouldn't expect an air duct to be wildly

different.

I just got a small a/c unit myself to help with the new hotter UK summers

and I
think it only goes as low as 16C.

Graham


I've lived here all of my life. Over the years I have experienced about -22°
to +106° F. I've lived most of my life in wood houses. But I live in a brick
now. We just got foam sprayed into the walls. The house I owned before this
one was built in 1904. This one was 1909.

James. )



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Mr.T Mr.T is offline
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"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...
Any thoughts on what's presented in this link?
http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm


Most of it is utter ********.


Agreed, so why why do you then say.....

A driver does indeed 'loosen up' a bit in the first few hours of use

however
with most likely the greatest effect in the low bass. See their results

for Fs.
A little like 'running in' a car engine.


Except a car engine stays that way, whereas the speaker will "stiffen" up
again when unused.
So maybe it's more like just bringing a car engine up to normal operating
temperature, rather than running it in.

There may well be something to it in having an extended 'running in' too
including at quite high power levels. Note that running in a car engine is

not
dissimilar again. Take it easy at first and then carefully run it up and

down
through its performance range.


A car engine actually wears metal surfaces. A speaker does not, and I can
see no proof for carefully running a speaker up and down it's range, other
than to establish what it's performance limits are without blowing it up.
Those limits are not likely to increase with time, more likely the reverse.

MrT.


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"James Lehman" wrote in message
...
Agreed. But what exactly is "room temperature"?


For the purposes of measurement procedure it is usually accepted as a
constant 20 degC - 23degC. Humidity must also be fixed.
Of course *anything* can be used, IF it is accurately specified, and not
governed by any accepted test procedure you are claiming to follow.

The thing about speaker measurements is that they are rarely done
accurately, and *very rarely* provide proper test conditions or uncertainty
calculations.
A large mountain of salt is often required to accept most figures quoted.

MrT.





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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u...

"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...
Any thoughts on what's presented in this link?
http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm


Most of it is utter ********.


Agreed, so why why do you then say.....


A driver does indeed 'loosen up' a bit in the first few hours of use
however
with most likely the greatest effect in the low bass. See their results
for Fs.
A little like 'running in' a car engine.


Most of the changes happen in the first few seconds, and tend to reverse
themselves when the speaker is not used for a while.

But back to the claim that the posted URL points to ********.

Let's take some opening paragraphs:

"Typical observations regarding speaker burn in involves an opening up or
relaxing of the presentation."

Well its true among a few audiophiles, its not a reliably observable effect,
and most people don't notice this sort of thing unless they are "educated"
to.

" Vocals will appear less strained or congested."

********, what little that happens is in the bass.

"The sound smooths out."

If anything happens, the bass becomes less smooth.

"Bass response appears cleaner, tighter, less distorted, and even deeper."

Pretty much the opposite of what happens.

"These same observations are reported day in and day out by people all over
the world and is very consistent."

Well yes, the evangelists of the break-in myth have pretty well spread all
over the world. But the consistency is not there because break-in is mostly
only discussed among high end audiophiles.

"Still there are those who claim that it is the listener that does the
burning in as one gets used to the sound."

Mainly because this is the far stronger effect.

"Funny thing is that if a speaker has a bright, edgy, or fatiguing sound to
it, you will be more fatigued the longer that you listen to it not less
fatigued the longer you listen."

A true statement, but mostly irrelevant to break-in. I've never seen a
speaker stop being bright or edgy due to true physical break-in. The highs
are pretty much unaffected by break in.




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Chu Gai Chu Gai is offline
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I think the measurements were made on a single driver. If one were to
obtain several drivers, how much would the measurements vary? IOW, does
anyone know what's the inherent variability due to manufacturing,
realizing that it probably differs to some degree. How much variance
for say a woofer would be considered acceptable?

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Chu Gai wrote:

I think the measurements were made on a single driver. If one were to
obtain several drivers, how much would the measurements vary? IOW, does
anyone know what's the inherent variability due to manufacturing,
realizing that it probably differs to some degree. How much variance
for say a woofer would be considered acceptable?


I just replaced a driver in an SR cabinet.

The 'new driver' had 4.1 Ohms DC resistance and the 'old' one had 4.8.
Manufacturing tolerances I imagine.

Graham


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Laurence Payne Laurence Payne is offline
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On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:15:00 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:

I just replaced a driver in an SR cabinet.

The 'new driver' had 4.1 Ohms DC resistance and the 'old' one had 4.8.
Manufacturing tolerances I imagine.


Did the old one measure 4.8 ohm when it was installed, or when it had
to be replaced?
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James Lehman wrote:
I live in Northeast Ohio. We have weather here; air conditioning, heating.
Room temperature is hardly anything constant.


Actually, the term "room temperature" IS fairly constant. It's
not the temperature at any given moment of any given room,
as you seem to infer in earlier posts, but refers to a de facto
standard. A google search of "room temperature" does NOT,
as implied, bringh forth hugely varying results, e.g.:

"Room temperature, in common usage, is taken to be
roughly 20-25 degrees Celsius (68-77 degrees
Fahrenheit, 528-532 Rankine, or 293-295 kelvin)."

"nominal room temperature is 72 degrees Fahrenheit,
22 degrees Celsius)"

And there are many, many more references that suggest the
same. One sees reference to "room temperature super-
conductors" and th like, and they all refer to the general range
of about 21C or 70F, with a small variance thereabouts.

More accurate would be to use what's refered to a "STP,"
or Standard Temperature and Pressure, which is defined
as 20 celsius and 1 standard atmosphere.

But, to those experts in the field of loudspeaker and
acoustics and those familiar with the concepts all
understand the term "room temperature" to mean
20-22 C. I have never once heard an argument among
practitioners about one person's concept or room
temperature vs another's.

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James Lehman James Lehman is offline
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wrote in message
ups.com...

James Lehman wrote:
I live in Northeast Ohio. We have weather here; air conditioning,

heating.
Room temperature is hardly anything constant.


Actually, the term "room temperature" IS fairly constant. It's
not the temperature at any given moment of any given room,
as you seem to infer in earlier posts, but refers to a de facto
standard. A google search of "room temperature" does NOT,
as implied, bringh forth hugely varying results, e.g.:

"Room temperature, in common usage, is taken to be
roughly 20-25 degrees Celsius (68-77 degrees
Fahrenheit, 528-532 Rankine, or 293-295 kelvin)."

"nominal room temperature is 72 degrees Fahrenheit,
22 degrees Celsius)"

And there are many, many more references that suggest the
same. One sees reference to "room temperature super-
conductors" and th like, and they all refer to the general range
of about 21C or 70F, with a small variance thereabouts.

More accurate would be to use what's refered to a "STP,"
or Standard Temperature and Pressure, which is defined
as 20 celsius and 1 standard atmosphere.

But, to those experts in the field of loudspeaker and
acoustics and those familiar with the concepts all
understand the term "room temperature" to mean
20-22 C. I have never once heard an argument among
practitioners about one person's concept or room
temperature vs another's.



Well that's just dandy for all of us in this group who listen to test tones
in a climate controlled anechoic chamber. I personally listen to music in my
basement. And my speakers are near an external wall.

The point I am trying to make is this... Sure, you can make your test
situation as perfect as possible. And then there is the real, everyday use
of the speaker system.

James. )



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James Lehman wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

James Lehman wrote:
I live in Northeast Ohio. We have weather here; air conditioning,

heating.
Room temperature is hardly anything constant.


Actually, the term "room temperature" IS fairly constant. It's
not the temperature at any given moment of any given room,
as you seem to infer in earlier posts, but refers to a de facto
standard. A google search of "room temperature" does NOT,
as implied, bringh forth hugely varying results, e.g.:

"Room temperature, in common usage, is taken to be
roughly 20-25 degrees Celsius (68-77 degrees
Fahrenheit, 528-532 Rankine, or 293-295 kelvin)."

"nominal room temperature is 72 degrees Fahrenheit,
22 degrees Celsius)"

And there are many, many more references that suggest the
same. One sees reference to "room temperature super-
conductors" and th like, and they all refer to the general range
of about 21C or 70F, with a small variance thereabouts.

More accurate would be to use what's refered to a "STP,"
or Standard Temperature and Pressure, which is defined
as 20 celsius and 1 standard atmosphere.

But, to those experts in the field of loudspeaker and
acoustics and those familiar with the concepts all
understand the term "room temperature" to mean
20-22 C. I have never once heard an argument among
practitioners about one person's concept or room
temperature vs another's.


Well that's just dandy for all of us in this group who
listen to test tones in a climate controlled anechoic
chamber. I personally listen to music in my
basement. And my speakers are near an external wall.


Hmm, I know of no one who, according to you, "listens
to test tones in a climate controlled anechoic chamber."
Perhaps you do and that's who you should address
your comments to.

As to myself, I listen to my system in a climate controlled
room. That room has a thermostat in it, and otherwise,
I can maintain the temperature to within about 2C of the
set temperature. Perhaps you have heard of such devices?

The point I am trying to make is this... Sure, you can
make your test situation as perfect as possible. And
then there is the real, everyday use of the speaker
system.


In that real world, which is apprently different than the one
you inhabit, people easily control their environment to
within quite reasonable limits.

But, beyond that, your comments and inferences about
there being no accepted value for room temperature is
simply at odds with a rather large body of data.

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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Laurence Payne wrote:

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:15:00 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:

I just replaced a driver in an SR cabinet.

The 'new driver' had 4.1 Ohms DC resistance and the 'old' one had 4.8.
Manufacturing tolerances I imagine.


Did the old one measure 4.8 ohm when it was installed, or when it had
to be replaced?


The 'old' ones ( there were 2 of them ) both measured 4.8 Ohms when I checked it
out after some years of use.

Graham


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wrote in message
ups.com...

James Lehman wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

James Lehman wrote:
I live in Northeast Ohio. We have weather here; air conditioning,

heating.
Room temperature is hardly anything constant.

Actually, the term "room temperature" IS fairly constant. It's
not the temperature at any given moment of any given room,
as you seem to infer in earlier posts, but refers to a de facto
standard. A google search of "room temperature" does NOT,
as implied, bringh forth hugely varying results, e.g.:

"Room temperature, in common usage, is taken to be
roughly 20-25 degrees Celsius (68-77 degrees
Fahrenheit, 528-532 Rankine, or 293-295 kelvin)."

"nominal room temperature is 72 degrees Fahrenheit,
22 degrees Celsius)"

And there are many, many more references that suggest the
same. One sees reference to "room temperature super-
conductors" and th like, and they all refer to the general range
of about 21C or 70F, with a small variance thereabouts.

More accurate would be to use what's refered to a "STP,"
or Standard Temperature and Pressure, which is defined
as 20 celsius and 1 standard atmosphere.

But, to those experts in the field of loudspeaker and
acoustics and those familiar with the concepts all
understand the term "room temperature" to mean
20-22 C. I have never once heard an argument among
practitioners about one person's concept or room
temperature vs another's.


Well that's just dandy for all of us in this group who
listen to test tones in a climate controlled anechoic
chamber. I personally listen to music in my
basement. And my speakers are near an external wall.


Hmm, I know of no one who, according to you, "listens
to test tones in a climate controlled anechoic chamber."
Perhaps you do and that's who you should address
your comments to.

As to myself, I listen to my system in a climate controlled
room. That room has a thermostat in it, and otherwise,
I can maintain the temperature to within about 2C of the
set temperature. Perhaps you have heard of such devices?

The point I am trying to make is this... Sure, you can
make your test situation as perfect as possible. And
then there is the real, everyday use of the speaker
system.


In that real world, which is apprently different than the one
you inhabit, people easily control their environment to
within quite reasonable limits.

But, beyond that, your comments and inferences about
there being no accepted value for room temperature is
simply at odds with a rather large body of data.



Does anyone else see what a boob this guy is?

James. )
















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Laurence Payne wrote:
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:15:00 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

I just replaced a driver in an SR cabinet.

The 'new driver' had 4.1 Ohms DC resistance and the 'old' one had 4.8.
Manufacturing tolerances I imagine.


Did the old one measure 4.8 ohm when it was installed, or when it had
to be replaced?


Usually, when a speaker has to be replaced the DC resistance is infinite.

YMMV.

//Walt
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"Walt" wrote in message
...
Laurence Payne wrote:
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:15:00 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

I just replaced a driver in an SR cabinet.

The 'new driver' had 4.1 Ohms DC resistance and the 'old' one had 4.8.
Manufacturing tolerances I imagine.


Did the old one measure 4.8 ohm when it was installed, or when it had
to be replaced?


Usually, when a speaker has to be replaced the DC resistance is infinite.

YMMV.

//Walt


Not if you drop it on the floor and the pole piece gets knocked out.

James. )



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Walt wrote:

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:15:00 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

I just replaced a driver in an SR cabinet.

The 'new driver' had 4.1 Ohms DC resistance and the 'old' one had 4.8.
Manufacturing tolerances I imagine.


Did the old one measure 4.8 ohm when it was installed, or when it had
to be replaced?


Usually, when a speaker has to be replaced the DC resistance is infinite.


In this case the suspension was damaged.

Graham

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