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Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 5th 20, 06:04 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
Paul[_21_]
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Posts: 9
Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONEof the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 03:12:47 -0500, Paul wrote:
>
>> You need to select Stereo Mix as your sound source.
>>
>> +-----+
>> Mic ------------| |
>> | | A D
>> LineIn ---------| Mux |---- ADC -----> to CPU
>> | |
>> Stereo_Mix +----| |
>> | +-----+
>> |
>> | From CPU -- DAC --+--> LineOut
>> } |
>> +-----------------------+

>
> Hi Paul,
> Thanks for that diagram, where just studying it is instructive.
> a. Mic in goes to the analog side of the ADC to the CPU
> b. Line in goes to the analog side of the ADC to the CPU
> c. Where LineOut & StereoMix are, somehow, intertwined
>
> Somehow, when I set Audacity to record from "Stereo Mix",
> (and if I'm playing a twitter streaming feed in my browser),
> but if I do NOT plug a "disconnected" cable into LineOut,
> then Audacity gets no signal to record.
>
> However, when I set Audacity to record from "Stereo Mix",
> (and if I'm playing a twitter streaming feed in my browser),
> and if I also plug a "disconnected" cable into LineOut,
> then Audacity DOES get a signal to record.
>
> I guess what your diagram is showing is that StereoMix is disconnected from
> LineOut unless a 1/8th-inch plug is used to "connect" them?
>
> Is that right?
>
> If so, then by putting the 1/8th-inch plug into the "LineOut" jack,
> that connects the twitter feed coming from the DAC to the
> "StereoMix" feed which then goes to the ADC to the CPU (???)
> and then from there, to Audacity as its digital input (???)
>
>> Stereo_Mix is a loopback signal. It takes a "copy"
>> of what is coming from LineOut and routes it back to the
>> input multiplexer. It's a feature in every HDAudio chip
>> (like the motherboard 48 pin square chip in the corner).

>
> I looked on my motherboard but don't see a 48-pin square chip in any of the
> corners, but I think I'm getting your point that the "StereoMix" is a
> loopback of LineOut to the ADC (and then to Audacity).
>
>> Thus, to record streaming audio, that audio going out
>> the analog speaker connector, you need to select
>> Stereo_Mix as seen in Audacity.

>
> I did select "Stereo Mix" since all the tutorials suggested that
> o But I didn't know why
>
> The choices I have in Audacity a
> o For Host [MME] (Microsoft Multimedia Environment)
> Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Microsoft Sound Mapper]
> o For Host [Windows DirectSound]
> Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Primary Sound Capture Driver]
> o For Host [WASAPI] (Windows Audio Session API)
> Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Digital Output loopback] or [Speakers]
>
> The good news is that they all have "Stereo Mix" as a choice.
>
>> Any mixer setting
>> on Record block (Record in Windows icon in corner),
>> the Stereo_Mix has to be turned up enough to hear it.

>
> I don't understand that statement.
>
>> Remember that picture I made yesterday ? It had
>> a picture of Stereo_Mix in it for a reason. That
>> wasn't a lark on my part. The Stereo_Mix is part
>> of your request for recording audio from a Youtube
>> session, without using youtube-dl and "cheating"
>> to get it. We have to assume someday the RIAA will
>> cut off as much recording capability as possible,
>> and for a while at least, analog will work.

>
> I think I get it that "stereo mix" is a loopback of the analog signal
> _back_ into the ADC, is that what you're trying to teach me?
>
> With the 1/8th-inch plug in place, is this sequence correct yet?
> a. The digital stream comes in from the browser twitter feed
> b. That digital stream goes to the DAC preamp output
> c. That DAC preamp output goes to LineOut (to go to powered speakers)
> d. If (and only if) a 1/8th plug is plugged into LineOut
> e. Then that DAC preamp output also loops back to the ADC input
> f. Where the ADC converts the analog lineout to a digital stream
> g. Which is then fed to the "StereoMix" input of Audacity
>
>> I installed the RealTek driver over top of the
>> Microsoft driver, in order to bring back the
>> Stereo_Mix in my Win10 20H2 setup.

>
> What does the "mix" mean in the term "Stereo Mix"?
>
> I get what "stereo" means (i.e., 2 audio channels) but what's the "mix"?
> a. Does the "mix" mean a mix of the two audio channels?
> b. Or does the "mix" mean a mix of line out and line back in via loopback?
>
>> When we use that foot-long, 1/8" male to 1/8" male
>> cable for recording, it looks like this.
>>
>> +-----+
>> Mic ------------| |
>> | | A D
>> LineIn +----| Mux |---- ADC -----> to CPU
>> | | |
>> | /-| |
>> | +-----+
>> |
>> | From CPU -- DAC --+--> LineOut
>> } |
>> +-----------------------+
>> 1/8" male to 1/8" male cable
>>
>> You can use a cable to take the place of Stereo_Mix,
>> and then you'd select LineIn as your recording
>> source in Audacity. This would be the case, if
>> for example, Windows 10 buggered your Stereo_Mix
>> capability with its clumsiness and stupidity.

>
> Is that why they suggested that physical male-to-male loopback cable here?
> <https://davescomputertips.com/how-to-record-internet-audio-with-audacity/>
>
>> Not everyone has one of those cables. They
>> might come with some TV tuner card perhaps.

>
> I have an extensive cable box, like most people here.
> o It even has RS232 cables in it, and SCSI cables too.
>
> It had a 30-foot male-to-female 1/8th-inch cable & splitters
> o In addition to a male-to-male 1/8th-inch cable
>
> So I'm all set on cabling, if I need to use it
> o But luckily, just plugging the plug alone into LineOut worked!


What's needed to record the output, is a path to get
back to the input side, and to the ADC.

The Stereo_Mix method, uses a wire which is inside
the HDAudio chip. Selecting that input, is a matter
of configuring software the right way, so it will work.

Every input has a level adjustment. You are adjusting
the level to avoid overloading while recording. You adjust
the gain, so the recording is loud enough.

Take for example, you play a DVD and get a LineOut output that way.
DVDs seem to be recorded really low, like -15dB or so.
There seems to be no way to drive a lot of signal that way.

When recording that DVD with Audacity, you need to adjust
the level, for a pleasant recording. Audacity has a VU meter,
so you can see the incoming voltage level. The VU Meter is
there, so you can judge whether you've still got headroom,
for a non-distorted recording.

Inputs have mutes. Or, a level slider can be set at zero.
The effect is zero volts on input and a very quiet recording,
if either of those happen.

*******

There is no particular reason for an interaction between
LineOut/LineIn and Stereo_Mix.

When you plug the 1/8" plug into a jack, the jack has a
side contact. The side contact closure is detected on the
HDAudio chip. It generates an event to the OS. The driver
presents a prompt "Did you plug something into LineIn?"
or similar.

One of the side effects of plugging in LineIn, is it can
be used to automatically switch the input mux in front
of the ADC, so that LineIn is used. And whatever your
previous choice was, is de-selected.

The loopback path only exists for one chip choice at a time.
To record through the RealTek Stereo_Mix, means the RealTek
LineOut has to be used and playing the content on the
analog computer speakers or similar. If the sound was
going to your TV set over HDMI for example, maybe the
NVidia video card HDAudio internal to the GPU is doing that.
And there would be no "virtual wire" to get to the
RealTek ADC/Mux.

As a consequence, you have to think carefully about where
that wire is.

There is at least one "virtual cable" driver, which is a
software technique for copying the Windows (output) mixer
stream and making a "pin" of it. Then, in Audacity, the "pin"
is offered as an "input choice". The virtual cable, in a
sense, bypasses DACs and ADCs and "just gets the job done".
This would be an alternative if someday soon, Microsoft
finds a way of permanently removing the driver ability
to get at the Stereo_Mix which is a hardware feature.
From a DMCA perspective, Microsoft could also choice to
block and prevent that "virtual cable" software from
running.

Summary: Plugging in 1/8" plugs to HDAudio jacks, has
as a side effect, the "side contact" signals to the
driver, that a change has occurred. And the driver
can use this as an excuse to switch input or output
settings, by signaling these facts to the OS handling
things. Without software to receive "plug events",
nothing would happen without software interference.

The Stereo_Mix doesn't need that. It needs selecting
Stereo_Mix in Audacity, to "wire up the input". But it
also needs a signal going through the output side
of that HDAudio chip, so that the signal can be copied.

Stereo_Mix and the black wire, are two of the same.
They're a path. The black wire also tickles the side
contact on two jacks. The Stereo_Mix does not, so to get
the Stereo_Mix to work requires two GUI actions
at a minimum. Something to set up the input side.
And some operation to get a signal onto the output,
so you can copy it with a feature put there in the
HDAudio chip for this.

Paul
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  #12  
Old November 5th 20, 08:46 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 15
Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 12:04:18 -0500, Paul wrote:

> What's needed to record the output, is a path to get
> back to the input side, and to the ADC.
>
> The Stereo_Mix method, uses a wire which is inside
> the HDAudio chip. Selecting that input, is a matter
> of configuring software the right way, so it will work.
>
> Every input has a level adjustment. You are adjusting
> the level to avoid overloading while recording. You adjust
> the gain, so the recording is loud enough.
>
> Take for example, you play a DVD and get a LineOut output that way.
> DVDs seem to be recorded really low, like -15dB or so.
> There seems to be no way to drive a lot of signal that way.
>
> When recording that DVD with Audacity, you need to adjust
> the level, for a pleasant recording. Audacity has a VU meter,
> so you can see the incoming voltage level. The VU Meter is
> there, so you can judge whether you've still got headroom,
> for a non-distorted recording.
>
> Inputs have mutes. Or, a level slider can be set at zero.
> The effect is zero volts on input and a very quiet recording,
> if either of those happen.
>
> *******
>
> There is no particular reason for an interaction between
> LineOut/LineIn and Stereo_Mix.
>
> When you plug the 1/8" plug into a jack, the jack has a
> side contact. The side contact closure is detected on the
> HDAudio chip. It generates an event to the OS. The driver
> presents a prompt "Did you plug something into LineIn?"
> or similar.
>
> One of the side effects of plugging in LineIn, is it can
> be used to automatically switch the input mux in front
> of the ADC, so that LineIn is used. And whatever your
> previous choice was, is de-selected.
>
> The loopback path only exists for one chip choice at a time.
> To record through the RealTek Stereo_Mix, means the RealTek
> LineOut has to be used and playing the content on the
> analog computer speakers or similar. If the sound was
> going to your TV set over HDMI for example, maybe the
> NVidia video card HDAudio internal to the GPU is doing that.
> And there would be no "virtual wire" to get to the
> RealTek ADC/Mux.
>
> As a consequence, you have to think carefully about where
> that wire is.
>
> There is at least one "virtual cable" driver, which is a
> software technique for copying the Windows (output) mixer
> stream and making a "pin" of it. Then, in Audacity, the "pin"
> is offered as an "input choice". The virtual cable, in a
> sense, bypasses DACs and ADCs and "just gets the job done".
> This would be an alternative if someday soon, Microsoft
> finds a way of permanently removing the driver ability
> to get at the Stereo_Mix which is a hardware feature.
> From a DMCA perspective, Microsoft could also choice to
> block and prevent that "virtual cable" software from
> running.
>
> Summary: Plugging in 1/8" plugs to HDAudio jacks, has
> as a side effect, the "side contact" signals to the
> driver, that a change has occurred. And the driver
> can use this as an excuse to switch input or output
> settings, by signaling these facts to the OS handling
> things. Without software to receive "plug events",
> nothing would happen without software interference.
>
> The Stereo_Mix doesn't need that. It needs selecting
> Stereo_Mix in Audacity, to "wire up the input". But it
> also needs a signal going through the output side
> of that HDAudio chip, so that the signal can be copied.
>
> Stereo_Mix and the black wire, are two of the same.
> They're a path. The black wire also tickles the side
> contact on two jacks. The Stereo_Mix does not, so to get
> the Stereo_Mix to work requires two GUI actions
> at a minimum. Something to set up the input side.
> And some operation to get a signal onto the output,
> so you can copy it with a feature put there in the
> HDAudio chip for this.


All the while I thought the tutorials were missing only _one_ conditional
"if then else" check, without knowing there are (at least) five of them!

I've read your response four or five times, like a kindergarten kid
watching a Disney movie, where each time I get a little bit more of what
you're trying to inform me (as all this "Stereo Mix" stuff is new to me).

This is perhaps the _simplest_ definition of "Stereo Mix" I've found:
"Stereo Mix allows you to record exactly what was being output to your
speakers, without going through any analog/digital conversion."
<https://mediarealm.com.au/articles/stereo-mix-setup-windows-10/>

But Lord knows I've been scouring the Internet for better definitions:
<https://mediarealm.com.au/articles/stereo-mix-setup-windows-10/>
<https://winbuzzer.com/2020/04/25/how-to-record-windows-system-audio-with-stereo-mix-xcxwbt/>
<https://www.howtogeek.com/howto/39532/how-to-enable-stereo-mix-in-windows-7-to-record-audio/>

*It seems 5 planets need to line up for a successful stereo mix recording.*

(1)
You need to turn on app & desktop app access to the "so-called" microphone:
o Win+R > ms-settingsrivacy-microphone ==> Microphone access = on

(2)
Your audio driver must be able to enable/disable the Stereo Mix selection:
o Win+R > devmgmt.msc > Sound video & game controllers ==> Update driver
<https://www.realtek.com/en/component/zoo/category/pc-audio-codecs-high-definition-audio-codecs-software>

(3)
You need to enable Stereo Mix (apparently, disabled by default in Win10):
o Win+R > mmsys.cpl > Recording > Stereo Mix ==> Enabled

(4)
You need your recording software to be able to use Stereo Mix
o Audacity:Edit > Preferences > Devices > Recording ==> Stereo Mix

(5)
And, you need to connect the "loopback" of LineOut to enable copying:
o Plug in any 1/8-inch male plug into the lime green LineOut connector

It's in understanding that final (fifth) planet lining up that I keep
reading (and re-reading) your response, gleaning a bit more with each try.
  #13  
Old November 5th 20, 10:43 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
Paul[_21_]
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Posts: 9
Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONEof the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

Arlen Holder wrote:

> It's in understanding that final (fifth) planet lining up that I keep
> reading (and re-reading) your response, gleaning a bit more with each try.


You need a diagram of an HDAudio chip, as additional context info.

I'll find one later and post a link. I've posted
one before, just can't find it. The ones in Analog Devices
datasheets are pretty clear, for example, and you'll be
able to see the Stereo Mix in there.

Paul
  #14  
Old November 6th 20, 12:09 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 15
Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 16:43:25 -0500, Paul wrote:

> You need a diagram of an HDAudio chip, as additional context info.
>
> I'll find one later and post a link. I've posted
> one before, just can't find it. The ones in Analog Devices
> datasheets are pretty clear, for example, and you'll be
> able to see the Stereo Mix in there.


Hi Paul,
Thanks for the help and advice. You don't have to find the diagram as I
believe you. This Stereo Mix stuff was simply new to me.

But I'm no audiophile.
o I just wanted to write a tutorial for others to capture streaming audio.

That tutorial would _start_ with the five setup steps on newer Windows 10:
1. We need to turn on app & desktop app access to the "microphone"
o Win+R > ms-settingsrivacy-microphone ==> Microphone access = on/on

2. We need to ensure the audio driver can enable a "Stereo Mix" option
o Win+R > devmgmt.msc > Sound video & game controllers ==> Update driver

3. We then need to enable Stereo Mix in that Windows 10 audio driver:
o Win+R > mmsys.cpl > Recording > Stereo Mix ==> Enabled
<https://www.realtek.com/en/component/zoo/category/pc-audio-codecs-high-definition-audio-codecs-software>

4. We need to install Audacity & set the recording to "Stereo Mix"
o Audacity:Edit > Preferences > Devices > Recording ==> Stereo Mix

5. We need to also enable "loopback", which in my case is mechanical:
o Plug in any 1/8-inch male plug into the lime green LineOut connector

6. Then we can stream audio, capture it, and save it to an MP3 file.
o The 8 Best Free Online Music Streaming Services With No Limitations
<https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/7-online-music-streaming-services-restrictions/>
  #15  
Old November 6th 20, 09:09 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
~misfit~[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE ofthe extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

On 6/11/2020 8:46 am, Arlen Holder wrote:

Damn troll, just decided to block you on this group too and you were using 4 different return-to
addresses? Trolls are as trolls do.

--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
  #16  
Old November 6th 20, 11:55 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
Paul[_21_]
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Posts: 9
Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONEof the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

Paul wrote:
> Arlen Holder wrote:
>
>> It's in understanding that final (fifth) planet lining up that I keep
>> reading (and re-reading) your response, gleaning a bit more with each
>> try.

>
> You need a diagram of an HDAudio chip, as additional context info.
>
> I'll find one later and post a link. I've posted
> one before, just can't find it. The ones in Analog Devices
> datasheets are pretty clear, for example, and you'll be
> able to see the Stereo Mix in there.
>
> Paul


What's interesting (to me), is the Stereo Mix is really a mixer,
but the software doesn't allow it to be controlled that way.
Stereo Mix is much more than just LineOut.

https://i.postimg.cc/dVDTpv8G/AD1988B.gif

Use "Download original image" to see the full scale version.

The picture was twice that scale, but the site wouldn't
accept it, so I had to scale it down a bit.

The AD1988B claims to use 32-bit math (to avoid overflow),
which tells me that parts of that diagram are digital and
not analog as the "functional" diagram might claim. The
mixer is doing the summation of 8 channels of 24-bit each,
so this would be 27-bits to avoid overflow. They don't say
whether it's fixed point or float, but fixed point
would be easier for them.

The diagram is kooky, compared to how the GUI on the
computer appears and works. It could for example,
be mixing 7.1 down to stereo, but with a transformation
or what ? Perhaps the driver just says "screw it" and
passes only LineOut through.

Paul
  #17  
Old November 6th 20, 04:01 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 15
Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 05:55:52 -0500, Paul wrote:

> What's interesting (to me), is the Stereo Mix is really a mixer,
> but the software doesn't allow it to be controlled that way.
> Stereo Mix is much more than just LineOut.
> https://i.postimg.cc/dVDTpv8G/AD1988B.gif
> Use "Download original image" to see the full scale version.


Hi Paul,

Thanks for helping out so all can benefit from what you've learned, where I
just downloaded that ADI "AD1988A/AD1988B Functional Block Diagram":
o <https://i.postimg.cc/dVDTpv8G/AD1988B.gif>
Name: AD1988B.gif
Size: 79285 bytes (77 KiB)
SHA256: A0EA9DE570BBF49A89882E3B79963C39BC396D68D9F8B73CF9 E00DF2E7EE49C2

> The picture was twice that scale, but the site wouldn't
> accept it, so I had to scale it down a bit.


These are full-sized 20-page PDFs which are easier to search for keywords:
o <https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/AD1988A_1988B.pdf>
Name: AD1988A_1988B.pdf
Size: 1434129 bytes (1400 KiB)
SHA256: 899F6E7A84FF62BC6A39A501FA20446C3D4F2B4FFDF9E87741 E21019B9ABC53A

o <https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/obsolete-data-sheets/AD1988A_1988B.pdf>
Name: AD1988A_1988Ba.pdf
Size: 2092821 bytes (2043 KiB)
SHA256: 4010B5C24B910D75CC5835AC3C11D45EB5A3A55357F1FE10EB 3C82911B0191DA

> The AD1988B claims to use 32-bit math (to avoid overflow),
> which tells me that parts of that diagram are digital and
> not analog as the "functional" diagram might claim. The
> mixer is doing the summation of 8 channels of 24-bit each,
> so this would be 27-bits to avoid overflow. They don't say
> whether it's fixed point or float, but fixed point
> would be easier for them.
>
> The diagram is kooky, compared to how the GUI on the
> computer appears and works. It could for example,
> be mixing 7.1 down to stereo, but with a transformation
> or what ? Perhaps the driver just says "screw it" and
> passes only LineOut through.


I will take a look at the diagrams, but wanted you to have them also.

Notice the "Node ID 2D"
o 2D, Stereo Mix-Down, Audio mixer, Mixes the stereo L/R channels to drive MONO_OUT

But before I look, can you explain _why_ you picked _this_ particular chip?
--
FEATURES
o Ten 192 kHz DACs
o Five independent stereo DAC pairs
o 7.1 surround sound plus independent headphone
o Independent 8 kHz, 11.025 kHz, 16 kHz, 22.05 kHz, 32 kHz,
o 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz
o sample rates
o Selectable stereo mixer on outputs
o 16-, 20-, and 24-bit PCM resolution
o Six 192 kHz ADCs
o Three independent stereo ADC pairs
o Simultaneous record of up to three stereo channels
o Support for quad microphone arrays plus independent
o capture channel
o Independent 8 kHz, 11.025 kHz, 16 kHz, 22.05 kHz, 32 kHz,
o 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz
o sample rates
o 16-, 20-, and 24-bit resolution
o S/PDIF output
o 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz
o sample rates
o 16-, 20-, and 24-bit data widths
o PCM, WMA/PRO, Dolby®, AC3, and DTS® formats
o Digital PCM gain control
o Digital PCM ADC/stream mixer
o S/PDIF input
o 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz
o sample rates
o 16-, 20-, and 24-bit data widths
o PCM, WMA/PRO, Dolby, AC3, and DTS formats
o Digital PCM gain control
o Auto synchronizes to source High quality stereo CD input with GND sense
o MONO_OUT pin for internal speakers or telephony
o Retasking jack support

ENHANCED FEATURES
o Three stereo headphone amps
o AD1988A: Windows Vista Operating System Premium Logo
o compliant
o 95 dB outputs
o 90 dB audio inputs
o AD1988B: Windows Vista Premium Logo compliant and
o Dolby Master Studio compliant
o 101 dB outputs 92 dB audio inputs
o Internal 32-bit arithmetic for greater accuracy Impedance and presence detection on all jacks
o Analog PCBEEP and digital synthesis BEEP
o C/LFE channel swap
o Two general-purpose digital I/O (GPIO) pins
o 3.3 V analog and digital supplies
o Reduced support components
o Advanced power management modes
o 48-pin LQFP and LFCSP_VQ package options, Pb-free
o Supports Andrea Active Noise Reduction headphones
o Hardware volume control
o Built-in microphone gain amps
o Adjustable microphone bias pins
  #18  
Old November 6th 20, 06:20 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 15
Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

On Fri, 6 Nov 2020 15:01:46 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

> I will take a look at the diagrams, but wanted you to have them also.
>
> Notice the "Node ID 2D"
> o 2D, Stereo Mix-Down, Audio mixer, Mixes the stereo L/R channels to drive MONO_OUT
>
> But before I look, can you explain _why_ you picked _this_ particular chip?


Hi Paul,

In summary, can you point to the chip you think is that 48-pin ADI chip?
o <https://support.hp.com/doc-images/194/c02431965.jpg>

I'm not sure my motherboard even _has_ that specific ADI chip.
o But my motherboard does have three 48-pin square chips (two in the back).

My old tired eyes can't "read" the writing on the 48-pin chips on the MB.
o Nor does a photo from my cellphone show the writing clear enough to read

Nor can I find an owners manual for my motherboard
o HP system name = NY549AA-ABA p6230y Aloe
o Manufacturers name = Foxconn H-RS880-uATX 1.01

I'm "assuming" you're assuming I have that 48-pin ADI chip on the
motherboard, where here's all I can find (so far) for a manual:

How to find a diagram of your motherboard
o Win+R > msinfo32
System Model: NY549AA-ABA p6230y
BaseBoard Manufacturer: FOXCONN
BaseBoard Product: ALOE
BaseBoard Version: 1.01
Processor: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 810 Processor, 2600 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 4
Logical Processor(s)
BIOS Version/Date: American Megatrends Inc. 5.02, 8/31/2009

Google results:
o Motherboard
<https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c01925486>
<https://support.hp.com/doc-images/194/c02431965.jpg>
HP/Compaq name = Aloe
Foxconn name = H-RS880-uATX 1.01
o BIOS <https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c01997718/>
o Manuals <https://www.manualslib.com/brand/foxconn/motherboard.html>
o This says no user manual exists:
<https://digitalballs.weebly.com/h-rs880-uatx-manual.html>
<https://digitalballs.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/4/8/124848319/603470659.jpg>
o Specs <https://www.pc-specs.com/mobo/HP/HP_H-RS880-uATX_(Aloe)/1404>
o Benchmark <https://browser.geekbench.com/geekbench2/185041>
o MobileSpecs
<https://mobilespecs.net/motherboard/Foxconn/Foxconn_N-Alvorix-RS880-uATX.html>
o GAME
<https://www.game-debate.com/motherboard/index.php?mot_id=1404&motherboard=HP%20H-RS880-uATX%20(Aloe)>
o Amazon
<https://www.amazon.com/HP-Aloe-537376-001-H-RS880-uATX-Motherboard/dp/B00TUXP846>
o Amazon
<https://www.amazon.com/HP-HPE-555KR-H-RS880-UATX-AloeMotherboard-537376-001/dp/B005UF07ZI>

In summary, can you point to the chip you think is that 48-pin ADI chip?
o <https://support.hp.com/doc-images/194/c02431965.jpg>
--
Probably we should author a tutorial on how to find a motherboard manual.
  #19  
Old November 6th 20, 08:11 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
Paul[_21_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONEof the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

Arlen Holder wrote:

>
> In summary, can you point to the chip you think is that 48-pin ADI chip?
> o <https://support.hp.com/doc-images/194/c02431965.jpg>


I picked that particular chip because it's on *my* motherboard :-)

I would have an incentive to collect the sheet for it. I don't think
I have a very large collection of datasheets. Probably a few AC'97 ones
over the years.

One other thing that's interesting, is some chips have "muxes" for
Stereo_Mix but that one has a "summer", which is an entirely
different kettle of fish.

*******

c02431965.jpg

It took me roughly 3 seconds to spot it. Look for the green
dot in the lower left corner. A little bit down and to the right
a bit from that reference point, you'll find a 48 pin chip. The
chip will be square, and have 4 x 12 pins for a total of 48.
I can't see any detail though - look for a crab icon, the RealTek
icon, because they make a lot of these, all different classes
of audio. Everything from stereo to 7.1 .

HDAudio or AC'97 chips, usually have a pile of small electrolytics
used for AC coupling of signals.

There should also be a separate DC regulator, a linear, that
provides power to the chip. But it's pretty hard to clean
digital noise off a rail using a linear.

Sometimes in the PCB, you can see attempts to build
moats or put guard grounds around some of the analog
wiring. Or stick guards around the Ethernet wires,
so there is less coupling into the analog. There have been
lots of motherboards where total ignorance prevailed near
the 48 pin CODEC chip, and all sorts of mouse noises,
Ethernet noises and so on, ended up in the computer speakers.
It took quite a while for some of the motherboard companies
to become serious about the audio corner of the board.
I mean, in some cases, the interference was so bad, it
was obvious nobody ever lab-tested the audio. Or they
would not have let it ship. Motherboards are designed
three times total, with the third spin required
to be "patch wire free". Plenty of time to do an audio
test.

Paul
  #20  
Old November 7th 20, 01:18 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
Arlen Holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you really need to do!

On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 14:11:00 -0500, Paul wrote:

> I picked that particular chip because it's on *my* motherboard :-)


Oh. <slaps head> I was wondering why you had picked that chip!
o What I'm wondering is how the hell you knew it would be 48 pins square?

My Foxconn HRS880u-ATX has a bunch of 48-pin square 12x12 chips
o Where I marked each of them in a different color for you here
<https://i.postimg.cc/JhhWnjTP/Foxconn-HRS880u-ATX.jpg>

My orange U10 chip you fingered definitely says Realtek on it:
o But I think that's the Ethernet controller RTL911DL but I'm not sure
<https://i.postimg.cc/ZKrmDbBF/48pinu10.jpg>

Which, I think, may be this PCI Ethernet Controller chip:
<http://www.image.micros.com.pl/_dane_techniczne_auto/uirtl8111dl.pdf>

> I would have an incentive to collect the sheet for it. I don't think
> I have a very large collection of datasheets. Probably a few AC'97 ones
> over the years.
>
> One other thing that's interesting, is some chips have "muxes" for
> Stereo_Mix but that one has a "summer", which is an entirely
> different kettle of fish.
>
> *******
>
> c02431965.jpg
>
> It took me roughly 3 seconds to spot it. Look for the green
> dot in the lower left corner. A little bit down and to the right
> a bit from that reference point, you'll find a 48 pin chip. The
> chip will be square, and have 4 x 12 pins for a total of 48.
> I can't see any detail though - look for a crab icon, the RealTek
> icon, because they make a lot of these, all different classes
> of audio. Everything from stereo to 7.1 .


I found the crab icon on my blue 48-pin 12x12 chip in the very corner.
o I think the number is ALC888S (with also date codes 97U19S1 G932C2).
<https://i.postimg.cc/44HsVbX0/48pinu6.jpg>

Which I think may be this sound controller chip:
<https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/ALC888S_DataSheet_1.2.pdf>

>
> HDAudio or AC'97 chips, usually have a pile of small electrolytics
> used for AC coupling of signals.
>
> There should also be a separate DC regulator, a linear, that
> provides power to the chip. But it's pretty hard to clean
> digital noise off a rail using a linear.
>
> Sometimes in the PCB, you can see attempts to build
> moats or put guard grounds around some of the analog
> wiring. Or stick guards around the Ethernet wires,
> so there is less coupling into the analog. There have been
> lots of motherboards where total ignorance prevailed near
> the 48 pin CODEC chip, and all sorts of mouse noises,
> Ethernet noises and so on, ended up in the computer speakers.
> It took quite a while for some of the motherboard companies
> to become serious about the audio corner of the board.
> I mean, in some cases, the interference was so bad, it
> was obvious nobody ever lab-tested the audio. Or they
> would not have let it ship. Motherboards are designed
> three times total, with the third spin required
> to be "patch wire free". Plenty of time to do an audio
> test.
>
> Paul


What I'm wondering is how the hell you knew it would be 48 pins square?
 




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