[Emiliano Grilli]

Hi,

I recently bought a Beyer m610 with a DIN connector, the seller didn't
provide the cable and I haven't got time yet to go to the electronic
store to buy a connector to build a cable. Today arrived a MD421n
_with_ cable which I tried to use with the Beyer too. I feel
disappointed to notice that nothing is coming out of the Beyer, while
the md421n was perfect sounding. So the cable is good. I 'd asked the
seller and he assures that the mic was working, so I'm inclined to
think they're cabled differently. Anyone can help me understand how
should I build the DIN to XLR cable for the Beyer when I'll have the
connector?
I'm able to solder but my knowledge in electronics is quite limited.
The pin on the mic are numbered.

Thanks for any pointer
--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[Mike Rivers]

On Mar 6, 6:19 pm, "Emiliano Grilli"
wrote:

I recently bought a Beyer m610 with a DIN connector, the seller didn't
provide the cable and I haven't got time yet to go to the electronic
store to buy a connector to build a cable.

I don't know what an M610 is (it's not in any of my catalogs, going
back to about 1975) but the usual Beyer DIN pinoiut is signal is on
pins 1 and 3, with 2 being the shield.

But there are variations including more pins.

[Scott Dorsey]

Emiliano Grilli wrote:

I recently bought a Beyer m610 with a DIN connector, the seller didn't
provide the cable and I haven't got time yet to go to the electronic
store to buy a connector to build a cable. Today arrived a MD421n
_with_ cable which I tried to use with the Beyer too. I feel
disappointed to notice that nothing is coming out of the Beyer, while
the md421n was perfect sounding. So the cable is good. I 'd asked the
seller and he assures that the mic was working, so I'm inclined to
think they're cabled differently. Anyone can help me understand how
should I build the DIN to XLR cable for the Beyer when I'll have the
connector?

First of all, those are Tuchel connectors, because they have a locking
ring on them.

There are at least three different pinouts of the 5-pin Tuchel for
microphones.... an unbalanced one, a balanced one, and a stereo mike
one.

You'll know which one you have and how it's wired when you get out the
ohmmeter. If you have one pin that has continuity to the case, and
another wire with a couple ohms to the case, you have an unbalanced
mike. If you have one pin with continuity to the case and two pins
with continuity to one another but NOT the case, you have a balanced
mike. If you have TWO pairs of pins that are connected together you
have a stereo mike.

I'm able to solder but my knowledge in electronics is quite limited.
The pin on the mic are numbered.

The ohmmeter will tell you everything.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Emiliano Grilli]

On 7 Mar, 01:54, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Emiliano Grilli wrote:

I recently bought a Beyer m610 with a DIN connector, the seller didn't
provide the cable and I haven't got time yet to go to the electronic
store to buy a connector to build a cable. Today arrived a MD421n
_with_ cable which I tried to use with the Beyer too. I feel
disappointed to notice that nothing is coming out of the Beyer, while
the md421n was perfect sounding. So the cable is good. I 'd asked the
seller and he assures that the mic was working, so I'm inclined to
think they're cabled differently. Anyone can help me understand how
should I build the DIN to XLR cable for the Beyer when I'll have the
connector?

First of all, those are Tuchel connectors, because they have a locking
ring on them.

Ok

There are at least three different pinouts of the 5-pin Tuchel for
microphones.... an unbalanced one, a balanced one, and a stereo mike
one.

Mine has 3 pins (sorry, I should have pointed that out)

You'll know which one you have and how it's wired when you get out the
ohmmeter. If you have one pin that has continuity to the case, and
another wire with a couple ohms to the case, you have an unbalanced
mike. If you have one pin with continuity to the case and two pins
with continuity to one another but NOT the case, you have a balanced
mike. If you have TWO pairs of pins that are connected together you
have a stereo mike.

Pin 2 has continuity to the case. My tester minimal resolution is 2k,
so I see always "1" trying to connect the other two pins between them
or to the case... According to Mike's advice (thank you, Mike) pin 2
is the shield and pins 1 and 3 are the signal. They seem not to have
continuity between them, so this is an unbalanced mike if I understand
correctly.

I'm able to solder but my knowledge in electronics is quite limited.
The pin on the mic are numbered.

The ohmmeter will tell you everything.
--scott

Thanks for helping to clarifying all that. :-)

--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[Mike Rivers]

On Mar 7, 3:58 am, "Emiliano Grilli"
wrote:

Mine has 3 pins (sorry, I should have pointed that out)

Pin 2 has continuity to the case. My tester minimal resolution is 2k,
so I see always "1" trying to connect the other two pins between them
or to the case... According to Mike's advice (thank you, Mike) pin 2
is the shield and pins 1 and 3 are the signal. They seem not to have
continuity between them, so this is an unbalanced mike if I understand
correctly.

That's possible. I said there were variations. Can you describe the
mic, at least in general, or post a photo of it somewhere? Does it
look like a cheap mic, or a fine one? Beyer has made both. It may be
unbalanced. They were made with pin 2 ground and either pin 1 or pin 3
hot. And one variation was dual impedance, with low impedance between
2-3 and high impedance between 2-1.

An ohm meter will tell most.

[Ty Ford]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 03:58:41 -0500, Emiliano Grilli wrote
(in article om):

On 7 Mar, 01:54, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Emiliano Grilli wrote:

I recently bought a Beyer m610 with a DIN connector, the seller didn't
provide the cable and I haven't got time yet to go to the electronic
store to buy a connector to build a cable. Today arrived a MD421n
_with_ cable which I tried to use with the Beyer too. I feel
disappointed to notice that nothing is coming out of the Beyer, while
the md421n was perfect sounding. So the cable is good. I 'd asked the
seller and he assures that the mic was working, so I'm inclined to
think they're cabled differently. Anyone can help me understand how
should I build the DIN to XLR cable for the Beyer when I'll have the
connector?

Emilio,

Do you mean a beyer m160?

Ty Ford





--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Emiliano Grilli]

On 7 Mar, 13:58, Ty Ford wrote:
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 03:58:41 -0500, Emiliano Grilli wrote
(in article om):

On 7 Mar, 01:54, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Emiliano Grilli wrote:

I recently bought a Beyer m610 with a DIN connector, the seller didn't
provide the cable and I haven't got time yet to go to the electronic
store to buy a connector to build a cable. Today arrived a MD421n
_with_ cable which I tried to use with the Beyer too. I feel
disappointed to notice that nothing is coming out of the Beyer, while
the md421n was perfect sounding. So the cable is good. I 'd asked the
seller and he assures that the mic was working, so I'm inclined to
think they're cabled differently. Anyone can help me understand how
should I build the DIN to XLR cable for the Beyer when I'll have the
connector?

Emilio,

Do you mean a beyer m160?

No, it's a dinamic and its name is m610:
http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...8520&rd=1&rd=1

even if the auction says it's a ribbon, it's not. It's a dynamic.
There are almost no references to it on the net.

Ty Ford

Cheers,
--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[Emiliano Grilli]

On 7 Mar, 13:17, "Mike Rivers" wrote:
On Mar 7, 3:58 am, "Emiliano Grilli"
wrote:

Mine has 3 pins (sorry, I should have pointed that out)
Pin 2 has continuity to the case. My tester minimal resolution is 2k,
so I see always "1" trying to connect the other two pins between them
or to the case... According to Mike's advice (thank you, Mike) pin 2
is the shield and pins 1 and 3 are the signal. They seem not to have
continuity between them, so this is an unbalanced mike if I understand
correctly.

That's possible. I said there were variations. Can you describe the
mic, at least in general, or post a photo of it somewhere?

Su

http://emillo.net/download/m610/index.html

Does it
look like a cheap mic, or a fine one? Beyer has made both. It may be
unbalanced. They were made with pin 2 ground and either pin 1 or pin 3
hot. And one variation was dual impedance, with low impedance between
2-3 and high impedance between 2-1.

It looks like a fine mic, it has a serial number and the condition is
excellent... near the connector it says 200 ohm (see photos)

Needless to say that I'm eager to hear it :-)
The problem is that I left work at 18:00 and the electronic store
closes at 18:30 and it's not near my house. I don't even know if they
have that connector... By phone they haven't been able to tell.
However I ordered an adapter in ebay... let's see if it works

An ohm meter will tell most.

I have a tester but its minimal resolution in terms of ohms is 2k, and
I fear it's way to much

Thanks
--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[Scott Dorsey]

Emiliano Grilli wrote:

Pin 2 has continuity to the case. My tester minimal resolution is 2k,
so I see always "1" trying to connect the other two pins between them
or to the case... According to Mike's advice (thank you, Mike) pin 2
is the shield and pins 1 and 3 are the signal. They seem not to have
continuity between them, so this is an unbalanced mike if I understand
correctly.

What you have is a broken mike.

Pin 2 is the ground. But where is the signal? If there is infinite
resistance between pins 1 and 3, and infinite resistance between each
of those and pin 2, you have no voice coil. It's gone open.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Emiliano Grilli]

On 7 Mar, 15:03, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Emiliano Grilli wrote:

Pin 2 has continuity to the case. My tester minimal resolution is 2k,
so I see always "1" trying to connect the other two pins between them
or to the case... According to Mike's advice (thank you, Mike) pin 2
is the shield and pins 1 and 3 are the signal. They seem not to have
continuity between them, so this is an unbalanced mike if I understand
correctly.

What you have is a broken mike.

Oh my god!!
I'm feeling really stupid I forgot to turn the switch when doing
resistance tests... Indeed now there is a
175 ohm resistance between pin 1 and 3.

Sorry, sorry, sorry :-)

Pin 2 is the ground. But where is the signal? If there is infinite
resistance between pins 1 and 3, and infinite resistance between each
of those and pin 2, you have no voice coil. It's gone open.
--scott

thanks
--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[Federico]

even if the auction says it's a ribbon, it's not. It's a dynamic.
There are almost no references to it on the net.

A ribbon IS a dynamic.....
F.

[Scott Dorsey]

Emiliano Grilli wrote:
On 7 Mar, 15:03, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Emiliano Grilli wrote:

Pin 2 has continuity to the case. My tester minimal resolution is 2k,
so I see always "1" trying to connect the other two pins between them
or to the case... According to Mike's advice (thank you, Mike) pin 2
is the shield and pins 1 and 3 are the signal. They seem not to have
continuity between them, so this is an unbalanced mike if I understand
correctly.

What you have is a broken mike.

Oh my god!!
I'm feeling really stupid I forgot to turn the switch when doing
resistance tests... Indeed now there is a
175 ohm resistance between pin 1 and 3.

Okay, now you know it! You have a balanced mike, with pins 1 and 3 for
signal, and pin 2 for ground. Pin 2 goes to pin 1 on the XLR, the other
two pins go to pins 2 and 3 on the XLR. This is a common pinout, but
to be honest I thought it was the one the balanced 421 used also.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Emiliano Grilli]

On 7 Mar, 15:20, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Emiliano Grilli wrote:
On 7 Mar, 15:03, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Emiliano Grilli wrote:

Pin 2 has continuity to the case. My tester minimal resolution is 2k,
so I see always "1" trying to connect the other two pins between them
or to the case... According to Mike's advice (thank you, Mike) pin 2
is the shield and pins 1 and 3 are the signal. They seem not to have
continuity between them, so this is an unbalanced mike if I understand
correctly.

What you have is a broken mike.

Oh my god!!
I'm feeling really stupid I forgot to turn the switch when doing
resistance tests... Indeed now there is a
175 ohm resistance between pin 1 and 3.

Okay, now you know it! You have a balanced mike, with pins 1 and 3 for
signal, and pin 2 for ground. Pin 2 goes to pin 1 on the XLR, the other
two pins go to pins 2 and 3 on the XLR. This is a common pinout, but
to be honest I thought it was the one the balanced 421 used also.

It might be that this 421hn is quite old (has the italic characters
logo, serial# 12716)
The cable has pin 2 on the tuchel wired to pin 3 on the XLR. The
microphone has 40 ohm resistance between pin 2 and 3 on the tuchel,
and no pin seems connected to the case.

Thank you again and sorry for inaccurate information (I also said
MD421N while is MD421HN)
Best Regards,
--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net


--scott

[Mike Rivers]

On Mar 7, 8:32 am, "Emiliano Grilli"
wrote:

http://emillo.net/download/m610/index.html

It certainly looks like a pretty decent mic, not one of the ones made
to be packed with tape recorders. Since it says 200 ohms, it's likely
to be fixed impedance. I'd go with the Pin 2 shield, signal on 1-3
wiring.

I have a Sennheiser 604 (I think - the square-ish one, with the name
Echolette) with a 3-pin Tuchel connector that's wired as Pin 2=shield,
1-3=signal. I never found the proper connector with the locking ring
so I made up a temporary adapter (which will probably be there
forever) to an XLR using a 3-pin DIN female connector. It fits and the
pins make contact just fine.

By the way, pin 2 on the mic is the one in the middle, perfectly
obvious on a 3-pin connector, but things get screwy when you get to
the 5-pin (such as used for MIDI and European consumer stereo audio in/
out) series.

I don't know which of pins 1 and 3 is "positive" but either way will
work for listening purposes. When you know how to wire it so that you
get sound out of it, you can check the polarity and if it doesn't
match a known-correct mic, swap the two signal pins. To check that,
you'll need either a mixer or pretty good ears.

Put the "standard" and the mic you're testing as close together as
possible, connect them to a mixer, pan them to the same place if it's
a stereo mixer, and play some music into them from a speaker. Turn up
one mic, then turn up the other one. If the sum gets louder, the
polarity is correct. If the level of the mix drops, then your mic-
under-test is wired backwards.

[Scott Dorsey]

Emiliano Grilli wrote:
Thank you again and sorry for inaccurate information (I also said
MD421N while is MD421HN)

The 421HN is a wacky thing with dual impedance windings for either high
or low-Z output. I've never actually seen one in the US. But you can
call Sennheiser and get the manual so you can make sure the one you have
is set up properly for the input you're using.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Reinhard Zwirner]

Emiliano Grilli schrieb:

....
Thank you again and sorry for inaccurate information (I also said
MD421N while is MD421HN)

Hi Emiliano

Are you really sure it's MD421H_N_? Could it be MD412H_L_?

CU

Reinhard

[Emiliano Grilli]

On 7 Mar, 19:42, Reinhard Zwirner wrote:
Emiliano Grilli schrieb:

Thank you again and sorry for inaccurate information (I also said
MD421N while is MD421HN)

Hi Emiliano

Are you really sure it's MD421H_N_? Could it be MD412H_L_?

Yes, the metal label says so. I also have an HL. The HN has a 2
position bass filter (M and S) while the HL has no filter at all , is
black (instead of beige) and has XLR connection.

CU
Reinhard


Best,

--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[martymart]

The cable has pin 2 on the tuchel wired to pin 3 on the XLR. The
microphone has 40 ohm resistance between pin 2 and 3 on the tuchel,
and no pin seems connected to the case.

Hey fellas, as a bit of a side bar, using a DC ohmeter to check out
mics can cause some problems. Applying DC voltages to a ribbon mic
can wipe out the ribbon from the transient spike. Fortunately, I have
never done this to my ribbons, but I know some who have.

Even a condenser or SM57 will likely have their transformers DC biased
after measuring with an ohmeter across the coil. This can be fixed,
but most people don't even know it happens - and the result is a
crappy sounding mic!

Marty

[Emiliano Grilli]

On 7 Mar, 20:56, "martymart" wrote:
The cable has pin 2 on the tuchel wired to pin 3 on the XLR. The
microphone has 40 ohm resistance between pin 2 and 3 on the tuchel,
and no pin seems connected to the case.

Hey fellas, as a bit of a side bar, using a DC ohmeter to check out
mics can cause some problems. Applying DC voltages to a ribbon mic
can wipe out the ribbon from the transient spike. Fortunately, I have
never done this to my ribbons, but I know some who have.

Even a condenser or SM57 will likely have their transformers DC biased
after measuring with an ohmeter across the coil. This can be fixed,
but most people don't even know it happens - and the result is a
crappy sounding mic!

gasp...
Is that true?

--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[Scott Dorsey]

Emiliano Grilli wrote:
On 7 Mar, 20:56, "martymart" wrote:
The cable has pin 2 on the tuchel wired to pin 3 on the XLR. The
microphone has 40 ohm resistance between pin 2 and 3 on the tuchel,
and no pin seems connected to the case.

Hey fellas, as a bit of a side bar, using a DC ohmeter to check out
mics can cause some problems. Applying DC voltages to a ribbon mic
can wipe out the ribbon from the transient spike. Fortunately, I have
never done this to my ribbons, but I know some who have.

Even a condenser or SM57 will likely have their transformers DC biased
after measuring with an ohmeter across the coil. This can be fixed,
but most people don't even know it happens - and the result is a
crappy sounding mic!

gasp...
Is that true?

It used to be extremely true, and it's still true with most analogue
meters. Modern DVMs put so little current into the device under test
that it's mostly not worth worrying about anymore... but DON'T use that old
Simpson 260 on a microphone or tape head.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger]

"Emiliano Grilli" wrote in
message
ups.com
On 7 Mar, 20:56, "martymart"
wrote:
The cable has pin 2 on the tuchel wired to pin 3 on the
XLR. The microphone has 40 ohm resistance between pin 2
and 3 on the tuchel, and no pin seems connected to the
case.

Hey fellas, as a bit of a side bar, using a DC ohmeter
to check out mics can cause some problems. Applying DC
voltages to a ribbon mic can wipe out the ribbon from
the transient spike. Fortunately, I have never done
this to my ribbons, but I know some who have.

Even a condenser or SM57 will likely have their
transformers DC biased after measuring with an ohmeter
across the coil. This can be fixed, but most people
don't even know it happens - and the result is a crappy
sounding mic!

gasp... Is that true?

Wrong on a number of counts.

First, most modern equipment lacks transformers. SM57s are more the
exception than the rule, for example.

Secondly, its hard to do an experiment where you apply a Simpson 260 on an
ohms range to a good audio transformer, and all of a sudden it starts
cranking out beaucups distortion and/or noise. If there is residual
magnetism, it might cut peak undistorted output. Transformer cores are
mostly made out of magnetically soft materials. That specifcally means that
they don't hold magnetism.

[martymart]

gasp...
Is that true?

It used to be extremely true, and it's still true with most analogue
meters. Modern DVMs put so little current into the device under test
that it's mostly not worth worrying about anymore... but DON'T use that old
Simpson 260 on a microphone or tape head.
--scott

Agreed! I have an older Beckman DMM with a 20 ohm setting that uses
4mA of current for the measurement. All of my other DMMs have 200 ohm
settings that use ~1mA.

There is a fine explanation of fixing a magentized transformer in
chapter 11, written by Bill Whitlock, of the Handbook for Sound
Engineers, 3rd Edition. http://www.jensen-transformers.com/a...%20Chapter.pdf

See the section near the end on de-magnetizing.
Marty

[martymart]

Wrong on a number of counts.

First, most modern equipment lacks transformers. SM57s are more the
exception than the rule, for example.

I think there are about a gazillion dynamics and chinese LDCs that use
xfmrs at their outputs. Maybe even several "good" mics.

Secondly, its hard to do an experiment where you apply a Simpson 260 on an
ohms range to a good audio transformer, and all of a sudden it starts
cranking out beaucups distortion and/or noise. If there is residual
magnetism, it might cut peak undistorted output. Transformer cores are
mostly made out of magnetically soft materials. That specifcally means that
they don't hold magnetism.


OK, Arnie. But, tell that to Bill W. and Per Lundahl. I bet it
happens ALOT!

The results are probably subtle, but not at high levels, moreso at
lower levels where xfmrs are not very distorted.
Marty

[Arny Krueger]

"martymart" wrote in message
ups.com
Wrong on a number of counts.

First, most modern equipment lacks transformers. SM57s
are more the exception than the rule, for example.

I think there are about a gazillion dynamics and chinese
LDCs that use xfmrs at their outputs. Maybe even several
"good" mics.

IME, most Chinese LDCs are transformerless. Transformers cost money.

Secondly, its hard to do an experiment where you apply a
Simpson 260 on an ohms range to a good audio
transformer, and all of a sudden it starts cranking out
beaucups distortion and/or noise. If there is residual
magnetism, it might cut peak undistorted output.
Transformer cores are mostly made out of magnetically
soft materials. That specifcally means that they don't
hold magnetism.

OK, Arnie. But, tell that to Bill W. and Per Lundahl. I
bet it happens ALOT!

Somebody referenced BillW's web site, specfically the following:

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/a...%20Chapter.pdf

"Microphone input transformers used with phantom power are exposed to this
possibility whenever a microphone is connected or disconnected from a
powered input. However, distortion tests before and after exposure to the
worst-case 7 mA current pulses have shown that the effects are indeed
subtle. Third harmonic distortion, which normally dominates transformer
distortions, is unaffected. Second harmonic, which normally is near the
measurement threshold, is typically increased by about 20 dB but is still
some 15 dB lower than the third harmonic. Is it audible? Some say yes. But
even this distortion disappears into the noise floor above a few hundred Hz.
In any case, it can be prevented by connecting and disconnecting microphones
only when phantom power is off. However, such magnetized transformers can be
de-magnetized."


The results are probably subtle,

BillW says:

"However, distortion tests before and after exposure to the worst-case 7 mA
current pulses have shown that the effects are indeed subtle"

There's that word subtle.

but not at high levels,
moreso at lower levels where xfmrs are not very distorted.

I have some transformers on hand to test...

[Scott Dorsey]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"martymart" wrote in message
oups.com
Wrong on a number of counts.

First, most modern equipment lacks transformers. SM57s
are more the exception than the rule, for example.

I think there are about a gazillion dynamics and chinese
LDCs that use xfmrs at their outputs. Maybe even several
"good" mics.

IME, most Chinese LDCs are transformerless. Transformers cost money.

Unfortunately most of them use a transformer, because the design they
copied did. And unfortunately the transformers most of them use are
so shoddy they should not be considered acceptable for AC power applications
let alone broadband audio. This goes for some of the $1000 and above
Chinese mikes as well, I am sorry to report.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Preben Friis]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Emiliano Grilli wrote:
Thank you again and sorry for inaccurate information (I also said
MD421N while is MD421HN)

The 421HN is a wacky thing with dual impedance windings for either high
or low-Z output. I've never actually seen one in the US. But you can
call Sennheiser and get the manual so you can make sure the one you have
is set up properly for the input you're using.

The schematics for N (Low impedance) and HL (High/Low impedeance) are he

http://hiq.homepage.dk/studio/421.jpg

Don't know about the HN though...

/Preben Friis