[[email protected]]

I've been messing around with a tascam portastudio mk 2 I got earlier this year and I'm trying to make a series of tapes using only analog methods. The mk 2 records at a faster rate than most tape decks and on both sides of the cassette (tracks one and two on side a, three and four on side b), so using an aux line into my old boombox isn't possible.
Is there any quick cheap way I can get my tascam tape onto a tape that's playable in a regular stereo?
I'd like to keep it all analog.
I know there's gotta be a predigital method to do this, I just can't find any instructions online for what I'm looking to do.
Any ideas?

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
I've been messing around with a tascam portastudio mk 2 I got earlier this =
year and I'm trying to make a series of tapes using only analog methods. Th=
e mk 2 records at a faster rate than most tape decks and on both sides of t=
he cassette (tracks one and two on side a, three and four on side b), so us=
ing an aux line into my old boombox isn't possible.=20

Right. It's an incompatible format, even though it's on a cassette.

Is there any quick cheap way I can get my tascam tape onto a tape that's pl=
ayable in a regular stereo?

Get a cassette deck, mix your 4-track recording down to a 2-track mix,
record that on cassette.

I'd like to keep it all analog.=20

You should know that the cassette is a pretty godawful format, if you have
not figured this out yet. Please do not judge all analogue formats by the
standard of the compact cassette. Especially today, when you can buy a very
good 1/2" 4-track machine for next to nothing.

I know there's gotta be a predigital method to do this, I just can't find a=
ny instructions online for what I'm looking to do.
Any ideas?

Get Alec Nisbett's book _The Technique of the Sound Studio_. It will detail
the whole process of multitrack production and mixing to 2-track. It will
talk about professional equipment that is a lot more flexible than the
consumer machines, but the basic practice is the same.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 7:40:04 PM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:

I've been messing around with a tascam portastudio mk 2 I got earlier this =

year and I'm trying to make a series of tapes using only analog methods. Th=

e mk 2 records at a faster rate than most tape decks and on both sides of t=

he cassette (tracks one and two on side a, three and four on side b), so us=

ing an aux line into my old boombox isn't possible.=20



Right. It's an incompatible format, even though it's on a cassette.



Is there any quick cheap way I can get my tascam tape onto a tape that's pl=

ayable in a regular stereo?



Get a cassette deck, mix your 4-track recording down to a 2-track mix,

record that on cassette.



I'd like to keep it all analog.=20



You should know that the cassette is a pretty godawful format, if you have

not figured this out yet. Please do not judge all analogue formats by the

standard of the compact cassette. Especially today, when you can buy a very

good 1/2" 4-track machine for next to nothing.



I know there's gotta be a predigital method to do this, I just can't find a=

ny instructions online for what I'm looking to do.

Any ideas?



Get Alec Nisbett's book _The Technique of the Sound Studio_. It will detail

the whole process of multitrack production and mixing to 2-track. It will

talk about professional equipment that is a lot more flexible than the

consumer machines, but the basic practice is the same.

--scott



--

"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Thanks for the advice, scott. after some more digging i found some helpful pages (though a little dated, pre-2000s) and realized my questions are very basic and probably not worth this forum's time.
i'm a complete newbie to analog recording, but after messing around with my first tape i'm completely in love with the process. i know it's not the best, nor even should be considered any good. i just like the way it sounds and the whole idea of making a tape without definite tracks using only basic home recording equipment.
i now realize what i need is a tape deck that has a multiple speed function, so i can record at my tascam's speed (x2) and record that onto another tape at normal speed.
any suggestions for something that can do this? this exists right? i'm not looking for the best or even very good, just something that'll do the job.
i've seen a lot of old tape decks in thrift stores, but i haven't thought to look for a multi-speed function...

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:

Thanks for the advice, scott. after some more digging i found some helpful =
pages (though a little dated, pre-2000s) and realized my questions are very=
basic and probably not worth this forum's time.=20

They are basic and you might want to look at the FAQ for this group, which
is kind of dated but might be a good introduction to traditional production
methods.

i'm a complete newbie to analog recording, but after messing around with my=
first tape i'm completely in love with the process. i know it's not the be=
st, nor even should be considered any good. i just like the way it sounds a=
nd the whole idea of making a tape without definite tracks using only basic=
home recording equipment.=20

What do you mean "without definite tracks?"

i now realize what i need is a tape deck that has a multiple speed function=
, so i can record at my tascam's speed (x2) and record that onto another ta=
pe at normal speed.=20

No, that isn't what you need. You have a 4-track tape. You take the
four discrete signals, you mix them down to 2-track audio, you record
the 2-track audio on a 2-track recorder.

Any cassette recorder will do.

any suggestions for something that can do this? this exists right? i'm not =
looking for the best or even very good, just something that'll do the job.
i've seen a lot of old tape decks in thrift stores, but i haven't thought t=
o look for a multi-speed function...

There is no need for any multi-speed. Any junk cassette deck will do
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[None]

wrote in message
...
i now realize what i need is a tape deck that has a multiple speed
function, so i can record at my tascam's speed (x2) and record that
onto another tape at normal speed.

No. You need to mix down to an ordinary cassette recorder that uses
the conventional format. A regular cassette deck. You should be able
to find one for next to nothing. One that works may be more difficult
to find. One that works well, even harder. Your Tascam won't do it,
and in reality, the unusual Tascam format and the more popular
consumer format have little in common other than the size and
geometry. Don't confuse the two. Your multitrack recording is on the
Tascam. Mix that onto a regular cassette deck.

[hank alrich]

wrote:

Thanks for the advice, scott. after some more digging i found some helpful
pages (though a little dated, pre-2000s) and realized my questions are
very basic and probably not worth this forum's time.


Not so. Don't sweat it. Ask away, Sean.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 6/10/2014 7:55 PM, wrote:
i now realize what i need is a tape deck that has a multiple speed function, so i can record at my tascam's speed (x2) and record that onto another tape at normal speed.
any suggestions for something that can do this? this exists right?

That's not what you need. The double speed is something that TASCAM used
in order to get better fidelity from a low fidelity medium. It's
non-standard, as well as the recording format of all four tracks running
in the same direction, and they needed to get a special license from
Phillips (who owns the Compact Cassette format) in order to use standard
cassettes in these Portastudios. Akai made a similar line of products
only they used a special custom cassette in order to get around the
license, as well as use wider tape loaded in a Beta VCR type shell.

The process is recording (up to) four tracks and mixing them to stereo
in your Portastudio so you get left and right out the headphone and line
output jacks. That mix is what you need to record on a "mixdown"
recorder which, in the day of the cassette-based Portastudio, was
usually a standard stereo cassette deck.

If you want to remain completely analog, you can use any analog recorder
- a cassette (if you want to be able to play your projects on a standard
cassette deck or boom box) or it could be a reel-to-reel deck, or you
could bite the bullet, connect the line outputs to your computer's line
inputs, and record your mix on your computer.

But to get back to your original question, any cassette deck will only
play two of the four tracks at a time, and at half speed.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Tobiah]

The mk 2 records at a faster rate than most tape decks and
on both sides of the cassette (tracks one and two on side a, three
and four on side b), so using an aux line into my old boombox isn't
possible.

This and another of your later comments leads me to believe
that there is some confusion as to the implications of the
faster tape speed on the Tascam. Whatever the Tascam does
with its tape, you can mix it down to stereo as a simple
audio signal which of course is compatible with your
boombox's aux in. You can record what comes out of the
Tascam with any recorder you choose, regardless of the format
it may use.

[Nil[_2_]]

On 11 Jun 2014, Mike Rivers wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

But to get back to your original question, any cassette deck will
only play two of the four tracks at a time, and at half speed.

I'm curious...

How would audio quality be affected if you were to play back the 4-
track cassette on a conventional stereo cassette deck and capture just
the two tracks to the computer, and then digitally doubling the speed?
I'm disregarding the fact that you would be missing the remaining two
tracks.

[Nil[_2_]]

On 10 Jun 2014, wrote in rec.audio.pro:

I've been messing around with a tascam portastudio mk 2 I got
earlier this year and I'm trying to make a series of tapes using
only analog methods. The mk 2 records at a faster rate than most
tape decks and on both sides of the cassette (tracks one and two
on side a, three and four on side b), so using an aux line into my
old boombox isn't possible. Is there any quick cheap way I can get
my tascam tape onto a tape that's playable in a regular stereo?

I'd like to keep it all analog.

I know there's gotta be a predigital method to do this, I just
can't find any instructions online for what I'm looking to do. Any
ideas?

Have you read the manual?

http://tascam.com/product/414mkii/downloads/

Look for the section in the User Manual titled "How to Mix Down".

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 6/11/2014 4:28 PM, Nil wrote:
How would audio quality be affected if you were to play back the 4-
track cassette on a conventional stereo cassette deck and capture just
the two tracks to the computer, and then digitally doubling the speed?

People have done that. I haven't so I can't assign a number from one to
ten about the quality. In fact at least one program oriented toward
digitizing phonograph records recommends that procedure for 78 RPM
records if you don't have a turntable that plays at that speed. It's
better than nothing. Why haven't you tried it already? You realize that
you have to change the actual speed, which changes both the pitch and
tempo. Look for that option. It may not be the default.

I'm disregarding the fact that you would be missing the remaining two
tracks.

You don't have to lose them. Just record them in a second pass. You'll
need to align them so they start at the same point and trust that the
speed of the tape is sufficiently constant so that they don't get out of
sync after a while. A good way to do this is to patch all of the inputs
together and record a click simultaneously on all four tracks, then just
line that up visually. It's probably best to do it at the beginning of
each song if you have the space. It's just a quick punch-in.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Scott Dorsey]

Nil wrote:
On 11 Jun 2014, Mike Rivers wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

But to get back to your original question, any cassette deck will
only play two of the four tracks at a time, and at half speed.

I'm curious...

How would audio quality be affected if you were to play back the 4-
track cassette on a conventional stereo cassette deck and capture just
the two tracks to the computer, and then digitally doubling the speed?
I'm disregarding the fact that you would be missing the remaining two
tracks.

There are two problems he

First of all, if you do this, when you double the speed you're also doubling
the low frequency corner of the playback deck. So, if the playback deck was
flat down to 50 Hz, after you double the speed it's now flat only down to
100 Hz.

The first part of the second problem is that the pre-emphasis equalization
constants also get doubled. The second part, though, is that Tascam used
nonstandard pre-emphasis on their nonstandard speed machines. You could
work out the resulting altered frequency response and equalize it back,
but it could get ugly.

Normal professional tape machines often have the equalization networks
on plug-in modules so that you can easily make modules with double or
half speed equalization constants. This was very common back in the brief
era of half-speed mastering for LPs.
--scott



--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Nil[_2_]]

On 11 Jun 2014, Mike Rivers wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

On 6/11/2014 4:28 PM, Nil wrote:
How would audio quality be affected if you were to play back the
4- track cassette on a conventional stereo cassette deck and
capture just the two tracks to the computer, and then digitally
doubling the speed?

People have done that. I haven't so I can't assign a number from
one to ten about the quality. In fact at least one program
oriented toward digitizing phonograph records recommends that
procedure for 78 RPM records if you don't have a turntable that
plays at that speed. It's better than nothing. Why haven't you
tried it already? You realize that you have to change the actual
speed, which changes both the pitch and tempo. Look for that
option. It may not be the default.

I have a whole bunch of cassettes of my one-man-band projects that I
made on a Tascam 4-track cassette machine a few decades ago. At the
time, I mixed them down to stereo on both a VHS Hi-Fi machine and a
rented DAT tape. I've since lost the DATs, but I still have the VHS.
The VHS actually sounds pretty good, and it added a bit of compression
that's not unflattering to the material. Several years later I
transferred them to the computer and they're around here somewhere... I
hope.

I still have the Tascam in a box in the attic. I'm not sure if it still
worked when I put it away many years ago or if it would still work now.
I sometimes think (though not very seriously) about transferring the
unmixed 4-tracks to the computer and re-mixing them. If by chance the
Tascam doesn't work any more, I was wondering about the alternative
method I mentioned above.

When reality strikes I realize it's probably not worth the effort since
I already have stereo mixes that are good enough. The stuff is no great
art or anything. It's really mostly just idle wondering.

I'm disregarding the fact that you would be missing the remaining
two tracks.

You don't have to lose them. Just record them in a second pass.
You'll need to align them so they start at the same point and
trust that the speed of the tape is sufficiently constant so that
they don't get out of sync after a while. A good way to do this is
to patch all of the inputs together and record a click
simultaneously on all four tracks, then just line that up
visually. It's probably best to do it at the beginning of each
song if you have the space. It's just a quick punch-in.

That's actually a pretty good idea about the click track. I hadn't
thought about that.

[John Williamson]

On 11/06/2014 23:27, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/11/2014 4:28 PM, Nil wrote:
How would audio quality be affected if you were to play back the 4-
track cassette on a conventional stereo cassette deck and capture just
the two tracks to the computer, and then digitally doubling the speed?

People have done that. I haven't so I can't assign a number from one to
ten about the quality. In fact at least one program oriented toward
digitizing phonograph records recommends that procedure for 78 RPM
records if you don't have a turntable that plays at that speed. It's
better than nothing. Why haven't you tried it already? You realize that
you have to change the actual speed, which changes both the pitch and
tempo. Look for that option. It may not be the default.

You would also need to correct the equalisation, as the standard
cassette curve won't match the Tascam curve at half recorded speed. Not
a major problem, but an extra step.

I'm disregarding the fact that you would be missing the remaining two
tracks.

You don't have to lose them. Just record them in a second pass. You'll
need to align them so they start at the same point and trust that the
speed of the tape is sufficiently constant so that they don't get out of
sync after a while. A good way to do this is to patch all of the inputs
together and record a click simultaneously on all four tracks, then just
line that up visually. It's probably best to do it at the beginning of
each song if you have the space. It's just a quick punch-in.

The Tascam third and fourth tracks can't be played in the right
direction on a normal cassette deck. You need one with a four track head.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 6/12/2014 6:06 AM, John Williamson wrote:
The Tascam third and fourth tracks can't be played in the right
direction on a normal cassette deck. You need one with a four track head.

Right. I forgot about that. But most DAWs have a button you can click to
reverse a track end to end. I don't know if TASCAM used a different EQ
curve on the double speed decks, but there's plenty of room to play
around and make it sound as good as it can.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[blacksuede58]

On Thursday, June 12, 2014 6:06:47 AM UTC-4, John Williamson wrote:
On 11/06/2014 23:27, Mike Rivers wrote:

On 6/11/2014 4:28 PM, Nil wrote:

How would audio quality be affected if you were to play back the 4-

track cassette on a conventional stereo cassette deck and capture just

the two tracks to the computer, and then digitally doubling the speed?

......

I'm disregarding the fact that you would be missing the remaining two

tracks.



You don't have to lose them. Just record them in a second pass. You'll

need to align them so they start at the same point and trust that the

speed of the tape is sufficiently constant so that they don't get out of

sync after a while. A good way to do this is to patch all of the inputs

together and record a click simultaneously on all four tracks, then just

line that up visually. It's probably best to do it at the beginning of

each song if you have the space. It's just a quick punch-in.



The Tascam third and fourth tracks can't be played in the right

direction on a normal cassette deck. You need one with a four track head.



--

Tciao for Now!



John.

There's also the irregularity of wow & flutter to consider. All four tracks will have identical w/f irregularities from the recording pass-- but have fun trying to sync up the waveforms of two separate analog playbacks in your DAW. It can be... well, challenging.

I had a 4-track recording of a gig my band did, a few years back. Somebody else in the band had a digital vid of it as well, and I attempted to sync the two up, just for the duration of one 4-minute song. But even in that short amount of time, there was a time-lag of almost a full second by the end of the track. Working in Audition, I could tempo-adjust my audio mixdown to fit the video (luckily had a good view of the snare hits, and I had cam audio for reference as well).

But that wasn't being mixed with any other audio (the cam audio was muted out of the final render). A 2+2 re-sync of a 4-track cassette, however, poses a challenge-- especially if there's any bleed-thru between tracks. The two stereo waveforms have to be spot on time, to avoid potential out-of-phase issues.

Not saying it's impossible, or an unworthy project... Hell, just before I got into DAWs, I had a song where all the tracks were split between two four-track cassettes-- the original four tracks (on tape 1), the mixdown of those and two more tracks (tape 2), and the mixdown of that and two more tracks (tape 1 again). I dumped them all-- 4+2+2-- onto my Tascam 38 8-track. For the second & third passes, I monitored the cassette mixes against the 8-track and flanged the reel with my thumb for speed sync.

Yes, I got into DAWs very soon after that.

Mark.