Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can
barely hear myself play.


Problems: Feedback due to a large volume of background noise.


Environment: Carpet floors, 2 speakers in middle of room facing
slightly angled out. There is no proper sound system.


Equipment: 2 Neumann km184's (guitar mics), 1 Shure SM58(vocal),
Pendulum Tube preamp. 6 channel Mini-Console... similar looking to a
Mackie, I forget the name of it. The 2 Neumanns go into the Pendulum,
from there into the mackie console. The Shure is going straight to the

console.


The sound is crisp and beautiful when the house is less crowded.
However, as I've already mentioned, it's unworkable when the place is
crowded. I still get compliments about my playing, but I waste much
time adjusting the settings and trying to avoid feedback. If I play at

my desired volume level I start picking up too much background noise
and it starts a feedback loop that I can hear coming. I then have to
interrupt my playing and quickly turn down the volume. It's also not
crisp anymore but hazy and muddy.


Things I've tried: Placing the speakers in front of my playing
position. The mics are about 2 feet behind the speakers. I would go
further but my area is cramped for space. The two speakers are turned
up about 1/2 their max gain and volume. I've tried turning it down but

it doesn't help. I have to turn up the console gain to compensate
anyway so that doesn't work.
I've tried different gains on the console, speakers, and preamp. I've
messed with the equalizer and turning down the lows helps a bit.


I've also tried to tell people to shut up in subtle ways... but I have
to accept that it's a social environment and that's what they're there
for. I'm not used to being background music.


Once I reach a certain volume, which is barely audible when the house
is crouded and roudy, I can't continue raising the gain without
feedback.


The 2 Neumanns are in a spaced pair position, right up about 3 inches
away from the guitar. I use the bass cut on the console and turn down
the lows to compensate for the proximity.


I'm feeling very limited as to my sound at the moment. I'm not able to

achieve my desired volume levels without loss of clarity and pickup of
the chatter around me.


Can somebody please give me some advice on either equipment or better
techniques for dealing with these problems? Should I invest in Hyper
Cardiods? If so, what is something I should look at for this? How
about the voice mic? Should I be looking for a hyper cardiod for that
as well?


Should I set up some kind of baffling system to my sides as well or can

I solve the problem with the proper mics? Anyone have experience in
this situation? Is there any advice you can give me? Thank you.

"lex" wrote ...
Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can
barely hear myself play.


Problems: Feedback due to a large volume of background noise.

Unlikely that the feedback is DIRECTLY related to the noise.
More likely related to the "no proper sound system", and the
speakers in particular (type and placement, etc.)

Environment: Carpet floors, 2 speakers in middle of room facing
slightly angled out. There is no proper sound system.


Equipment: 2 Neumann km184's (guitar mics), 1 Shure SM58(vocal),
Pendulum Tube preamp. 6 channel Mini-Console... similar looking to a
Mackie, I forget the name of it. The 2 Neumanns go into the Pendulum,
from there into the mackie console. The Shure is going straight to
the

console.

I solve the problem with the proper mics? Anyone have experience in
this situation? Is there any advice you can give me? Thank you.

I'd start with the speakers. They are more likely to be your weakest
link in achieving better gain-before-feedback.

Note that there is a newsgroup specifically chartered for live
sound reinforcement: news:alt.audio.pro.live-sound

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:27:44 -0400, Dana Larsen
wrote:

Fly the speakers up in the air.
It will make a world of difference.

Yup. Restaurants are not the ideal venue for being heard,
but being louder is not a war you can win.

I'd guess that the correct sound system for this Quixotic
battle is a distributed one, multiple low-volume overhead
speakers at reduced volumes.

Put your music in their heads, not in their ears...

Good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck
"Foster Dulles went inside to order Princess Beatrice
a Molotov cocktail. When it was served, she drank it down
in one gulp" -JLG _Sympathy for the Devil_ 1969

lex wrote:
Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can
barely hear myself play.


Problems: Feedback due to a large volume of background noise.


Environment: Carpet floors, 2 speakers in middle of room facing
slightly angled out. There is no proper sound system.


Equipment: 2 Neumann km184's (guitar mics), 1 Shure SM58(vocal),
Pendulum Tube preamp. 6 channel Mini-Console... similar looking to a
Mackie, I forget the name of it. The 2 Neumanns go into the Pendulum,
from there into the mackie console. The Shure is going straight to the

console.


A couple of thoughts to get the conversation started:

More separation between you and the speakers - not sure what you mean by
'speakers in middle of room facing slightly outward' but put them off to
your sides facing toward the audience and away from you. Get speaker
stands or hang on the wall to give them a little altitude and reach over
the crowd at ear level or higher.

Do you really need two guitar microphones? Twice the opportunity for
undesirable feedback. Can you use a direct pickup instead?

Hang something soft behind you to dampen reflections if there's a hard
wall there.

Get/stay close to the microphones. IF you get too boomy with the 58 due
to proximity, switch to something omni (we use a 635 for stuff like this
with acceptable results)

Face it - you are the background music - do the best you can

Carla

Carla

Thanks for the replies. I tried the other forum and got a rude person
who just assumed things about me right away. You people are much more
pleasant.

I've tried one of those pickups you insert into the hole and fasten. I
found I had to turn the gain almost all the way up to get any kind of
response that was at a decent hearing level. When I do this I get lots
of static, the speakers seem on edge if you know what I mean. They're
at that point where you can hear the hiss. So I decided to use
microphones instead. It works great when there are fewer people in
there. The speakers sound at the right level and the sound is clear
and full. I'm thinking they are just not the right tools for the job
in a full house environment.

I can try bringing in a panel to place between me and my right side
from where much of the noise is coming from. I didn't realize how loud
restaurants actually are till I tryed playing in one.

Hmmm, interesting about the speakers being the culprit. I will find
the exact make and model and research it, thank you.

lex wrote:

Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can
barely hear myself play.

Hi Lex, this is an example where it's actually a good idea to crosspost to
aapls too.

You'll see my response there. Sadly those in rap won't.

Graham

"lex"

** Rule #1 - ****HEAD - do NOT snip the screen blank when you post
replies !!!

Thanks for the replies.

"lex"

** Rule #1 - ****HEAD - do NOT snip the screen blank when you post
replies !!!


I tried the other forum and got a rude person
who just assumed things about me right away.

"lex"

** Rule #1 - ****HEAD - do NOT snip the screen blank when you post
replies !!!


You people are much more pleasant.


** Shame how they are telling you EXACTLY the same as I did.


" If you play and sing louder then you will seriously disrupt the folk
trying
to converse - especially the ones near your two speakers. They will then
be forced to shout over you and /or complain you are too loud to the owners.

The only sane approach to this kind of "live background music" is to have
a distributed speaker system installed around the walls and ceiling of the
room - with none near the stage. "




............ Phil

lex wrote:

Thanks for the replies. I tried the other forum and got a rude person
who just assumed things about me right away.

Anyone care to guess who that was ? ;-)

Hey Lex, It's preferred practice not to trim - i.e. delete - all of the
previous post and then you add your response at the 'bottom'. This makes
the thread easier to follow.

Graham

what kind of guitar are you playing and what kind of material are you
doing?

lex wrote:
Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can
barely hear myself play.


Problems: Feedback due to a large volume of background noise.

Hang on. You need a proper problem statement first.

The situation is that you have a limited amount of gain you
can get before feedback. A sound system amplifies the sounds it
picks up by a certain amount. There is a maximum amount of
amplification you can get before you get feedback. The problem
is that you want to have more gain so that you can make the
music coming out of the speakers louder and compete with
the ambient noise.

The ambient noise isn't causing your feedback. The configuration
of your sound system is causing the feedback. The ambient noise
is just making the sound system configuration issues more critical
since you need more gain in that situation.

Environment: Carpet floors, 2 speakers in middle of room facing
slightly angled out. There is no proper sound system.

Equipment: 2 Neumann km184's (guitar mics), 1 Shure SM58(vocal),
Pendulum Tube preamp. 6 channel Mini-Console... similar looking to a
Mackie, I forget the name of it. The 2 Neumanns go into the Pendulum,
from there into the mackie console. The Shure is going straight to the
console.


The sound is crisp and beautiful when the house is less crowded.
However, as I've already mentioned, it's unworkable when the place is
crowded. I still get compliments about my playing, but I waste much
time adjusting the settings and trying to avoid feedback. If I play at

my desired volume level I start picking up too much background noise
and it starts a feedback loop that I can hear coming. I then have to
interrupt my playing and quickly turn down the volume. It's also not
crisp anymore but hazy and muddy.

There are several different things you can do to increase the amount
of gain you can get before feedback:

(1) Fewer mics. Don't use two on the guitar. With a cruddy low-end
sound system, you won't notice the difference anyway. Increasing
the number of mics decreases the gain you can get out of the
system. Decreasing the number of mics increases the gain you
can get. Or, if possible, as someone else said, use a pickup
instead of micing the guitar.

(2) Figure out where you can move the speakers so that they are
further away from YOU but just as close (or almost as
close) to the audience. That might be upwards or outwards
or forwards. Since the speakers are directional, you want
them pointing away from the microphones. And since the
microphones are directional, you want *them* pointing away
from the speakers. It sounds like in your current situation
you are very close to the speakers. Since you describe them
as pointing outwards, it sounds like you have the speakers
next to you and pointing outwards to direct the sound
towards the two halves of the room. If you simply move the
speakers along the wall (that you're against) further out
to the left and the right away from you, that will make a
difference. You don't want to put the speakers all the way
in the corner, necessarily, but you might want to start
with them something like this:

+------------------------------------+
| spkr you spkr |

It would also help to move them forward because they are
directional.

(3) Equalization. There are usually some very specific problem
frequencies where the feedback always occurs. If you have
a precise equalize (unlike what you'll find on these little
6-channel mixers), you can nuke *just* that frequency (as
opposed to, say, the whole mid-bass range of frequencies)
and make a big difference. Ideally, you want a nice
parameteric equalizer on each channel, or if are using a
graphic equalizer, you want something like a 1/3 octave
(i.e. something like 31-band) equalizer so you can hit
just the right frequencies and not destroy the whole sound.
If you have access to a nice 1/3-octave equalizer, perhaps
you could bring it and put it on the main bus so that
you can control the house mix with it. The caveat with
equalizers is that you *MUST* know what you're doing, or
there's a good chance you'll not improve the feedback
situation and you'll just make things sound really unnatural.

The 90-second crash course in using equalizers to reduce
feedback is:
(a) set everything on EQ to flat, turn on all the mics to the
levels you'll actually be using
(b) crank the overall volume up slowly until you hear feedback,
then back off just a slight bit (might be best to do
this when customers aren't around -- it'll be unpleasant)
(c) make a guess what frequency of feedback you just heard.
a "WHOOOHM" is probably below 1 kHz, and a squeal is
probably 1 kHz or higher.
(d) grab the slider for a frequency near your guess, and
move it up 5 dB or so to see if that is the frequency,
then put it back at 0 dB and try the next frequency
until you find the slider that makes the feedback worst.
(e) take the slider of the problem frequency and move it to
-5dB, plus or minus a bit depending on how bad it was
(f) go back to step b and repeat, but please repeat NO MORE
than 5 times. after that, you are doing more harm
than good.

Also, some other things that won't increase gain before feedback,
but could help the situation:

(1) Move the mics closer to the sound source. This doesn't increase
the gain that the sound system offers, but since you are increasing
the volume of the sound it is picking up in the first place, the
sound that comes out of the speakers will be louder.

(2) Play louder. Can you project your voice a bit? Do you have
a bigger, louder guitar that you could bring instead of the one
you've been bringing? If so, that would gain you a little.

(3) Crowds make noise in a limited frequency band. They do not
produce low bass, and they do not produce high treble. They
are mostly midrange. Part of the reason you're feeling it's
muddy may be that the crowd is trampling on a certain
frequency range but leaving the rest alone. It's like having
a whole frequency range removed from your music. If you are
careful, you can compensate by giving a boost to the frequency
range that the crowd produces, sort of restoring the balance.
BUT, do be careful, since this can get annoying quickly (because
it changes the tonal character of your music and makes it
harsher). Also be careful since if you start to really
compete with the crowd, they will just get louder to compensate!
As someone else said, you probably *are* background music, so
even if you could, you don't want to get loud enough so that
you are in the foreground.

(4) Monitors might help. You probably don't have this option, but
a well-placed monitor would allow you to hear yourself, which
would improve things even if you aren't able to compete with
the crowd.

My final piece of advice is this: if you have a feedback problem
that you cannot control and you're in the middle of a show and
can't correct it for real, resist the temptation to set the volume
too hot. Don't push the envlope. Just back the volume off by 3-5dB
(to some position where you know you won't get feedback) and leave
it there. The overall unpleasantness of being too quiet is not
nearly as bad as the unpleasantness of recurring feedback, so don't
try to chip away at the ground that the feedback holds by messing
with the knob. Just keep a safe distance and live without having
all the volume you'd like.

- Logan

"lex" wrote in message
ups.com...

I've also tried to tell people to shut up in subtle ways... but I have
to accept that it's a social environment and that's what they're there
for. I'm not used to being background music.

Then, I hate to say it, but you should get used to it, because that's what
they're hiring you to do. It's no shame to be background music; I did a
background music gig with my mandolin partner two weeks ago, we had a ball,
the audience enjoyed it and still got to talk (because we kept the volume on
background). In fact, one person came up and thanked me for playing at a
volume that still let them talk. She was the same one who identified a tune
as based on "The Ash Grove", correctly, meaning she was listening and still
conversing, a neat trick, and that she's got good ears.

Once I reach a certain volume, which is barely audible when the house
is crouded and roudy, I can't continue raising the gain without
feedback.

Nope. And the louder you get, the louder they talk, until you start
squealing. Then they throw things.

There are two solutions, which you need to do simultaneously.

The first is technical: leave the KM-184s at home, and use a pickup and a
decent preamp, say a Fishman Blender. Yes, pickups suck. But a pickup that
isn't feeding back sucks less than a mic that is, even if it's a Neumann. I
suggest a good-quality magnetic soundhole pickup; I ran sound for John
Renbourn last week, and he made a soundhole pickup running through a Fishman
Blender work mighty well. Oh, a flatter mic wouldn't hurt either. Maybe an
Electro-Voice PL11 or RE16. They are hypercardioid, and far more
feedback-resistant than an SM58.

The second solution is not technical, but psychological: learn to value the
role you're in, which is background music. It's valid, and it can be fun.
Plus you'll feel a lot less embarrassed when you screw up the F#dim chord.

Peace,
Paul

"lex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the replies. I tried the other forum and got a rude person
who just assumed things about me right away. You people are much more
pleasant.

I've tried one of those pickups you insert into the hole and fasten. I
found I had to turn the gain almost all the way up to get any kind of
response that was at a decent hearing level. When I do this I get lots
of static, the speakers seem on edge if you know what I mean. They're
at that point where you can hear the hiss.

Pickups need a preamp designed specifically for that purpose -- I mentioned
the Fishman in an earlier post. Run the microphone-level output of that into
your little mixer's mic input. Run a pickup straight into a typical mixer
and you're loading the daylights out of the pickup.

Peace,
Paul


So I decided to use
microphones instead. It works great when there are fewer people in
there. The speakers sound at the right level and the sound is clear
and full. I'm thinking they are just not the right tools for the job
in a full house environment.

I can try bringing in a panel to place between me and my right side
from where much of the noise is coming from. I didn't realize how loud
restaurants actually are till I tryed playing in one.

Hmmm, interesting about the speakers being the culprit. I will find
the exact make and model and research it, thank you.

lex wrote:
Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can
barely hear myself play.

Problems: Feedback due to a large volume of background noise.

No, feedback is caused by a mixture of having too much leakage from the
PA into the mikes, and having the PA up too loud (due to the background
noise).

Equipment: 2 Neumann km184's (guitar mics), 1 Shure SM58(vocal),
Pendulum Tube preamp. 6 channel Mini-Console... similar looking to a
Mackie, I forget the name of it. The 2 Neumanns go into the Pendulum,
from there into the mackie console. The Shure is going straight to the
console.

So, if you mute the Shure, does the feedback stop? Are you using monitors
or just mains? Are you using an equalizer to notch out the first couple
feedback modes?

A notch filter and more directional microphones can help a lot, but you
might gain a lot from just repositioning the speakers.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

lex wrote:

I've also tried to tell people to shut up in subtle ways... but I have
to accept that it's a social environment and that's what they're there
for. I'm not used to being background music.

But when the place fills up that's what you are, and accepting it is
your best route to finding those people in the room who really
aoppreciate you. Trying to raise the SPL until you can be heard over a
loud crowd can drive away the very folks who would most like to hear
you. It can easily get louder than sensible people appreciate. Play for
the people who are actually listening; if you reach enough of them they
will quiet the room for you. If you drive them away they will be
replaced by more talkers.

--
ha

In article .com writes:

I've tried one of those pickups you insert into the hole and fasten. I
found I had to turn the gain almost all the way up to get any kind of
response that was at a decent hearing level. When I do this I get lots
of static

You can't just plug that in to the mixer's 1/4" input jack because the
plugs match. You need to use a DI (direct box) to convert the pickup
voltage and impedance to something closer to that of a microphone, and
then connect the DI output to a microphone input on the mixer. Some
mixers have 1/4" jacks specifically designed for connecting instrument
pickups and those will work (some better than others) but connecting
a pickup to a line level input will produce the result you describe.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article . com writes:

Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can
barely hear myself play.


Problems: Feedback due to a large volume of background noise.

Nope. Problem: Lousy gig. Don't you realize that all of those people
are drowning you out because they're there to eat dinner and talk, not
to listen to you, and particularly not to listen to your sound system
feed back. If the pay is good, leave your ego in the parking lot and
accept the fact that you're acoustic wallpaper. Play songs that you're
still learning or practice hot guitar riffs. They'll never notice when
you make a mistake. But stay tuned to your audience. When you see that
they're actually listening, pull out your best material, and be sure
to sell them CDs before they leave.

Equipment: 2 Neumann km184's (guitar mics), 1 Shure SM58(vocal),
Pendulum Tube preamp. 6 channel Mini-Console... similar looking to a
Mackie, I forget the name of it. The 2 Neumanns go into the Pendulum,
from there into the mackie console. The Shure is going straight to the
console.

What speakers, and were are they placed? Probably behind you, in
corners, where they don't get in the way of the restaurant operation,
I'll bet. Are you using monitors?

Things I've tried: Placing the speakers in front of my playing
position. The mics are about 2 feet behind the speakers. I would go
further but my area is cramped for space.

That's much too close. It'll never work at anything but a "light
reinforcement" volume.

I've also tried to tell people to shut up in subtle ways... but I have
to accept that it's a social environment and that's what they're there
for. I'm not used to being background music.

Like I said, it's a lousy gig. Take the money and run.

The 2 Neumanns are in a spaced pair position, right up about 3 inches
away from the guitar. I use the bass cut on the console and turn down
the lows to compensate for the proximity.

One thing you can do is switch to a pickup on the guitar so the only
live mic is for the vocal. It may not give you that "studio quality"
sound on your guitar, but the audience isn't going to appreciate that
anyway. Most guitar pickups are lousy, but there are a few that are
quite acceptable. There are rave reviews in the latest issue of Pro
Audio Review of the Fishman Aura processor for a piezoelectric
bridge-mounted or magnetic pickup.

A simpler solution, though not nearly as effective as a pickup, is to
use a single mic on your guitar rather than two. While you might
like the sound you get in the studio with two mics, (though at 3", I'd
suspect it isn't all that great) the subtleties will be lost in a restaurant
gig. Fewer open mics means less feedback. It's in the book.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Carla Fong wrote:

Do you really need two guitar microphones? Twice the opportunity for
undesirable feedback.

Escellent point.

Can you use a direct pickup instead?

The K&K Sound Pure Western rig is simple, reasonably priced, and sounds
ridiculously close to a mic'd guitar. When Lance McCollum says he likes
the sound of a certain pikcup, we're actually getting close enough for
dinner.

--
ha

lex wrote:

I tried the other forum and got a rude person
who just assumed things about me right away.

His sheep was wanting some action but he'd dropped his tweezers and
couldn't find his dick.

You people are much more pleasant.

That all depends...

--
ha

Mike Rivers wrote:

brendan writes:

I've tried one of those pickups you insert into the hole and fasten. I
found I had to turn the gain almost all the way up to get any kind of
response that was at a decent hearing level. When I do this I get lots
of static

You can't just plug that in to the mixer's 1/4" input jack because the
plugs match. You need to use a DI (direct box) to convert the pickup
voltage and impedance to something closer to that of a microphone, and
then connect the DI output to a microphone input on the mixer. Some
mixers have 1/4" jacks specifically designed for connecting instrument
pickups and those will work (some better than others) but connecting
a pickup to a line level input will produce the result you describe.

I wonder if his Pendulum preamp has a DI input?

--
ha

lex wrote:
Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds
80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems,
however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point
where I can
barely hear myself play.


Problems: Feedback due to a large volume of background
noise.

Tain't no such thing. If anything a large crowd reduces
feedback all other things being equal because it damps the
room.

What's really happening is that your system becomes unstable
as you turn the gain up to overcome the background noise.
IOW, your system lacks stability.

Environment: Carpet floors, 2 speakers in middle of room
facing
slightly angled out. There is no proper sound system.

There's your problem: "no proper sound system"

Equipment: 2 Neumann km184's (guitar mics), 1 Shure
SM58(vocal),
Pendulum Tube preamp. 6 channel Mini-Console... similar
looking to a
Mackie, I forget the name of it. The 2 Neumanns go into
the Pendulum,
from there into the mackie console. The Shure is going
straight to
the console.

I'm looking at your whole post, and don't get a good picture
of what your speakers are.

System stability is mostly about speakers, mics and how they
are juxtapositioned and to some degree the room. Since you
aren't saying much about speakers, everything said runs the
risk of being at least half wrong.

The sound is crisp and beautiful when the house is less
crowded.
However, as I've already mentioned, it's unworkable when
the place is
crowded. I still get compliments about my playing, but I
waste much
time adjusting the settings and trying to avoid feedback.
If I play at
my desired volume level I start picking up too much
background noise
and it starts a feedback loop that I can hear coming.

That's how just about every sound system works, especially
the ones that get unstable too easily.

I then have to
interrupt my playing and quickly turn down the volume.
It's also not
crisp anymore but hazy and muddy.

The keys to avoiding feedback are mic selection, placement
and use, speaker selection, placement and use, and the room.


Things I've tried: Placing the speakers in front of my
playing
position. The mics are about 2 feet behind the speakers.
I would go
further but my area is cramped for space.

Depending on how far the speakers are displaced laterally
from the mics, this is a tough situation.

The two speakers are turned
up about 1/2 their max gain and volume. I've tried
turning it down but
it doesn't help. I have to turn up the console gain to
compensate
anyway so that doesn't work.

Proving once again that gain is gain.


I've tried different gains on the console, speakers, and
preamp. I've
messed with the equalizer and turning down the lows helps
a bit.

Here's where you brain comes in. If the feedback ringing is
of a certain pitch, then turning down the corresponding band
on an equalizer will generally help.

I've also tried to tell people to shut up in subtle
ways... but I have
to accept that it's a social environment and that's what
they're there
for. I'm not used to being background music.

Obviouisly counterproductive.


Once I reach a certain volume, which is barely audible
when the house
is crouded and roudy, I can't continue raising the gain
without
feedback.

OK, you've said the same thing how many different ways now?
;-)


The 2 Neumanns are in a spaced pair position, right up
about 3 inches
away from the guitar. I use the bass cut on the console
and turn down
the lows to compensate for the proximity.

OK. The KM184s are cardiods, which are intermediate in
terms of feedback control.

I'm feeling very limited as to my sound at the moment.
I'm not able to
achieve my desired volume levels without loss of clarity
and pickup of
the chatter around me.

OK, you've said the same thing how many different ways now?
;-)

Can somebody please give me some advice on either
equipment or better
techniques for dealing with these problems?

Preferably someone with SR experience. Did I mention
alt.audio.pro.live-sound ?

Should I invest in Hyper Cardiods?

IME they can help. In your situation, mail voice and guitar
I'd probably grab a bunch of OM6s.

I'd also considering dumping the guitar mics and going to a
pickup on the guitar body

http://www.kksound.com/acousticguitar.html#Pure

If so, what is something I should look at for this? How
about the voice mic? Should I be looking for a hyper
cardiod for that
as well?

Hypercardiods can work.

Should I set up some kind of baffling system to my sides
as well or can
I solve the problem with the proper mics?

What about your speakers?

Anyone have experience in this situation?

Did I mention alt.audio.pro.live-sound ?

On 14 Jun 2005 19:58:03 -0700, "lex" wrote:

Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can
barely hear myself play.

...

my desired volume level I start picking up too much background noise
and it starts a feedback loop that I can hear coming. I then have to
interrupt my playing and quickly turn down the volume.

What about running the whole mix through a volume pedal at your
foot? Then you can control your volume while playing. This could even
be used for special effects, such as fading out a song, or waking up
some drunks.


-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

On 14 Jun 2005 19:58:03 -0700, "lex" wrote:

Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can
barely hear myself play.

I think the best advice that's been given in this thread is:

- accept the gig for what it is
- use a pickup with your guitar and lose the microphones

Good luck, and don't forget to have a good time!

It is, after all, contagious.

take care,

dave

Dave Lang wrote:

I think the best advice that's been given in this thread is:

- accept the gig for what it is

Amen. One could screw it up by becoming loud enough to drown out
talking. I can put a seven piece rock band in a small bar hereabouts,
get fine sound all around, and still leave room for conversationalists.

- use a pickup with your guitar and lose the microphones

K&K Pure Western into Baggs Paracoustic DI. Great bang for not a lot of
bucks.

Good luck, and don't forget to have a good time!

It is, after all, contagious.

Infect 'em and they're tips in your jar!

--
ha

"hank alrich" wrote in message
. ..
lex wrote:

I've also tried to tell people to shut up in subtle ways... but I have
to accept that it's a social environment and that's what they're there
for. I'm not used to being background music.

But when the place fills up that's what you are, and accepting it is
your best route to finding those people in the room who really
aoppreciate you. Trying to raise the SPL until you can be heard over a
loud crowd can drive away the very folks who would most like to hear
you. It can easily get louder than sensible people appreciate. Play for
the people who are actually listening; if you reach enough of them they
will quiet the room for you. If you drive them away they will be
replaced by more talkers.

--
ha

I've always found (yes, ALWAYS) that music that is played well will be
listened to. What this relates to is the lack of need to increase the
volume and increase the players' ability to play the music. Good music
always gets people's attention.

So instead of looking to a hardware solution, try looking to a grayware
solution and get the music to grab your crowd's attention. Once you've got
it, don't let it go until you are ready to let it go.

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1118835350k@trad...

In article . com
writes:

Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can
barely hear myself play.


Problems: Feedback due to a large volume of background noise.

Nope. Problem: Lousy gig. Don't you realize that all of those people
are drowning you out because they're there to eat dinner and talk, not
to listen to you, and particularly not to listen to your sound system
feed back. If the pay is good, leave your ego in the parking lot and
accept the fact that you're acoustic wallpaper. Play songs that you're
still learning or practice hot guitar riffs. They'll never notice when
you make a mistake. But stay tuned to your audience. When you see that
they're actually listening, pull out your best material, and be sure
to sell them CDs before they leave.

Equipment: 2 Neumann km184's (guitar mics), 1 Shure SM58(vocal),
Pendulum Tube preamp. 6 channel Mini-Console... similar looking to a
Mackie, I forget the name of it. The 2 Neumanns go into the Pendulum,
from there into the mackie console. The Shure is going straight to the
console.

What speakers, and were are they placed? Probably behind you, in
corners, where they don't get in the way of the restaurant operation,
I'll bet. Are you using monitors?

Things I've tried: Placing the speakers in front of my playing
position. The mics are about 2 feet behind the speakers. I would go
further but my area is cramped for space.

That's much too close. It'll never work at anything but a "light
reinforcement" volume.

I've also tried to tell people to shut up in subtle ways... but I have
to accept that it's a social environment and that's what they're there
for. I'm not used to being background music.

Like I said, it's a lousy gig. Take the money and run.

The 2 Neumanns are in a spaced pair position, right up about 3 inches
away from the guitar. I use the bass cut on the console and turn down
the lows to compensate for the proximity.

One thing you can do is switch to a pickup on the guitar so the only
live mic is for the vocal. It may not give you that "studio quality"
sound on your guitar, but the audience isn't going to appreciate that
anyway. Most guitar pickups are lousy, but there are a few that are
quite acceptable. There are rave reviews in the latest issue of Pro
Audio Review of the Fishman Aura processor for a piezoelectric
bridge-mounted or magnetic pickup.

A simpler solution, though not nearly as effective as a pickup, is to
use a single mic on your guitar rather than two. While you might
like the sound you get in the studio with two mics, (though at 3", I'd
suspect it isn't all that great) the subtleties will be lost in a
restaurant
gig. Fewer open mics means less feedback. It's in the book.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Well, I really haven't taken that particular tack, that being musical
wallpaper. But I guess if you want to get right down to the fine points,
then that may well be the case.

And yes, it's time to talk about the local RAP BBQ because the next week is
going to be really nice.

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Dave Lang wrote:

I think the best advice that's been given in this thread is:

- accept the gig for what it is

Amen. One could screw it up by becoming loud enough to drown out
talking. I can put a seven piece rock band in a small bar hereabouts,
get fine sound all around, and still leave room for conversationalists.

- use a pickup with your guitar and lose the microphones

K&K Pure Western into Baggs Paracoustic DI. Great bang for not a lot of
bucks.

Good luck, and don't forget to have a good time!

It is, after all, contagious.

Infect 'em and they're tips in your jar!

--
ha

Discussing hardware with a person that doesn't understand functionally
proficient musicians is like me hittig my wife when my dog bites me.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:31:49 -0400, "Roger W. Norman"
wrote:

I've always found (yes, ALWAYS) that music that is played well will be
listened to. What this relates to is the lack of need to increase the
volume and increase the players' ability to play the music. Good music
always gets people's attention.

So instead of looking to a hardware solution, try looking to a grayware
solution and get the music to grab your crowd's attention. Once you've got
it, don't let it go until you are ready to let it go.

Generally good advice especially since some diners do not want to hear
the music, regardless of its quality.

Kal

On 6/15/05 3:24 AM, in article
, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

"lex" wrote in message
ups.com...

I've also tried to tell people to shut up in subtle ways... but I have
to accept that it's a social environment and that's what they're there
for. I'm not used to being background music.

Then, I hate to say it, but you should get used to it, because that's what
they're hiring you to do. It's no shame to be background music; I did a
background music gig with my mandolin partner two weeks ago, we had a ball,
the audience enjoyed it and still got to talk (because we kept the volume on
background). In fact, one person came up and thanked me for playing at a
volume that still let them talk. She was the same one who identified a tune
as based on "The Ash Grove", correctly, meaning she was listening and still
conversing, a neat trick, and that she's got good ears.

Once I reach a certain volume, which is barely audible when the house
is crouded and roudy, I can't continue raising the gain without
feedback.

Nope. And the louder you get, the louder they talk, until you start
squealing. Then they throw things.

There are two solutions, which you need to do simultaneously.

The first is technical: leave the KM-184s at home, and use a pickup and a
decent preamp, say a Fishman Blender. Yes, pickups suck. But a pickup that
isn't feeding back sucks less than a mic that is, even if it's a Neumann.

I'll add another...
Compression
When your crowd noise is running at 85dB or so to begin with, and you don;t
want to get much louder than that so as to remain comfy/BG... You;re left
with a dynamic range of a few dB total... !!!
Running a system at a lo level but with a good bit of compression is magical
for this, but you have to be conversant with the VERY different concepts of
GAIN... Vs... VOLUME and how NOT to have feedback happen.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:37:50 -0400, Roger W. Norman wrote:

Discussing hardware with a person that doesn't understand functionally
proficient musicians is like me hittig my wife when my dog bites me.


bottom post?

OK, what have you done with the REAL Roger?

Anyway, I for one am glad you decided to stick around.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:41:33 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote:

Nope. Problem: Lousy gig. Don't you realize that all of those people are
drowning you out because they're there to eat dinner and talk, not to
listen to you, and particularly not to listen to your sound system feed
back.

Welcome to the real world.


If the pay is good, leave your ego in the parking lot and accept the
fact that you're acoustic wallpaper. Play songs that you're still learning
or practice hot guitar riffs. They'll never notice when you make a
mistake. But stay tuned to your audience. When you see that they're
actually listening, pull out your best material, and be sure to sell them
CDs before they leave.

Good advice. I'll add keep an eye out for good looking women on blind
dates with losers or assholes. Knowing which songs to play, and when can
turn a nowhere gig into a fountain of opportunity, especially if you're
single.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:58:03 -0700, lex wrote:

Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people. When
there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's a packed
house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can barely hear
myself play.


Problems: Feedback due to a large volume of background noise.


Environment: Carpet floors, 2 speakers in middle of room facing slightly
angled out. There is no proper sound system.


Equipment: 2 Neumann km184's (guitar mics), 1 Shure SM58(vocal), Pendulum
Tube preamp. 6 channel Mini-Console... similar looking to a Mackie, I
forget the name of it. The 2 Neumanns go into the Pendulum, from there
into the mackie console. The Shure is going straight to the

console.

You've gotten some great advice so far. I'll add my vote for a pickup in
the guitar & a hypercardoid vocal mic (preferably with a somewhat limited
high end, say 15K or so... And use the low cut filter on the Mackie for
both vacals & guitar. No sense amplifying footsteps & silverware.)

You didn't specifically mention monitors, so I'll assume you don't have
any. Get one. Get something small & reasonably accurate. If it's in the
budget (If you can afford a pair of Neumanns, you can afford a decent
monitor.) get something like a JBL EON-10 or Mackie SRM350.

When you try to go without monitors in a noisy environment, you have to
run the mains way too loud just to hear yourself. Set up so the monitor
is in the null of the mic & you'll hear much better with less overall
volume. Then you can turn the mains down and MAYBE your audience won't
have to talk so loud.

lex wrote:

Thanks for the replies. I tried the other forum and got a rude person
who just assumed things about me right away. You people are much
more pleasant.

Most of the time cross-posting is done incorrectly, it had been more
correct in this context to actually cross-post rather than double post
and saved a lot of time for all. Phils posting advice is correct,
whether you like his tone or not.

[about the obvious first thing to try if having feedback issues when
playing a guitar, this typing required because the questionee does not
care to heed good advice and quote properly]

I've tried one of those pickups you insert into the hole and fasten.
I found I had to turn the gain almost all the way up to get any
kind of response that was at a decent hearing level.

Those pickups generally are high impedance microphones as seen from an
electrical viewpoint, and should be connected to an input that works
well with such a source.

I can try bringing in a panel to place between me and my right side
from where much of the noise is coming from. I didn't realize how loud
restaurants actually are till I tryed playing in one.

Again, the louder you play the louder they speak and the more they
rattle the cutlery. Recording a full jazz band in a restaurant comes
with the very same problem and can not be done with distant miking.
Empirical knowledge.

Hmmm, interesting about the speakers being the culprit. I will find
the exact make and model and research it, thank you.

Actually posting proper equipment info may help, and it had been proper
to do it "up front", however in this context the issues are that you
think you are not loud enough because _you_ can not hear yourself. You
have not mentioned any kind of stage monitoring, that could be your
problem.

Have you investigated what the dinner guests think? - essentially they
pay you, so keeping them happy is what it is about. A gentle,
distributed sound system, as suggested in alt.audio.live-sound by
several participants could be the solution, but is outside my field of
experience.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
* The Vienna Copyright convention applies *
*******************************************

Peter Larsen wrote:

I can try bringing in a panel to place between me and my right side
from where much of the noise is coming from. I didn't realize how loud
restaurants actually are till I tryed playing in one.

Again, the louder you play the louder they speak and the more they
rattle the cutlery. Recording a full jazz band in a restaurant comes
with the very same problem and can not be done with distant miking.
Empirical knowledge.

Not quite a restaurant but here's a bit of an academic view of
the people noise dynamic:
School cafeteria noise - The impact of room acoustics and speech
intelligibility on children's voice levels
http://www.acoustics.org/press/143rd/Bridger.html

I get the same type of noise dynamic in the entry hall of
my venue. At times the musicians, still charged up from their
performance, are the worst offenders, ...and the sound levels
in the hall can nearly overwhelm a quiet act on stage.

[ Anyone know of a sound level triggered "Shut the F*** Up"
light ? ]

Later...

Ron Capik
--

"Agent 86" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:37:50 -0400, Roger W. Norman wrote:

Discussing hardware with a person that doesn't understand functionally
proficient musicians is like me hittig my wife when my dog bites me.


bottom post?

OK, what have you done with the REAL Roger?

Anyway, I for one am glad you decided to stick around.

Well, I only got off three posts that way! g

--




Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

Paul Stamler wrote:
"lex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the replies. I tried the other forum and got a rude person
who just assumed things about me right away. You people are much more
pleasant.

I've tried one of those pickups you insert into the hole and fasten. I
found I had to turn the gain almost all the way up to get any kind of
response that was at a decent hearing level. When I do this I get lots
of static, the speakers seem on edge if you know what I mean. They're
at that point where you can hear the hiss.

Pickups need a preamp designed specifically for that purpose -- I mentioned
the Fishman in an earlier post. Run the microphone-level output of that into
your little mixer's mic input. Run a pickup straight into a typical mixer
and you're loading the daylights out of the pickup.

Peace,
Paul


So I decided to use
microphones instead. It works great when there are fewer people in
there. The speakers sound at the right level and the sound is clear
and full. I'm thinking they are just not the right tools for the job
in a full house environment.

I can try bringing in a panel to place between me and my right side
from where much of the noise is coming from. I didn't realize how loud
restaurants actually are till I tryed playing in one.

Hmmm, interesting about the speakers being the culprit. I will find
the exact make and model and research it, thank you.


Thanks, I wasn't aware of this. I remember getting something like this
with my Pendulum Preamp. Either the preamp is already designed for
this or this little adapter does the trick. So it looks like I'll be
able to use the Pendulum and not have to get a DI box.

Check it out:
http://www.pendulumaudio.com/SPS-1.html

Anyway, when I tried the pickup I just went straight into the console.
I had given up on the pickup before bringing in my pendulum preamp to
use with the mics. Someone asked about the quality of the Pendulum.
The quality is amazing. It's my favorite piece I own, more so than any
mics or other things I own. My guitar is my baby though.

My pickup is a Fishman Rare Earth. It's supposed to sound good. I
think I will try it with the Pendulum and see if that does it. I
haven't used the pickup much since I believe in all acoustic when
possible and just started gigging regularly. Someone mentioned playing
all acoustic. I wish I could do this. However, when it gets packed
that's laughable. I do sometimes go all acoustic when it settles
out.

I tried using just one mic on the guitar and one for voice yesterday.
I also flew the speakers up as far as they would go (6 ft). The brand
of the console is Crate Audio.

I don't know how much of a difference it made because it was quiet
yesterday as opposed to Tuesday, the day before when it was packed.
I'll be ready for the next packed house to try either the pickup and 1
vocal mic, or 1 vocal mic, 1 guitar mic. The packed house environment
is the true test.

I aim the mic between the sound hole and the 12th fret. Seems to be
the best place to place it with just 1 mic. I think I will have to
forget trying to accomplish a spaced pair for live shows for now.

There is a lot of useful information here, thanks.

It seems I'll have to get in ear monitors or at least use headphones.

Is there a big difference between in ear monitors and headphones? I
was reading about them and it seems this would be your route if you
were playing in a rock band where you wanted to isolate yourself from
outside sounds. However, the restaurant isn't that loud and I could
probably just use headphones. Or so I think... I don't know yet. I
found they also have a limiter built in. Besides these things is there
much difference?

Nate Najar wrote:
what kind of guitar are you playing and what kind of material are you
doing?

I use a steel string acoustic, sometimes a nylon string acoustic.

I play folk, rock, classical, jazz standards, and my own songs.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
lex wrote:
Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can
barely hear myself play.

Problems: Feedback due to a large volume of background noise.

No, feedback is caused by a mixture of having too much leakage from the
PA into the mikes, and having the PA up too loud (due to the background
noise).

Equipment: 2 Neumann km184's (guitar mics), 1 Shure SM58(vocal),
Pendulum Tube preamp. 6 channel Mini-Console... similar looking to a
Mackie, I forget the name of it. The 2 Neumanns go into the Pendulum,
from there into the mackie console. The Shure is going straight to the
console.

So, if you mute the Shure, does the feedback stop? Are you using monitors
or just mains? Are you using an equalizer to notch out the first couple
feedback modes?

A notch filter and more directional microphones can help a lot, but you
might gain a lot from just repositioning the speakers.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The voice mic has a higher feedback tolerance, or gain before feedback.

I think my attempting to use a spaced pair could be a part of the
problem as someone mentioned.

Another thing I'm going to try is combination pickup and 1 mic at the
12th fret.

Pooh Bear wrote:
lex wrote:

Hi, I've been playing in a restaurant that sometimes holds 80 people.
When there are around 30 or less I have no problems, however when it's
a packed house I'm drowned out by the talking to the point where I can
barely hear myself play.

Hi Lex, this is an example where it's actually a good idea to crosspost to
aapls too.

You'll see my response there. Sadly those in rap won't.

Graham

I've never tried to crosspost. So this will make it so this same exact
thread is shown there? Ok, how can I do that?

it's nice you have that kind of gear, but i think you're going a bit
too boutique with the Pendulum and Km-184's in this situation. that
adds a lot to your setup time/cartage, and the subtle quality
improvements this gear gives you will likely not be appreciated by the
rabble-rouser noisy restaurant crowd. and you have to worrry about
loss/damage to it.

i'd get a nice factory-made acoustic/electric that has the right
electronics in it. run that di, and forget micing it. then get a
vocal mic with a tight polar pattern, maybe a hypercardiod in your
situation.

then run something like an RNC compressor on the stereo output of your
mackie-style console, and just let it catch the gain spikes in an
overall kind of way.

and also heed the other suggestions here too.

your biggest feedback enemy right now is more than likely that pair of
Km-184's. nice mics, wrong situation.

one other quick followup to my other post.

i find in feedback-prone situations, i find it helps to max-out the
power amp volume, and then keep the mixer gain knobs low, rather than
trying some sort of 50/50 gain stage thing. i don't know if there's
any science behind this, but it works for me.

try it... turn up the amp to 10. just keep curious people away from
the mixer controls at that point!

it follows the same path upstream. so if you had controls set to 10, 5
and 3, the power amp would be on 10, the main mixer output would be on
5, and the channel gain would be on 3.

it's kind of backwards to studio recording, where you want a really hot
signal going to the recorder, close under digital full scale.

for this, keep your front end "cold" and only heat it up at the power
amp stage.

that's what i found to work, in situations very similar to yours.