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#1
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Microphone and vocal - chain preamp opinions sought
I just picked up a new apogee mini-me, which has two mic preamps. In
the headphone mix, each preamp is panned hard left or right ... it cannot be centered. This is awkward while recording vocals. Apogee's solution was to route the audio through the DAW and reference the "processed" sound ... my DAW cannot do this. I am a musician not a studio. I sing hard rock vocals similar to tool, maiden, nails. I will be in many different rooms of varied size and dimension. I was considering picking up a portable all in one solution like the TC Voicelive, which has a stereo audio output. However, I am suspect of the quality of the whole chain within the machine: preamp, limiter et al. I had a finalizer plus for a while, but once a bought an Apogee Rosetta, the TC quickly found a new home. I like TC's reverb (I own the MOne) but I'm not so sure about the rest of the electronics. Some companies seem to be able to make one great machine and then totally screw up the next. Does anyone have an opinion of this box? I was also considering two microphones. I could simply sing stereo tracks with two mics. (That is, instead of dropping 700 bucks for the TC voicelive just to a/d my voice then d/a and then a/d it again at the Apogee.) I have one neaumann tlm103. I was thinking about buying another or perhaps coupling it with another mic that I already own ... kinda like how guitarists use an sm58 and sm57 on their amps. The cost of an aditional neumann is less than the cost of the voicelive. I own a rode nt1 (crappy I know, but it has it's own character). Has anyone personally had any good results experimenting specifically in this way? Will you talk about it a little bit? Do you pros find that you usually have your singers double up the tracks naturally? Or do you usually just use a doubling effect? I really need to be portable. I will be traveling and working in Asia for the next few years. I want to be able to record songs on the road and drop cdrs thta of decent quality into local college radio, record stores and clubs. For portability, I am staying away from 19" racks at this point. (I plan to use a couple of goosneck microphone cables to connect the mics to the mini-me ... I cannot even lug a mic stand around with me!) If you can talk about a personal success or failure regarding the idea and equipment mentioned, I would greatly appreciate the insight. Best regards to all, J. |
#2
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wrote in message oups.com... I just picked up a new apogee mini-me, which has two mic preamps. In the headphone mix, each preamp is panned hard left or right ... it cannot be centered. This is awkward while recording vocals. Apogee's solution was to route the audio through the DAW and reference the "processed" sound ... my DAW cannot do this. Well, if your DAW can't do this, how will you use it to do overdubs? I suspect there's a way to rig up your DAW. Meanwhile, if you just want to hear a single microphone in the center of your headphones, that's not hard. Wire up an adapter that drives both channels of your headphones from one channel of the mini-me's headphone jack. Peace, Paul |
#3
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#4
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#5
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My DAW cannot pump audio through my computer in realtime. I can listen
to previously tracked audio, yes. Therefore, I can pump my sequenced audio in. It's just that when I record my vox, they are panned hard left or right. I cannot listen to my vox post computer processed realtime. It doesn't stream the audio through like that. I do have a new copy of the software ... so maybe I missed this realitme monitoring post cpu, but I don't think so. Best, Jason |
#6
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You know, I just remembered that Apogee has a headphones mix to mono
feature. I'd forgotten that. ****. I just got the unit a week ago and have spent all my time tracking music. Your post triggered my memory. Thanks. Jason |
#7
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To answer your question respectfully, I stated that I was a musician in
defference to pros like you. I obviously am willing to learn how to use my system .. I posted here didn't I? Learning has hardly ever been an exercised in solitude during my lifetime ... I've always learned in classrooms or with a mentor. Sure, I hang out alone and work on stuff all of the time. I rarely reach to this newsgroup, but I did on this occasion. My DAW does not stream the audio through to the headphones to monitor. I have to listen to the audio on the front side of my converter: that's just the way it is. So, I play back the wav data that I've recorded and overdub to this information. But my overdub is referenced before the cpu/computer/DAW. Thanks a lot guys!! Then why are you trying to create your own studio? Are you willing to learn how to use your system (or get proper software and/or hardwre) or do you want to continue to be just a musician and leave the technical stuff to someone else? That's a viable alternative - it has been for years. But today, it's pretty common for a musician to add recording to his list of skills, and that might mean learning something new, and even buying a new "instrument." |
#8
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In response to my own iquiry:
It seems Apogee forecast precisely my problem, and hidden away under the dir/usb mix knob is a "push" value that creates a "mono" headphone mix. This will alleviate the panning problem, although I will have to record mono reference in the headphones. In terms of learning about my gear: the criticisms seemed quite strident. I AM trying to learn: that is why I posted. I thought this was a newsgroup capable of handling questions from those that are insterested in learning? There are many, many things that I know absolutely nothing about. I am a musician / songwriter with an interest in recording my own music. This was meant in humble deference and respect to those that have 40 years of experience as solely audio technicians. I am truly appreciative of your help. Best to you all Jason |
#9
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wrote:
I just picked up a new apogee mini-me, which has two mic preamps. In the headphone mix, each preamp is panned hard left or right ... it cannot be centered. This is awkward while recording vocals. Apogee's solution was to route the audio through the DAW and reference the "processed" sound ... my DAW cannot do this. It can't? If that's the case, how can you hear anything useful in the phones? If you are tracking, you want to hear a mix of several sources, not just the output of the preamps. Otherwise how can you play along with the cue tracks? I am a musician not a studio. I sing hard rock vocals similar to tool, maiden, nails. I will be in many different rooms of varied size and dimension. I was considering picking up a portable all in one solution like the TC Voicelive, which has a stereo audio output. However, I am suspect of the quality of the whole chain within the machine: preamp, limiter et al. I had a finalizer plus for a while, but once a bought an Apogee Rosetta, the TC quickly found a new home. I like TC's reverb (I own the MOne) but I'm not so sure about the rest of the electronics. Some companies seem to be able to make one great machine and then totally screw up the next. Does anyone have an opinion of this box? It's okay, but wouldn't it just be easier to make a headphone adaptor so you heard a mono headphone mix that came from one channel? I was also considering two microphones. I could simply sing stereo tracks with two mics. (That is, instead of dropping 700 bucks for the TC voicelive just to a/d my voice then d/a and then a/d it again at the Apogee.) This is great if you can hold your head in one position for a long time without moving it a fraction of an inch. I have one neaumann tlm103. I was thinking about buying another or perhaps coupling it with another mic that I already own ... kinda like how guitarists use an sm58 and sm57 on their amps. The cost of an aditional neumann is less than the cost of the voicelive. I own a rode nt1 (crappy I know, but it has it's own character). Has anyone personally had any good results experimenting specifically in this way? Will you talk about it a little bit? Do you pros find that you usually have your singers double up the tracks naturally? Or do you usually just use a doubling effect? Sometimes folks will track a vocal several times over in order to layer them. Putting two mikes up at once, though, is not useful. I really need to be portable. I will be traveling and working in Asia for the next few years. I want to be able to record songs on the road and drop cdrs thta of decent quality into local college radio, record stores and clubs. For portability, I am staying away from 19" racks at this point. (I plan to use a couple of goosneck microphone cables to connect the mics to the mini-me ... I cannot even lug a mic stand around with me!) If you can talk about a personal success or failure regarding the idea and equipment mentioned, I would greatly appreciate the insight. You _have_ to be listening to a return mix from the DAW, otherwise you won't hear anything useful. That's what you need to fix. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#11
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#12
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I suppose that is what they must do. The poor ears. I have always used
a mixing board setup where I route the computer audio to a tape return, which I reference while over dubbing vocals and guitar. I suppose my first post was crazed. I woke up thinking about this problem and posted before I had any coffee. Acid does not seem to offer the routing scheme that allows for realtime monitoring of audio streamed through the computer. If 5 does offer this, I have had the software for only a week or two. I have been anxious to track as many of my songs as possible and haven't explored many pf the new features. I only use software to record audio. I sequence on dedicated hardware sequencers. I am not trying to build a commercial studio seeking profits. I am trying to ultimately burn cds that I can drop off to promoters and college radio shows. I hope this doesn't **** you off. I have always read your postings here with great interest . |
#13
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The mini me will play back previously recorded files, which one can
blend with a live input. However, my software cannot take the live input and process it and stream it out realtime to the headphones. Sorry to have been so confusing. Like I stated to Mike, I woke up thinking about this trouble and posted before any coffee. It still reads okay to me: I must be crazed or something. My software will playback an audio file that I can monitor while overdubbing. However, I cannot stream audio realtime through my computer software. If the new version of my software (acid pro 5) can do this, I am unaware of it (I have only owned it for 2 weeks now.) I was simply wondering about the dual microphone setup or stereo solution. I did discover/remember the mono headphone switch as a result of someone's post here (thanks!) ... this feature was an aside in the manual ... which, at the time, I thought was completely bizarre ...that is, until now. I will still have to record the initial take of the vox with a mono monitor mix. But after that, I can punch the headphones back to stereo and sing along with initial vocal take. So the stereo setup would require that I hold my head in one position? Interesting. I never hold my head in one position for a really long time while singing. Never once in twenty years. Although, I bet I could if I had to! Better to switch to mono headphone mix. I might have written: Jason, with a stereo mic setup, you would have to mitigate any head movement that might create asymmetries in the audio signal, thus ruining the quality blah blah blah. I figured it out though. Irony is rarely ever lost on me .... living in this vicious hell hole of a city has clued me in to the utter edge of my existence. I only asked about the dual microphone setup because I saw that Neumann sold pairs of the TLM103. I just assumed .... it was was hypothesis. A dumb one now that I think about it. Upon peer review, my hypothesis was shot down before I could setup an experiment. Thanks for the time and $$ saver!! Yes, the return mix! After it has already been recorded. On the way in, I am listening to the signal before the it hits the computer. Apogee recommends listening after it hits the computer, but my software doesn't route audio this way. I'm using acid pro. Before everyone freaks out on me, I have an excuse: First one is, I'm asking, not telling. I used acid 2.0 and then recently bought 5.0. I have had it for only 2 weeks. I haven't attempted vocals until last night, I posted this morning. I was just wondering if some of you veterans might offer some useful information. I have used software since before VST even existed. But I jumped around a lot due to bugs in the software. I have, for the last couple of years, settled on hardware for sequencing (RS7000, MPC and Korg) and the one DAW that never let me down: Acid pro (which was at 2.0 when I last used it). |
#14
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Thanks a whole lot Kurt. Much appreciated. Best to you, Jason / TAS
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#15
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I am not trying to create a commercial studio that is open to the
public and intended for profit. This is what I meant to convey when I stated that I am a musician not a studio. This is what I meant. I am such an ass. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I didn't want you guys to think that I was pro audio studio jock. I wanted to make it clear that I spend more time writing music and some time recording it. I thought you might enjoy helping out a musician friend. I want to learn more about your craft ... your art. This why I posted my questions. I have always made learning a communal thing. Learning, as a rule, has never been a lesson in solitude for me. I went to school with other students and teachers for most of my life. Solitude is more spiritual for me and less academic .... although Sartre or Camus might have thought differently. I have found solitude excellent for study. But learning is about mentoring, wisdom, lecture, advisement etc. I endeavoured to recruit the experts here as adjunct professors. I am sorry. I will never ask again. Still, thank you so much for all the incredible dicourse here. This newgroup is a gem. I have followed it for years. Best to you all! |
#17
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#18
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You keep referring to "my software" but only once in your string of
messages (and that was in the second or third round) did I see that your software was Acid. MY REPLY: I avoided naming the software that I was using in order to mitigate a long debate on software, when I was clearly asking about hardware ... I've seen truly enigmatic digressions result from too much information on this newsgroup. In the end, the software wasn't what I was asking about: I am committed to my current software and converter. I was more interested in hardware solutions toward the end of solving my panning problem -- the solutions that I did uncover, due to all of the excited replies! Thanks again everyone!! In terms of intent of design or the teleology of the software chosen I have no comment to answer that would not be construed as defensive or argumentative. However, intent and empiricism have a dubious correlation. Wasn't this debate coverd in the 18th century? Rhetorical question .... Just a couple of tips about things other than your recording situation.: MY REPLY: I will, of course, take all of your tips regarding netiquette to heart. Thanks a million for the insight. more suitable for multitrack recording? It's not at all uncommon to use more than one program for a project. If Acid is the right tool to get the background parts arranged, then by all means use it. But when you're ready to record vocals and acoustic parts, import the Acid tracks to a more suitable MY REPLY: I can't be jumping around from application to application as an MO any longer. I'm sticking with tracking loops in Acid. The interface works well for me. It was just something that I missed while researching the A/D converter. Thanks again. I have always admired and looked forward to receiving your wisdom. |
#19
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Acid does a great job at recording audio and I have used it since
version 1 WHEN IT DID NOT OFFER MIDI SEQUENCING. I record loops 99% of the time, because my hardware sequencer is a LOOPER!!!! It works out so nicely ... IT'S AS IF THERE WERE AN INTELLIGENCE TO ITS DESIGN. Although, I am sure, Sonic Foundry and then later Sony, never consulted with Yamaha on their RS7000 sequencing OS, so that they might be able to more intelligently design the software toward the end of facilitating their marriage on a binary level. I thought VEGAS was more like Premiere or Final Cut Pro? I thought it was all about video editing? Rhetorical question again .... I will investigate further. PLEASE DO NOT WASTE ANY MORE TIME ON MY OBVIOUSLY ANNOYING POSTS. PLEASE DESIST IN REPLYING. Thanks again for all of the information! |
#20
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YOU WROTE:
Just to cover some the bases, ACID is a *looper* and a bit of a sequencer, not a multitracker and does not allow for monitoring while recording. Vegas is Sony's multitracker and allows monitoring while recording (but has no midi/sequencing capabilities). MY REPLY: I have used it since version 1 when it did not offer midi sequencing. I record loops 99% of the time, because my hardware sequencer is a LOOPER!!!! It works out so nicely. I thought VEGAS was more like Premiere or Final Cut Pro? I thought it was all about video editing? Rhetorical question again .... I will investigate further. Thanks again for all of the information |
#21
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YOU WROTE:
You keep referring to "my software" but only once in your string of messages (and that was in the second or third round) did I see that your software was Acid. This is indeed not designed for that kind of work so I'm not as surprised as I was initially that you couldn't monitor the input through it. MY REPLY: I avoided naming the software that I was using in order to mitigate a long debate on software, when I was clearly asking about hardware ... I've seen truly enigmatic digressions result from too much information on this newsgroup. In the end, the software wasn't what I was asking about: I am committed to my current software and converter. I was more interested in hardware solutions toward the end of solving my panning problem -- the solutions that I did uncover, due to all of the excited replies! Thanks again everyone!! In terms of intent of design or the teleology of the software chosen, I can offer no comment to answer that would not be construed as defensive or argumentative. Intent was covered in the 18th century by Kant and his so-called peers. Humankind was born without wings, yet still humans fly. Our human form never intended for us to fly, however the design of our brain makes it possible. I find that using lots of things interpretively highly effective in terms of producing new knowledge ... using analogues or frameworks intended for or derived from other arts, disciplines, subjects, objects has always been what humans are best at. This whole line of thinking is deeply philosophical. Intent of design and the actual resultant practice or use is the ironic story of human history. Gun Powder was never intended for cannon cylinders ... but there went Constantinople to the Turkish guns in the 15th Century. And so on and so forth ... Simply innovating and thinking outside of the BOX. Thanks again Mike! You are so very helpful. YOU WROTE: Just a couple of tips about things other than your recording situation.: MY REPLY: I will, of course, take all of your tips regarding NET'iquette to heart. Thanks a million for the insight. YOU WROTE: more suitable for multitrack recording? It's not at all uncommon to use more than one program for a project. If Acid is the right tool to get the background parts arranged, then by all means use it. But when you're ready to record vocals and acoustic parts, import the Acid tracks to a more suitable MY REPLY: I do not want to jump around from application to application as an operating method. I find this to be fatiguing, as well a fine opportunity for error to creep into the equation. I'm sticking with tracking loops into Acid. I missed something while researching the A/D converter. However, Apogee knew that this would be trouble and built in the mono switch. Excellent! Thanks again. |
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