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Posted to rec.audio.high-end
windcrest
 
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Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

Does anyone know of a portable audio player that can play both WMA
lossless and/or FLAC files? I have spent the last year or so ripping
all my CD's to wma lossless for home use, now I am at a loss for
finding a wma lossless audio player. I am willing to re-rip all the
CD's to FLAC and give up on wma lossless if I can find a FLAC player,
but would rather find a wma lossless player. (note, I am not willing
to listen to compressed audio).

Thanks for any suggestions on a player.


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jwvm
 
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Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

Why do you care what the format is if it is lossless? Just pick a
player that plays a lossless format and you are all set. Note that you
should not have to re-rip the tracks. Conversion from one lossless
format to another will not result in any loss in quality and is trivial
with commonly available software. Note also that you might also want to
rethink your concerns about compressed audio. Both FLAC and WMA
lossless are compressed formats. Also, the amount of distortion present
in lossy moderately-compressed files is likely to be no worse than
distortion from the player itself. Portable players need to operate at
low voltages and conserve power. As a result, they will have somewhat
higher distortion than home stereo units. Whether or not the distortion
can be heard is a whole different story. The bottom line is that you
should be more concerned with how a portable player sounds rather than
what file types it will play.


windcrest wrote:
Does anyone know of a portable audio player that can play both WMA
lossless and/or FLAC files? I have spent the last year or so ripping
all my CD's to wma lossless for home use, now I am at a loss for
finding a wma lossless audio player. I am willing to re-rip all the
CD's to FLAC and give up on wma lossless if I can find a FLAC player,
but would rather find a wma lossless player. (note, I am not willing
to listen to compressed audio).

Thanks for any suggestions on a player.


--



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Posted to rec.audio.high-end
 
Posts: n/a
Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

jwvm wrote:
Why do you care what the format is if it is lossless? Just pick a
player that plays a lossless format and you are all set. Note that you
should not have to re-rip the tracks. Conversion from one lossless
format to another will not result in any loss in quality and is trivial
with commonly available software. Note also that you might also want to
rethink your concerns about compressed audio. Both FLAC and WMA
lossless are compressed formats. Also, the amount of distortion present
in lossy moderately-compressed files is likely to be no worse than
distortion from the player itself. Portable players need to operate at
low voltages and conserve power. As a result, they will have somewhat
higher distortion than home stereo units. Whether or not the distortion
can be heard is a whole different story. The bottom line is that you
should be more concerned with how a portable player sounds rather than
what file types it will play.


windcrest wrote:
Does anyone know of a portable audio player that can play both WMA
lossless and/or FLAC files? I have spent the last year or so ripping
all my CD's to wma lossless for home use, now I am at a loss for
finding a wma lossless audio player. I am willing to re-rip all the
CD's to FLAC and give up on wma lossless if I can find a FLAC player,
but would rather find a wma lossless player. (note, I am not willing
to listen to compressed audio).

Thanks for any suggestions on a player.


--



--

I think the OP meant that he no longer wants to deal with lossy
compressed audio such as MP3, WMA etc.

I am actually in the same boat. I'm in the process of trashing my MP3s
and re-ripping all my CDs to lossless as well. My reason for doing it
is because I want only one repository for my music, and MP3s playing
through my home hifi just don't do the system justice. There are better
lossy formats out there but I'd rather not deal with the headache of
possibly finding some other flaw with any other lossless format down
the line. I'll just spend a little more on disk space.

Also, I've given up on MP3s for what I've seen described as the fatigue
factor, not so much distortion. I have found that when I listen to MP3s
I can only do so for 45 minutes or so, whether it be my portable
player, an Iriver, or my home stereo. I used to be able to listen for
much longer. I noticed one day when I decided to listen to straight
CDs, I was listening for hours and didn't really want to stop. I was
re-discovering my music once again. It was quite refreshing.

As for what portable player I'll be getting, there's an Ipod in my
future


CD


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  #4   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
windcrest
 
Posts: n/a
Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

jwvm wrote:
Why do you care what the format is if it is lossless? Just pick a
player that plays a lossless format and you are all set. Note that you
should not have to re-rip the tracks. Conversion from one lossless
format to another will not result in any loss in quality and is trivial
with commonly available software. Note also that you might also want to
rethink your concerns about compressed audio. Both FLAC and WMA
lossless are compressed formats. Also, the amount of distortion present
in lossy moderately-compressed files is likely to be no worse than
distortion from the player itself. Portable players need to operate at
low voltages and conserve power. As a result, they will have somewhat
higher distortion than home stereo units. Whether or not the distortion
can be heard is a whole different story. The bottom line is that you
should be more concerned with how a portable player sounds rather than
what file types it will play.


windcrest wrote:
Does anyone know of a portable audio player that can play both WMA
lossless and/or FLAC files? I have spent the last year or so ripping
all my CD's to wma lossless for home use, now I am at a loss for
finding a wma lossless audio player. I am willing to re-rip all the
CD's to FLAC and give up on wma lossless if I can find a FLAC player,
but would rather find a wma lossless player. (note, I am not willing
to listen to compressed audio).

Thanks for any suggestions on a player.


--



--


I should have said that I can't use lossy compressed audio, I have no
problems with lossless compression. Much of my tracks I process for
karaoke, and mp3's wipe out the phase relationships that allow the
vocal part to be removed, the center phase is lost even at high bit
rates. IOW I can remove vocals just fine from CD's or wma lossless
files, but that becomes impossible with mp3 or other lossy compression.
I entertain as a dj, karaoke host and solo guitarist with backing
tracks. In general mp3's sound pretty ice-picky through PA systems and
I avoid that format for more than the karaoke issue.

The problem is that I already ripped a couple thousand CD's to wma
lossless because the quality was so good. I also proved that I can
convert lossless wma back to wav flawlwssly, IOW the original and
converted wav files checksum to each other and are identical, using the
undocumented Microsoft wma lossless to pcm converter utility. I guess
I just assumed that I would one day find a player for wma lossless. In
after thought I probably should have maybe gone with flac as there are
more players for that. As it is now I still have to bring a laptop to
gigs, there are situations where I dont want a laptop and would prefer
a player (like coffee shop gigs where all I need is amp, guitar and
player).

So the ideal player right now would be one that can do wma lossless and
flac (a high-end audiophile player if you will).

This is my first post here so I figured on finding some experts on
lossless audio and what would be considered an audiophile-quality
player. I figure CD's will be obsolete in a few years and am a little
saddened by everyone in the world listening to lossy compression
through earbuds.


--

  #5   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
jwvm
 
Posts: n/a
Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

I should have said that I can't use lossy compressed audio, I have no
problems with lossless compression. Much of my tracks I process for
karaoke, and mp3's wipe out the phase relationships that allow the
vocal part to be removed, the center phase is lost even at high bit
rates. IOW I can remove vocals just fine from CD's or wma lossless
files, but that becomes impossible with mp3 or other lossy compression.
I entertain as a dj, karaoke host and solo guitarist with backing
tracks. In general mp3's sound pretty ice-picky through PA systems and
I avoid that format for more than the karaoke issue.


I understand your need for bit-perfect reproduction given that lossy
compression can adversely affect phase.


The problem is that I already ripped a couple thousand CD's to wma
lossless because the quality was so good. I also proved that I can
convert lossless wma back to wav flawlwssly, IOW the original and
converted wav files checksum to each other and are identical, using the
undocumented Microsoft wma lossless to pcm converter utility. I guess
I just assumed that I would one day find a player for wma lossless. In
after thought I probably should have maybe gone with flac as there are
more players for that. As it is now I still have to bring a laptop to
gigs, there are situations where I dont want a laptop and would prefer
a player (like coffee shop gigs where all I need is amp, guitar and
player).

So the ideal player right now would be one that can do wma lossless and
flac (a high-end audiophile player if you will).


I still don't follow your requirement for flac and wma lossless. By
definition, all lossless codecs produce the exact same results since
they are by definition lossless and will sound exactly the same as the
original CD. For example, the Apple ipod series has lossless
compression. I don't have an ipod but apparently you can import wave
files to the apple lossless format. Its very easy to convert any wma
format file to wave format so you would not have to re-rip everything.
Here is a link to players that support lossless compression:

http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/4520-64...5622801-1.html


--



  #6   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Steven Sullivan
 
Posts: n/a
Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

windcrest wrote:
I avoid that format for more than the karaoke issue.


The problem is that I already ripped a couple thousand CD's to wma
lossless because the quality was so good. I also proved that I can
convert lossless wma back to wav flawlwssly, IOW the original and
converted wav files checksum to each other and are identical, using the
undocumented Microsoft wma lossless to pcm converter utility. I guess
I just assumed that I would one day find a player for wma lossless. In
after thought I probably should have maybe gone with flac as there are
more players for that. As it is now I still have to bring a laptop to
gigs, there are situations where I dont want a laptop and would prefer
a player (like coffee shop gigs where all I need is amp, guitar and
player).


So the ideal player right now would be one that can do wma lossless and
flac (a high-end audiophile player if you will).


This is my first post here so I figured on finding some experts on
lossless audio and what would be considered an audiophile-quality
player. I figure CD's will be obsolete in a few years and am a little
saddened by everyone in the world listening to lossy compression
through earbuds.



The Microsoft Windows Media site has information on WMA players.
Have you checked there?


___
-S
"Excuse me? What solid proof do you have that I'm insane?" - soundhaspriority


--

  #7   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
windcrest
 
Posts: n/a
Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

jwvm wrote:
I should have said that I can't use lossy compressed audio, I have no
problems with lossless compression. Much of my tracks I process for
karaoke, and mp3's wipe out the phase relationships that allow the
vocal part to be removed, the center phase is lost even at high bit
rates. IOW I can remove vocals just fine from CD's or wma lossless
files, but that becomes impossible with mp3 or other lossy compression.
I entertain as a dj, karaoke host and solo guitarist with backing
tracks. In general mp3's sound pretty ice-picky through PA systems and
I avoid that format for more than the karaoke issue.


I understand your need for bit-perfect reproduction given that lossy
compression can adversely affect phase.


The problem is that I already ripped a couple thousand CD's to wma
lossless because the quality was so good. I also proved that I can
convert lossless wma back to wav flawlwssly, IOW the original and
converted wav files checksum to each other and are identical, using the
undocumented Microsoft wma lossless to pcm converter utility. I guess
I just assumed that I would one day find a player for wma lossless. In
after thought I probably should have maybe gone with flac as there are
more players for that. As it is now I still have to bring a laptop to
gigs, there are situations where I dont want a laptop and would prefer
a player (like coffee shop gigs where all I need is amp, guitar and
player).

So the ideal player right now would be one that can do wma lossless and
flac (a high-end audiophile player if you will).


I still don't follow your requirement for flac and wma lossless.

http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/4520-64...5622801-1.html


--


I have mostle wma lossless files, but also many flac files, wav files
are fine too but they fill up your player fast. So why use wav when I
can get wav quality from flac and/or wmalossless in a smaller space? I
want to load up a player with what I already have ripped.

It appears the high-end audio community and manufacturers are
slow-to-market when it comes to bringing an "audiophile quality"
player. Most of the high-end literature I read is still hooked on
vinyl and 50 pound mono blocks, and thats fine, I like that too, but
its not portable.

My research into high-end audio players shows that the high-end
"audiophiles" are behind the curve in this area. And if lossless
formats do not become more widely "useable" in the new devices, the
high-end market will suffer due to no demand for audiophile lossless
formats. So I came to rec.audio.high-end to find out from the experts
what is available, and it appears there is little in a player that can
play multiple lossless formats. I've been avoiding iPods because they
only support the Apple lossless format. I may in the end have to go
with one of the portable windows media players which can apparently
play 5 or 6 different lossless codecs including apple, flac, and wma,
just like a computer. But they are larger and the op-amps and D/A
converters are really not high-end.

I need the lossless compressed formats for my dj and karaoke work as
lossy compression just does not cut it there, I'm after quality.


--

  #8   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
bob
 
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Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

It appears the high-end audio community and manufacturers are
slow-to-market when it comes to bringing an "audiophile quality"
player. Most of the high-end literature I read is still hooked on
vinyl and 50 pound mono blocks, and thats fine, I like that too, but
its not portable.

My research into high-end audio players shows that the high-end
"audiophiles" are behind the curve in this area. And if lossless
formats do not become more widely "useable" in the new devices, the
high-end market will suffer due to no demand for audiophile lossless
formats. So I came to rec.audio.high-end to find out from the experts
what is available, and it appears there is little in a player that can
play multiple lossless formats. I've been avoiding iPods because they
only support the Apple lossless format. I may in the end have to go
with one of the portable windows media players which can apparently
play 5 or 6 different lossless codecs including apple, flac, and wma,
just like a computer. But they are larger and the op-amps and D/A
converters are really not high-end.

I need the lossless compressed formats for my dj and karaoke work as
lossy compression just does not cut it there, I'm after quality.


Ok, but understand that you're a very unusual customer. Most of us have
no need for more than one lossless format. (And besides, iPods and the
like really aren't designed for lossless formats--they use up too much
juice.) And if you hadn't ripped your CDs to a particular format before
getting a player, you wouldn't be having this problem now.

bob


--

  #9   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
jwvm
 
Posts: n/a
Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

My research into high-end audio players shows that the high-end
"audiophiles" are behind the curve in this area. And if lossless
formats do not become more widely "useable" in the new devices, the
high-end market will suffer due to no demand for audiophile lossless
formats. So I came to rec.audio.high-end to find out from the experts


bob wrote:

Ok, but understand that you're a very unusual customer. Most of us have
no need for more than one lossless format. (And besides, iPods and the
like really aren't designed for lossless formats--they use up too much
juice.) And if you hadn't ripped your CDs to a particular format before
getting a player, you wouldn't be having this problem now.

bob


I still don't understand why the OP has a problem converting between
lossless formats There is *NO* loss in quality and is very easy to do
with the right software tools. Also, it is not clear that he needs an
"audiophile" player for karaoke and dj purposes but he has a point in
needing lossless compression for voice cancellation.


--

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Posted to rec.audio.high-end
windcrest
 
Posts: n/a
Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

jwvm wrote:
My research into high-end audio players shows that the high-end
"audiophiles" are behind the curve in this area. And if lossless
formats do not become more widely "useable" in the new devices, the
high-end market will suffer due to no demand for audiophile lossless
formats. So I came to rec.audio.high-end to find out from the experts


bob wrote:

Ok, but understand that you're a very unusual customer. Most of us have
no need for more than one lossless format. (And besides, iPods and the
like really aren't designed for lossless formats--they use up too much
juice.) And if you hadn't ripped your CDs to a particular format before
getting a player, you wouldn't be having this problem now.

bob


I still don't understand why the OP has a problem converting between
lossless formats There is *NO* loss in quality and is very easy to do
with the right software tools.


Time and effort is my only problem with converting formats, I have
everything in wmalossless and flac and was hoping to find a player that
does both. I want to avoid that and be able to play either format.

Also, it is not clear that he needs an
"audiophile" player for karaoke and dj purposes but he has a point in
needing lossless compression for voice cancellation.


The horns on a typical PA system make lossy MP3 files sound horrible
compared to CD's or lossless, also anything is going to sound smoother
going through an audiophile quality A/D converter and analog buffer.
And yes the center stage phase relationships (to remove vocals) are
completely destroyed by MP3 compression, but stay intact on my
wmalossless files.

I'm looking at the Windows Media Center portables which are not really
"players" but rather palm-sized copies of Windows where you can load
whatever codecs you may need yourself, and keep them up-to-date.
Because the codecs are software based not firmware based like a regular
MP3 player would be. For my use this looks like the best route for a
flexible lossless portable solution (short of bringing a laptop). And
it will also handle my midi files and probably even play Apple lossless
if I install that codec.

I'm also still wondering why Krell or other high-end companies have not
jumped on lossless with their own players. Looks like Apple will
dictate the music technology of the future, CD's will one day
disappear, and all consumer media will be lossy compressed, sad if that
happens, I know jazz artists now who would like to scrap CD's and sell
only MP3's online.


--



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bob
 
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Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

windcrest wrote:

I'm also still wondering why Krell or other high-end companies have not
jumped on lossless with their own players.


Krell makes portables??? News to me.

Looks like Apple will
dictate the music technology of the future, CD's will one day
disappear, and all consumer media will be lossy compressed,


Don't hold your breath. They still sold 700 million CDs in the U.S.
last year. Legal download sales were the equivalent of about 50 million
CDs. By the time downloads catch up to CDs, the bandwidth may be there
to support lossless downloads.

sad if that
happens, I know jazz artists now who would like to scrap CD's and sell
only MP3's online.


That might be more a reflection of their treatment by record labels
than anything else.

bob


--

  #12   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
windcrest
 
Posts: n/a
Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

windcrest wrote:
Does anyone know of a portable audio player that can play both WMA
lossless and/or FLAC files? I have spent the last year or so ripping
all my CD's to wma lossless for home use, now I am at a loss for
finding a wma lossless audio player. I am willing to re-rip all the
CD's to FLAC and give up on wma lossless if I can find a FLAC player,
but would rather find a wma lossless player. (note, I am not willing
to listen to compressed audio).

Thanks for any suggestions on a player.


--


I found my answer on another group and am following up here as an
FYI...

The Toshiba gigabeat S apparently is the first device to actually
play back WMA lossless without transcoding. And it also looks like
Music Giant is beginning to offer WMA lossless music downloads. I
still prefer to rip from my own CD's, but it's good to know that as
CD's
are phased out their quality will still apparently be available with
lossless
downloads.

I'm going to look seriosly at the The Toshiba Gigabeat S unit over
other "lossy" players that rely on internal downward transcoding to
fool you into thinking you are playing lossless.

Thanks for other suggestions, but so far this appears to fit my
requirements best.


--

  #13   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
Giles
 
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Default WMA lossless or FLAC audio player?

In article , windcrest
wrote:

Does anyone know of a portable audio player that can play both WMA
lossless and/or FLAC files? I have spent the last year or so ripping
all my CD's to wma lossless for home use, now I am at a loss for
finding a wma lossless audio player. I am willing to re-rip all the
CD's to FLAC and give up on wma lossless if I can find a FLAC player,
but would rather find a wma lossless player. (note, I am not willing
to listen to compressed audio).

Thanks for any suggestions on a player.


You could use an iPod and rip your CD's to Apples lossless format using
iTunes.

I rip to 224 kbps AAC and cannot distinguish between the resulting
tracks played back from the iPod and the originals played on the CD
player.

Giles


--

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