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#1
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16" discs - need player
Are there any turntables that could possibly play a 16" disc that are
not rare and/or expensive? Even if they coulnd't play at the right speed or sound great or even reach the entire length of the disc, I would still be happy. All I've been able to find are $1500 antiques, something I will never have. |
#2
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16" discs - need player
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#3
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16" discs - need player
Are there any turntables that could possibly play a 16" disc that are not rare and/or expensive? ** Of course it is possible - I could easily play one on my turntable. Even if they coulnd't play at the right speed or sound great or even reach the entire length of the disc, I would still be happy. ** Most 16 inch discs are 33.3 rpm so play on a standard 12 inch hi-fi turntable table - with 2 inchs of overhang. What you have to find is a turntable / arm combination where the arm's base is spaced away from the platter by at least 2 inches - not uncommon at all with the better quality arms made. ........ Phil |
#4
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16" discs - need player
In article ,
"Phil Allison" wrote: Are there any turntables that could possibly play a 16" disc that are not rare and/or expensive? ** Of course it is possible - I could easily play one on my turntable. Even if they coulnd't play at the right speed or sound great or even reach the entire length of the disc, I would still be happy. ** Most 16 inch discs are 33.3 rpm Actually, 16" disks were in use long before 33 1/3 RPM was a common speed. Their main feature was that, at 78 RPM, an entire fifteen-minute radio show could be placed on one disk. That's the way radio shows were distributed for many years. Isaac |
#5
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16" discs - need player
Thanks to those who helped answer my question, it really did help.
Someday I'll find one or afford the new turntable that I want. It's funny to see how angry some people can get on newsgroups, great entertainment, for a minute or 2 anyway. |
#6
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16" discs - need player/33 1/3 speed
Humble correction to this premise;
33 1/3 has been a recording standard for over 75 years long before the lp was ever developed. Original movie sound was recorded on a 16" disc playing at 33 1/3, not recorded on the film. I have several of these early sound movie sound discs in my collection. Radio stations had programs supplied at 33 1/3 on 16" discs from the late 20s through the late 40s. There were many companies producing daily and weekly programs for distribution across the country. Many of these were 15 minute programs other producers specialized in music for radio stations, usually 6-8 cuts per side. Just as early electrical 78s had a basic recording curve so did the transcriptions. Most did not require any treble roll off they did require bass boost. RCA was about the first to introduce a recording curve with treble roll off with their "Orthocoustic" recording process to reduce surface noise on play back by reducing the hi end. The Next curve was developed by National Association of Broadcasters in the 40s, this was the NAB curve which as it turns out is very close to RIAA curve used by modern LPs. 16" discs for radio were never recorded at 78rpm. ** Most 16 inch discs are 33.3 rpm Actually, 16" disks were in use long before 33 1/3 RPM was a common speed. Their main feature was that, at 78 RPM, an entire fifteen-minute radio show could be placed on one disk. That's the way radio shows were distributed for many years. Isaac |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
Are there any turntables that could possibly play a 16" disc that are not rare and/or expensive? ** Look out for something like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/VINTAGE-CONNO...QQcmdZViewItem ........ Phil |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
Thank you, I now know it is possible. Others have told me it's not
possible. I have not found one myself that has the extra 2". What kind do you have? Phil Allison wrote: Are there any turntables that could possibly play a 16" disc that are not rare and/or expensive? ** Look out for something like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/VINTAGE-CONNO...QQcmdZViewItem ....... Phil |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
Thank you, I now know it is possible. Others have told me it's not possible. ** Personages with very little imagination. I have not found one myself that has the extra 2. ** Most turntables will allow the playing of a 15 inch disc. So you only need to find one with an extra 1/2 inch of clearance. What kind do you have? ** Its JH inch motor & table with a Formula 4 arm all mounted on 1 inch thick Perspex and sitting on 3 beehive springs. Looks roughly the same as the one in the ebay link. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/VINTAGE-CONNO...QQcmdZViewItem...... Phil |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
So you don't know for a fact that it is possible, it sounds like you're
only speculating like myself. Phil Allison wrote: Thank you, I now know it is possible. Others have told me it's not possible. ** Personages with very little imagination. I have not found one myself that has the extra 2. ** Most turntables will allow the playing of a 15 inch disc. So you only need to find one with an extra 1/2 inch of clearance. What kind do you have? ** Its JH inch motor & table with a Formula 4 arm all mounted on 1 inch thick Perspex and sitting on 3 beehive springs. Looks roughly the same as the one in the ebay link. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/VINTAGE-CONNO...QQcmdZViewItem...... Phil |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
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#12
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
** GROPER TROLL ALERT !!! So you don't know for a fact that it is possible, it sounds like you're only speculating like myself. ** Huh ???? What top posted crapology is this ???? My turntable *will* allow a 16 inch LP to sit on the platter. The arm *will* allow the PU to play it. There are similar turntable set ups around. What the **** else did you want to know ?? ......... Phil Thank you, I now know it is possible. Others have told me it's not possible. ** Personages with very little imagination. I have not found one myself that has the extra 2. ** Most turntables will allow the playing of a 15 inch disc. So you only need to find one with an extra 1/2 inch of clearance. What kind do you have? ** Its JH inch motor & table with a Formula 4 arm all mounted on 1 inch thick Perspex and sitting on 3 beehive springs. Looks roughly the same as the one in the ebay link. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/VINTAGE-CONNO...QQcmdZViewItem |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
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#14
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
"isw" Even if you find a 'table, you may still have some difficulties. If the disk(s) were intended for radio play, they may be vertical recordings (needle goes up and down instead of back and forth), ** Err - so modern stereo PUs cannot move vertically? Surely you jest. And may play "inside out", ** The PU will not care about that either. which was actually a smart way to do things, since the best frequency response and dynamic range were available at the end of the piece, instead of the beginning. ** ********. .......... Phil |
#15
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16" discs - need player
On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 16:10:06 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote: which was actually a smart way to do things, since the best frequency response and dynamic range were available at the end of the piece, instead of the beginning. ** ********. Are you disputing that the higher linear speed makes a difference? Or that it matters which end of the program gets the benefit? |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
In article ,
"Phil Allison" wrote: "isw" Even if you find a 'table, you may still have some difficulties. If the disk(s) were intended for radio play, they may be vertical recordings (needle goes up and down instead of back and forth), ** Err - so modern stereo PUs cannot move vertically? Surely you jest. Not at all. A "modern" pickup stylus is not the right size to get the best results from older "non-microgroove" recordings. And, a modern "stereo" cartridge will pick up lateral rumble and other noises just fine, although they contribute nothing good to the playback. And may play "inside out", ** The PU will not care about that either. If you don't know it, you won't be able to play the disk, though. And playing them on a changer will be difficult at best. which was actually a smart way to do things, since the best frequency response and dynamic range were available at the end of the piece, instead of the beginning. ** ********. Sounds like you're not familiar with "radial equalization" as used in disk cutting? The whole purpose of it is to (attempt to) compensate for exactly that problem. One revolution of the disk takes the same amount of time, no matter the groove diameter. The outside grooves are around three times as long as the inside ones (more on a sixteen inch disk), so the waveform is stretched out by that factor -- the "wiggles" have more room to wiggle, so high frequency response is much better, any loud passages don't overcut anywhere near as bad. Since for much music, the loudest (and most complex) part occurs near the end, having more groove length to use per unit time makes for better quality. It's well known in the recording industry. Isaac |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
"is" = Ignorant Stupid ****** Even if you find a 'table, you may still have some difficulties. If the disk(s) were intended for radio play, they may be vertical recordings (needle goes up and down instead of back and forth), ** Err - so modern stereo PUs cannot move vertically? Surely you jest. Not at all. ** Ok - so now I KNOW you are a complete ****wit. A "modern" pickup stylus is not the right size to get the best results from older "non-microgroove" recordings. ** The correct size stylus are available. A separate issue from the OP's query. And, a modern "stereo" cartridge will pick up lateral rumble and other noises just fine, although they contribute nothing good to the playback. ** When the L and R channels are wired *out of phase* for vertical operation, all lateral ( ie mono) output is cancelled. Basic Audio 101 - you dickhead. And may play "inside out", ** The PU will not care about that either. If you don't know it, you won't be able to play the disk, though. And playing them on a changer will be difficult at best. ** What insane drivel. which was actually a smart way to do things, since the best frequency response and dynamic range were available at the end of the piece, instead of the beginning. ** ********. Sounds like you're not familiar with "radial equalization" as used in disk cutting? ** ******** to all of your insane crapology. Go drop dead. ........ Phil |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
In article ,
"Phil Allison" wrote: --snip-- Sounds like you're not familiar with "radial equalization" as used in disk cutting? ** ******** to all of your insane crapology. Just in case you'd be interested to increase your level of knowledge so that you actually know what you're talking about, I would recommend a fine book, "Sound Recording" by John Eargle. My copy is second edition, 1980. It'll tell you as much as you could possibly want to know about the process of cutting vinyl disks -- including radial equalization. Oh, and WRT to old 16-inch disks, whether horizontal or vertical cut, they likely predate the use of RIAA equalization, so played back on a contemporary rig, they might sound a bit odd. It could take a bit of research to find out what EQ was used on any particular disk, as it varied from one manufacturer to another. Isaac |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:17:05 -0700, isw wrote:
Not at all. A "modern" pickup stylus is not the right size to get the best results from older "non-microgroove" recordings. And, a modern "stereo" cartridge will pick up lateral rumble and other noises just fine, although they contribute nothing good to the playback. Why all those quote marks? They're all standard words, used in standard context with standard meaning? Just asking :-) |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
In article ,
Laurence Payne lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote: On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:17:05 -0700, isw wrote: Not at all. A "modern" pickup stylus is not the right size to get the best results from older "non-microgroove" recordings. And, a modern "stereo" cartridge will pick up lateral rumble and other noises just fine, although they contribute nothing good to the playback. Why all those quote marks? They're all standard words, used in standard context with standard meaning? Just asking :-) It's a habit. It's a way of alerting folks for whom those words are "standard" but their meanings may not be. It comes from years of having to do write-ups on very technical subjects that will be read by both technically savvy folks and some who are close to technically illiterate. It would be nice if there existed a "clearing house" for words that would prevent their use in more than one technical context, but alas... Isaac |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player/equalization
Radio transcription companies solved the need for "radial equalization"
by using the Western Electric Vertical recording system. The modulation is esentially up and and down in the groove instead of laterally and it virtually immune to the difference in diameter between the inside and outside of the recording diameter and offered superior frequency response. If you ever have a chance to listen to World Program Verticals of Duke Ellington they will blow your socks off.. dnw Sounds like you're not familiar with "radial equalization" as used in disk cutting? The whole purpose of it is to (attempt to) compensate for exactly that problem. One revolution of the disk takes the same amount of time, no matter the groove diameter. The outside grooves are around three times as long as the inside ones (more on a sixteen inch disk), so the waveform is stretched out by that factor -- the "wiggles" have more room to wiggle, so high frequency response is much better, any loud passages don't overcut anywhere near as bad. Since for much music, the loudest (and most complex) part occurs near the end, having more groove length to use per unit time makes for better quality. It's well known in the recording industry. Isaac |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player/equalization
"don ward" wrote in message ... Radio transcription companies solved the need for "radial equalization" by using the Western Electric Vertical recording system. The modulation is esentially up and and down in the groove instead of laterally and it virtually immune to the difference in diameter between the inside and outside of the recording diameter Since the change in the linear groove velocity is the same in either case, can you explain why vertical modulation will be "virtually" immune from the effects of reduced velocity? MrT. |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player/equalization
On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 05:08:03 GMT, don ward
wrote: Radio transcription companies solved the need for "radial equalization" by using the Western Electric Vertical recording system. The modulation is esentially up and and down in the groove instead of laterally and it virtually immune to the difference in diameter between the inside and outside of the recording diameter and offered superior frequency response. If you ever have a chance to listen to World Program Verticals of Duke Ellington they will blow your socks off.. The difference between the inside and outside is a difference in linear speed. You seem to be saying that vertical modulation is "immune to" this difference? So linear speed doesn't matter? Why weren't disks cut at 5 rpm then? You obviously didn't mean this. What DID you mean? |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
wrote in message oups.com... Are there any turntables that could possibly play a 16" disc that are not rare and/or expensive? Even if they coulnd't play at the right speed or sound great or even reach the entire length of the disc, I would still be happy. All I've been able to find are $1500 antiques, something I will never have. These are about $300.00: http://www.esotericsound.com/turntable.htm |
#25
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
"Karl Uppiano" wrote in message news:bRhxg.2826$fL3.1480@trnddc07... wrote in message oups.com... Are there any turntables that could possibly play a 16" disc that are not rare and/or expensive? Even if they coulnd't play at the right speed or sound great or even reach the entire length of the disc, I would still be happy. All I've been able to find are $1500 antiques, something I will never have. These are about $300.00: http://www.esotericsound.com/turntable.htm Correction: The one that plays 16" records costs about $700.00. Sorry. |
#26
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16" discs - need player
These are about $300.00: http://www.esotericsound.com/turntable.htm I see the second model offers a switch to select vertically cut disks. But a cartridge is not included. Same cartridge for lateral and vertical cuts? What would the switch do? |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
"Laurence Payne" wrote ...
I see the second model offers a switch to select vertically cut disks. But a cartridge is not included. Same cartridge for lateral and vertical cuts? What would the switch do? A contemporary stereo cartridge can be wired to respond to horizontal or vertical by jumpering the L and R sides either in-polarity or opposite-polarity. |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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16" discs - need player
wrote in message oups.com... Are there any turntables that could possibly play a 16" disc that are not rare and/or expensive? Even if they coulnd't play at the right speed or sound great or even reach the entire length of the disc, I would still be happy. All I've been able to find are $1500 antiques, something I will never have. I had no idea Rek-o-Kut was still in business, and making some serious equipment: http://www.esotericsound.com/turntable1.htm I remember them from my radio days in the late 1970s. The ones we had were 30 years old then. I eventually replaced them with some industrial-grade Technics. I think the old Rek-o-Kuts went to the landfill. |
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