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John L Stewart John L Stewart is offline
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Smile Long Tail Phase Splitter

In a previous post John Byrnes asked why I used a resister rather than an MJE340 for the long tail in a phase splitter. The short answer is that it works & very well at that.

The question has gotta be, ‘why does it work so well’? For success the circuit surrounding the splitter stage needs to satisfy the relation, Rk(mu + 1) rp + Rl.

In some of the splitters I’ve built using the 6SL7 family the Rk has been 75K sourced from –150 volts. That could just as easily been a 12AX7. The result is about one ma in each triode. Checking the 6SL7 curves shows rp to be ~58K & mu to be ~70 at that point. The plate resistors (Rl) used are 100K each.

Plugging the numbers into the relationship we get-

Rk(mu + 1) rp + Rl

75 ( 71 ) 58 + 100 (all resistances are K)

and 5325 170

Here is the Mullard 520. The ECC83 (12AX7) is running about 0.5 ma in each section. So rp is ~80K & mu is ~100. Neglecting the following grid resistors, Rl is 180K. Rk is 82K.

Plugging the numbers into the relationship we get-

Rk(mu + 1) Rp + Rl

82 ( 101 ) 80 + 180

So 8282 260

You might think that an N-Fet or MJE340 tail would be infinitely superior. But in practice that may not happen. Balance depends just as much on the two Rls being equal which can be done with good accuracy. The two sides of the twin triode may not track as well over their operating range. Could the difference be heard? Perhaps.

Here is an example of what does not work well, for fidelity anyway. Some circuit designers in the past (30s, 40s) have tried to get self-inversion in the power stage using a long tail. A typical stage is PP 6V6s, loaded by 8K, p-p. So each Rl is 4K. The longtail in one of these circuits is a series connexion of two resistors of 0.27 K each. The grid bias is taken off at their midpoint. The Class A operating point of the 6V6 results in rp of 50K & gm of 4.1 ma/v, so mu is 205.

Again, plugging the numbers into the relationship we get-

Rk(mu + 1) rp + Rl

0.54 ( 206 ) 50 + 4

55.35 54 Ouch! The relationship fails

If it made sense that could have been easily fixed by using a small iron cored choke, for example, the Hammond 157M. Notice I’ve picked this one since it is 259R, so can serve as the cathode bias resister as well. The 8H will still looks like 2.5K at 50 Hz. The 157M would have been too expensive but does demonstrate what is possible.

Today another fix would be an N-Fet. No low frequency problems in that part of the circuit anyway.

Some folks still like the self-inverting output stage. It is useful as a musical instrument accessory for the even order harmonics (2nd, 4th, ..Etc) it generates. See one at this link-

http://ax84.com/media/ax84_m276.gif
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Alex Pogossov Alex Pogossov is offline
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Default Long Tail Phase Splitter

.."John L Stewart" wrote

In a previous post John Byrnes asked why I used a resister rather than
an MJE340 for the long tail in a phase splitter. The short answer is
that it works & very well at that.

The question has gotta be, 'why does it work so well'? For success the
circuit surrounding the splitter stage needs to satisfy the relation,
Rk(mu + 1) rp + Rl.


I would rewrite the relationship as (also ignoring "+1" after "mu"):

Rk (1 / Gm) + (Rl / mu)

It is more convenient as in most cases you start from Gm anyway. Also, for a
pentode you simply ignore the second term of the right side of the formula,
not bothering calculating the exact mu and Rp of the pentode, which are
difficult to derive from the curves. Also for a pentode Gm shall be
Gmplate+Gmg2, but again it is insignificant given that Rk shall be "much
greater".

Some folks still like the self-inverting output stage. It is useful as a
musical instrument accessory for the even order harmonics (2nd, 4th,
.Etc) it generates. See one at this link-

http://ax84.com/media/ax84_m276.gif


Why do you think it generates even harmonics, as usually a push-pull circuit
tends to cancel the even harmonics out?


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Lord Valve Lord Valve is offline
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Default Long Tail Phase Splitter

Alex Pogossov wrote:

."John L Stewart" wrote

In a previous post John Byrnes asked why I used a resister rather than
an MJE340 for the long tail in a phase splitter. The short answer is
that it works & very well at that.

The question has gotta be, 'why does it work so well'? For success the
circuit surrounding the splitter stage needs to satisfy the relation,
Rk(mu + 1) rp + Rl.


I would rewrite the relationship as (also ignoring "+1" after "mu"):

Rk (1 / Gm) + (Rl / mu)

It is more convenient as in most cases you start from Gm anyway. Also, for a
pentode you simply ignore the second term of the right side of the formula,
not bothering calculating the exact mu and Rp of the pentode, which are
difficult to derive from the curves. Also for a pentode Gm shall be
Gmplate+Gmg2, but again it is insignificant given that Rk shall be "much
greater".

Some folks still like the self-inverting output stage. It is useful as a
musical instrument accessory for the even order harmonics (2nd, 4th,
.Etc) it generates. See one at this link-

http://ax84.com/media/ax84_m276.gif


Why do you think it generates even harmonics, as usually a push-pull circuit
tends to cancel the even harmonics out?


....

Because "even harmonics" is a buzzword
that guitar-pickers use, in the mistaken
belief that even-order harmonics, being
"consonant" intervals, produce a more
"musical" tone. Of course, if you want
the classic distorted guitar tone, what
you want is odd-order harmonics.

LV


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patrick-turner patrick-turner is offline
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Default Long Tail Phase Splitter

On Friday, 15 March 2013 09:03:16 UTC+11, John L Stewart wrote:
In a previous post John Byrnes asked why I used a resister rather than an MJE340 for the long tail in a phase splitter. The short answer is that it works & very well at that. The question has gotta be, ‘why does it work so well’? For success the circuit surrounding the splitter stage needs to satisfy the relation, Rk(mu + 1) rp + Rl. In some of the splitters I’ve built using the 6SL7 family the Rk has been 75K sourced from –150 volts.. That could just as easily been a 12AX7. The result is about one ma in each triode. Checking the 6SL7 curves shows rp to be ~58K & mu to be ~70 at that point. The plate resistors (Rl) used are 100K each. Plugging the numbers into the relationship we get- Rk(mu + 1) rp + Rl 75 ( 71 ) 58 + 100 (all resistances are K) and 5325 170 Here is the Mullard 520. The ECC83 (12AX7) is running about 0.5 ma in each section. So rp is ~80K & mu is ~100.. Neglecting the following grid resistors, Rl is 180K. Rk is 82K. Plugging the numbers into the relationship we get- Rk(mu + 1) Rp + Rl 82 ( 101 ) 80 + 180 So 8282 260 You might think that an N-Fet or MJE340 tail would be infinitely superior. But in practice that may not happen. Balance depends just as much on the two Rls being equal which can be done with good accuracy. The two sides of the twin triode may not track as well over their operating range. Could the difference be heard? Perhaps. Here is an example of what does not work well, for fidelity anyway. Some circuit designers in the past (30s, 40s) have tried to get self-inversion in the power stage using a long tail. A typical stage is PP 6V6s, loaded by 8K, p-p. So each Rl is 4K. The longtail in one of these circuits is a series connexion of two resistors of 0.27 K each. The grid bias is taken off at their midpoint. The Class A operating point of the 6V6 results in rp of 50K & gm of 4.1 ma/v, so mu is 205. Again, plugging the numbers into the relationship we get- Rk(mu + 1) rp + Rl 0.54 ( 206 ) 50 + 4 55.35 54 Ouch! The relationship fails If it made sense that could have been easily fixed by using a small iron cored choke, for example, the Hammond 157M. Notice I’ve picked this one since it is 259R, so can serve as the cathode bias resister as well. The 8H will still looks like 2.5K at 50 Hz. The 157M would have been too expensive but does demonstrate what is possible. Today another fix would be an N-Fet. No low frequency problems in that part of the circuit anyway. Some folks still like the self-inverting output stage. It is useful as a musical instrument accessory for the even order harmonics (2nd, 4th, .Etc) it generates. See one at this link- http://ax84.com/media/ax84_m276.gif +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Filename: Avater..gif | |Download: http://www.audiobanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339| +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ -- John L Stewart


Lord Valve is right about the guitar players perceptions about 2H. When you see the squaring up of the clipped wave form in any slightly over driven guitar amp, you begin to learn to never take any notice of what non technical guitarists say about audio. But Jazz guitarists may indeed want to "breed up" 2H and 4H by having over driven SET input stages which then supply a distorted but not clipped signal to an OP stage for a speaker, and this is supposed to sound warm, not cold and hard.
LTP configured OP stages can't work in class AB because the "tail" is a high resistance or CCS or choke. They can only work in class A and most musicians want maximum Watts per $, so they nearly always go for normal amps with both OP tube cathode grounded so each tube can be hugely over driven so OP tubes cope by moving into class C during overdrive, with predominiantly odd H.

LTPs used for signal stages and with MJE340 CCS eliminate the need to have any concern for the same sort of devices each side of the LTP, and on one side you could have 12AU7, and other side 6DJ8, and as long as the RLa for each side is equal, Vo phases will have the same amplitude whether one side only is driven or both sides are driven with a balanced input.

BUT, even with exactly the same devices each side of the LTP, and with one side only driven with input, you have a different Va-k on each tube so the amount of 2H produced by each tube cannot be equal, so there is imperfect balancing and thus less than 100% cancelling of the 2H of each device. However, the amount of 2H imbalance only becomes significant where the tube gain of each device is low, and the higher the u, the better the 2H cancels. In OP stages, any form of production of opposite phase to drive a second OP tube grid will never result in lower distortion that is is routine with use of a balanced drive to both OP tube grids. This means hi-fi amps are never to be seen with phase inversion in OP stages, but maybe its done in some musicians amps, except that I've never seen it, and I doubt the Groove Tube book with so many guitar amp schematics has even one with OP stage phase inversion. Patrick Turner.
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John L Stewart John L Stewart is offline
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Posts: 301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick-turner View Post
On Friday, 15 March 2013 09:03:16 UTC+11, John L Stewart wrote:
In a previous post John Byrnes asked why I used a resister rather than an MJE340 for the long tail in a phase splitter. The short answer is that it works & very well at that. The question has gotta be, ‘why does it work so well’? For success the circuit surrounding the splitter stage needs to satisfy the relation, Rk(mu + 1) rp + Rl. In some of the splitters I’ve built using the 6SL7 family the Rk has been 75K sourced from –150 volts.. That could just as easily been a 12AX7. The result is about one ma in each triode. Checking the 6SL7 curves shows rp to be ~58K & mu to be ~70 at that point. The plate resistors (Rl) used are 100K each. Plugging the numbers into the relationship we get- Rk(mu + 1) rp + Rl 75 ( 71 ) 58 + 100 (all resistances are K) and 5325 170 Here is the Mullard 520. The ECC83 (12AX7) is running about 0.5 ma in each section. So rp is ~80K & mu is ~100.. Neglecting the following grid resistors, Rl is 180K. Rk is 82K. Plugging the numbers into the relationship we get- Rk(mu + 1) Rp + Rl 82 ( 101 ) 80 + 180 So 8282 260 You might think that an N-Fet or MJE340 tail would be infinitely superior. But in practice that may not happen. Balance depends just as much on the two Rls being equal which can be done with good accuracy. The two sides of the twin triode may not track as well over their operating range. Could the difference be heard? Perhaps. Here is an example of what does not work well, for fidelity anyway. Some circuit designers in the past (30s, 40s) have tried to get self-inversion in the power stage using a long tail. A typical stage is PP 6V6s, loaded by 8K, p-p. So each Rl is 4K. The longtail in one of these circuits is a series connexion of two resistors of 0.27 K each. The grid bias is taken off at their midpoint. The Class A operating point of the 6V6 results in rp of 50K & gm of 4.1 ma/v, so mu is 205. Again, plugging the numbers into the relationship we get- Rk(mu + 1) rp + Rl 0.54 ( 206 ) 50 + 4 55.35 54 Ouch! The relationship fails If it made sense that could have been easily fixed by using a small iron cored choke, for example, the Hammond 157M. Notice I’ve picked this one since it is 259R, so can serve as the cathode bias resister as well. The 8H will still looks like 2.5K at 50 Hz. The 157M would have been too expensive but does demonstrate what is possible. Today another fix would be an N-Fet. No low frequency problems in that part of the circuit anyway. Some folks still like the self-inverting output stage. It is useful as a musical instrument accessory for the even order harmonics (2nd, 4th, .Etc) it generates. See one at this link- http://ax84.com/media/ax84_m276.gif +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Filename: Avater..gif | |Download: http://www.audiobanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339| +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ -- John L Stewart


Lord Valve is right about the guitar players perceptions about 2H. When you see the squaring up of the clipped wave form in any slightly over driven guitar amp, you begin to learn to never take any notice of what non technical guitarists say about audio. But Jazz guitarists may indeed want to "breed up" 2H and 4H by having over driven SET input stages which then supply a distorted but not clipped signal to an OP stage for a speaker, and this is supposed to sound warm, not cold and hard.
LTP configured OP stages can't work in class AB because the "tail" is a high resistance or CCS or choke. They can only work in class A and most musicians want maximum Watts per $, so they nearly always go for normal amps with both OP tube cathode grounded so each tube can be hugely over driven so OP tubes cope by moving into class C during overdrive, with predominiantly odd H.

LTPs used for signal stages and with MJE340 CCS eliminate the need to have any concern for the same sort of devices each side of the LTP, and on one side you could have 12AU7, and other side 6DJ8, and as long as the RLa for each side is equal, Vo phases will have the same amplitude whether one side only is driven or both sides are driven with a balanced input.

BUT, even with exactly the same devices each side of the LTP, and with one side only driven with input, you have a different Va-k on each tube so the amount of 2H produced by each tube cannot be equal, so there is imperfect balancing and thus less than 100% cancelling of the 2H of each device. However, the amount of 2H imbalance only becomes significant where the tube gain of each device is low, and the higher the u, the better the 2H cancels. In OP stages, any form of production of opposite phase to drive a second OP tube grid will never result in lower distortion that is is routine with use of a balanced drive to both OP tube grids. This means hi-fi amps are never to be seen with phase inversion in OP stages, but maybe its done in some musicians amps, except that I've never seen it, and I doubt the Groove Tube book with so many guitar amp schematics has even one with OP stage phase inversion. Patrick Turner.
My curiousity caused me to bread board one of these self inverting output stages a couple of years ago. Here are a pair of the actual traces, all measured by a Pico Tech virtual instrument. At the time I shared the entire set of results with Patrick T, altho he seemed not much interested. In the complete data set there are results for R, L & N-Fet tails.

The rounding of the top half of the sine wave is easy to see. A radio using a similar circuit is the Sparton 8549, looks like from the 40s. Back then I guess other parts of the system were little better, so no problem. During the sales process, one more tube was better!

The OP stage of the guitar amp does not need to be run this way at all. To get the desired result it is customary to use a low powered side amp in the audio chain to do that. That way it can be switched in or out. Refer to the earlier post of such a device. There are others.

Even tho the LTP can be almost perfected by using an MJE340 (or an N-Fet), the final result will still need some adjustment. The OP stage may not be balanced, so an AC balancing system somewhere in the driver or predriver can do that. All whether one uses the gold version of the long tail or otherwise.

My thoughts anyway, John Stewart
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John L Stewart John L Stewart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Pogossov View Post
.."John L Stewart" wrote

In a previous post John Byrnes asked why I used a resister rather than
an MJE340 for the long tail in a phase splitter. The short answer is
that it works & very well at that.

The question has gotta be, 'why does it work so well'? For success the
circuit surrounding the splitter stage needs to satisfy the relation,
Rk(mu + 1) rp + Rl.


I would rewrite the relationship as (also ignoring "+1" after "mu"):

Rk (1 / Gm) + (Rl / mu)

It is more convenient as in most cases you start from Gm anyway. Also, for a
pentode you simply ignore the second term of the right side of the formula,
not bothering calculating the exact mu and Rp of the pentode, which are
difficult to derive from the curves. Also for a pentode Gm shall be
Gmplate+Gmg2, but again it is insignificant given that Rk shall be "much
greater".

Some folks still like the self-inverting output stage. It is useful as a
musical instrument accessory for the even order harmonics (2nd, 4th,
.Etc) it generates. See one at this link-

http://ax84.com/media/ax84_m276.gif


Why do you think it generates even harmonics, as usually a push-pull circuit
tends to cancel the even harmonics out?
As often happens, there may be more than one way to a solution. For me the numbers to plug into the relation were simply on the data sheet. I will keep that gm relation in mind, looks useful.

With the PP OPT it may appear that the even order parts would be cancelled & to an extent they will be. But not completely. Refer to the simulations.

Altho the AC volts at each end of the OPT are equal & opposite, the driving AC currents for the resistive tail example are not. It is the current in the primary of the OPT that sets up the result, so distortion appears. The choke tail result looks much better.

As you can see I did this seven years ago, at the request of a guitar picking buddy. He had seen a reference to a guitar pedal that had a mysterious black box in the cathode circuit of the PP OP. We wondered about that & decided it must be a choke. I could have used any triode in the simulation, the 6BX7 made it easy.

Hope all this makes sense, Cheers to All, John Stewart
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