[david]

I'm trying to record my father talking about his youth but the recordings
come out with his and my voices very quiet and lots of hissing background
even though the room is quiet apart from our speech.

I have tried an old Tandy Realistic Omnidirectional Pressure Zone Microphone
bought about 1995, connected to a tape recorder bought about 1985, though
good quality. I am about five feet away on one side of the mike, my dad
four feet on the other side, but the speech comes out faint and you
have to listen through hissing.

Have also tried an Olympus WS-200s digital voice recorder - this seems to
pick up more - the speech is louder, but less clear, and same hissing.
I was surprised that the Olympus was not far behind the Tandy in quality.

Best is Sony camcorder about four years old, almost no hissing, and
speech is loud and clear, though can hear the camcorder whirring.

Please could someone tell me why the camcorder is good - what's going
on in it that makes the speech loud and stops most background noise?
Is it amplifying the speech?

More importantly, does anyone have any suggestions as to what
microphone(s) I should buy to get a proper sounding recording? Is there a
mike which would work from several feet away? Or should I buy two mikes,
one for my dad to hold near his mouth and one for me, with some sort
of cheap mixer. What should sort of device should I be recording onto?


David

[daz.diamond]

a portable minidisc and some cheap omnidirection capsules should do a
fine job

david wrote:
I'm trying to record my father talking about his youth but the recordings
come out with his and my voices very quiet and lots of hissing background
even though the room is quiet apart from our speech.

I have tried an old Tandy Realistic Omnidirectional Pressure Zone Microphone
bought about 1995, connected to a tape recorder bought about 1985, though
good quality. I am about five feet away on one side of the mike, my dad
four feet on the other side, but the speech comes out faint and you
have to listen through hissing.

Have also tried an Olympus WS-200s digital voice recorder - this seems to
pick up more - the speech is louder, but less clear, and same hissing.
I was surprised that the Olympus was not far behind the Tandy in quality.

Best is Sony camcorder about four years old, almost no hissing, and
speech is loud and clear, though can hear the camcorder whirring.

Please could someone tell me why the camcorder is good - what's going
on in it that makes the speech loud and stops most background noise?
Is it amplifying the speech?

More importantly, does anyone have any suggestions as to what
microphone(s) I should buy to get a proper sounding recording? Is there a
mike which would work from several feet away? Or should I buy two mikes,
one for my dad to hold near his mouth and one for me, with some sort
of cheap mixer. What should sort of device should I be recording onto?


David

[Richard Crowley]

"david" wrote ...
I'm trying to record my father talking about his youth but the recordings
come out with his and my voices very quiet and lots of hissing background
even though the room is quiet apart from our speech.

I have tried an old Tandy Realistic Omnidirectional Pressure Zone
Microphone
bought about 1995, connected to a tape recorder bought about 1985, though
good quality. I am about five feet away on one side of the mike, my dad
four feet on the other side, but the speech comes out faint and you
have to listen through hissing.

PZM mics need a reflective surface under them. Your PZM mic
might work better if it were placed on a table (without a table-
cloth, etc.) and you two were seated at the table.

Have also tried an Olympus WS-200s digital voice recorder - this seems to
pick up more - the speech is louder, but less clear, and same hissing.
I was surprised that the Olympus was not far behind the Tandy in quality.

You have two variables here. The sensitivity and location of the mic,
and the method of recording. Sounds like you are just trying to mic
from too far away. If you *must* have the mic that far away, you need
to use the same kinds of solutions used by people shooting Hollywood
movies, etc. They use shotgun microphones that cost thousands of $$$
and even then half the dialog is "looped" (replaced) later in the studio.

But I don't see why you *must* have the mic so far away?
Perhaps we are missing something here?

Best is Sony camcorder about four years old, almost no hissing, and
speech is loud and clear, though can hear the camcorder whirring.

Please could someone tell me why the camcorder is good - what's going
on in it that makes the speech loud and stops most background noise?
Is it amplifying the speech?

You didn't mention *where* you put the camera? Was it as far
away and/or in the same place as when you were using your
PZM mic?

More importantly, does anyone have any suggestions as to what
microphone(s) I should buy to get a proper sounding recording? Is there a
mike which would work from several feet away? Or should I buy two mikes,
one for my dad to hold near his mouth and one for me, with some sort
of cheap mixer. What should sort of device should I be recording onto?

Trying to mic civilians (non-actors) from "several feet away"
is difficult even with a $1500 shotgun mic. There is NO
substitute to getting the mic closer to the talker. A cheap
$25 clip-on lapel mic from Radio Shack at 1-foot will usually
sound better than a $3000 shotgun 10 feet away, especially
if there is much ambient noise.

Did you mention what you are recording with? If so, I missed it.
If you really intend to record a *dialog* (you asking questions or
interacting with your dad), put a mic on each of you. If you are
recording on something that is stereo, put one mic on each
channel, you don't need a mixer.

[david]

Many thanks for your explanation and ideas. I didn't
realise everybody found it difficult to record from
four or five feet, not just me.

If I got two lapel mikes, what type of recording machine
should I plug them into? I don't want to use my PC because
it's inconvenient and makes a noise which I'm sure
the mikes would pick up. Also it has only one mic socket and
I would need something to put two lapel mikes into.

My old tape recorder has only a mono mike input.

Ideally I'd like to record to digitally and just store the files
on PC later.

Is minidisc going out of fashion?

What would you use?

David


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...

"david" wrote ...
I'm trying to record my father talking about his youth but the recordings
come out with his and my voices very quiet and lots of hissing background
even though the room is quiet apart from our speech.

I have tried an old Tandy Realistic Omnidirectional Pressure Zone
Microphone
bought about 1995, connected to a tape recorder bought about 1985, though
good quality. I am about five feet away on one side of the mike, my dad
four feet on the other side, but the speech comes out faint and you
have to listen through hissing.

PZM mics need a reflective surface under them. Your PZM mic
might work better if it were placed on a table (without a table-
cloth, etc.) and you two were seated at the table.

Have also tried an Olympus WS-200s digital voice recorder - this seems to
pick up more - the speech is louder, but less clear, and same hissing.
I was surprised that the Olympus was not far behind the Tandy in quality.

You have two variables here. The sensitivity and location of the mic,
and the method of recording. Sounds like you are just trying to mic
from too far away. If you *must* have the mic that far away, you need
to use the same kinds of solutions used by people shooting Hollywood
movies, etc. They use shotgun microphones that cost thousands of $$$
and even then half the dialog is "looped" (replaced) later in the studio.

But I don't see why you *must* have the mic so far away?
Perhaps we are missing something here?

Best is Sony camcorder about four years old, almost no hissing, and
speech is loud and clear, though can hear the camcorder whirring.

Please could someone tell me why the camcorder is good - what's going
on in it that makes the speech loud and stops most background noise?
Is it amplifying the speech?

You didn't mention *where* you put the camera? Was it as far
away and/or in the same place as when you were using your
PZM mic?

More importantly, does anyone have any suggestions as to what
microphone(s) I should buy to get a proper sounding recording? Is there
a
mike which would work from several feet away? Or should I buy two mikes,
one for my dad to hold near his mouth and one for me, with some sort
of cheap mixer. What should sort of device should I be recording onto?

Trying to mic civilians (non-actors) from "several feet away"
is difficult even with a $1500 shotgun mic. There is NO
substitute to getting the mic closer to the talker. A cheap
$25 clip-on lapel mic from Radio Shack at 1-foot will usually
sound better than a $3000 shotgun 10 feet away, especially
if there is much ambient noise.

Did you mention what you are recording with? If so, I missed it.
If you really intend to record a *dialog* (you asking questions or
interacting with your dad), put a mic on each of you. If you are
recording on something that is stereo, put one mic on each
channel, you don't need a mixer.

[david]

"daz.diamond" wrote in message
...
a portable minidisc and some cheap omnidirection capsules should do a fine
job

Problem is they're quite expensive though would buy one if best option.
I get impression they may be going to be abandoned by sony. Are they
better quality than digital dictation machines like olympus WS-200s or
sony dictation?

David

[Richard Crowley]

"david" wrote ...
Many thanks for your explanation and ideas. I didn't
realise everybody found it difficult to record from
four or five feet, not just me.

Its acoustic physics. Its not just a good idea, its the law.

If I got two lapel mikes, what type of recording machine
should I plug them into? I don't want to use my PC because
it's inconvenient and makes a noise which I'm sure
the mikes would pick up. Also it has only one mic socket and
I would need something to put two lapel mikes into.

My old tape recorder has only a mono mike input.

Ideally I'd like to record to digitally and just store the files
on PC later.

Is minidisc going out of fashion?

Seems to be. Blank discs are advertised as "hard to find"
and "going fast!"

What would you use?

Can you get the mic (or recorder) closer to the interviewee?

Do you really need to record both the interviewer and the
interviewee?

How does the voice recorder work when you have the
mic within 18 inches of the talker's mouth?

How does the camcorder work when you have it in front
of the interviewee's face (~3 feet away)?

Does you camcorder have an external mic connector?

How far away is your computer?

Do you have a budget?

[david]

Thanks for your reply, helps me understand the subject
better.

Can you get the mic (or recorder) closer to the interviewee?

Yes


Do you really need to record both the interviewer and the
interviewee?

Yes


How does the voice recorder work when you have the
mic within 18 inches of the talker's mouth?

Still background hissing.


How does the camcorder work when you have it in front
of the interviewee's face (~3 feet away)?

Better than voice recorder.


Does you camcorder have an external mic connector?

Yes.


How far away is your computer?

Only a few feet, it makes a noise and isn't convenient.


Do you have a budget?

Preferably less than £100 ($200)

Just seems odd to me that finding soemthing to record on is difficult.
Not long ago there were only tape recorders and cassette tapes.
What do professionals record onto e.g. radio program makers?

[jakdedert]

david wrote:
Thanks for your reply, helps me understand the subject
better.

Can you get the mic (or recorder) closer to the interviewee?

Yes


Do you really need to record both the interviewer and the
interviewee?

Yes


How does the voice recorder work when you have the
mic within 18 inches of the talker's mouth?

Still background hissing.

I'm wondering if the hissing isn't ambient...ie something in the
environment that's making the noise, which is being recorded along with
the audio.

In any case, the answer's the same. You must get the mic closer to the
subject. Your camcorder is probably stereo. Plug one mic into the
left, put it on one subject and do the same (other subject) with the
right. It's not ideal, but it will work. The option is a stereo mixer
with which you can blend the two mics more or less into the center.


How does the camcorder work when you have it in front
of the interviewee's face (~3 feet away)?

Better than voice recorder.

Use that, then...or not.

Does you camcorder have an external mic connector?

Yes.

See above.

How far away is your computer?

Only a few feet, it makes a noise and isn't convenient.


Use a longer cable. Get it away from the subjects being recorded and
see 1st para'.

Do you have a budget?

Preferably less than £100 ($200)

Plenty....

Just seems odd to me that finding soemthing to record on is difficult.
Not long ago there were only tape recorders and cassette tapes.
What do professionals record onto e.g. radio program makers?

1st, it's not.

Second, they start in a noise-controlled room. Then they either mic the
subjects as above, and/or have someone stick a mic directly in the face
of each subject in turn...just like on TV. Watch the evening news.

jak

[Richard Crowley]

"david" wrote ...
Thanks for your reply, helps me understand the subject
better.

Can you get the mic (or recorder) closer to the interviewee?

Yes


Do you really need to record both the interviewer and the
interviewee?

Yes


How does the voice recorder work when you have the
mic within 18 inches of the talker's mouth?

Still background hissing.

Is it electronic noise, or ambient noise? Hide the unit under
a pile of pillows (etc.) and compare to open-air. Especially
for equipment with "automatic record level" (like your voice
recorder), they will "pump" and increase the noise if you are
not feeding them proper (acoustic) levels. Professionals use
those voice recorders like hand-held microphones, typically
within a foot (or less) of the talker's mouth. Your expectation
of recording from "several feet away" is unrealistic.

How does the camcorder work when you have it in front
of the interviewee's face (~3 feet away)?

Better than voice recorder.


Does you camcorder have an external mic connector?

Yes.

I would get a couple of inexpensive clip-on lapel mics,
one for the interviewer, and one for the interviewee, and
plug them into the camcorder, one Left channel and the
other on Right channel. Why wouldn't you want a visual
record as well as audio?

How far away is your computer?

Only a few feet, it makes a noise and isn't convenient.


Do you have a budget?

Preferably less than £100 ($200)

Should be easy to find a couple of mics and the adapter to
plug them into Left & Right on your camcorder.

Just seems odd to me that finding soemthing to record on is difficult.
Not long ago there were only tape recorders and cassette tapes.

Pretty much all tape-based audio recording is on life-support,
and some formats are effectively dead.

What do professionals record onto e.g. radio program makers?

The use small portable digital recorders. But likely out of your
budget range, except for the "voice recorder" genre. But they
also keep the microphone MUCH MUCH closer to the talker
than you are attempting to do.

[[email protected]]

There are some basics already mentioned worth repeating he

-You're going to have to move the microphone closer to the subject/s.
Radio workers talk directly into a stick mic, from a distance of less
than a foot. The further away the mic is, the exponentially harder it
is to record sound.

-The setup you described, with the two of you approximately ten feet
apart, won't work with a normal microphone in a normal room --
Especially if you're looking for a quality recording to digitize.
There is almost always ambient noise (everything from refridgerators,
air-conditioners, street traffic and computers) in a room, even though
it seems quiet. Professional radio workers use specialized sound
rooms, insulated and designed to block out all extraneous noise (and
to kill echo).

-Radio people interviewing outside of the studio use some of the
equipment you have -- They use PZMs sometimes when they know they're
going to be sitting down, or they use a stick mic like a television
reporter. They record into a digital recorder (nicer than the Olympus
WS-200), or sometimes when necessary into minidisc players (small
budget operations). Even then, trained professionals have a difficult
time finding the right setting for an interview, and sometimes they
can't use their recordings in stories due to noise corruption.

-Devices like the Olympus recorder you have aren't for saving audio,
but for saving information, if that makes any sense. They're for
saving the words of the speech, rather than the conversation itself.

-I would test out the option of using the PZM and recording into a
computer, rather than the tape recorder. If the computer's not in the
same room, check around the family to see if someone has a laptop. You
can download a free audio-editing from http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
.... And once you have the recording on audacity, it is much easier to
manipulate the volume, cut out dead spots in the recording, and
possibly cut out the 'hissing' frequencies. And put the PZM on a
reflective background, preferably a table.

In your case, I think the problem is mainly with the distance of
sources to mic. You need to get closer and comfy. It might seem
strange at first, but you would be surprised how much it helps.

[Geoff]

david wrote:

I have tried an old Tandy Realistic Omnidirectional Pressure Zone
Microphone bought about 1995, connected to a tape recorder bought
about 1985, though good quality. I am about five feet away on one
side of the mike, my dad four feet on the other side, but the speech
comes out faint and you have to listen through hissing.

It is hissing because you are too far away and too softly spoken . The ideal
sceanrio would be to be sitting either side of a table. witht he PZM on the
table top. Otherwise you may need some other sort of mic(s), such as lapel,
or other individual jobbie.


Please could someone tell me why the camcorder is good - what's going
on in it that makes the speech loud and stops most background noise?
Is it amplifying the speech?

More directional mic ?

More importantly, does anyone have any suggestions as to what
microphone(s) I should buy to get a proper sounding recording? Is
there a mike which would work from several feet away? Or should I
buy two mikes, one for my dad to hold near his mouth and one for me,
with some sort of cheap mixer. What should sort of device should I be
recording
onto?

Solid-state recorders seem to be the way to go - transfer to CD, analogue,
or whatever by USB. As for noise, that is pretty much a factor of price,
though even the most expensive gear will not perform well if mis-used.

geoff

[[email protected]]

On Aug 14, 8:24 am, "david" nospam@nospam274503 wrote:
I'm trying to record my father talking about his youth
but the recordings come out with his and my voices
very quiet and lots of hissing background even though
the room is quiet apart from our speech.

Yet another possibility is that the output of the microphone
is far too low for the input on the recorder that you're using.
if you have the mic plugged into the line-level input, you'll
have to crack up the level so far that you end up amplifying
the inherent noise of the input amplifier (that's the "hiss"
you;re talking about, to be able to record the microphone.

A solution is to find the right input jack and use it, adjusting
the level controls accordingly, get a mic with a higher-level
output, or use an external preamplifier.

I have tried an old Tandy Realistic Omnidirectional
Pressure Zone Microphone bought about 1995,
connected to a tape recorder bought about 1985,
though good quality.

Connected it to what input?

I am about five feet away on one side of the mike, my dad
four feet on the other side, but the speech comes out faint and you
have to listen through hissing.

If it's "hissing" you're hearing, my diagnosis above
is a strong possibility.

Best is Sony camcorder about four years old, almost no hissing, and
speech is loud and clear, though can hear the camcorder whirring.
Please could someone tell me why the camcorder is good - what's going
on in it that makes the speech loud and stops most background noise?
Is it amplifying the speech?

Because the camcorder's microphone sensitivity and its
internal gain are properly matched.

All electronics have hiss: it's an inherent property of
electronics. But if you take the output from a microphone,
whose signal levels are in the realm of a small fraction of
a volt, and put it into an input that expects input signals
a hundred times greater then the microphone signals
are going to be at the same level as the input electronic's
inherent background noise level.

More importantly, does anyone have any suggestions as to what
microphone(s) I should buy to get a proper sounding recording?

Until you find out WHAT the problem is, you can buy
microphones, spending bazillions of dollars, and STILL
have the same problem if you're not plugging things
into the right jacks or don't have the right inputs
available at all.

Is there a
mike which would work from several feet away? Or should I buy two mikes,
one for my dad to hold near his mouth and one for me, with some sort
of cheap mixer. What should sort of device should I be recording onto?

All of the other suggestions people have made have merit,
but WILL NOT solve your problem if you still use them
incorrectly.

Is there an iput jack to your recorder labeled "Microphone?"
If there is, try it, and play with its input control until you
get the best compromise between the voice, noise and possible
overload. If not, don't even go any further until you have the
means of handling a microphone-level signal.