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  #81   Report Post  
cujo613
 
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ID ROCKS[flame]


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  #82   Report Post  
BANDIT2941
 
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I only had 2 semesters of physics, but I would think that an amp overdriven
far beyond its capabilites would create some distortion that would cause the
speaker to freak out and heat up.


And the speaker would freak out how? The speaker doesn't have a mind, it simply
plays what is fed to it. It really isn't that complicated of a concept to
grasp. As long as it can handle the power being fed to it, the speaker will
play whatever its given.

You should re-read all posts in this thread, as well as look at the link Mr.
Zarella posted to an article he wrote. Some smart people have posted on this
thread in response to you, something they really didn't need to take their time
to do; since they basically reiterated the same points in different ways to try
to make you understand. There is a lot to be learned by going over those
postings.

I appreciate the physical evidence layed out by Mark and others.

Jamie
  #83   Report Post  
Pug Fugley
 
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"BANDIT2941" wrote in message
...
I only had 2 semesters of physics, but I would think that an amp

overdriven
far beyond its capabilites would create some distortion that would cause

the
speaker to freak out and heat up.


And the speaker would freak out how? The speaker doesn't have a mind, it

simply
plays what is fed to it. It really isn't that complicated of a concept to
grasp. As long as it can handle the power being fed to it, the speaker

will
play whatever its given.


A speaker is designed to play a sine wave, not a square wave or a saturated
signal.




  #84   Report Post  
cujo613
 
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e=MC2 TO THE THIRD POWER WITH NEG INFLUX TO THE ORBITAL PATERN TO
MARS WHILE HAVING POSITIVE ION ATTACHMENT TO SEA WATER. WHO CARES.
[flame]


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  #85   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
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A speaker is designed to play a sine wave, not a square wave or a saturated
signal.



A speaker does not care as long as you do not exceed the thermal limits. What
part of that dont you understand??
Sure it sounds bad but unless you give it more power than it can handle then it
will not damage it. That has been the whole point of this thread. Yet you STILL
think that a square wave or whatever wave will damage a speaker. It is not that
simple. I am still waiting for you to bring some evidence to back up the points
you have made in this thread. So far you have provided nithing.

To Cujo;
You have a responsibility to your customers and the car audio business in
general to have accurate knowledge. I am glad that you have had no returns but
if you continue the misinformation about power ratings and "underpowering" and
clipping you are doing a disservice to you customers. Keeping a myth alive
whether by lying or by ignorance is not helping people understand audio. Give
an installer a solid basis in physics and electronics and they will be 10 times
more effective.
I cannot think of anyone that would disagree with this.
BTW: when you reply qoute the text you are talking about so that everyone can
follow, otherwise we never know.

Les


  #86   Report Post  
cujo613
 
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Now i I neither lie nor am I ignorant. So by that i am a bit offended.
You seem to have a problem understanding that this is how I was taught
by these companies. And i am assuming pug as well. Now with your
attitude i guess i am safe in assuming you are one of these people mecp
certified probably from a course with a strong knowledge in electrical
THEORY with little or no actual hands on. Probably been in the industry
3-5 years. The best installer i have evr seen was a drummer. With no
knowledge in physics.
Lets end this with this. In no way was I defending underpowering blows
speakers. I was defending this is the way we were taught back in the
day. I also stated that it would make sense that underpowering couldnt
blow speakers. As for my customers i tend to stay off that subject all
together. And try to match power with consumption.
I would think that an edumacated person like youself would have some
english comprehension to back up that physics degree of yours.


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  #87   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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I only had 2 semesters of physics, but I would think that an amp overdriven
far beyond its capabilites would create some distortion that would cause the
speaker to freak out and heat up.



Cause the speaker to "freak out"? Being a bit vague perhaps? As I
previously mentioned, heat in this case can only come from electrical
power. Not special waveforms. This is basically the underlying theme
of the first law of thermodynamics (kinda sorta).

No, the waveform has very little to do with anything as long as the
frequency is high enough to allow for the cone motion to sufficiently
move air and dissipate heat (anything over a few Hz is fine for this).
Power content has everything to do with it. The speaker doesn't care
whether the increase in power is due to clipping or due to just using a
more powerful amp. The only thing the speaker cares about is how much
current is flowing through the coil. That's it, nothing more.

  #88   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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A speaker is designed to play a sine wave, not a square wave or a saturated
signal.


Do you not know that Fourier proved many many years ago that a square
wave is nothing more than the sum of a combination of sine waves?

  #89   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
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Now i I neither lie nor am I ignorant. So by that i am a bit offended.

You should not be. I said people either lie, as in they know the truth and say
otherwise, or they are ignorant. Now ignorant was not meant as an insult, it
just means that you lack the knowledge. And you even admit you dont know, that
it was just what you were told. You take things however you wish.

You seem to have a problem understanding that this is how I was taught
by these companies. And i am assuming pug as well.


You seem to have a problem understanding that they were wrong. They never
provided you scientific proof.
And did you ever think to question the sales rep?? 9 out of 10 times they send
out a marketing or sales rep to educate you, not an engineer. I have been to
several of these and never once gotten an engineer, It does happen though.

Now with your
attitude i guess i am safe in assuming you are one of these people mecp
certified probably from a course with a strong knowledge in electrical
THEORY with little or no actual hands on.


And you would assume wrong. I have obtained most of my knowledge by reading AND
experimenting. My hands on experience is quite extensive.
So do you think that an installer that has a solid background in electrical
theory would not be a better installer? You must have the theory first before
you can apply it. Just knowing this is how you do something but not knowing why
makes someone a competent installer, but it would be hard for them to be more
than just that. If you do not have the knowledge how can you manipulate it to
make it fit the situation you are trying to correct.

Probably been in the industry
3-5 years.


Made a living at it for 5 years, but it has since become a hobby, an expensive
one, and now I make my living as a Pro audio engineer. Way more fun for me, and
you sure as hell better have a good background in electrical theory or your
likely to get yourself or someone else hurt.

The best installer i have evr seen was a drummer. With no
knowledge in physics.


So? Do you think he would have benefited from it? I never said you could not be
a good installer but I think you would be a better one if you added more
knowledge.

Lets end this with this. In no way was I defending underpowering blows
speakers. I was defending this is the way we were taught back in the
day.


Well they taught you wrong. I am pointing that out. If you have some reason to
think I am wrong then we will discuss it, but we have to discuss it on a
scientific level because the excuse of thats the way I was taught just doesnt
have alot of weight.

I also stated that it would make sense that underpowering couldnt
blow speakers.


Good. Then why defend the way you were taught? Why not go with your sense and
find out why? If it makes sense to you that underpowering does not blow
speakers then why did you not question those people telling you just that?

As for my customers i tend to stay off that subject all
together.


But it will come up and what do you tell them? Being able to give the customer
a correct consice answer makes you a better installer. If you cannot give them
the correct answer then they may continue to believe the lies and then the
myths perpetuate. If you love car audio so much why would you want that to
continue?

I would think that an edumacated person like youself would have some
english comprehension to back up that physics degree of yours.


I understood you perfectly. I merely said that you are doing a disservice to
your customers by not being able to inform them the correct answer. So maybe
your comprehension skills could use a little work.
Oh ya, you still didnt quote. It is really not that hard and you look a lot
more intelligent when you can figure out that simple feature.

Les
  #90   Report Post  
Bill Pallies
 
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"Pug Fugley" wrote in message
ink.net...


A speaker is designed to play a sine wave, not a square wave or a

saturated
signal.


A sine wave? That's it? Rarely do I listen to music that is composed of sine
waves. A sine wave is one of the dullest sounds out there. The human voice,
a flute, a saxophone, a guitar, drums (gasp!)... these produce anything but
a sine wave. And my speakers handle them just fine.

THE ONLY REASON CLIPPING MAY DAMAGE A SPEAKER IS IF THAT SPEAKER WAS BEING
DRIVEN CLOSE TO IT'S LIMITS *BEFORE* THE CLIPPING STARTED, AND IS THUS BEING
DRIVING BEYOND IT'S LIMITS (+ ~30% ) WHEN CLIPPING BEGINS.

This has been explained to you in every imaginable way I can think of. A
400w capable sub CANNOT be damaged by a 50w capable amp *if* these numbers
are accurate. At full clipping that 50w amp would not exceed 400w and thus
the sub would play it's square wave just fine.

The shape of the wave is not the issue, it's the power delivery that wave is
capable of. Since a square wave can deliver more power to the voice coil,
than it is possible to blow a sub by clipping already-near-its-limits
output. And this would be called "overpowering."

-Bill




  #91   Report Post  
BANDIT2941
 
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A speaker is designed to play a sine wave, not a square wave or a saturated
signal.


The speaker doesn't care! It plays whatever signal is sent to it, provided it
can handle the power.
  #92   Report Post  
Tha Ghee
 
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"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
.. .
If used properly "clipping" can yield almost 30% power,


You can deliver more than 30% more power if you clip severely. It's
limited only by the output impedance of the amplifier.


didn't know that about how much more can you extract??


  #93   Report Post  
EFFENDI
 
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Soundfreak03 wrote:
Now i I neither lie nor am I ignorant. So by that i am a bit offended.



You should not be. I said people either lie, as in they know the truth and say
otherwise, or they are ignorant. Now ignorant was not meant as an insult, it
just means that you lack the knowledge. And you even admit you dont know, that
it was just what you were told. You take things however you wish.


You seem to have a problem understanding that this is how I was taught
by these companies. And i am assuming pug as well.



You seem to have a problem understanding that they were wrong. They never
provided you scientific proof.
And did you ever think to question the sales rep?? 9 out of 10 times they send
out a marketing or sales rep to educate you, not an engineer. I have been to
several of these and never once gotten an engineer, It does happen though.


Now with your
attitude i guess i am safe in assuming you are one of these people mecp
certified probably from a course with a strong knowledge in electrical
THEORY with little or no actual hands on.



And you would assume wrong. I have obtained most of my knowledge by reading AND
experimenting. My hands on experience is quite extensive.
So do you think that an installer that has a solid background in electrical
theory would not be a better installer? You must have the theory first before
you can apply it. Just knowing this is how you do something but not knowing why
makes someone a competent installer, but it would be hard for them to be more
than just that. If you do not have the knowledge how can you manipulate it to
make it fit the situation you are trying to correct.


Probably been in the industry
3-5 years.



Made a living at it for 5 years, but it has since become a hobby, an expensive
one, and now I make my living as a Pro audio engineer. Way more fun for me, and
you sure as hell better have a good background in electrical theory or your
likely to get yourself or someone else hurt.


The best installer i have evr seen was a drummer. With no
knowledge in physics.



So? Do you think he would have benefited from it? I never said you could not be
a good installer but I think you would be a better one if you added more
knowledge.


Lets end this with this. In no way was I defending underpowering blows
speakers. I was defending this is the way we were taught back in the
day.



Well they taught you wrong. I am pointing that out. If you have some reason to
think I am wrong then we will discuss it, but we have to discuss it on a
scientific level because the excuse of thats the way I was taught just doesnt
have alot of weight.


I also stated that it would make sense that underpowering couldnt
blow speakers.



Good. Then why defend the way you were taught? Why not go with your sense and
find out why? If it makes sense to you that underpowering does not blow
speakers then why did you not question those people telling you just that?


As for my customers i tend to stay off that subject all
together.



But it will come up and what do you tell them? Being able to give the customer
a correct consice answer makes you a better installer. If you cannot give them
the correct answer then they may continue to believe the lies and then the
myths perpetuate. If you love car audio so much why would you want that to
continue?


I would think that an edumacated person like youself would have some
english comprehension to back up that physics degree of yours.



I understood you perfectly. I merely said that you are doing a disservice to
your customers by not being able to inform them the correct answer. So maybe
your comprehension skills could use a little work.
Oh ya, you still didnt quote. It is really not that hard and you look a lot
more intelligent when you can figure out that simple feature.

Les


Back at it again Les????

EFFENDI
  #94   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
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Back at it again Les????

EFFENDI


You know me. Except this time I wasn't even trying to offend him. They are just
ignorant to the meaning of ignorant, and lack some reading skills.

Les
  #95   Report Post  
cujo613
 
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Jesus you know what you dwaddling techno loser. You need to read the
posts at what i was saying. Its people like you that bore and dull this
industry. Im glad that you arent in this industry, so other shops dont
have to hear the ever popular that guy is a dick speech.
And i dont care to quote.


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  #96   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
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Jesus you know what you dwaddling techno loser. You need to read the
posts at what i was saying. Its people like you that bore and dull this
industry. Im glad that you arent in this industry, so other shops dont
have to hear the ever popular that guy is a dick speech.
And i dont care to quote.


You dont care to quote because you cant figure it out. I am fun to hang out
with and do some badass stuff in my off time, but hey I dont really care what
you think, everyone I have installed for have not only had thier expectations
met but exceeded.
Your just upset that someone pointed out that your NOT meeting your customers
needs because you dont have the BASIC knowledge of car audio electronics. It is
not all theory, its PRACTICAL. You should have this knowledge. You should know
what clipping is and its effects. You should know exactly how it effects a
system. But you don't. You have a responsibility to the industry as an
installer to have the knowledge directly relevent to the industry. If every
installer had that knowledge, and the desire to have the knowledge, I think the
reputation would be different. We should all be learning new things and
challenge things that do not make sense. Hey even if your wrong at least you
went through a thought process and you thought about WHY something was or wasnt
or worked or didnt work. But we have too many installers like you who know how
to put in a HU and a couple speakers, perhaps a fairly basic system and think
thats all there is. Well its not.

Les
  #97   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
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Im glad that you arent in this industry, so other shops dont
have to hear the ever popular that guy is a dick speech.


BTW: I was never a dick to the customers. But I always am to halfway competent
installers who could barely trace a signal path and will actually call
themselves experienced without having basic electronics knowledge that is
absolutely essential to the industry. It not just theory its practical and
applicable knowledge.

Les
  #98   Report Post  
Mark Zarella
 
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Tha Ghee wrote:
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
.. .

If used properly "clipping" can yield almost 30% power,


You can deliver more than 30% more power if you clip severely. It's
limited only by the output impedance of the amplifier.



didn't know that about how much more can you extract??



Depends on the amp. In theory (that is, assuming an output impedance of
zero), you should be able to get 100% more power. But amplifier output
impedances aren't zero. If you assume that a particular amplifier has
an output impedance of, say, 0.25 ohms, and the speaker is 4 ohms across
the entire bandwidth, then you're talking something like 16/17 = 94%.
This is assuming a pretty low/constant output Z and a speaker impedance
of 4 ohms across the entire frequency bandwidth, which is an "ideal"
situation, so to speak. Oh, and also severe clipping such that the
entire signal is clipped all the time and fully creating a square wave
out of a sine wave - not usually realistic.

  #99   Report Post  
cujo613
 
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Can you read at all. Or do you just try to spend all your time rubbing
your own pole. Number one I am not an installer, never said I was. Dont
know where you got that. Maybe your little fantasy world where you are
queen and everybody thinks you are a god.
And maybe I will learn to quote, just isnt on my things to do list
right now.
And where do you keep getting me mistaken with the whole clipping
thing. I was pointing out training that I have gone through.
So You have already bored the hell out of me. You seem more content on
proving that you know everything that you overlooked the obvious. I
NEVER SAID CLIPPING BLOWS SPEAKERS. I STATED A FACT ON HOW I WAS
TRAINED BY THESE COMPANIES. So go back to the mirror rub your own
nipples some more and go back to your fairy land.
And maybe the day will come when you might think before you open your
hole.


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  #100   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
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Can you read at all. Or do you just try to spend all your time rubbing
your own pole.


Ok leave your homo fantasies in your mind, none of us really care.

Number one I am not an installer, never said I was.


Well you sure as hell implied it
"And sure as **** i remember them saying
and emphasizing that underpowering a speaker will blow it. For years i
heard this."

I dont know of those manufactures who just let anyone off the street just come
to thier training, You have to be an installer typically. Or how about this.

"I love car audio. I love working in the industry. And this
is all i care about i have never had a customer bring back a system
that I laid out for him for any reason."

Customers? But your not an installer. I just assumed that someone going through
tech training and that has customers with systems that they are an installer.
Dont tell me your someone worse, just a salesguy who doesnt even know how to
install. But if your not an installer your posts would lead one to think
otherwise, you used present tense everytime you talked about your "customers".
If they were in the past you should learn to use past tense.

Dont
know where you got that.


From your posts.



Maybe your little fantasy world where you are
queen and everybody thinks you are a god.


Ok what is your deal with your homo tendecies? We dont care.

And maybe I will learn to quote, just isnt on my things to do list
right now.


Nah, your just too much of a dumbass to figure it out. I thought at first maybe
you were just ignorant but now I just think your an idiot.

And where do you keep getting me mistaken with the whole clipping
thing. I was pointing out training that I have gone through.


I pointed out that you should know exactly what clipping is and the effects on
the system. You said that it doesnt make sense and I said you should follow up
on that and find out why. By not doing that you are doing a disservice to the
industry that you say you love. But instead you dont care, and just let the
myth continue. Thats just stupid. That is the exact attitude that makes alot of
people HATE shops, "I dont care", and you have it.

o You have already bored the hell out of me. You seem more content on
proving that you know everything that you overlooked the obvious


Ok, I am waiting.

I
NEVER SAID CLIPPING BLOWS SPEAKERS. I STATED A FACT ON HOW I WAS
TRAINED BY THESE COMPANIES.


I know. I told you to go with your senses and find out WHY. My last 2 posts to
you have dealt with that. Read them again. I realize that you dont think it
makes sense, but I also realize that you dont know why. And if you love car
audio then one would think you would want to know why. So who is overlooking
the obvious.

So go back to the mirror rub your own
nipples some more and go back to your fairy land.


Enough with the homo talk.

And maybe the day will come when you might think before you open your
hole.


I did. I made assumptions based on your posts which implied you were an
installer. I also agreed that you dont think clipping blows speakers. But I
have tried to get you to the the merit in finding out why. But like most shops
out there you have the attitude of "I know enough, I don't care" And that is
exactly the reason that so many people are inherently mistrustful of shops.
Think about it.

For anyone still reading what do you think.
Should installers have basic electronics knowledge? Should they know what
clipping is and what it does and why?
And then of course expand it to ohms and caps and the other myths. But to me it
seems essential.

Les


  #101   Report Post  
EFFENDI
 
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Default this whole damn mess called r.a.c.

Soundfreak03 wrote:
Can you read at all. Or do you just try to spend all your time rubbing
your own pole.



Ok leave your homo fantasies in your mind, none of us really care.


Number one I am not an installer, never said I was.



Well you sure as hell implied it
"And sure as **** i remember them saying
and emphasizing that underpowering a speaker will blow it. For years i
heard this."

I dont know of those manufactures who just let anyone off the street just come
to thier training, You have to be an installer typically. Or how about this.

"I love car audio. I love working in the industry. And this
is all i care about i have never had a customer bring back a system
that I laid out for him for any reason."

Customers? But your not an installer. I just assumed that someone going through
tech training and that has customers with systems that they are an installer.
Dont tell me your someone worse, just a salesguy who doesnt even know how to
install. But if your not an installer your posts would lead one to think
otherwise, you used present tense everytime you talked about your "customers".
If they were in the past you should learn to use past tense.


Dont
know where you got that.



From your posts.




Maybe your little fantasy world where you are
queen and everybody thinks you are a god.



Ok what is your deal with your homo tendecies? We dont care.


And maybe I will learn to quote, just isnt on my things to do list
right now.



Nah, your just too much of a dumbass to figure it out. I thought at first maybe
you were just ignorant but now I just think your an idiot.


And where do you keep getting me mistaken with the whole clipping
thing. I was pointing out training that I have gone through.



I pointed out that you should know exactly what clipping is and the effects on
the system. You said that it doesnt make sense and I said you should follow up
on that and find out why. By not doing that you are doing a disservice to the
industry that you say you love. But instead you dont care, and just let the
myth continue. Thats just stupid. That is the exact attitude that makes alot of
people HATE shops, "I dont care", and you have it.


o You have already bored the hell out of me. You seem more content on
proving that you know everything that you overlooked the obvious



Ok, I am waiting.


I
NEVER SAID CLIPPING BLOWS SPEAKERS. I STATED A FACT ON HOW I WAS
TRAINED BY THESE COMPANIES.



I know. I told you to go with your senses and find out WHY. My last 2 posts to
you have dealt with that. Read them again. I realize that you dont think it
makes sense, but I also realize that you dont know why. And if you love car
audio then one would think you would want to know why. So who is overlooking
the obvious.


So go back to the mirror rub your own
nipples some more and go back to your fairy land.



Enough with the homo talk.


And maybe the day will come when you might think before you open your
hole.



I did. I made assumptions based on your posts which implied you were an
installer. I also agreed that you dont think clipping blows speakers. But I
have tried to get you to the the merit in finding out why. But like most shops
out there you have the attitude of "I know enough, I don't care" And that is
exactly the reason that so many people are inherently mistrustful of shops.
Think about it.

For anyone still reading what do you think.
Should installers have basic electronics knowledge? Should they know what
clipping is and what it does and why?
And then of course expand it to ohms and caps and the other myths. But to me it
seems essential.

Les


**** Les you should just let this go. These are situations that you seem
to love responding to; I say let people go on being ****heads. If they
dont want to learn its they own problem. If you want to change that by
contributing to something positive then skip to the end of my post.

I digress. As a beginning installer myself I must say that unless you
have some kind of first hand knowledge of electronic theory and the
practical application of it you should be nowhere near any customers car.

I cant believe that half of the people on here do not understand
clipping. It just shows you how misinformed the consumers of this
industry are. What more is that the marketing in this industry is full
of misinformation and bull****. Im trying to change that by keeping ****
real. You all got to be willing to learn. Dont bust out answers to
questions of which magnitude you cant even begin to comprehend.

I have gone from selling car audio to installing it. I been in this for
a while like most of the halfway decent people on here.

Think its time that we just school everyone in a giant thread? Basic
electronic theory, wiring, etc. I know there are some brilliant people
on here with a ton of knowledge that can help everyone. I want to offer
something of a level of MECP education. But discussed in different
threads on a weekly basis. Even a name of the school/thread should be
considered. I am willing to contribute to this effort if everyone else
is. I jus think that if everyone on here has an equal understanding it
would be a lot more 'fun'. Holla back at me if you are interested in
something like this.

Cleaning the bull**** off the walls. Hey it aint a nice job but we have
an obligation in some form if we have any passion for what we do.

EFENDI
  #102   Report Post  
cujo613
 
Posts: n/a
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I never implied I was an installer. SOUNSTREAM,
ORION,HIFONICS,PPI,CLARION,ALPINE.MEMPHIS,JL AUDIO,INFINITY,MB
QUART,FOCAL,MARK ANTONY,CRYSTAL MOBILE SOUND,KOVE,KENWOOD, AND A FEW
OTHERS I CANT REMEMBER were the tech trainings i have been to. And none
of them were just for installers.If you are in the industry definately
you have been to trainings and you should know that they are for an
entire shop. And in some cases entire regions. They were for sales,
installers,MANAGERS,(theres an implication dumbass) and owners. Hell a
couple were open for guests as well. Now as far as clipping goes, I
dont have to worry about it for
1. I dont sell subs with underpowered amps.
2.sell underpowered amps for a customer sub.
3. Advise in any way that doing so is ok
4. AND FOR THE OVERALL REASON IS IT SOUNDS LIKE
ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dont know of any customer in the world who actually wants to sit down
and hear somebody spit out Sir Isaac Newton for severall hours when all
they want to do is bump. A sales persons job is to help the customer
make the best choice possible. Talking tech with 90% of the customers
will make them run out the door.
Here lets try this
customer: Mr sales guy I have a jensen 50 watt amp and i want to run my
JL 12w3D2. I was worried that it isnt enough power. I heard that it
could hurt the sub is that true.
Sales guy: no that isnt true,BUT IT WILL SOUND LIKE ASS. You would be
better going with a better amp.
No techno garbage GET IT[flame]


--
cujo613
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  #103   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
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Dont tell me your someone worse, just a salesguy who doesnt even know how
to
install.


I take offense to that. I never worked in the install bay out of choice,
not because I couldn't and I had as much or more training than any installer
we had and even would go in the bay to help them figure things out when they
were having problems or couldn't grasp what I wanted them to do. Hell, I
even did a lot of their troubleshooting in the parking lot to keep from
wasting their time with easy fixes. An all I was was a lowly salesman.



Paul Vina



  #104   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
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I take offense to that. I never worked in the install bay out of choice,
not because I couldn't and I had as much or more training than any installer
we had and even would go in the bay to help them figure things out when they
were having problems or couldn't grasp what I wanted them to do. Hell, I
even did a lot of their troubleshooting in the parking lot to keep from
wasting their time with easy fixes. An all I was was a lowly salesman.



Paul Vina



Paul,

You shouldnt be offended. I have done sales myself, out of the bay for a
reason. So like you I was a lowly salesman, but I suspect that you like me also
designed systems. That is different than just being a salesman, who says hey
buy this, but actually helping to decide not only what gear but how the
installation should be. And you cant really design well without know how to
install. Right?
The comment was meant for those "salesman" who do NOT know how to install. Most
of those types of salespeople can only spew back marketing jargon.
If my point was unclear that it was directed at those who do not even know how
to install I apologize. You are clearly not the type that does not know what
they are doing.

Les

  #105   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default speaker protection

.If you are in the industry definately
you have been to trainings and you should know that they are for an
entire shop. And in some cases entire regions. They were for sales,
installers,MANAGERS,(theres an implication dumbass) and owners.


So even worse. Your a MANAGER of a car audio store? And you do not have basic
electronics knowledge? How absurd is that. So all you can do is spout marketing
BS right back out. So tell me can you atleast install a HU?

Hell a
couple were open for guests as well. Now as far as clipping goes, I
dont have to worry about it for
1. I dont sell subs with underpowered amps.
2.sell underpowered amps for a customer sub.
3. Advise in any way that doing so is ok


You DO have to worry about it. It should be your responsibility as a manager to
not only be able to tell your customers but your employees what it is and how
it affects the system. A manager is supposed to lead, and what example do you
set? That its ok to not give a **** and not know the very basics of car audio.
And of course the old thought of I know enough I dont need to learn more. What
can you tell the customer that wants to know?
What do you do when you get customers that are just wanting to simply augment
the low end a bit? Sell them a 500 watt amp when a 100 watt amp will achieve
the desired listening level without distortion?

4. AND FOR THE OVERALL REASON IS IT SOUNDS LIKE
ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thats still not an excuse for not even knowing what it is. Anybody off the
street could tell you that. Then again it would seem that anybody off the
street could do your job too.

I dont know of any customer in the world who actually wants to sit down
and hear somebody spit out Sir Isaac Newton for severall hours when all
they want to do is bump.


It is simple. Anyone can understand it. Well almost anyone, you still seem to
have some trouble. It is ok I am writing a book "Clipping for Dummies" and it
is geared for people like you.
How many people come in under the false conceptions that "underpowering blows
more speakers than overpowering" or "clipping puts out DC" or one of the good
ones "clipping will pop a voice coil".
And what explanation do you offer when you may know they are untrue but dont
know why? Why should they believe you when their buddy told them that.
But hey maybe you just get he people that just wanna bump. Throw in a couple of
subs and an amp and call it a "system". But when I worked in the shop I dealt
with people who wanted it to sound good, look good, and asked questions.
Different clientel, based on the rep of your shop.

A sales persons job is to help the customer
make the best choice possible.


Yes. And the best choice cannot always be based on numbers. And they should be
able to answer questionsr with some accuracy. And you cant say, unless youve
only been working a couple of days, that you havent heard those examples above.
What did you tell them?

Talking tech with 90% of the customers
will make them run out the door.


Nah. Only if your a dumbass like yourself who doesnt know how to do it. I had
many customers that liked to talk tech. They just didnt want a system they
wanted to know what the system is and how it worked and why. Like I said
different clientel.



Here lets try this
customer: Mr sales guy I have a jensen 50 watt amp and i want to run my
JL 12w3D2. I was worried that it isnt enough power. I heard that it
could hurt the sub is that true.
Sales guy: no that isnt true,BUT IT WILL SOUND LIKE ASS. You would be
better going with a better amp.
No techno garbage GET IT[flame]


And what do you tell the customer when they want to know why? You just sound
like some dumbass salesman trying to make the bigger sale. Maybe thats all your
customers need, just someone to spew marketing BS back to them. But all the
shops that have the reputation of being good also have the reputation of
knowing thier ****. Those guys could explain to you all the "techno garbage"
and tell you how it applies to the particular situation.
Face it, car audio is based on the "techno garbage". You dont need to know how
to design an amp but you should at least have a basic understanding of how it
functions. You should know basically how a speaker works, and you should know
what clipping is, and what a capacitor really is and what it can really do. And
most importantly you should know WHY. Anyone can spew back **** they heard, but
actually understanding why is what the installers, the supposed experts, should
know. And a manager of the store should sure as hell know. GET IT????

Les


  #106   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default this whole damn mess called r.a.c.

**** Les you should just let this go. These are situations that you seem
to love responding to; I say let people go on being ****heads. If they
dont want to learn its they own problem. If you want to change that by
contributing to something positive then skip to the end of my post.


Your right. And I would have let it go except for the fact that the guy works
in the industry and does not even care to learn. Thats just stupid.

I digress. As a beginning installer myself I must say that unless you
have some kind of first hand knowledge of electronic theory and the
practical application of it you should be nowhere near any customers car.


We are agreed.

I cant believe that half of the people on here do not understand
clipping. It just shows you how misinformed the consumers of this
industry are. What more is that the marketing in this industry is full
of misinformation and bull****. Im trying to change that by keeping ****
real. You all got to be willing to learn. Dont bust out answers to
questions of which magnitude you cant even begin to comprehend.


Think its time that we just school everyone in a giant thread? Basic
electronic theory, wiring, etc. I know there are some brilliant people
on here with a ton of knowledge that can help everyone. I want to offer
something of a level of MECP education. But discussed in different
threads on a weekly basis. Even a name of the school/thread should be
considered. I am willing to contribute to this effort if everyone else
is. I jus think that if everyone on here has an equal understanding it
would be a lot more 'fun'. Holla back at me if you are interested in
something like this.


Sounds like a good idea. You could have discussions. But alas I would probably
have to stay most out of it as I have no patience for idiots who think the laws
of physics somehow do not apply to cars.



Cleaning the bull**** off the walls. Hey it aint a nice job but we have
an obligation in some form if we have any passion for what we do.

EFENDI



Agreed. You know we actually agreed on something. And if we can get along here
then anyone can

Les

  #107   Report Post  
EFFENDI
 
Posts: n/a
Default this whole damn mess called r.a.c.

Soundfreak03 wrote:
**** Les you should just let this go. These are situations that you seem
to love responding to; I say let people go on being ****heads. If they
dont want to learn its they own problem. If you want to change that by
contributing to something positive then skip to the end of my post.



Your right. And I would have let it go except for the fact that the guy works
in the industry and does not even care to learn. Thats just stupid.

It is stupid so let it go man.


I digress. As a beginning installer myself I must say that unless you
have some kind of first hand knowledge of electronic theory and the
practical application of it you should be nowhere near any customers car.



We are agreed.


I cant believe that half of the people on here do not understand
clipping. It just shows you how misinformed the consumers of this
industry are. What more is that the marketing in this industry is full
of misinformation and bull****. Im trying to change that by keeping ****
real. You all got to be willing to learn. Dont bust out answers to
questions of which magnitude you cant even begin to comprehend.



Think its time that we just school everyone in a giant thread? Basic
electronic theory, wiring, etc. I know there are some brilliant people
on here with a ton of knowledge that can help everyone. I want to offer
something of a level of MECP education. But discussed in different
threads on a weekly basis. Even a name of the school/thread should be
considered. I am willing to contribute to this effort if everyone else
is. I jus think that if everyone on here has an equal understanding it
would be a lot more 'fun'. Holla back at me if you are interested in
something like this.



Sounds like a good idea. You could have discussions. But alas I would probably
have to stay most out of it as I have no patience for idiots who think the laws
of physics somehow do not apply to cars.


The purpose of what I want to do is to teach those willing to learn. Not
to tolerate those who have chosen (thats right ignorance is a choice) to
be ignorant.




Cleaning the bull**** off the walls. Hey it aint a nice job but we have
an obligation in some form if we have any passion for what we do.

EFENDI




Agreed. You know we actually agreed on something. And if we can get along here
then anyone can


As long as we share the same ideas and passion then there should be no
reason to disagree. Nah mean? You are a knowledgable person that needs
to put that knowledge to work instead of wasting your time arguing with
people. I am serious about this effort because I really want some help
in some areas that I really dont know anything about. But I feel that I
have enough knowledge and first hand experience in some areas that I can
share with others. I am willing to orchestrate a weekly/biweekly thread
and topic and discuss it with members of this newsgroup. I am willing to
set up a yahoo group with a mailing list if anyone is interested.


Les

  #108   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
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You're right. I've always been really intrigued by audio and electronics
so I've always wanted to learn as much as I could about it. Maybe it's
because I'm left handed.


You know what's funny, I still design systems for people. They'll see my
posts here or on SD and for some reason they just email me out of the blue.
I don't mind (I actually think it's fun) just strange that someone with no
more knowledge of a person than what they type into a computer, would
solicit advice on something as personal as an audio system from someone
they've never even seen.


Paul Vina



"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
...
I take offense to that. I never worked in the install bay out of choice,
not because I couldn't and I had as much or more training than any

installer
we had and even would go in the bay to help them figure things out when

they
were having problems or couldn't grasp what I wanted them to do. Hell, I
even did a lot of their troubleshooting in the parking lot to keep from
wasting their time with easy fixes. An all I was was a lowly salesman.



Paul Vina



Paul,

You shouldnt be offended. I have done sales myself, out of the bay for a
reason. So like you I was a lowly salesman, but I suspect that you like me

also
designed systems. That is different than just being a salesman, who says

hey
buy this, but actually helping to decide not only what gear but how the
installation should be. And you cant really design well without know how

to
install. Right?
The comment was meant for those "salesman" who do NOT know how to install.

Most
of those types of salespeople can only spew back marketing jargon.
If my point was unclear that it was directed at those who do not even know

how
to install I apologize. You are clearly not the type that does not know

what
they are doing.

Les



  #109   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default speaker protection

Soundfreak03 wrote:

So even worse. Your a MANAGER of a car audio store? And you do not have basic
electronics knowledge? How absurd is that


Its not absurd at all!
SHOP AROUND, you might find it is the NORM to find car audio stores staffed with
idiots!
SHOP AROUND! ha ha ha

Eddie Runner

  #110   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default speaker protection

Its not absurd at all!
SHOP AROUND, you might find it is the NORM to find car audio stores

staffed with
idiots!
SHOP AROUND! ha ha ha

Eddie Runner



Is yours? lmao! I had to do it Eddie! J/K




Paul Vina






  #111   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default COmpetence and Expereince speaker protection

Its a legit question ... All my guys are somewhat involved in
electronics, all
but my 1 afterschool helper are active ham radio operators with valid
liscenses, it
does take a passing score on a goverment test to get the liscense, and it
proves
they have a resonable electronics background.... Everyone here has
passed my
own installer test as well - http://installer.com/tech/test.html
Some of them are even MECP certified but thats not something I require,
experience
and the HAM test far surpass the MECP requirements IMO... They can all
operate
a meter, an osciloscope, an oscillator, and they all have been trained by
me in
troubleshooting techniques....

But still I sometimes hear my guys answer the odd question by a customer
in a way
I would not answer it.... Sometimes in my own store I hear the MYTHS
retold by
my own people.... it happens! and no one knows everything...... Week
before last
even I told a customer something would work and it didnt work, I was sure
positive,
I would have bet on it, and it ends up I was mistaken bigtime.... Oh
well... ?? ha ha

But still, shop around, most of the shops are staffed by folks that can
handle the
average customer (maybe) but few are staffed by anyone that knows much
about audio
or car installation of anything past the basic PLUG IN HARNESS and MOUNT
THE
KIT installation.....

Here is a good story, I have told it before but you may or may not have
heard it...
In the old days there were none of the wire harnesses like we have today,
installers
from my generation had to CUT the wires and figgure out what each wire was
as we
installed the car stereos....

When the wire harnesses started coming out in the early 1990s the problem
for a
store owner like me was that the installers tended to give the harness
away with the
install, so I had my guys do it the old fasioned way for many years, I
always told
them it made them a much better installer than the installers at the
average shop...

One of my installers that worked here about 7 years earned his engineering

degree and went from here to work at NASA... Once he
told me that my training has heled his so much when working at NASA he
thanked
me for making him do things like wire the radios the hard way because it
made
him better! Here is a picture of my ex installer Brandt (also a ham
radio operator
BTW) he is in a space suit working in the NBL (Neutral Boyancy Labratory)
where he taught the astronauts how to use tools in space to build the
space station.
http://installer.com/tech/Welker.jpg

Makes me think my guys are at least a little above average... ;-)

Eddie Runner
River Oaks Car Stereo HOUSTON



Paul Vina wrote:

Its not absurd at all!
SHOP AROUND, you might find it is the NORM to find car audio stores

staffed with
idiots!
SHOP AROUND! ha ha ha

Eddie Runner


Is yours? lmao! I had to do it Eddie! J/K

Paul Vina


  #112   Report Post  
Paul Vina
 
Posts: n/a
Default COmpetence and Expereince speaker protection

That's what my old shop was like. There was a lot of in-house training
going on. The biggest thing I got from him was his troubleshooting skills.
Before I worked there I would go around in circles instead of following a
logical path and it's made me 100 times better.



Paul Vina




"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
Its a legit question ... All my guys are somewhat involved in
electronics, all
but my 1 afterschool helper are active ham radio operators with valid
liscenses, it
does take a passing score on a goverment test to get the liscense, and it
proves
they have a resonable electronics background.... Everyone here has
passed my
own installer test as well - http://installer.com/tech/test.html
Some of them are even MECP certified but thats not something I require,
experience
and the HAM test far surpass the MECP requirements IMO... They can all
operate
a meter, an osciloscope, an oscillator, and they all have been trained by
me in
troubleshooting techniques....

But still I sometimes hear my guys answer the odd question by a customer
in a way
I would not answer it.... Sometimes in my own store I hear the MYTHS
retold by
my own people.... it happens! and no one knows everything...... Week
before last
even I told a customer something would work and it didnt work, I was sure
positive,
I would have bet on it, and it ends up I was mistaken bigtime.... Oh
well... ?? ha ha

But still, shop around, most of the shops are staffed by folks that can
handle the
average customer (maybe) but few are staffed by anyone that knows much
about audio
or car installation of anything past the basic PLUG IN HARNESS and MOUNT
THE
KIT installation.....

Here is a good story, I have told it before but you may or may not have
heard it...
In the old days there were none of the wire harnesses like we have today,
installers
from my generation had to CUT the wires and figgure out what each wire was
as we
installed the car stereos....

When the wire harnesses started coming out in the early 1990s the problem
for a
store owner like me was that the installers tended to give the harness
away with the
install, so I had my guys do it the old fasioned way for many years, I
always told
them it made them a much better installer than the installers at the
average shop...

One of my installers that worked here about 7 years earned his engineering

degree and went from here to work at NASA... Once he
told me that my training has heled his so much when working at NASA he
thanked
me for making him do things like wire the radios the hard way because it
made
him better! Here is a picture of my ex installer Brandt (also a ham
radio operator
BTW) he is in a space suit working in the NBL (Neutral Boyancy Labratory)
where he taught the astronauts how to use tools in space to build the
space station.
http://installer.com/tech/Welker.jpg

Makes me think my guys are at least a little above average... ;-)

Eddie Runner
River Oaks Car Stereo HOUSTON



Paul Vina wrote:

Its not absurd at all!
SHOP AROUND, you might find it is the NORM to find car audio stores

staffed with
idiots!
SHOP AROUND! ha ha ha

Eddie Runner


Is yours? lmao! I had to do it Eddie! J/K

Paul Vina




  #113   Report Post  
Soundfreak03
 
Posts: n/a
Default speaker protection

Its not absurd at all!
SHOP AROUND, you might find it is the NORM to find car audio stores staffed
with
idiots!
SHOP AROUND! ha ha ha

Eddie Runner


Too true. And its unforntunate. Then again I could most likely run a successful
business fixing botched installs from other places. Hmmm interesting idea.

Les
  #114   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default speaker protection

we used to put in out print adds and radio adds that we could
fix what the other places mess up... it was kind of our MOTTO for
many years.... It even got us biz direct from other shops that
had problems they couldnt overcome by themselves...

Soundfreak03 wrote:

Its not absurd at all!
SHOP AROUND, you might find it is the NORM to find car audio stores staffed
with
idiots!
SHOP AROUND! ha ha ha

Eddie Runner


Too true. And its unforntunate. Then again I could most likely run a successful
business fixing botched installs from other places. Hmmm interesting idea.

Les


  #115   Report Post  
Eddie Runner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Competence and Expereince speaker protection

so many installers do work in circles when they are troubleshooting... its
funny!
and when they fix something that way its because of LUCK not skill.... Its
amazing there are so many installers/shops out there like that....

Those logical thinking skills can carry over to ANY job the installer ever takes

or anything he ever does...

Eddie

Paul Vina wrote:

That's what my old shop was like. There was a lot of in-house training
going on. The biggest thing I got from him was his troubleshooting skills.
Before I worked there I would go around in circles instead of following a
logical path and it's made me 100 times better.

Paul Vina


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