Hi,

I have an opportunity to buy either of these components sets..

Obviously the JBL's are quite a lot cheaper..
The Alpine's have been offered to me at a VERY good price compared to
what they usually sell for (but still quite a bit more than the JBL's)..

So I guess what I am asking is for advice..
If you had to choose between the two which would you go for?

Thanks

I was not particularly impressed with the Type R's when I heard them.
Haven't heard the JBL's, but if you have the opportunity to listen to them
both, than do that. Otherwise it's a shot in the dark.

--
- AUSTIN BECKER
"WipeOut" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I have an opportunity to buy either of these components sets..

Obviously the JBL's are quite a lot cheaper..
The Alpine's have been offered to me at a VERY good price compared to
what they usually sell for (but still quite a bit more than the JBL's)..

So I guess what I am asking is for advice..
If you had to choose between the two which would you go for?

Thanks

"If you had to choose between the two which would you go for?"

The ones that sound better ....

I have never heard the JBL's. But I've heard the Alpines. I wasn't
impressed. Why they make a one piece cone (no dustcap) is beyond me.
Marketing appeal I guess. It flies in the face of good design and
engineering.

-RG

"WipeOut" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I have an opportunity to buy either of these components sets..

Obviously the JBL's are quite a lot cheaper..
The Alpine's have been offered to me at a VERY good price compared to what
they usually sell for (but still quite a bit more than the JBL's)..

So I guess what I am asking is for advice..
If you had to choose between the two which would you go for?

Thanks

BTW, I was referring to the older Type R's. I don't know what the new ones
are like.

-RG

"RG" wrote in message
...
"If you had to choose between the two which would you go for?"

The ones that sound better ....

I have never heard the JBL's. But I've heard the Alpines. I wasn't
impressed. Why they make a one piece cone (no dustcap) is beyond me.
Marketing appeal I guess. It flies in the face of good design and
engineering.

-RG

"WipeOut" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I have an opportunity to buy either of these components sets..

Obviously the JBL's are quite a lot cheaper..
The Alpine's have been offered to me at a VERY good price compared to
what they usually sell for (but still quite a bit more than the JBL's)..

So I guess what I am asking is for advice..
If you had to choose between the two which would you go for?

Thanks

Why they make a one piece cone (no dustcap) is beyond me.
Marketing appeal I guess. It flies in the face of good design and
engineering.

Not to get off on a completely different thread....

Why is that? I know that MANY speakers these days employ this cone design
where the dustcap essentially becomes the cone. I am no engineer, but is
this a bad design because it adds unnecessary weight to the cone (they
essentially have TWO cones)? Just curious?

MOSFET

That's about right. It adds unnecessary weight because they still need a
reverse dustcap of sorts to attach to the VC, only it has to be on the back
of the cone which presents its own set of problems. Such a setup makes the
design engineers job tougher because the extra weight adds nothing
sonically but requires changing and researching the other design parameters
to make it work only as well as a conventional design. In other words, it
makes the driver needlessly more expensive as they have to counteract the
sonic drawbacks of using a seemless cone. But it looks good I guess, which
really was the only point of the design.

-RG

"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
Why they make a one piece cone (no dustcap) is beyond me.
Marketing appeal I guess. It flies in the face of good design and
engineering.

Not to get off on a completely different thread....

Why is that? I know that MANY speakers these days employ this cone design
where the dustcap essentially becomes the cone. I am no engineer, but is
this a bad design because it adds unnecessary weight to the cone (they
essentially have TWO cones)? Just curious?

MOSFET

However, might this design actually be useful when designing very high power
subwoofers as it would give you added cone rigidity? I would think that
this might be the only useful application of this design approach.

In fact, as I recall, one of the first woofers to do this was a PPI model (I
MIGHT BE WRONG!). Anyway, this was about 13 years ago and I remember this
woofer had a flat diaphragm-cone that was made of some very high-strength
honeycomb-structured material. I remember you could rap your knuckles
really hard on the woofer cone and it was like knocking on wood. Does
anybody remember what kind of woofer this was? Was it PPI? I don't think
that's right.

MOSFET

MOSFET

"RG" wrote in message
...
That's about right. It adds unnecessary weight because they still need a
reverse dustcap of sorts to attach to the VC, only it has to be on the
back of the cone which presents its own set of problems. Such a setup
makes the design engineers job tougher because the extra weight adds
nothing sonically but requires changing and researching the other design
parameters to make it work only as well as a conventional design. In other
words, it makes the driver needlessly more expensive as they have to
counteract the sonic drawbacks of using a seemless cone. But it looks good
I guess, which really was the only point of the design.

-RG

"MOSFET" wrote in message
m...
Why they make a one piece cone (no dustcap) is beyond me.
Marketing appeal I guess. It flies in the face of good design and
engineering.

Not to get off on a completely different thread....

Why is that? I know that MANY speakers these days employ this cone
design where the dustcap essentially becomes the cone. I am no engineer,
but is this a bad design because it adds unnecessary weight to the cone
(they essentially have TWO cones)? Just curious?

MOSFET

Funny, but almost every Alpine speaker I've ever heard has sounded pretty
good to me. Not my favorite mind you, but pretty darn good. Just goes to
show that everyone has their own opinion. I couldn't begin to tell you
anything about the JBLs.

Tony


--
2001 Nissan Maxima SE Anniversary Edition
Clarion DRZ9255 Head Unit, Phoenix Gold ZX475ti, ZX450 and Xenon X1200.1
Amplifiers, Dynaudio System 360 Tri-Amped In Front and Focal 130HCs For Rear
Fill, Image Dynamics IDMAX10 D4 v.3 Sub

2001 Chevy S10 ZR2
Pioneer DEH-P9600MP Head Unit, Phoenix Gold Ti500.4 Amp, Focal 165HC
Speakers & Image Dynamics ID8 D4 v.3 Sub

2006 Mustang GT Coupe

The only alpines (other then subs) that I have seen without a dust cap are
midbass drivers.

In article , "Tony F"
wrote:
Funny, but almost every Alpine speaker I've ever heard has sounded pretty
good to me. Not my favorite mind you, but pretty darn good. Just goes to
show that everyone has their own opinion. I couldn't begin to tell you
anything about the JBLs.

Tony

WipeOut wrote:
Hi,

I have an opportunity to buy either of these components sets..

Obviously the JBL's are quite a lot cheaper..
The Alpine's have been offered to me at a VERY good price compared to
what they usually sell for (but still quite a bit more than the JBL's)..

So I guess what I am asking is for advice..
If you had to choose between the two which would you go for?

Thanks

I'll tell you what I think about JBL speakers based on long years of
experience with them. JBL makes a complete line of speakers from the
basic reasonably priced to the top of the market in both quality and
price. I have never seen a JBL speaker that wasn't worth the price --
I would buy JBL for any purpose as long as you understand that the low
price JBLs don't have the same quality and features as the expensive
ones.

With JBL speakers I think it is very true that you get what you pay for
-- and then a little bit more.

PD

That's some funny ass ****.



In article , "RG"
wrote:
That's about right. It adds unnecessary weight because they still need a
reverse dustcap of sorts to attach to the VC, only it has to be on the back
of the cone which presents its own set of problems. Such a setup makes the
design engineers job tougher because the extra weight adds nothing
sonically but requires changing and researching the other design parameters
to make it work only as well as a conventional design. In other words, it
makes the driver needlessly more expensive as they have to counteract the
sonic drawbacks of using a seemless cone. But it looks good I guess, which
really was the only point of the design.

-RG

Phonedude wrote:
WipeOut wrote:

Hi,

I have an opportunity to buy either of these components sets..

Obviously the JBL's are quite a lot cheaper..
The Alpine's have been offered to me at a VERY good price compared to
what they usually sell for (but still quite a bit more than the JBL's)..

So I guess what I am asking is for advice..
If you had to choose between the two which would you go for?

Thanks


I'll tell you what I think about JBL speakers based on long years of
experience with them. JBL makes a complete line of speakers from the
basic reasonably priced to the top of the market in both quality and
price. I have never seen a JBL speaker that wasn't worth the price --
I would buy JBL for any purpose as long as you understand that the low
price JBLs don't have the same quality and features as the expensive
ones.

With JBL speakers I think it is very true that you get what you pay for
-- and then a little bit more.

PD


Thanks to all who replied..

Getting what you pay for is always the case isn't it..

Don't seem to be any bargains anymore..

The Alpine component sets were offered to me at 40% less than the
cheapest price I could find anywhere else.. Thats why I was looking at
putting in the extra cash over the cost of the GTO JBL's..

Going on the get what you pay for theory, the Type R set which usually
cost 3 times the price of the JBL set should be significantly better and
I am getting them for just less than twice the price..

My problem is I am a long time fan of both brands so to have to choose
between them is quite difficult from a preference POV..

The GTO's are obviously the bottom of the range for JBL while the Type
R's are second to top of the range for Alpine.. So I think in this
instance the Alpine's are probably the wise choice even though they are
over my budget..

Guess thats what credit cards were made for..

Thanks again..

"WipeOut" wrote in message
...
Phonedude wrote:
WipeOut wrote:

Hi,

I have an opportunity to buy either of these components sets..

Obviously the JBL's are quite a lot cheaper..
The Alpine's have been offered to me at a VERY good price compared to
what they usually sell for (but still quite a bit more than the JBL's)..

So I guess what I am asking is for advice..
If you had to choose between the two which would you go for?

Thanks


I'll tell you what I think about JBL speakers based on long years of
experience with them. JBL makes a complete line of speakers from the
basic reasonably priced to the top of the market in both quality and
price. I have never seen a JBL speaker that wasn't worth the price --
I would buy JBL for any purpose as long as you understand that the low
price JBLs don't have the same quality and features as the expensive
ones.

With JBL speakers I think it is very true that you get what you pay for
-- and then a little bit more.

PD


Thanks to all who replied..

Getting what you pay for is always the case isn't it..

Don't seem to be any bargains anymore..

The Alpine component sets were offered to me at 40% less than the cheapest
price I could find anywhere else.. Thats why I was looking at putting in
the extra cash over the cost of the GTO JBL's..

Going on the get what you pay for theory, the Type R set which usually
cost 3 times the price of the JBL set should be significantly better and I
am getting them for just less than twice the price..

My problem is I am a long time fan of both brands so to have to choose
between them is quite difficult from a preference POV..

The GTO's are obviously the bottom of the range for JBL while the Type R's
are second to top of the range for Alpine.. So I think in this instance
the Alpine's are probably the wise choice even though they are over my
budget..

Guess thats what credit cards were made for..

Thanks again..

Did you check those prices on Froogle? When I compare prices on Froogle the
Alpines seem to be about twice as much as the JBLs. There's a range, but I
don't see any times three factors there. Are you sure someone is not
blowing smoke up your nose about the price on those alpines?

You didn't say what size or model of the Type R components, but they are not
three times the JBLs.

PD

You could always consider putting your own set together. It would sound
better than either the JBL or Alpine and for less money. For instance, buy
two Vifa midbass woofers from their car audio line (P17WG-09-04 or
M18WN19-04), get a nice set of 4 ohm soft dome tweeters that have a low FS
and can be crossed over at about 2700 hz. Then pick up a set of A/D/S 336is
crossovers on Ebay. I can pretty well guarantee the sound you get out of
such a combination will blow away either the JBL's or Alpines.

-RG

"WipeOut" wrote in message
...
Phonedude wrote:
WipeOut wrote:

Hi,

I have an opportunity to buy either of these components sets..

Obviously the JBL's are quite a lot cheaper..
The Alpine's have been offered to me at a VERY good price compared to
what they usually sell for (but still quite a bit more than the JBL's)..

So I guess what I am asking is for advice..
If you had to choose between the two which would you go for?

Thanks


I'll tell you what I think about JBL speakers based on long years of
experience with them. JBL makes a complete line of speakers from the
basic reasonably priced to the top of the market in both quality and
price. I have never seen a JBL speaker that wasn't worth the price --
I would buy JBL for any purpose as long as you understand that the low
price JBLs don't have the same quality and features as the expensive
ones.

With JBL speakers I think it is very true that you get what you pay for
-- and then a little bit more.

PD


Thanks to all who replied..

Getting what you pay for is always the case isn't it..

Don't seem to be any bargains anymore..

The Alpine component sets were offered to me at 40% less than the cheapest
price I could find anywhere else.. Thats why I was looking at putting in
the extra cash over the cost of the GTO JBL's..

Going on the get what you pay for theory, the Type R set which usually
cost 3 times the price of the JBL set should be significantly better and I
am getting them for just less than twice the price..

My problem is I am a long time fan of both brands so to have to choose
between them is quite difficult from a preference POV..

The GTO's are obviously the bottom of the range for JBL while the Type R's
are second to top of the range for Alpine.. So I think in this instance
the Alpine's are probably the wise choice even though they are over my
budget..

Guess thats what credit cards were made for..

Thanks again..

Phonedude wrote:

Thanks to all who replied..

Getting what you pay for is always the case isn't it..

Don't seem to be any bargains anymore..

The Alpine component sets were offered to me at 40% less than the cheapest
price I could find anywhere else.. Thats why I was looking at putting in
the extra cash over the cost of the GTO JBL's..

Going on the get what you pay for theory, the Type R set which usually
cost 3 times the price of the JBL set should be significantly better and I
am getting them for just less than twice the price..

My problem is I am a long time fan of both brands so to have to choose
between them is quite difficult from a preference POV..

The GTO's are obviously the bottom of the range for JBL while the Type R's
are second to top of the range for Alpine.. So I think in this instance
the Alpine's are probably the wise choice even though they are over my
budget..

Guess thats what credit cards were made for..

Thanks again..


Did you check those prices on Froogle? When I compare prices on Froogle the
Alpines seem to be about twice as much as the JBLs. There's a range, but I
don't see any times three factors there. Are you sure someone is not
blowing smoke up your nose about the price on those alpines?

You didn't say what size or model of the Type R components, but they are not
three times the JBLs.

PD



The Alpine are the Type R 6.5" SPR-17LS (second to top of the Alpine
range)..
The JBL are the 6.5" GTO-606C (bottom of the JBL range)..

You are right on the multiples, guess I had my numbers a little screwed..

Basically the Alpine's have been offered to me for £80 and the JBL's are
£60.. Usually the Alpines are about £120.. I need two sets, for the
front and rear doors..

I have about £300 left to spend on the system.. I need front and rear
speakers, I need a sub (thinking the Alpine Type R 12" here), all the
cabling, fuses and distribution blocks, wood and carpeting for the
install and the spacers that my car needs for the doors to fit
aftermarket speakers.. I am using the factory head unit in my car for
now and I already have the amps..

I think I am going to go with the Alpine components seeing as I will
probably use the Alpine Sub as well and I haven't heard anything bad
about them from anyone..

Out of interest my amps are JBL GTO series amps..

"WipeOut" wrote in message
...
Phonedude wrote:

Thanks to all who replied..

Getting what you pay for is always the case isn't it..

Don't seem to be any bargains anymore..

The Alpine component sets were offered to me at 40% less than the
cheapest price I could find anywhere else.. Thats why I was looking at
putting in the extra cash over the cost of the GTO JBL's..

Going on the get what you pay for theory, the Type R set which usually
cost 3 times the price of the JBL set should be significantly better and
I am getting them for just less than twice the price..

My problem is I am a long time fan of both brands so to have to choose
between them is quite difficult from a preference POV..

The GTO's are obviously the bottom of the range for JBL while the Type
R's are second to top of the range for Alpine.. So I think in this
instance the Alpine's are probably the wise choice even though they are
over my budget..

Guess thats what credit cards were made for..

Thanks again..


Did you check those prices on Froogle? When I compare prices on Froogle
the Alpines seem to be about twice as much as the JBLs. There's a range,
but I don't see any times three factors there. Are you sure someone is
not blowing smoke up your nose about the price on those alpines?

You didn't say what size or model of the Type R components, but they are
not three times the JBLs.

PD

The Alpine are the Type R 6.5" SPR-17LS (second to top of the Alpine
range)..
The JBL are the 6.5" GTO-606C (bottom of the JBL range)..

You are right on the multiples, guess I had my numbers a little screwed..

Basically the Alpine's have been offered to me for £80 and the JBL's are
£60.. Usually the Alpines are about £120.. I need two sets, for the front
and rear doors..

I have about £300 left to spend on the system.. I need front and rear
speakers, I need a sub (thinking the Alpine Type R 12" here), all the
cabling, fuses and distribution blocks, wood and carpeting for the install
and the spacers that my car needs for the doors to fit aftermarket
speakers.. I am using the factory head unit in my car for now and I
already have the amps..

I think I am going to go with the Alpine components seeing as I will
probably use the Alpine Sub as well and I haven't heard anything bad about
them from anyone..

Out of interest my amps are JBL GTO series amps..

Well, this is the point I was trying to get at: it sounds like someone is
doing a good job of taking advantage of you. I just found at least seven
stores that will sell that Alpine set for about $130 USD - or about 75 of
your Pounds. When I looked at stores over there I see that the average
retail seems to be about 110 pounds. That 120 pound deal sounds like it's
just the average price. Have you shopped around? By the way, how do you
make that funny "L"?

PD

Phonedude wrote:
"WipeOut" wrote in message
...

Phonedude wrote:

Thanks to all who replied..

Getting what you pay for is always the case isn't it..

Don't seem to be any bargains anymore..

The Alpine component sets were offered to me at 40% less than the
cheapest price I could find anywhere else.. Thats why I was looking at
putting in the extra cash over the cost of the GTO JBL's..

Going on the get what you pay for theory, the Type R set which usually
cost 3 times the price of the JBL set should be significantly better and
I am getting them for just less than twice the price..

My problem is I am a long time fan of both brands so to have to choose
between them is quite difficult from a preference POV..

The GTO's are obviously the bottom of the range for JBL while the Type
R's are second to top of the range for Alpine.. So I think in this
instance the Alpine's are probably the wise choice even though they are
over my budget..

Guess thats what credit cards were made for..

Thanks again..


Did you check those prices on Froogle? When I compare prices on Froogle
the Alpines seem to be about twice as much as the JBLs. There's a range,
but I don't see any times three factors there. Are you sure someone is
not blowing smoke up your nose about the price on those alpines?

You didn't say what size or model of the Type R components, but they are
not three times the JBLs.

PD

The Alpine are the Type R 6.5" SPR-17LS (second to top of the Alpine
range)..
The JBL are the 6.5" GTO-606C (bottom of the JBL range)..

You are right on the multiples, guess I had my numbers a little screwed..

Basically the Alpine's have been offered to me for £80 and the JBL's are
£60.. Usually the Alpines are about £120.. I need two sets, for the front
and rear doors..

I have about £300 left to spend on the system.. I need front and rear
speakers, I need a sub (thinking the Alpine Type R 12" here), all the
cabling, fuses and distribution blocks, wood and carpeting for the install
and the spacers that my car needs for the doors to fit aftermarket
speakers.. I am using the factory head unit in my car for now and I
already have the amps..

I think I am going to go with the Alpine components seeing as I will
probably use the Alpine Sub as well and I haven't heard anything bad about
them from anyone..

Out of interest my amps are JBL GTO series amps..


Well, this is the point I was trying to get at: it sounds like someone is
doing a good job of taking advantage of you. I just found at least seven
stores that will sell that Alpine set for about $130 USD - or about 75 of
your Pounds. When I looked at stores over there I see that the average
retail seems to be about 110 pounds. That 120 pound deal sounds like it's
just the average price. Have you shopped around? By the way, how do you
make that funny "L"?

PD



Yes, I have shopped around.. Remember some stores show prices inclusive
of VAT (our tax) and some will show exclusive of VAT prices.. That could
mean a difference of 17.5% between one and the next.. Either way £80 for
the Type R component set is a good price compared to what I have seen
around..

Our audio kit is way more expensive over here than it is for you over
the other side of the pond.. Its like they take the $ price and simply
make it the £ price which effectively means it costs nearly twice as much..

As for the funny "L".. We have different keyboards over here, they have
a slightly different arrangement of keys so shift+3 on our keyboard
makes a £ and shift+4 makes a $.. Another abbreviation that you could
use in future if you don't have the key is GBP which stands for Great
British Pounds..

"WipeOut" wrote in message
...


[snip]


Yes, I have shopped around.. Remember some stores show prices inclusive of
VAT (our tax) and some will show exclusive of VAT prices.. That could mean
a difference of 17.5% between one and the next.. Either way £80 for the
Type R component set is a good price compared to what I have seen around..

Our audio kit is way more expensive over here than it is for you over the
other side of the pond.. Its like they take the $ price and simply make it
the £ price which effectively means it costs nearly twice as much..

As for the funny "L".. We have different keyboards over here, they have a
slightly different arrangement of keys so shift+3 on our keyboard makes
a £ and shift+4 makes a $.. Another abbreviation that you could use in
future if you don't have the key is GBP which stands for Great British
Pounds..

I guess what I was getting at is that it sounded like you were going for the
Alpines because they were such a great bargain. It looked to me like the
120 GBP (thank you for the abbreviation) you quoted was simply the average
retail price, even in Britain. Personally I would probably go with the
Alpines too, but because they're really better speakers, not because they're
a bargain. I am sure I would be happy with the JBLs as well -- at the
lower price, because as I stated earlier, I've always felt I've gotten my
money's worth with JBL speakers.

PD

"I. Care" wrote in message
.net...
In article ,
says...
Phonedude wrote:
"WipeOut" wrote in message
...

Phonedude wrote:

Thanks to all who replied..

Getting what you pay for is always the case isn't it..

Don't seem to be any bargains anymore..

The Alpine component sets were offered to me at 40% less than the
cheapest price I could find anywhere else.. Thats why I was looking at
putting in the extra cash over the cost of the GTO JBL's..

Going on the get what you pay for theory, the Type R set which usually
cost 3 times the price of the JBL set should be significantly better
and
I am getting them for just less than twice the price..

My problem is I am a long time fan of both brands so to have to choose
between them is quite difficult from a preference POV..

The GTO's are obviously the bottom of the range for JBL while the Type
R's are second to top of the range for Alpine.. So I think in this
instance the Alpine's are probably the wise choice even though they
are
over my budget..

Guess thats what credit cards were made for..

Thanks again..


Did you check those prices on Froogle? When I compare prices on
Froogle
the Alpines seem to be about twice as much as the JBLs. There's a
range,
but I don't see any times three factors there. Are you sure someone is
not blowing smoke up your nose about the price on those alpines?

You didn't say what size or model of the Type R components, but they
are
not three times the JBLs.

PD

The Alpine are the Type R 6.5" SPR-17LS (second to top of the Alpine
range)..
The JBL are the 6.5" GTO-606C (bottom of the JBL range)..

You are right on the multiples, guess I had my numbers a little
screwed..

Basically the Alpine's have been offered to me for £80 and the JBL's are
£60.. Usually the Alpines are about £120.. I need two sets, for the
front
and rear doors..

I have about £300 left to spend on the system.. I need front and rear
speakers, I need a sub (thinking the Alpine Type R 12" here), all the
cabling, fuses and distribution blocks, wood and carpeting for the
install
and the spacers that my car needs for the doors to fit aftermarket
speakers.. I am using the factory head unit in my car for now and I
already have the amps..

I think I am going to go with the Alpine components seeing as I will
probably use the Alpine Sub as well and I haven't heard anything bad
about
them from anyone..

Out of interest my amps are JBL GTO series amps..


Well, this is the point I was trying to get at: it sounds like someone
is
doing a good job of taking advantage of you. I just found at least seven
stores that will sell that Alpine set for about $130 USD - or about 75
of
your Pounds. When I looked at stores over there I see that the average
retail seems to be about 110 pounds. That 120 pound deal sounds like
it's
just the average price. Have you shopped around? By the way, how do
you
make that funny "L"?

PD



Yes, I have shopped around.. Remember some stores show prices inclusive
of VAT (our tax) and some will show exclusive of VAT prices.. That could
mean a difference of 17.5% between one and the next.. Either way £80 for
the Type R component set is a good price compared to what I have seen
around..

Our audio kit is way more expensive over here than it is for you over
the other side of the pond.. Its like they take the $ price and simply
make it the £ price which effectively means it costs nearly twice as
much..

As for the funny "L".. We have different keyboards over here, they have
a slightly different arrangement of keys so shift+3 on our keyboard
makes a £ and shift+4 makes a $.. Another abbreviation that you could
use in future if you don't have the key is GBP which stands for Great
British Pounds..

£ symbol in windows can usually be found within Character Map system
font. Character map (charmap.exe) is usually found in this directory:
C:\WINDOWS\system32. You can also type the Alt Key Code for it alt+0163.

When I try it in Outlook Express my pc simply beeps at me. I could probably
paste it in, but for now I'll just use the suggested GBP abbreviation.

Thanks for the tip though -- I appreciate all the help I can get.

PD


Look here for some alt codes:
http://tlt.psu.edu/suggestions/inter...s/codealt.html

You can find an explanation of the character map utility here also:

http://tlt.psu.edu/suggestions/inter...s/charmap.html
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I. Care
Address fake until the SPAM goes away ;-}