Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,964
Default valve amp power output



Iain Churches wrote:

"thomas" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 27, 12:10 pm, Adam F wrote:
thomas wrote:
On May 26, 10:01 pm, Adam F wrote:
thomas wrote:
I want to buy a modern integrated valve amp that can comfortably
drive my existing speakers.
The speakers are a set of Kef Concertos, rated at 30W or a set of IMF
ALS40 rated at 40W.
The price of the amps seems to relate quite closely to the power
output, all other factors being equal. Could anyone advise on what
sort of power would be needed and whether any particular valve type
would suit this type of speaker setup. EL34 or 300B or KT66 etc ??
I have a few 70"s and 80's solid state amps and have nothing but
respect for them. I am just curious!
If you can find your speakers' efficiency rating (something along the
lines of 90dB 1W/1m) that should be more useful in choosing your amp.
If
it's not on the back, you will probably be able to find it on the net
somewhere.

If you're lucky and the speakers are 90dB+ you might be able to get
away
with a fairly low-powered amp.

--
//Adam F

The KEF is rated 87%...not sure what this is in DB? , while the IMF is
98DB.
What is fairly low?.
Many amps are only 8W per channel!
Thomas

Well 87 is relatively low, and 98 is relatively very high. No idea why
it says 87% - maybe it's just d and B stuck together or
something...anyway with the IMFs you may consider the volume (SPL) from
an 8W Valve amp more than enough, but don't expect to be wowed by the
bass.

The best exp I ever had with my speakers (which have a sensitivity of
95dB) was with a 20Wpc EL34 integrated amp, but this was only on one
album which featured mainly female vocals. I couldn't live with it for
most other music, but YMMV.

All other things being equal, to get a valve amp which would be as good
an all-rounder as my Rega Brio (30Wpc solid state) I think I would have
had to spend at least $2k, maybe 3. If my speakers were less efficient,
I'd need more power too, making a good valve amp a totally unrealistic
proposition (maybe $5k+).

HTH

--
//Adam F


Thanks to all those who have replied. I think the sound quality will
always be very subjective and dependent on so many variables.
Listening to other peoples systems is fun, but if they have different
speakers and CD or phono, not to mention the carpets and the ceiling
and the glass doors etc etc, it is very difficult to make an informed
decision. My main reason for the post was to find what power range I
should be looking in. And Adam H, the 87%efficiency came from a test
chart for the Concerto speaker, produced by the original retailer a
few decades back. They reprinted it from Australian HI Fi magazine.
The speakers have no info.on the backs!
I had been hoping for some input from people who build amps , as they
should have a better feel for purely physical power output
requirements. My poorly informed guess would be a minimum of 20W. The
solid state amp I use at the moment is only abut 30W per channel and
it is operating way down at the bottom of the volume setting on those
speakers.
regards
Thomas


Hi Thomas. Sorry for picking up on this thread so late. I have a pair of
vintage Kef K1 Monitors, large floor standers - just a a few pairs built for
the BBC and UK studios. My room is about 50 sq metres, and I can drive
the Kefs to very high levels indeed with a homebrew EL34 PP UL tube
amp rated at 25W (0.1% THD)

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...omesystem.html

Regards
Iain


I really don't know why anyone would ever bother with a PP tube amp
with only two 6BQ5 per channel which gives about 12watts, such as the
Leak 2020,
or two EL34, which are good for up to an unreliable high thd power of 65
watts,
or lower 32 watts of power at lower thd.

I say this because old speakers made in 1960 often made 96dB/W/M.
So 12 watts was more than enough.

Some of today's speakers often do only 86dB/W/M, so 120 watts is
appropriate.

But suppose speakers make 89dB/W/M, then 60 watts is OK.

My own speakers are 88dB/W/M approximately, all SEAS drivers.

A 5050 stero amp which makes 35 watts mainly class A into 8 ohms, 54
watts into 4 ohms,
and 20 watts of class A, and about 65 watts max at about 3 ohms using a
pair of
KT88, 6550, or KT90 is my recomendation,
although I find my SEUL 23 watters give me all I want.

Don't buy a Woodham CR stereo integrated tube amp; its a smoke producer
and horrible to service,
and very poorly designed.

Some chinese amps are very cheap, and extremely poor quality
with no back up service at all.
They are nice to look at, but when you examine the
schematic and performance figures they are mostly quite attrocious.
They are designed by the same fuctards who make Goochi handbags and
Rolecks watches,
to sell to fools with too much money and no ability to discern quality.

Manely Labs Snappers are good, with 4 x EL34 per channel,
also prone to make smoke unless very much re-designed and re-wired,
as are many ARC and CJ amps if not serviced properly.

I have to fix and repair and rewire all this crap,
and did two chinese HongKong Hi-Fi amps last year,
and have a CR Woodham ready for complete re-design and rewiring to
my own more conservative and simple designs which have slightly
less power than that advertised by ****wits trying to get sales with
watts.

Its very common for idiot modern designers to try to
use 600V B+ rails for power amps and anode loads
which are far too low for the tubes to handle.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills.

Patrick Turner.
  #2   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
tubegarden tubegarden is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 343
Default valve amp power output

On May 27, 8:58?am, Patrick Turner wrote:

I really don't know why anyone would ever bother with a PP tube amp
with only two 6BQ5 per channel which gives about 12watts, such as the
Leak 2020,
or two EL34, which are good for up to an unreliable high thd power of 65
watts,
or lower 32 watts of power at lower thd.

I say this because old speakers made in 1960 often made 96dB/W/M.
So 12 watts was more than enough.

Some of today's speakers often do only 86dB/W/M, so 120 watts is
appropriate.




Hi RATs!

Some folks like higher output speakers.

No amplifier of any design or topology sounds better louder than
softer.

We are allowed to have speakers well over 100dB/W/M.

Or you can search for some 70 dB jobbies to really work your Krell

Happy Ears!
Al


  #3   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17,262
Default valve amp power output

"tubegarden" wrote in message
oups.com

We are allowed to have speakers well over 100dB/W/M.


Please name a commercial volume-produced loudspeaker with 20-20 KHz
reseponse +/- 3 dB that meets that spec.


  #4   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
John Byrns John Byrns is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,441
Default valve amp power output

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"tubegarden" wrote in message
oups.com

We are allowed to have speakers well over 100dB/W/M.


Please name a commercial volume-produced loudspeaker with 20-20 KHz
reseponse +/- 3 dB that meets that spec.


Would 50 Hz TO 20 KHz +/- 3 dB be OK?


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/
  #5   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
tubegarden tubegarden is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 343
Default valve amp power output

*"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"tubegarden" wrote in message
roups.com


We are allowed to have speakers well over 100dB/W/M.


Please name a commercial volume-produced loudspeaker with 20-20 KHz
reseponse +/- 3 dB that meets that spec.


Some of us are not into volume nor brand names.

My Lambda TDMMM15 in Edgar horns seem to make pleasant sounds, almost
always.

You never do. You are an unpleasant human being. So what?

Happy Ears!

Al




  #6   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Alan Rutlidge Alan Rutlidge is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default valve amp power output


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"tubegarden" wrote in message
oups.com

We are allowed to have speakers well over 100dB/W/M.


Please name a commercial volume-produced loudspeaker with 20-20 KHz
reseponse +/- 3 dB that meets that spec.


Arny, now you really are being a tool. Place any speaker in just about any
real living room and the frequency response measured under anechoic
conditions means nothing.

A model that is fairly efficient - 95dB/W/m and frequency response 23Hz -
20kHz.
http://www.equinoxaudio.com.au/produ...rs/jupiter.php The pair I own
are a previous version using the Audax Aerogel bass and mid drivers, and if
memory serves me correctly were spec'd at 1dB more efficient.

Okay, not over 100dB/W/m but definitely a hi-fi speaker and not a sound
reinforcement PA speaker.
No doubt if one was to ferret around enough one could find more efficient
models with a similar useful frequency response, but frankly I'd probably be
wasting my time as you have obviously already made up your mind and the
matter is closed for discussion.

"...all CD players sound the same...." - Arny Krueger :P





  #7   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,964
Default valve amp power output



tubegarden wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"tubegarden" wrote in message
roups.com


We are allowed to have speakers well over 100dB/W/M.


Please name a commercial volume-produced loudspeaker with 20-20 KHz
reseponse +/- 3 dB that meets that spec.


Some of us are not into volume nor brand names.

My Lambda TDMMM15 in Edgar horns seem to make pleasant sounds, almost
always.

You never do. You are an unpleasant human being. So what?

Happy Ears!

Al


Nobody I know has Egdar horms, or Kplisch either,
but a few have cobbled up systems with 15" old Altec bass reflex,
Altec or JBL horns for midrange and treble,
and the power needed NEVER exceeds 1/4 of a watt average power,
so a 4 watt SET tube amp is quite OK to power the whole system.

Once sensitivity is over 96dB, very little power is needed,
and the horned systems described which I have measured in my client's
rooms
gave a good response, and were flatter than the most sensitive
dynamic drivers without horn loading.

Many older dynamic speakers made for tube amps in the 50s and 60s
with extremely light cone mass had attrociously non flat responses,
and only a few measured OK and sounded well, imho.

Generally the more sensitive a dynamic driver becomes, the less flat
will
be its response. The SEAS 5" midranges I have in my system
are remarkably flat compared to anything from 40 years ago.
They also need 4 times the power for the same SPL.

OK, so use KT88 instead of EL84.

2 x EL84 can do what one EL34 can do,
and 4 x EL84 can do what 1 x KT88 can do.

Patrick Turner.
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17,262
Default valve amp power output

"John Byrns" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"tubegarden" wrote in message
oups.com

We are allowed to have speakers well over 100dB/W/M.


Please name a commercial volume-produced loudspeaker
with 20-20 KHz reseponse +/- 3 dB that meets that spec.


Would 50 Hz TO 20 KHz +/- 3 dB be OK?


Good enough for live sound, but not hi-fi.


  #9   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17,262
Default valve amp power output

"Alan Rutlidge" wrote
in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"tubegarden" wrote in message
oups.com

We are allowed to have speakers well over 100dB/W/M.


Please name a commercial volume-produced loudspeaker
with 20-20 KHz reseponse +/- 3 dB that meets that spec.


Arny, now you really are being a tool.


No, I'm making a point.

Place any speaker
in just about any real living room and the frequency
response measured under anechoic conditions means nothing.


That's not the question I asked. Congratulations on missing the point.

A model that is fairly efficient - 95dB/W/m and frequency
response 23Hz - 20kHz.
http://www.equinoxaudio.com.au/produ...rs/jupiter.php


That would be 5 dB short of spec - down near just 30% of specified power.

If someone has said that we are allowed to have speakers as much as 95
dB/W/M, there would be nothing to talk about.

But, they didn't. Deal with it!



  #10   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Iain Churches Iain Churches is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 462
Default valve amp power output


"Alan Rutlidge" wrote in message
...

Arny, now you really are being a tool.


Hi Alan. Is that a polite way of saying "pillock"?
If, so, I second your appraisal.

"...all CD players sound the same...." - Arny Krueger :P


Except the ones that sound different.


Iain






  #11   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Andre Jute Andre Jute is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,661
Default valve amp power output


tubegarden wrote:
On May 27, 8:58?am, Patrick Turner wrote:

I really don't know why anyone would ever bother with a PP tube amp
with only two 6BQ5 per channel which gives about 12watts, such as the
Leak 2020,
or two EL34, which are good for up to an unreliable high thd power of 65
watts,
or lower 32 watts of power at lower thd.


Well, if you insist on using insensitive speakers, you will always be
forced to commit stupidities like maxing out the dissipation of the
tubes into gross illinearities.

About the EL84: it has a great advantage of delicacy in the sound if
only people will use it appropriately and have the taste to listen for
that delicacy. I eventually settled on using EL84 as the top tube in
SRPP and mu-follower stages precisely because it makes the stage sound
so stupendously precise without losing the inside track of the music
and the ambience, without drowning it. Used like that, or SE-tied by
itself as a driver for a DHT, EL84 never fail to be sweet enough to
give those double-digit drivers so beloved of Andy Evans a run for
their money at a minute fraction of the price. Of course, if you just
hog them out regardless, you will miss all this beauty.

I say this because old speakers made in 1960 often made 96dB/W/M.
So 12 watts was more than enough.

Some of today's speakers often do only 86dB/W/M, so 120 watts is
appropriate.


That's false logic. All you do is go to a driver manufacturer who
makes drivers of the sensitivity you want. Many guitar driver makers
produce very nice sensitive speakers, and Lowther, and Fostex and a
scad of Japanese companies who don't normally hear of on RAT, and
several rather pricey French makers.

Hi RATs!

Some folks like higher output speakers.

No amplifier of any design or topology sounds better louder than
softer.


An apparently forgotten fundamental truth of audio.

We are allowed to have speakers well over 100dB/W/M.


Nobody allows me to choose proper speakers, Al, I was born with that
right. Everyone else has the right to be fashion victims, if they
choose.

Or you can search for some 70 dB jobbies to really work your Krell


Years ago had the privilege of seeing a man, after I installed 845
amps and horns on his yacht, throw a big Krell amp over the rail into
the sea.

Unfortunately I can't pretend it was a pleasure. I thought he was
carrying the Krell outside to give to me, as we had already carried
the Wilson speakers (amazingly good, actually, with my Quad 405 Mk II)
out for me to take away. When he threw the Krell overboard I exclaimed
in surprise. I was ****ed off. I wanted those wonderful, thick, big
heat sinks, which must account for half the factory gate price of the
Krell, with marketing accounting for the other half. I had a high
waste-heat project in mind (SE transistors). When I had to have
heatsinks cast, they cost me several hundred dollars, which I wouldn't
have had to spend if I coulda taken the heatsinks off that Krell.
Tsch. Still, you can't win 'em all.

Happy Ears!
Al


Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

  #12   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
west[_4_] west[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 102
Default valve amp power output


"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

"thomas" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 27, 12:10 pm, Adam F wrote:
thomas wrote:
On May 26, 10:01 pm, Adam F

wrote:
thomas wrote:
I want to buy a modern integrated valve amp that can comfortably
drive my existing speakers.
The speakers are a set of Kef Concertos, rated at 30W or a set of

IMF
ALS40 rated at 40W.
The price of the amps seems to relate quite closely to the power
output, all other factors being equal. Could anyone advise on

what
sort of power would be needed and whether any particular valve

type
would suit this type of speaker setup. EL34 or 300B or KT66 etc

??
I have a few 70"s and 80's solid state amps and have nothing but
respect for them. I am just curious!
If you can find your speakers' efficiency rating (something along

the
lines of 90dB 1W/1m) that should be more useful in choosing your

amp.
If
it's not on the back, you will probably be able to find it on the

net
somewhere.

If you're lucky and the speakers are 90dB+ you might be able to

get
away
with a fairly low-powered amp.

--
//Adam F

The KEF is rated 87%...not sure what this is in DB? , while the IMF

is
98DB.
What is fairly low?.
Many amps are only 8W per channel!
Thomas

Well 87 is relatively low, and 98 is relatively very high. No idea

why
it says 87% - maybe it's just d and B stuck together or
something...anyway with the IMFs you may consider the volume (SPL)

from
an 8W Valve amp more than enough, but don't expect to be wowed by the
bass.

The best exp I ever had with my speakers (which have a sensitivity of
95dB) was with a 20Wpc EL34 integrated amp, but this was only on one
album which featured mainly female vocals. I couldn't live with it

for
most other music, but YMMV.

All other things being equal, to get a valve amp which would be as

good
an all-rounder as my Rega Brio (30Wpc solid state) I think I would

have
had to spend at least $2k, maybe 3. If my speakers were less

efficient,
I'd need more power too, making a good valve amp a totally

unrealistic
proposition (maybe $5k+).

HTH

--
//Adam F

Thanks to all those who have replied. I think the sound quality will
always be very subjective and dependent on so many variables.
Listening to other peoples systems is fun, but if they have different
speakers and CD or phono, not to mention the carpets and the ceiling
and the glass doors etc etc, it is very difficult to make an informed
decision. My main reason for the post was to find what power range I
should be looking in. And Adam H, the 87%efficiency came from a test
chart for the Concerto speaker, produced by the original retailer a
few decades back. They reprinted it from Australian HI Fi magazine.
The speakers have no info.on the backs!
I had been hoping for some input from people who build amps , as they
should have a better feel for purely physical power output
requirements. My poorly informed guess would be a minimum of 20W. The
solid state amp I use at the moment is only abut 30W per channel and
it is operating way down at the bottom of the volume setting on those
speakers.
regards
Thomas


Hi Thomas. Sorry for picking up on this thread so late. I have a pair

of
vintage Kef K1 Monitors, large floor standers - just a a few pairs built

for
the BBC and UK studios. My room is about 50 sq metres, and I can drive
the Kefs to very high levels indeed with a homebrew EL34 PP UL tube
amp rated at 25W (0.1% THD)

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...omesystem.html

Regards
Iain


I really don't know why anyone would ever bother with a PP tube amp
with only two 6BQ5 per channel which gives about 12watts, such as the
Leak 2020,
or two EL34, which are good for up to an unreliable high thd power of 65
watts,
or lower 32 watts of power at lower thd.

I say this because old speakers made in 1960 often made 96dB/W/M.
So 12 watts was more than enough.

Some of today's speakers often do only 86dB/W/M, so 120 watts is
appropriate.

But suppose speakers make 89dB/W/M, then 60 watts is OK.

My own speakers are 88dB/W/M approximately, all SEAS drivers.

A 5050 stero amp which makes 35 watts mainly class A into 8 ohms, 54
watts into 4 ohms,
and 20 watts of class A, and about 65 watts max at about 3 ohms using a
pair of
KT88, 6550, or KT90 is my recomendation,
although I find my SEUL 23 watters give me all I want.

Don't buy a Woodham CR stereo integrated tube amp; its a smoke producer
and horrible to service,
and very poorly designed.

Some chinese amps are very cheap, and extremely poor quality
with no back up service at all.
They are nice to look at, but when you examine the
schematic and performance figures they are mostly quite attrocious.
They are designed by the same fuctards who make Goochi handbags and
Rolecks watches,
to sell to fools with too much money and no ability to discern quality.

Manely Labs Snappers are good, with 4 x EL34 per channel,
also prone to make smoke unless very much re-designed and re-wired,
as are many ARC and CJ amps if not serviced properly.

I have to fix and repair and rewire all this crap,
and did two chinese HongKong Hi-Fi amps last year,
and have a CR Woodham ready for complete re-design and rewiring to
my own more conservative and simple designs which have slightly
less power than that advertised by ****wits trying to get sales with
watts.

Its very common for idiot modern designers to try to
use 600V B+ rails for power amps and anode loads
which are far too low for the tubes to handle.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills.

Patrick Turner.


Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea but want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.


west


  #13   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
west[_4_] west[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 102
Default valve amp power output


"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

"thomas" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 27, 12:10 pm, Adam F wrote:
thomas wrote:
On May 26, 10:01 pm, Adam F

wrote:
thomas wrote:
I want to buy a modern integrated valve amp that can comfortably
drive my existing speakers.
The speakers are a set of Kef Concertos, rated at 30W or a set of

IMF
ALS40 rated at 40W.
The price of the amps seems to relate quite closely to the power
output, all other factors being equal. Could anyone advise on

what
sort of power would be needed and whether any particular valve

type
would suit this type of speaker setup. EL34 or 300B or KT66 etc

??
I have a few 70"s and 80's solid state amps and have nothing but
respect for them. I am just curious!
If you can find your speakers' efficiency rating (something along

the
lines of 90dB 1W/1m) that should be more useful in choosing your

amp.
If
it's not on the back, you will probably be able to find it on the

net
somewhere.

If you're lucky and the speakers are 90dB+ you might be able to

get
away
with a fairly low-powered amp.

--
//Adam F

The KEF is rated 87%...not sure what this is in DB? , while the IMF

is
98DB.
What is fairly low?.
Many amps are only 8W per channel!
Thomas

Well 87 is relatively low, and 98 is relatively very high. No idea

why
it says 87% - maybe it's just d and B stuck together or
something...anyway with the IMFs you may consider the volume (SPL)

from
an 8W Valve amp more than enough, but don't expect to be wowed by the
bass.

The best exp I ever had with my speakers (which have a sensitivity of
95dB) was with a 20Wpc EL34 integrated amp, but this was only on one
album which featured mainly female vocals. I couldn't live with it

for
most other music, but YMMV.

All other things being equal, to get a valve amp which would be as

good
an all-rounder as my Rega Brio (30Wpc solid state) I think I would

have
had to spend at least $2k, maybe 3. If my speakers were less

efficient,
I'd need more power too, making a good valve amp a totally

unrealistic
proposition (maybe $5k+).

HTH

--
//Adam F

Thanks to all those who have replied. I think the sound quality will
always be very subjective and dependent on so many variables.
Listening to other peoples systems is fun, but if they have different
speakers and CD or phono, not to mention the carpets and the ceiling
and the glass doors etc etc, it is very difficult to make an informed
decision. My main reason for the post was to find what power range I
should be looking in. And Adam H, the 87%efficiency came from a test
chart for the Concerto speaker, produced by the original retailer a
few decades back. They reprinted it from Australian HI Fi magazine.
The speakers have no info.on the backs!
I had been hoping for some input from people who build amps , as they
should have a better feel for purely physical power output
requirements. My poorly informed guess would be a minimum of 20W. The
solid state amp I use at the moment is only abut 30W per channel and
it is operating way down at the bottom of the volume setting on those
speakers.
regards
Thomas


Hi Thomas. Sorry for picking up on this thread so late. I have a pair

of
vintage Kef K1 Monitors, large floor standers - just a a few pairs built

for
the BBC and UK studios. My room is about 50 sq metres, and I can drive
the Kefs to very high levels indeed with a homebrew EL34 PP UL tube
amp rated at 25W (0.1% THD)

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...omesystem.html

Regards
Iain


I really don't know why anyone would ever bother with a PP tube amp
with only two 6BQ5 per channel which gives about 12watts, such as the
Leak 2020,
or two EL34, which are good for up to an unreliable high thd power of 65
watts,
or lower 32 watts of power at lower thd.

I say this because old speakers made in 1960 often made 96dB/W/M.
So 12 watts was more than enough.

Some of today's speakers often do only 86dB/W/M, so 120 watts is
appropriate.

But suppose speakers make 89dB/W/M, then 60 watts is OK.

My own speakers are 88dB/W/M approximately, all SEAS drivers.

A 5050 stero amp which makes 35 watts mainly class A into 8 ohms, 54
watts into 4 ohms,
and 20 watts of class A, and about 65 watts max at about 3 ohms using a
pair of
KT88, 6550, or KT90 is my recomendation,
although I find my SEUL 23 watters give me all I want.

Don't buy a Woodham CR stereo integrated tube amp; its a smoke producer
and horrible to service,
and very poorly designed.

Some chinese amps are very cheap, and extremely poor quality
with no back up service at all.
They are nice to look at, but when you examine the
schematic and performance figures they are mostly quite attrocious.
They are designed by the same fuctards who make Goochi handbags and
Rolecks watches,
to sell to fools with too much money and no ability to discern quality.

Manely Labs Snappers are good, with 4 x EL34 per channel,
also prone to make smoke unless very much re-designed and re-wired,
as are many ARC and CJ amps if not serviced properly.

I have to fix and repair and rewire all this crap,
and did two chinese HongKong Hi-Fi amps last year,
and have a CR Woodham ready for complete re-design and rewiring to
my own more conservative and simple designs which have slightly
less power than that advertised by ****wits trying to get sales with
watts.

Its very common for idiot modern designers to try to
use 600V B+ rails for power amps and anode loads
which are far too low for the tubes to handle.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills.

Patrick Turner.


Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea but want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.


west



  #14   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Alan Rutlidge Alan Rutlidge is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default valve amp power output


"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Alan Rutlidge" wrote in message
...

Arny, now you really are being a tool.


Hi Alan. Is that a polite way of saying "pillock"?
If, so, I second your appraisal.


Yep, tool = pillock


"...all CD players sound the same...." - Arny Krueger :P


Except the ones that sound different.


Yes, I've always wondered how Arny could put a rating on them, as in his own
words "..all CD players sound the same.." ??? Perhaps his rating system
refers to the cosmetics - 5 points for shiny buttons, -2 points for a clunky
remote control etc, etc..???? - you know all the things that have nothing to
do with the sound quality. LOL.



Iain


Cheers,
Alan


  #15   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,964
Default valve amp power output


snip the comments that don't need repeating...

Its very common for idiot modern designers to try to
use 600V B+ rails for power amps and anode loads
which are far too low for the tubes to handle.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills.

Patrick Turner.


Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea but want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.


west


Just follow the designs at my website and you won't get too much smoke.

The expansion on the statement I made above about many modern amps is
18MB in size at my site.

Tubes have remained the same for 40 years.

A KT88 made now has the same specs as it did 40 years ago.
But some may say although the specs are the same, a KT88 made in 1967
was a better longer lasting KT88 than anything made now.

Therefore its better to operate KT88 made now at lower Ea
and Ia to extend the life and gain reliablity.

But no, ****ing modernists try to force modern made tubes into ever more
difficult
operating regions to gain a market edge.

The people in charge of design are market ****wits.

There are no market ****wits, bean counters, cost reducers, or
shareholders
in the TA empire which mainly consists of one man.

Apart from the KT90, very few output tube inovations have occured
to allow the serious serious design mistakes now made so frequently to
be tolerated.

Patrick Turner.


  #16   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
atec 7 7 atec 7 7 is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default valve amp power output

Patrick Turner wrote:
snip the comments that don't need repeating...

Its very common for idiot modern designers to try to
use 600V B+ rails for power amps and anode loads
which are far too low for the tubes to handle.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills.

Patrick Turner.

Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea but want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

west


Just follow the designs at my website and you won't get too much smoke.

The expansion on the statement I made above about many modern amps is
18MB in size at my site.

Tubes have remained the same for 40 years.

A KT88 made now has the same specs as it did 40 years ago.
But some may say although the specs are the same, a KT88 made in 1967
was a better longer lasting KT88 than anything made now.

Therefore its better to operate KT88 made now at lower Ea
and Ia to extend the life and gain reliablity.

But no, ****ing modernists try to force modern made tubes into ever more
difficult
operating regions to gain a market edge.

The people in charge of design are market ****wits.

There are no market ****wits, bean counters, cost reducers, or
shareholders
in the TA empire which mainly consists of one man.

Apart from the KT90, very few output tube inovations have occured
to allow the serious serious design mistakes now made so frequently to
be tolerated.

Patrick Turner.

Recently I attended a ham fest on the Gold Coast and stumbled on a
Dynaco 35 amplifier , not being familiar with this particualr unit
apart from checking caps is there anything you would suggest checking
before pressing into use ? ( I figure at $100.00 I shouldn't go wrong
  #17   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
west[_4_] west[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 102
Default valve amp power output PPT


"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

snip the comments that don't need repeating...

Its very common for idiot modern designers to try to
use 600V B+ rails for power amps and anode loads
which are far too low for the tubes to handle.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills.

Patrick Turner.


Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea but

want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.


west


Just follow the designs at my website and you won't get too much smoke.

The expansion on the statement I made above about many modern amps is
18MB in size at my site.

Tubes have remained the same for 40 years.

A KT88 made now has the same specs as it did 40 years ago.
But some may say although the specs are the same, a KT88 made in 1967
was a better longer lasting KT88 than anything made now.

Therefore its better to operate KT88 made now at lower Ea
and Ia to extend the life and gain reliablity.

But no, ****ing modernists try to force modern made tubes into ever more
difficult
operating regions to gain a market edge.

The people in charge of design are market ****wits.

There are no market ****wits, bean counters, cost reducers, or
shareholders
in the TA empire which mainly consists of one man.

Apart from the KT90, very few output tube inovations have occured
to allow the serious serious design mistakes now made so frequently to
be tolerated.

Patrick Turner.



Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than

have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.


Patrick Turner.


Professor, please expand all the reasons why on the above statement of
yours. I have an idea but wish to hear it from you, if you don't mind.
Thanks.

west


  #18   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,964
Default valve amp power output PPT


Professor, please expand all the reasons why on the above statement of
yours. I have an idea but wish to hear it from you, if you don't mind.
Thanks.

west


OK, the statement you want me to expand upon is

" Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation
because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills."


Now West, to avoid the endless repetition of
good tube amp building design practice, and to avoid
posting the contents of my website here which does explain best
practices
with regard to loading, B+ levels and biasing, try reading the website
to see how decent amps should be built.

I get a few customers each few months who come to me with tube amps that
give more smoke
than music, mainly because of practices very inferior to what appears at
my site.
Biasing is lousy, tubes too hot, B+ is way too high,
loads are way too low, and driver stages saturate.
They oscillate all too easily, and quality of OPT, pots, PCBs, soldering
is all quite shonky.

All the rules of good design are now being disobeyed by a string of low
brow makers
who make very nice looking amps which have very poor design and internal
quality.

The liberation of millions to be able to trade ever more widely than
ever before
without too many middlemen means that a means to getting dollars
is more available now than ever before. Far greater opportunities to
fool people exist,
and the foolers, and foolees multiply.

Gone are the days when any public scrutiny is applied to a product
before it is marketed.

These arsolic concoctions are being made because its possible for a
Chinese
or Thai, or UK maker to direct market the product without middlemen, and
as you should know,
money is the root of all evil and if there is a way to avoid rules, and
just sell crap,
and get ahead, then some arsole will be on deck to provide the goods
only fools will buy.

Mankind and womenkind are a fundememtally flawed species.

I should not have to be such a cynic, but I assume 30% of people are
generally defective
in some way or other.

Patrick Turner.
  #19   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17,262
Default valve amp power output

"Alan Rutlidge" wrote
in message


Yes, I've always wondered how Arny could put a rating on
them, as in his own words "..all CD players sound the
same.."


A very lame joke.


  #20   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Alan Rutlidge Alan Rutlidge is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default valve amp power output


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Alan Rutlidge" wrote
in message


Yes, I've always wondered how Arny could put a rating on
them, as in his own words "..all CD players sound the
same.."


A very lame joke.


Hey, they are your words Arny, aren't they? Or are you now suggesting you
were wrong?





  #21   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
Iain Churches Iain Churches is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 462
Default valve amp power output


"west" wrote in message
news:YEH6i.51584$UD2.14268@trnddc05...

Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea but
want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.


Hi West. You can use pair of KT88s with B+ of 600V and get 100W
from them at about 0.3% THD. New production KT88s don't last too long
in that kind of application.

You can, as I have done in my 50W amp, use four EL34's in push pull
parallel, and get 50W with the same distortion as one pair give at 25W,
i.e. 0.1% The only drawback is that the heater supply requirement is
doubled, but the B+ stays at a very sensible 425V.

See:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...em/C50_002.jpg


Cordially,
Iain


  #22   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17,262
Default valve amp power output

"Alan Rutlidge" wrote
in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Alan Rutlidge"
wrote in message


Yes, I've always wondered how Arny could put a rating on
them, as in his own words "..all CD players sound the
same.."


Note that the above purported quote conceals relevant context.

A very lame joke.


Hey, they are your words Arny, aren't they?


The quote belies itself because it admits its removal of context.

Or are you now suggesting you were wrong?


I'm suggesting that your comments are playing fast and loose with the truth.
I take it that you can't do any better. ;-(


  #23   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
west[_4_] west[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 102
Default valve amp power output PIain


"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi...

"west" wrote in message
news:YEH6i.51584$UD2.14268@trnddc05...

Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea but
want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.


Hi West. You can use pair of KT88s with B+ of 600V and get 100W
from them at about 0.3% THD. New production KT88s don't last too long
in that kind of application.

You can, as I have done in my 50W amp, use four EL34's in push pull
parallel, and get 50W with the same distortion as one pair give at 25W,
i.e. 0.1% The only drawback is that the heater supply requirement is
doubled, but the B+ stays at a very sensible 425V.

See:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...em/C50_002.jpg


Cordially,
Iain


Another one of your projects that left me in absolute awe. That PS looks
testosteronic. Utter Brute Supply. Are they 2 mono supplies, L & R power
xfrs? 2 or 4 chokes per side? SS rectification? I'm very curious to know
more of your project even how you interfaced the power connection. Thanks
for letting me in on it. It may be nice if you started or I can start a new
thread on this project. I can ask about the safety concerns of external PS
interfacing.

Cordially,
west




  #24   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
west[_4_] west[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 102
Default valve amp power output PProfessor Turner


"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

snip the comments that don't need repeating...

Its very common for idiot modern designers to try to
use 600V B+ rails for power amps and anode loads
which are far too low for the tubes to handle.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills.

Patrick Turner.


Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea but

want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.


west


Just follow the designs at my website and you won't get too much smoke.

The expansion on the statement I made above about many modern amps is
18MB in size at my site.

Tubes have remained the same for 40 years.

A KT88 made now has the same specs as it did 40 years ago.
But some may say although the specs are the same, a KT88 made in 1967
was a better longer lasting KT88 than anything made now.

Therefore its better to operate KT88 made now at lower Ea
and Ia to extend the life and gain reliablity.

But no, ****ing modernists try to force modern made tubes into ever more
difficult
operating regions to gain a market edge.

The people in charge of design are market ****wits.

There are no market ****wits, bean counters, cost reducers, or
shareholders
in the TA empire which mainly consists of one man.

Apart from the KT90, very few output tube inovations have occured
to allow the serious serious design mistakes now made so frequently to
be tolerated.

Patrick Turner.


Professor: I wished in a way we lived closer so I can show you not only
some of the Asian junk I've accumulated, but a few Asian items that leave me
scratching my head about how inexpensive they can produce some of the items.
BTW: I'm glad that you wasn't one of my professors. I think you would of
been tougher than Harvard's Professor Kinsley from "The Paper Chase."


  #25   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,964
Default valve amp power output PProfessor Turner



west wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

snip the comments that don't need repeating...

Its very common for idiot modern designers to try to
use 600V B+ rails for power amps and anode loads
which are far too low for the tubes to handle.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills.

Patrick Turner.

Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea but

want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

west


Just follow the designs at my website and you won't get too much smoke.

The expansion on the statement I made above about many modern amps is
18MB in size at my site.

Tubes have remained the same for 40 years.

A KT88 made now has the same specs as it did 40 years ago.
But some may say although the specs are the same, a KT88 made in 1967
was a better longer lasting KT88 than anything made now.

Therefore its better to operate KT88 made now at lower Ea
and Ia to extend the life and gain reliablity.

But no, ****ing modernists try to force modern made tubes into ever more
difficult
operating regions to gain a market edge.

The people in charge of design are market ****wits.

There are no market ****wits, bean counters, cost reducers, or
shareholders
in the TA empire which mainly consists of one man.

Apart from the KT90, very few output tube inovations have occured
to allow the serious serious design mistakes now made so frequently to
be tolerated.

Patrick Turner.


Professor: I wished in a way we lived closer so I can show you not only
some of the Asian junk I've accumulated, but a few Asian items that leave me
scratching my head about how inexpensive they can produce some of the items.
BTW: I'm glad that you wasn't one of my professors. I think you would of
been tougher than Harvard's Professor Kinsley from "The Paper Chase."


I try to be fair to anyone who will listen to me.

If I seem hard, its because BS is knee deep all around me.

Anyway, I get fed up with having to fix the mistakes of the crap
launched onto the
gullible Mr Joe Public who fools himself into thinking asian crap will
be fine to own for the next
20 years. It won't be.

No need to scratch the head and wonder why the asians do it so cheap.

Firstly, most asians are dirt poor, and wanna be like us, so they'll do
anything
to escape povety and get rich.

Secondly, wages in China are $2 a day, not $50 per hour.

Thirdly, asians supply other asians with raw materials such as R, C and
wire, and laminations and metal
for chassis at far lower prices than Radio Shack prices.

When you buy bowl of noodles in Shanghi, and if you pay what the locals
pay,
that bowl costs 10c. The whole price structure of the internal economies
of asian nations
is based on peanut values being traded.
A bloke I knew said he bought 3 filipino women for a nights
entertainment for $10
in Manila. They all laughed and joked and looked beautiful as he ****ed,
sucked, and sodomised his
way through the night.
At Bali where I met him, he complained all the sheilas were "locked up"
at night.

I explained, Islam limits where the prick may wander.

The same service for a night of lust in Oz would be $5,000, and girls
ain't so cheerful,
and they want extra for every second thing you ask for.

A bowl of noodles in NY might cost $10.

So the dumb asians slave away trading with each other without being able
to upgrade their
lives to our standards overnight, but nevertheless it will take only a
couple of generations.
The bright smart types in china see that if they sell some utter crap to
you
sitting over in Richland in a direct marketing deal, they get a winfall.
Receiving $500 for an amp that cost them
$50 to build is like me winning the lottery. If the amp blows up within
a fortnight,
or just sounds really bad, you ain't gonna have the airforce bomb them.
You can't do anything about it.


But nothing I can make is attractive to them, unless its a fancy
military weapon,
or a medical machine for the rich, or a design for an instant city for a
million ppl
which will make the chinese tycoons arrangeing it all stoinkingly rich.
Oz also sells iron ore and coal to china, hungry to expand, and there
isn't any handcrafting
in a ship full of coal.


Patrick Turner.


  #26   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Peter Wieck Peter Wieck is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,418
Default valve amp power output

On May 29, 1:08 am, atec 7 7 wrote:

Recently I attended a ham fest on the Gold Coast and stumbled on a
Dynaco 35 amplifier , not being familiar with this particualr unit
apart from checking caps is there anything you would suggest checking
before pressing into use ? ( I figure at $100.00 I shouldn't go wrong-


The ST-35 is a very nice little amp (at "rated" 17.5 WPC on the
downhill with a strong tailwind, it is little) with few problems. But
those problems are, in no particular order:

a) A severe intolerance of very badly matched output tubes. Normal
slight variations across the class of 6BQ5/EL84 clones and variations
are well tolerated. But mixing of old/new in the same channel will
cause problems.
b) If the old phenolic boards are in place, check _ALL_ the traces
carefully, check for cold-solders and cracked wires at solder points.
Better yet, get the glass replacement boards and do them all over with
all-new components.
c) Replace _all_ low-value caps, irrespective of location and existing
type, including the discs and silver-mica types. Hafler used the
cheapest possible parts when he made these beasts and all of them are
questionable.
c) The electrolytics *may* be OK.... until they are not.
d) It is useful to add an on/off switch. I tend to do that with a
properly rated line-cord switch rather than drilling or punching the
chassis.
e) It is a little sensitive to wire path and placement. So if you get
untoward hum or other similar artifacts after restoration, you may
have to reposition wires under the chassis. But once done, it should
be dead-quiet with shorted inputs.

Apart from the effects of age and built-parts quality, this is one of
the nicest little mass-market power-amps ever made in its class. It
became the basis of the Dynaco SCA-35, and was cloned by many other
makers over the years. It uses common, inexpensive tubes and is pretty
easy on them (in my experience) if the amp is not abused and one does
not expect it to produce vast amounts of volume from inefficient
speakers. I keep one and will likely forever.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

  #27   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
atec 7 7 atec 7 7 is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default valve amp power output

Peter Wieck wrote:
On May 29, 1:08 am, atec 7 7 wrote:

Recently I attended a ham fest on the Gold Coast and stumbled on a
Dynaco 35 amplifier , not being familiar with this particualr unit
apart from checking caps is there anything you would suggest checking
before pressing into use ? ( I figure at $100.00 I shouldn't go wrong-


The ST-35 is a very nice little amp (at "rated" 17.5 WPC on the
downhill with a strong tailwind, it is little) with few problems. But
those problems are, in no particular order:

a) A severe intolerance of very badly matched output tubes. Normal
slight variations across the class of 6BQ5/EL84 clones and variations
are well tolerated. But mixing of old/new in the same channel will
cause problems.
b) If the old phenolic boards are in place, check _ALL_ the traces
carefully, check for cold-solders and cracked wires at solder points.
Better yet, get the glass replacement boards and do them all over with
all-new components.
c) Replace _all_ low-value caps, irrespective of location and existing
type, including the discs and silver-mica types. Hafler used the
cheapest possible parts when he made these beasts and all of them are
questionable.
c) The electrolytics *may* be OK.... until they are not.
d) It is useful to add an on/off switch. I tend to do that with a
properly rated line-cord switch rather than drilling or punching the
chassis.
e) It is a little sensitive to wire path and placement. So if you get
untoward hum or other similar artifacts after restoration, you may
have to reposition wires under the chassis. But once done, it should
be dead-quiet with shorted inputs.

Apart from the effects of age and built-parts quality, this is one of
the nicest little mass-market power-amps ever made in its class. It
became the basis of the Dynaco SCA-35, and was cloned by many other
makers over the years. It uses common, inexpensive tubes and is pretty
easy on them (in my experience) if the amp is not abused and one does
not expect it to produce vast amounts of volume from inefficient
speakers. I keep one and will likely forever.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

Thanks , pretty much done most of the work already but still fiddling a
little with it , just driving a pair of old Tannoys , sounds quite sweet
here in the office
  #28   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Mark[_2_] Mark[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default valve amp power output PProfessor Turner

"A bloke I knew" hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

"They all laughed and joked and looked beautiful as he ****ed, sucked, and
sodomised his way through the night."

yep...


"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


west wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

snip the comments that don't need repeating...

Its very common for idiot modern designers to try to
use 600V B+ rails for power amps and anode loads
which are far too low for the tubes to handle.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather
than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation
because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way
too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills.

Patrick Turner.

Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea
but

want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather
than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

west

Just follow the designs at my website and you won't get too much smoke.

The expansion on the statement I made above about many modern amps is
18MB in size at my site.

Tubes have remained the same for 40 years.

A KT88 made now has the same specs as it did 40 years ago.
But some may say although the specs are the same, a KT88 made in 1967
was a better longer lasting KT88 than anything made now.

Therefore its better to operate KT88 made now at lower Ea
and Ia to extend the life and gain reliablity.

But no, ****ing modernists try to force modern made tubes into ever
more
difficult
operating regions to gain a market edge.

The people in charge of design are market ****wits.

There are no market ****wits, bean counters, cost reducers, or
shareholders
in the TA empire which mainly consists of one man.

Apart from the KT90, very few output tube inovations have occured
to allow the serious serious design mistakes now made so frequently to
be tolerated.

Patrick Turner.


Professor: I wished in a way we lived closer so I can show you not only
some of the Asian junk I've accumulated, but a few Asian items that leave
me
scratching my head about how inexpensive they can produce some of the
items.
BTW: I'm glad that you wasn't one of my professors. I think you would of
been tougher than Harvard's Professor Kinsley from "The Paper Chase."


I try to be fair to anyone who will listen to me.

If I seem hard, its because BS is knee deep all around me.

Anyway, I get fed up with having to fix the mistakes of the crap
launched onto the
gullible Mr Joe Public who fools himself into thinking asian crap will
be fine to own for the next
20 years. It won't be.

No need to scratch the head and wonder why the asians do it so cheap.

Firstly, most asians are dirt poor, and wanna be like us, so they'll do
anything
to escape povety and get rich.

Secondly, wages in China are $2 a day, not $50 per hour.

Thirdly, asians supply other asians with raw materials such as R, C and
wire, and laminations and metal
for chassis at far lower prices than Radio Shack prices.

When you buy bowl of noodles in Shanghi, and if you pay what the locals
pay,
that bowl costs 10c. The whole price structure of the internal economies
of asian nations
is based on peanut values being traded.
A bloke I knew said he bought 3 filipino women for a nights
entertainment for $10
in Manila. They all laughed and joked and looked beautiful as he ****ed,
sucked, and sodomised his
way through the night.
At Bali where I met him, he complained all the sheilas were "locked up"
at night.

I explained, Islam limits where the prick may wander.

The same service for a night of lust in Oz would be $5,000, and girls
ain't so cheerful,
and they want extra for every second thing you ask for.

A bowl of noodles in NY might cost $10.

So the dumb asians slave away trading with each other without being able
to upgrade their
lives to our standards overnight, but nevertheless it will take only a
couple of generations.
The bright smart types in china see that if they sell some utter crap to
you
sitting over in Richland in a direct marketing deal, they get a winfall.
Receiving $500 for an amp that cost them
$50 to build is like me winning the lottery. If the amp blows up within
a fortnight,
or just sounds really bad, you ain't gonna have the airforce bomb them.
You can't do anything about it.


But nothing I can make is attractive to them, unless its a fancy
military weapon,
or a medical machine for the rich, or a design for an instant city for a
million ppl
which will make the chinese tycoons arrangeing it all stoinkingly rich.
Oz also sells iron ore and coal to china, hungry to expand, and there
isn't any handcrafting
in a ship full of coal.


Patrick Turner.



  #29   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Mark[_4_] Mark[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default valve amp power output PProfessor Turner

Well there ya go. That's Prof. Turners, "****, suck and sodomise"
explaination for why the Asians can't make anything 'Hi-Fi'.

Group sex is cheap in Manila. Stands up to reason, really.



"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


west wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

snip the comments that don't need repeating...

Its very common for idiot modern designers to try to
use 600V B+ rails for power amps and anode loads
which are far too low for the tubes to handle.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather
than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation
because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way
too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills.

Patrick Turner.

Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea
but

want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather
than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

west

Just follow the designs at my website and you won't get too much smoke.

The expansion on the statement I made above about many modern amps is
18MB in size at my site.

Tubes have remained the same for 40 years.

A KT88 made now has the same specs as it did 40 years ago.
But some may say although the specs are the same, a KT88 made in 1967
was a better longer lasting KT88 than anything made now.

Therefore its better to operate KT88 made now at lower Ea
and Ia to extend the life and gain reliablity.

But no, ****ing modernists try to force modern made tubes into ever
more
difficult
operating regions to gain a market edge.

The people in charge of design are market ****wits.

There are no market ****wits, bean counters, cost reducers, or
shareholders
in the TA empire which mainly consists of one man.

Apart from the KT90, very few output tube inovations have occured
to allow the serious serious design mistakes now made so frequently to
be tolerated.

Patrick Turner.


Professor: I wished in a way we lived closer so I can show you not only
some of the Asian junk I've accumulated, but a few Asian items that leave
me
scratching my head about how inexpensive they can produce some of the
items.
BTW: I'm glad that you wasn't one of my professors. I think you would of
been tougher than Harvard's Professor Kinsley from "The Paper Chase."


I try to be fair to anyone who will listen to me.

If I seem hard, its because BS is knee deep all around me.

Anyway, I get fed up with having to fix the mistakes of the crap
launched onto the
gullible Mr Joe Public who fools himself into thinking asian crap will
be fine to own for the next
20 years. It won't be.

No need to scratch the head and wonder why the asians do it so cheap.

Firstly, most asians are dirt poor, and wanna be like us, so they'll do
anything
to escape povety and get rich.

Secondly, wages in China are $2 a day, not $50 per hour.

Thirdly, asians supply other asians with raw materials such as R, C and
wire, and laminations and metal
for chassis at far lower prices than Radio Shack prices.

When you buy bowl of noodles in Shanghi, and if you pay what the locals
pay,
that bowl costs 10c. The whole price structure of the internal economies
of asian nations
is based on peanut values being traded.
A bloke I knew said he bought 3 filipino women for a nights
entertainment for $10
in Manila. They all laughed and joked and looked beautiful as he ****ed,
sucked, and sodomised his
way through the night.
At Bali where I met him, he complained all the sheilas were "locked up"
at night.

I explained, Islam limits where the prick may wander.

The same service for a night of lust in Oz would be $5,000, and girls
ain't so cheerful,
and they want extra for every second thing you ask for.

A bowl of noodles in NY might cost $10.

So the dumb asians slave away trading with each other without being able
to upgrade their
lives to our standards overnight, but nevertheless it will take only a
couple of generations.
The bright smart types in china see that if they sell some utter crap to
you
sitting over in Richland in a direct marketing deal, they get a winfall.
Receiving $500 for an amp that cost them
$50 to build is like me winning the lottery. If the amp blows up within
a fortnight,
or just sounds really bad, you ain't gonna have the airforce bomb them.
You can't do anything about it.


But nothing I can make is attractive to them, unless its a fancy
military weapon,
or a medical machine for the rich, or a design for an instant city for a
million ppl
which will make the chinese tycoons arrangeing it all stoinkingly rich.
Oz also sells iron ore and coal to china, hungry to expand, and there
isn't any handcrafting
in a ship full of coal.


Patrick Turner.



  #30   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,964
Default valve amp power output PProfessor Turner



Mark wrote:

Well there ya go. That's Prof. Turners, "****, suck and sodomise"
explaination for why the Asians can't make anything 'Hi-Fi'.

Group sex is cheap in Manila. Stands up to reason, really.


Once upon a time Japan imported the most appalling lot of junk
into Australia and the prices undercut whatever we were making for
ourselves.
But I can safely say that much of what Australians made made for other
Australians
to buy was often a complete bunch of crap hardly any better than the Jap
crap.

But as time proceeded, Japan began to make gear that seemed to be far
superior
to what could be made anywhere else, and prices remained low, because
the
Japs were paid a pittance compared to us, or anyone else who made things
for export,
and asian production run numbers were vast.
If you went to Japan in 1960, a cup of coffee was indeed cheap.

Nowdays, that same cup of coffee is far more expensive in Tokyo than in
Sydney.
Times and values have indeed changed completely.

But we are now being flooded with Chinese crap at very nice low prices,
but generally there is just one thing missing, its quality,
but I live in hope that the Chinese improve quality as did the Japanese.

Just what group sex in Manilla has anything to do with what I said
is a mystery, but its no secret many western men go to Manilla and
Bankok
to **** the arses and ****s of children.
These merchants of evil all need rounding up and sending home with a
stern note to their wives
after a perhaps a little surgery to shorten their cocks by 30mm and it
would be a great idea
for furthering positive international relations.

The asians in general are able to do real hi-fi, but
judging by the crap from asia that is presented to me to repair and
rewire,
something gets in the way of many of them being able to actually
do things I'd respect, and somehow they get muddled up in the whole
process.

I hope they improve, and I hope western people stop exploiting them.
Hopes unfortunately rarely cause change, and greed in international
and global manufacturing dominate the whole realm so I ain't holding my
breath.

Chinese Hi-Fi enthusiasts who are really in the know wouldn't ever buy a
chinese tube amplifier...

And as far as I know, few Chinese tourists come to Oz to have sex
cheaply.

That could change too....

Patrick Turner.




"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


west wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

snip the comments that don't need repeating...

Its very common for idiot modern designers to try to
use 600V B+ rails for power amps and anode loads
which are far too low for the tubes to handle.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather
than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation
because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way
too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills.

Patrick Turner.

Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea
but
want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather
than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

west

Just follow the designs at my website and you won't get too much smoke.

The expansion on the statement I made above about many modern amps is
18MB in size at my site.

Tubes have remained the same for 40 years.

A KT88 made now has the same specs as it did 40 years ago.
But some may say although the specs are the same, a KT88 made in 1967
was a better longer lasting KT88 than anything made now.

Therefore its better to operate KT88 made now at lower Ea
and Ia to extend the life and gain reliablity.

But no, ****ing modernists try to force modern made tubes into ever
more
difficult
operating regions to gain a market edge.

The people in charge of design are market ****wits.

There are no market ****wits, bean counters, cost reducers, or
shareholders
in the TA empire which mainly consists of one man.

Apart from the KT90, very few output tube inovations have occured
to allow the serious serious design mistakes now made so frequently to
be tolerated.

Patrick Turner.

Professor: I wished in a way we lived closer so I can show you not only
some of the Asian junk I've accumulated, but a few Asian items that leave
me
scratching my head about how inexpensive they can produce some of the
items.
BTW: I'm glad that you wasn't one of my professors. I think you would of
been tougher than Harvard's Professor Kinsley from "The Paper Chase."


I try to be fair to anyone who will listen to me.

If I seem hard, its because BS is knee deep all around me.

Anyway, I get fed up with having to fix the mistakes of the crap
launched onto the
gullible Mr Joe Public who fools himself into thinking asian crap will
be fine to own for the next
20 years. It won't be.

No need to scratch the head and wonder why the asians do it so cheap.

Firstly, most asians are dirt poor, and wanna be like us, so they'll do
anything
to escape povety and get rich.

Secondly, wages in China are $2 a day, not $50 per hour.

Thirdly, asians supply other asians with raw materials such as R, C and
wire, and laminations and metal
for chassis at far lower prices than Radio Shack prices.

When you buy bowl of noodles in Shanghi, and if you pay what the locals
pay,
that bowl costs 10c. The whole price structure of the internal economies
of asian nations
is based on peanut values being traded.
A bloke I knew said he bought 3 filipino women for a nights
entertainment for $10
in Manila. They all laughed and joked and looked beautiful as he ****ed,
sucked, and sodomised his
way through the night.
At Bali where I met him, he complained all the sheilas were "locked up"
at night.

I explained, Islam limits where the prick may wander.

The same service for a night of lust in Oz would be $5,000, and girls
ain't so cheerful,
and they want extra for every second thing you ask for.

A bowl of noodles in NY might cost $10.

So the dumb asians slave away trading with each other without being able
to upgrade their
lives to our standards overnight, but nevertheless it will take only a
couple of generations.
The bright smart types in china see that if they sell some utter crap to
you
sitting over in Richland in a direct marketing deal, they get a winfall.
Receiving $500 for an amp that cost them
$50 to build is like me winning the lottery. If the amp blows up within
a fortnight,
or just sounds really bad, you ain't gonna have the airforce bomb them.
You can't do anything about it.


But nothing I can make is attractive to them, unless its a fancy
military weapon,
or a medical machine for the rich, or a design for an instant city for a
million ppl
which will make the chinese tycoons arrangeing it all stoinkingly rich.
Oz also sells iron ore and coal to china, hungry to expand, and there
isn't any handcrafting
in a ship full of coal.


Patrick Turner.



  #31   Report Post  
Posted to aus.hi-fi,rec.audio.tubes
Mark[_4_] Mark[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default valve amp power output PProfessor Turner

Well there ya go. That's Prof. Turners, "****, suck and sodomise"
explaination for why the Asians can't make anything 'Hi-Fi'.

Group sex is cheap in Manila. Stands up to reason, really.



"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


west wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

snip the comments that don't need repeating...

Its very common for idiot modern designers to try to
use 600V B+ rails for power amps and anode loads
which are far too low for the tubes to handle.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather
than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

Many modern makers are giving tube amps a very bad reputation
because
they
do not make their amps reliable, they expect far too much from way
too
few tubes, and have no active circuit
protection included, and it all leads to angry consumers
sitting in silent loungerooms full of smoke,
and facing huge repair bills.

Patrick Turner.

Professor, please expand on this statement of yours. I have an idea
but

want
to hear it from you, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Its always much better to have a quad of EL34 at Ea = 400V rather
than
have a pair
of KT88/6550/KT90 to do the same watts at Ea = 600V.

west

Just follow the designs at my website and you won't get too much smoke.

The expansion on the statement I made above about many modern amps is
18MB in size at my site.

Tubes have remained the same for 40 years.

A KT88 made now has the same specs as it did 40 years ago.
But some may say although the specs are the same, a KT88 made in 1967
was a better longer lasting KT88 than anything made now.

Therefore its better to operate KT88 made now at lower Ea
and Ia to extend the life and gain reliablity.

But no, ****ing modernists try to force modern made tubes into ever
more
difficult
operating regions to gain a market edge.

The people in charge of design are market ****wits.

There are no market ****wits, bean counters, cost reducers, or
shareholders
in the TA empire which mainly consists of one man.

Apart from the KT90, very few output tube inovations have occured
to allow the serious serious design mistakes now made so frequently to
be tolerated.

Patrick Turner.


Professor: I wished in a way we lived closer so I can show you not only
some of the Asian junk I've accumulated, but a few Asian items that leave
me
scratching my head about how inexpensive they can produce some of the
items.
BTW: I'm glad that you wasn't one of my professors. I think you would of
been tougher than Harvard's Professor Kinsley from "The Paper Chase."


I try to be fair to anyone who will listen to me.

If I seem hard, its because BS is knee deep all around me.

Anyway, I get fed up with having to fix the mistakes of the crap
launched onto the
gullible Mr Joe Public who fools himself into thinking asian crap will
be fine to own for the next
20 years. It won't be.

No need to scratch the head and wonder why the asians do it so cheap.

Firstly, most asians are dirt poor, and wanna be like us, so they'll do
anything
to escape povety and get rich.

Secondly, wages in China are $2 a day, not $50 per hour.

Thirdly, asians supply other asians with raw materials such as R, C and
wire, and laminations and metal
for chassis at far lower prices than Radio Shack prices.

When you buy bowl of noodles in Shanghi, and if you pay what the locals
pay,
that bowl costs 10c. The whole price structure of the internal economies
of asian nations
is based on peanut values being traded.
A bloke I knew said he bought 3 filipino women for a nights
entertainment for $10
in Manila. They all laughed and joked and looked beautiful as he ****ed,
sucked, and sodomised his
way through the night.
At Bali where I met him, he complained all the sheilas were "locked up"
at night.

I explained, Islam limits where the prick may wander.

The same service for a night of lust in Oz would be $5,000, and girls
ain't so cheerful,
and they want extra for every second thing you ask for.

A bowl of noodles in NY might cost $10.

So the dumb asians slave away trading with each other without being able
to upgrade their
lives to our standards overnight, but nevertheless it will take only a
couple of generations.
The bright smart types in china see that if they sell some utter crap to
you
sitting over in Richland in a direct marketing deal, they get a winfall.
Receiving $500 for an amp that cost them
$50 to build is like me winning the lottery. If the amp blows up within
a fortnight,
or just sounds really bad, you ain't gonna have the airforce bomb them.
You can't do anything about it.


But nothing I can make is attractive to them, unless its a fancy
military weapon,
or a medical machine for the rich, or a design for an instant city for a
million ppl
which will make the chinese tycoons arrangeing it all stoinkingly rich.
Oz also sells iron ore and coal to china, hungry to expand, and there
isn't any handcrafting
in a ship full of coal.


Patrick Turner.




Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What determines the output power? Kevin Davis Vacuum Tubes 7 February 22nd 06 01:49 PM
Impedence VS Power Output Question Tony F Car Audio 12 April 18th 05 01:49 AM
Power output meter amp schematic. Patrick Turner Vacuum Tubes 97 December 31st 04 06:57 AM
Power Output Meter John Walton Vacuum Tubes 11 December 26th 04 01:51 AM
TVA 1X Valve Power Amp Packtech Vacuum Tubes 0 August 31st 03 11:14 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:12 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AudioBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Audio and hi-fi"