Having calibrated my speakers anew with more precision, I received a
friend's visit over the weekend. He had helped me already for several years
to tweak my pupazzo loudspeakers to more and more realistic reproduction.
This time we took an incredible step forward. We fixed a lot of damping
material on all reflecting surfaces near the speaker and moved them closer
with the centers only 1.8m apart. The listening distance to the front is
only 80cm and the angle is over 45° to the left and right of the center
line. The speakers are almost in the center of the room with around 1.75m
distance to the closest wall.
Now we encountered a phenomenon: When the listening distance was below 1m,
there was a jump of the listening experience from a distance where you heard
the music "in front" to the point where you were "inside" the music. It is
as if you enter a solid soundfield. Movements of the head(in all three
dimensions) hardly disturb this sensation. It is very similar to using the
Jecklin Float Headphones.
The most convincing demonstration occurred when my friend copied the stereo
sound of his video camera to a CD. He had filmed around an hour of video
material during a walk through the city. We had been at spaces like the
seaside with the waves hitting the pebbles, the pedestrian tunnel under the
railway line, some Karaoke bar, on the promenade with people talking all
around. Each acoustic space was absolutely recognizable and it seemed we
were again walking there. The simple microphone of the small camera could
draw an almost perfect picture of the environment, in fact you could
understand how a blind man will "see" his surroundings.
The shortcomings were mostly due to the microphone colouring the sound. Most
disturbing was the "phasing"due to too much distance of the capsules and a
bit "tinny" or bucket like resonances. Later we used a better mike and the
phasing disappeared, but the bass was a bit too strong on that one.
When a certain level of reality is reached the conscioussness jumpes "into"
the soundfield, as it does with any ambience. Anybody has experienced this
phenomenon?

--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

OK, you're done a sort of binaural recording and pretty much reproduced
it by speakers as you would through headphones since you're sitting in
the extreme near field with almost no reflections. It's interesting but,
I'm afraid, not unique and doesn't add anything much to the sum of
current knowledge. (Yes, I know it's not truly binaural since it doesn't
take into acount the head interference. True binaural is done with dummy
heads and microphones in the "ear canals" as I recall. For the purposes
of this discussion, and the effects Ban describes, it's close enough I
think.)

-- Bob T.

Ban wrote:

Having calibrated my speakers anew with more precision, I received a
friend's visit over the weekend. He had helped me already for several years
to tweak my pupazzo loudspeakers to more and more realistic reproduction.
This time we took an incredible step forward. We fixed a lot of damping
material on all reflecting surfaces near the speaker and moved them closer
with the centers only 1.8m apart. The listening distance to the front is
only 80cm and the angle is over 45° to the left and right of the center
line. The speakers are almost in the center of the room with around 1.75m
distance to the closest wall.
Now we encountered a phenomenon: When the listening distance was below 1m,
there was a jump of the listening experience from a distance where you heard
the music "in front" to the point where you were "inside" the music. It is
as if you enter a solid soundfield. Movements of the head(in all three
dimensions) hardly disturb this sensation. It is very similar to using the
Jecklin Float Headphones.
The most convincing demonstration occurred when my friend copied the stereo
sound of his video camera to a CD. He had filmed around an hour of video
material during a walk through the city. We had been at spaces like the
seaside with the waves hitting the pebbles, the pedestrian tunnel under the
railway line, some Karaoke bar, on the promenade with people talking all
around. Each acoustic space was absolutely recognizable and it seemed we
were again walking there. The simple microphone of the small camera could
draw an almost perfect picture of the environment, in fact you could
understand how a blind man will "see" his surroundings.
The shortcomings were mostly due to the microphone colouring the sound. Most
disturbing was the "phasing"due to too much distance of the capsules and a
bit "tinny" or bucket like resonances. Later we used a better mike and the
phasing disappeared, but the bass was a bit too strong on that one.
When a certain level of reality is reached the conscioussness jumpes "into"
the soundfield, as it does with any ambience. Anybody has experienced this
phenomenon?

Ban wrote:
Having calibrated my speakers anew with more precision, I received a
friend's visit over the weekend. He had helped me already for several
years to tweak my pupazzo loudspeakers to more and more realistic
reproduction. This time we took an incredible step forward. We fixed
a lot of damping material on all reflecting surfaces near the speaker
and moved them closer with the centers only 1.8m apart. The listening
distance to the front is only 80cm and the angle is over 45° to the
left and right of the center line. The speakers are almost in the
center of the room with around 1.75m distance to the closest wall.
Now we encountered a phenomenon: When the listening distance was
below 1m, there was a jump of the listening experience from a
distance where you heard the music "in front" to the point where you
were "inside" the music. It is as if you enter a solid soundfield.
Movements of the head(in all three dimensions) hardly disturb this
sensation. It is very similar to using the Jecklin Float Headphones.
The most convincing demonstration occurred when my friend copied the
stereo sound of his video camera to a CD. He had filmed around an
hour of video material during a walk through the city. We had been at
spaces like the seaside with the waves hitting the pebbles, the
pedestrian tunnel under the railway line, some Karaoke bar, on the
promenade with people talking all around. Each acoustic space was
absolutely recognizable and it seemed we were again walking there.
The simple microphone of the small camera could draw an almost
perfect picture of the environment, in fact you could understand how
a blind man will "see" his surroundings.
The shortcomings were mostly due to the microphone colouring the
sound. Most disturbing was the "phasing"due to too much distance of
the capsules and a bit "tinny" or bucket like resonances. Later we
used a better mike and the phasing disappeared, but the bass was a
bit too strong on that one.
When a certain level of reality is reached the conscioussness jumpes
"into" the soundfield, as it does with any ambience. Anybody has
experienced this phenomenon?

I found a few papers describing similar phenomena
http://homepage.mac.com/cooperbauck/...blications.htm

Some more observations:
1) Most CDs have been recorded in an erroneous way. There are most
instruments crowded on three spots: on the speaker positions and in the
center, with the center carrying most.
2) I found a few records with positions between these, which seem to have
been recorded with a stereo mike only. The instruments are in both of my
records with this recording technique arranged in a horseshoe-shaped
placement. Maybe this results from different angles from
recording/reproducing.
3) With the video-camera built-in mike I get a perfect angle localization.
What is disturbing is a slight "phasiness", like a comb filter, which I now
contribute to the different diameters of the mike and head.

The listening angle of the speakers is almost 120°, that is also the
recording angle of the mike. The mike has also a 90° angle which gives much
less phasing, but not so good localization.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

Ban wrote:
Having calibrated my speakers anew with more precision, I received a
friend's visit over the weekend. He had helped me already for several years
to tweak my pupazzo loudspeakers to more and more realistic reproduction.
This time we took an incredible step forward. We fixed a lot of damping
material on all reflecting surfaces near the speaker and moved them closer
with the centers only 1.8m apart. The listening distance to the front is
only 80cm and the angle is over 45? to the left and right of the center
line. The speakers are almost in the center of the room with around 1.75m
distance to the closest wall.
Now we encountered a phenomenon: When the listening distance was below 1m,
there was a jump of the listening experience from a distance where you heard
the music "in front" to the point where you were "inside" the music. It is
as if you enter a solid soundfield. Movements of the head(in all three
dimensions) hardly disturb this sensation. It is very similar to using the
Jecklin Float Headphones.

I'm not quite sure from the description, but it could be you have created
a well-implemented near-field listening setup. I have experienced
remarkable 'three-dimensionality' of the front-to-back soundstage
with such a setup. Although 'near-field' implies that room effects are
minimized, I've found that both the speaker/listener distances *and* the
room prep have to be 'just right' to get the effect. It sounds like
may have adjusted both to good effect.

--

-S.
"We started to see evidence of the professional groupie in the early 80's.
Alarmingly, these girls bore a striking resemblance to Motley Crue." --
David Lee Roth

Hello, Ban,

Ban wrote:

Some more observations:
1) Most CDs have been recorded in an erroneous way. There are most
instruments crowded on three spots: on the speaker positions and in the
center, with the center carrying most.

While I've found this to be true for early pop/rock recordings, I do
not find this to be true in general for the majority of CDs that I
own. With the arrangement you've described, you might try some
selective room treatments on the left and right walls, midway between
the line through the loudspeakers and the corresponding parallel line
through the listener's location. The treatment could be as simple as
an angled 1m x 1m smooth reflective panel at ear level to direct early
loudspeaker reflections away from the listener's position. You might
find that you suddenly have fill between each of those "three spots".

My own notes on room treatments might be useful, but YMMV:
http://homepage.mac.com/tzagar/results.html

Best regards,

Terry

Ban wrote:

....snip to content......

The most convincing demonstration occurred when my friend copied the stereo
sound of his video camera to a CD. He had filmed around an hour of video
material during a walk through the city. We had been at spaces like the
seaside with the waves hitting the pebbles, the pedestrian tunnel under the
railway line, some Karaoke bar, on the promenade with people talking all
around. Each acoustic space was absolutely recognizable and it seemed we
were again walking there. The simple microphone of the small camera could
draw an almost perfect picture of the environment, in fact you could
understand how a blind man will "see" his surroundings.

Actually I think it rather well demonstrates that it's easier to make a
convincing recording of natural spaces that you're familiar with. Whether you
get the same realism with another recording of unfamiliar spaces is not as
easy; especially if its a performance space and sound, such as music, that is
not as "familiar" such as traffic, conversation, surf is being recorded.

I think that most anyone who has been drawn into the quest for "the
Holy Grail" of audio has had such an experience. Many dedicated
listeners have painstakingly set-up their systems and rooms to try to
achieve just that. As you point out, it does not compensate for poor
recordings but it does make all more realistic even if not as much so
as the best stereo recordings. Tannoy recommends such a positioning
for their Dual-Concentric speakers, although I believe that most folks
arrive at a bit different location than you have in terms of space
utilization in the room, for more practical and domestic reasons. The
use of that technique, allows the listener to be relatively free from
the constraints of the "sweet spot" as it takes maximum advantage of
the inherent design properties of the speakers radiating patterns. Of
course it is also a big hit as it creates a more "user friendly"
environment for those who would just as soon work about the space as
to be nailed to their chairs. More traditional designs don't benefit
as much from such a narrow angle as their radiating patterns are not
as broad or as uniform. That does not make them automatically
inferior, just different in their ideal positions. I have been living
with a similar set-up for a couple of years now. Ah, - it's about time
for a change!
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Ban" wrote in message
...
Having calibrated my speakers anew with more precision, I received a
friend's visit over the weekend. He had helped me already for
several years
to tweak my pupazzo loudspeakers to more and more realistic
reproduction.
This time we took an incredible step forward. We fixed a lot of
damping
material on all reflecting surfaces near the speaker and moved them
closer
with the centers only 1.8m apart. The listening distance to the
front is
only 80cm and the angle is over 45° to the left and right of the
center
line. The speakers are almost in the center of the room with around
1.75m
distance to the closest wall.
Now we encountered a phenomenon: When the listening distance was
below 1m,
there was a jump of the listening experience from a distance where
you heard
the music "in front" to the point where you were "inside" the music.
It is
as if you enter a solid soundfield. Movements of the head(in all
three
dimensions) hardly disturb this sensation. It is very similar to
using the
Jecklin Float Headphones.
The most convincing demonstration occurred when my friend copied the
stereo
sound of his video camera to a CD. He had filmed around an hour of
video
material during a walk through the city. We had been at spaces like
the
seaside with the waves hitting the pebbles, the pedestrian tunnel
under the
railway line, some Karaoke bar, on the promenade with people talking
all
around. Each acoustic space was absolutely recognizable and it
seemed we
were again walking there. The simple microphone of the small camera
could
draw an almost perfect picture of the environment, in fact you could
understand how a blind man will "see" his surroundings.
The shortcomings were mostly due to the microphone colouring the
sound. Most
disturbing was the "phasing"due to too much distance of the capsules
and a
bit "tinny" or bucket like resonances. Later we used a better mike
and the
phasing disappeared, but the bass was a bit too strong on that one.
When a certain level of reality is reached the conscioussness jumpes
"into"
the soundfield, as it does with any ambience. Anybody has
experienced this
phenomenon?

--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

Robert Trosper wrote in message news:RuMGc.36710$%_6.1939@attbi_s01...

It's interesting but,
I'm afraid, not unique and doesn't add anything much to the sum of
current knowledge.

Gosh, imagine how absolutely *empty* usenet would be if all posts had
to meet that requirement!


Ban wrote:

Now we encountered a phenomenon: When the listening distance was below 1m,
there was a jump of the listening experience from a distance where you heard
the music "in front" to the point where you were "inside" the music. It is
as if you enter a solid soundfield. Movements of the head(in all three
dimensions) hardly disturb this sensation.

As a recording engineer I will occasionally make use of this
phenomena: Normally the nearfield monitors are set up approx. 1m apart
and 1m from the listening position, but periodically I will lean way
forward over the mixing console so that my ears are within 300cm of
the speaker plane (still equidistant between the two). Listening this
way tends to cause realistically recorded (or constructed) soundstage
imaging to "open up", or "bloom" in an enveloping fashion, &
conversely it causes poorly recorded (or constructed) soundstage
imaging to collapse into a two-dimensional mess. Nice way to check the
integrity of a mix's ambience.

Nousaine wrote:
Ban wrote:

...snip to content......

The most convincing demonstration occurred when my friend copied
the stereo sound of his video camera to a CD. He had filmed around
an hour of video material during a walk through the city. We had
been at spaces like the seaside with the waves hitting the pebbles,
the pedestrian tunnel under the railway line, some Karaoke bar, on
the promenade with people talking all around. Each acoustic space
was absolutely recognizable and it seemed we were again walking
there. The simple microphone of the small camera could draw an
almost perfect picture of the environment, in fact you could
understand how a blind man will "see" his surroundings.

Actually I think it rather well demonstrates that it's easier to make
a convincing recording of natural spaces that you're familiar with.
Whether you get the same realism with another recording of unfamiliar
spaces is not as easy; especially if its a performance space and
sound, such as music, that is not as "familiar" such as traffic,
conversation, surf is being recorded.

These ambience sounds have always had a fascination for me since I heard
"Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast" on the backside of Pink Floyds "Atom Heart
Mother". And yes, it is easier to "jump into" familiar spaces, but the mind
also does the same with any recording, as long as a certain quality of the
recording/reproduction chain has been reached. And it happens instantly, no
effort is needed like when fixating a "Magic Eyes" graphic. But still a
similar process happens, in the link it was called "3d-Audio".
I have observed this phenomenon for 4years now and managed to extend the
"sweet spot" to a big solid area where head movements do not break up this
sensation. The omnidirectional design of my prototype speakers has its roots
in this observation. I also attribute this spacial effect to the satisfying
sound of many car-stereos, at least I explain it this way(treble projected
thru the windshield, no corners of the baffle, absorbing material on many
surfaces)
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy
http://www.pupazzo.page.ms/

Zagar wrote:
Hello, Ban,

Ban wrote:

While I've found this to be true for early pop/rock recordings, I do
not find this to be true in general for the majority of CDs that I
own. With the arrangement you've described, you might try some
selective room treatments on the left and right walls, midway between
the line through the loudspeakers and the corresponding parallel line
through the listener's location. The treatment could be as simple as
an angled 1m x 1m smooth reflective panel at ear level to direct early
loudspeaker reflections away from the listener's position. You might
find that you suddenly have fill between each of those "three spots".


My own notes on room treatments might be useful, but YMMV:
http://homepage.mac.com/tzagar/results.html

Best regards,

Terry

Terry,
I like your pages, interesting measurements. What I miss is depicting the
room modes with the Eigenfrequencies of the room. You seem to have focused
on early reflections and initial time-delay gap.
Your advise with room treatment is valid and there is a little variation. My
room is about the same size as yours, but more square and the ceiling is at
3m, almost 10'. But my speakers are very close, 2.5' from my ears. I also
have moved the speakers more and more into the center of the room. I could
observe less exitement of standing waves. The first reflection from the
floor is far more ahead than 10ms, I guess that is the case in any normal
environment and unavoidable. Since my bass-speakers radiates only 5cm above
the floor, I thought of adding a delayed inverse signal, which could
compensate up to 500Hz, the linear bandwidth of the 12" woofer.
The imaging is superb with the microphone recordings and with a few CDs.
Most classic CDs are good, maybe I own too many 70s and 80s records, these
are observably with the 3 zones. The center zone has an extension of maybe
+/-15°, the same from the sides to the middle, whereas to the outside the
imaging quality extends very far.
New electronic music which I have a lot (trance, ambient, chill-out) has
some voices travelling on phantastic curves even layered in height, but the
rest is again the "conventional arrangement". I tried moving big matrasses,
but could not get improvements.
But still the speakers itself disappear completely, with a blindfold you
will not guess where they are situated, in fact when opening the eyes, you
cannot believe they are so close.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

"Buster Mudd" wrote in message
news:b%eHc.12826$WX.1244@attbi_s51...
Robert Trosper wrote in message
news:RuMGc.36710$%_6.1939@attbi_s01...

It's interesting but,
I'm afraid, not unique and doesn't add anything much to the sum of
current knowledge.

Gosh, imagine how absolutely *empty* usenet would be if all posts
had
to meet that requirement!


Ban wrote:

Now we encountered a phenomenon: When the listening distance was
below 1m,
there was a jump of the listening experience from a distance
where you heard
the music "in front" to the point where you were "inside" the
music. It is
as if you enter a solid soundfield. Movements of the head(in all
three
dimensions) hardly disturb this sensation.

As a recording engineer I will occasionally make use of this
phenomena: Normally the nearfield monitors are set up approx. 1m
apart
and 1m from the listening position, but periodically I will lean way
forward over the mixing console so that my ears are within 300cm of
the speaker plane (still equidistant between the two). Listening
this
way tends to cause realistically recorded (or constructed)
soundstage
imaging to "open up", or "bloom" in an enveloping fashion, &
conversely it causes poorly recorded (or constructed) soundstage
imaging to collapse into a two-dimensional mess. Nice way to check
the
integrity of a mix's ambience.

Would that be "within 30cm" ?