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LuKeNuKuM
 
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Default talk and then a shout

hello all,

when recording a mono vocal audio track which contains a verse which is
'talking level' and then for the next part (chorus) contains shouting -
whats the best way to do this?

the problem is, i need to turn the gain right down on the mic to leave
enough headroom for the shout but i dont want to do the verse/chorus in
different takes - to keep the natural feeling element. this means
obviously my verse is really quiet. or if i have the gain up, i have to
stand back from the mic which means the shout isn't in-ur-face enough.

i've thought about a hardware compressor between the mic and track, but
am wondering if this is really necessary?

i've tinkered with preset software compressions (which admittedly i
dont have a full understanding of), but then im concerned im bringing
the verse level up too high and the chorus loses its impact.

could anyone provide me with the kind of settings i should be looking
for - im using cubase 2, so i can use the inbuilt VST as an example.
many thanks

Luke

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georgeh
 
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"LuKeNuKuM" writes:

hello all,


when recording a mono vocal audio track which contains a verse which is
'talking level' and then for the next part (chorus) contains shouting -
whats the best way to do this?
Luke


You could try setting up 2 mics then comping the track.

  #3   Report Post  
Eric Frampton
 
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when recording a mono vocal audio track which contains a verse which is
'talking level' and then for the next part (chorus) contains shouting -
whats the best way to do this?

the problem is, i need to turn the gain right down on the mic to leave
enough headroom for the shout but i dont want to do the verse/chorus in
different takes - to keep the natural feeling element. this means
obviously my verse is really quiet. or if i have the gain up, i have to
stand back from the mic which means the shout isn't in-ur-face enough.


How about doing multiple passes of the whole track; some passes with the
mic chain set up for the talking, some passes with the mic chain set up
for the shouting. Then you still get your natural feeling, but you can
comp the two sections together.

Or, how about two separate mics next to each other with two separate
chains set up, one optimized for talking, the other for shouting, to two
separate tracks of your DAW, then comp them together?

--
Eric Frampton, keyboards Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://www.ericframpton.com

(remove the year from the email address above to get my real address)
  #4   Report Post  
LuKeNuKuM
 
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thats a neat idea :-) hmmm, now to find another similar mic!
thanks

Luke

  #5   Report Post  
LuKeNuKuM
 
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How about doing multiple passes of the whole track; some passes with
the
mic chain set up for the talking, some passes with the mic chain set

up
for the shouting. Then you still get your natural feeling, but you can
comp the two sections together.

im glad i posted now! i'll try this one, :-D thanks v much Eric.

Luke



  #6   Report Post  
Mike Rivers
 
Posts: n/a
Default


In article .com writes:

when recording a mono vocal audio track which contains a verse which is
'talking level' and then for the next part (chorus) contains shouting -
whats the best way to do this?

the problem is, i need to turn the gain right down on the mic to leave
enough headroom for the shout but i dont want to do the verse/chorus in
different takes - to keep the natural feeling element. this means
obviously my verse is really quiet. or if i have the gain up, i have to
stand back from the mic which means the shout isn't in-ur-face enough.


If that's the way it's sung, the way to preserve the natural feeling
is to record it that way. Allow sufficient headroom for the shouting
and then decide afterward if the verse is REALLY too quiet in relation
to the whole song.

You can always adjust levels after the recording. With today's tools,
it's easier than ever. But if you paint yourself into a corner by
letting the loud parts clip just so the meters (or waveform display)
will look good, you can't easily recover from that.

i've thought about a hardware compressor between the mic and track, but
am wondering if this is really necessary?


Sure, it's possible, and it's frequently done, but you have to listen
to what it's doing and make a judgement in real time on something that
you might have difficulty undoing later on. For instance, a compressor
that's not properly has a tendency to "breathe" when the gain comes up
to normal (not reduced) level in the transitions between the loud and
quiet parts, and this may be distracting. If you record that, it's
difficult to get rid of it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  #7   Report Post  
Scott Dorsey
 
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LuKeNuKuM wrote:

when recording a mono vocal audio track which contains a verse which is
'talking level' and then for the next part (chorus) contains shouting -
whats the best way to do this?


Record it at the highest level before clipping, then adjust the levels
in mixdown.

the problem is, i need to turn the gain right down on the mic to leave
enough headroom for the shout but i dont want to do the verse/chorus in
different takes - to keep the natural feeling element. this means
obviously my verse is really quiet. or if i have the gain up, i have to
stand back from the mic which means the shout isn't in-ur-face enough.


Yes, but you can adjust the level when you are mixing and you do not have
to do it in tracking.

i've thought about a hardware compressor between the mic and track, but
am wondering if this is really necessary?


It's not, and even if you use one, you will probably still want to be
riding gain on mixdown to keep it from pumping too much.

could anyone provide me with the kind of settings i should be looking
for - im using cubase 2, so i can use the inbuilt VST as an example.
many thanks


Arny's favorite tool, the volume envelope, is probably the way to go if
you are not using a console and have to do it all on the workstation.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #8   Report Post  
Michael Putrino
 
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"LuKeNuKuM" wrote in message
oups.com...
hello all,

when recording a mono vocal audio track which contains a verse which is
'talking level' and then for the next part (chorus) contains shouting -
whats the best way to do this?



Luke


Another way to do it is to mult the mic into two channels on the board.
Adjust the gain for each channel to correspond to the section it is to
serve. Then, actively switch the channels on/off at the appropriate times.

Mike


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Andy Eng
 
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On 28 Jan 2005 06:54:10 -0800, "LuKeNuKuM"
wrote:

thats a neat idea :-) hmmm, now to find another similar mic!
thanks


Why similar? :-)

Was watching the Simon and Garfunkle DVD of their recent two showing
photos of the days when they would both sing and play into two
"different" mics. Probably more for ambience.

Best,
Andy
  #10   Report Post  
play_on
 
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Default

If the guy is shouting then it's going to sound different anyway, I
think unless the mics sound radically different it could be OK to use
two different ones. I'd record two separate tracks, one set for the
shouting levels, one for the quietier level.

Al

On 28 Jan 2005 06:54:10 -0800, "LuKeNuKuM"
wrote:

thats a neat idea :-) hmmm, now to find another similar mic!
thanks

Luke




  #12   Report Post  
LuKeNuKuM
 
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thanks for all the advice. after a bit of testing, i found in my case
the best solution was to do 2 takes (same mic) adjusting the gain each
time, this has given me a fairly natural sound, but also one which has
allowed me to bring the verse up and the chorus down without having all
my eggs in one basket.

i also did all the verses first, then on the second pass did the
choruses, this meant there was continuity throughout the 'song' and the
chorus yells were warmed up!

cheers all!

Luke

  #13   Report Post  
Bryson
 
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Default

Yeah, like Mike said, "with todays tools, it's easier than ever".
Set the level for the loud parts and go. Don't worry that the soft
parts aren't making huge waveforms. You can automate levels later, or
seperate the parts and normalize the soft stuff, whatever you want.
I'd surely compress the monitoring/cue/playback for the voc during
tracking though.


I used to always use two mikes and two channels for this type of
thing, but not as much now "with todays tools". Still, there are
occasions where the screaming parts will sound better with a different
mike/preamp/signalpath anyway.

Or not.


Peace, Love, and Peace/Love.




Mike Rivers wrote:

In article .com writes:


when recording a mono vocal audio track which contains a verse which is
'talking level' and then for the next part (chorus) contains shouting -
whats the best way to do this?

the problem is, i need to turn the gain right down on the mic to leave
enough headroom for the shout but i dont want to do the verse/chorus in
different takes - to keep the natural feeling element. this means
obviously my verse is really quiet. or if i have the gain up, i have to
stand back from the mic which means the shout isn't in-ur-face enough.



If that's the way it's sung, the way to preserve the natural feeling
is to record it that way. Allow sufficient headroom for the shouting
and then decide afterward if the verse is REALLY too quiet in relation
to the whole song.

You can always adjust levels after the recording. With today's tools,
it's easier than ever. But if you paint yourself into a corner by
letting the loud parts clip just so the meters (or waveform display)
will look good, you can't easily recover from that.


i've thought about a hardware compressor between the mic and track, but
am wondering if this is really necessary?



Sure, it's possible, and it's frequently done, but you have to listen
to what it's doing and make a judgement in real time on something that
you might have difficulty undoing later on. For instance, a compressor
that's not properly has a tendency to "breathe" when the gain comes up
to normal (not reduced) level in the transitions between the loud and
quiet parts, and this may be distracting. If you record that, it's
difficult to get rid of it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

  #15   Report Post  
WillStG
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Bryson wrote:
Yeah, like Mike said, "with todays tools, it's easier than ever".
Set the level for the loud parts and go. Don't worry that the soft
parts aren't making huge waveforms. You can automate levels later, or


seperate the parts and normalize the soft stuff, whatever you want.
I'd surely compress the monitoring/cue/playback for the voc during
tracking though.


I used to always use two mikes and two channels for this type of
thing, but not as much now "with todays tools". Still, there are
occasions where the screaming parts will sound better with a

different
mike/preamp/signalpath anyway.

Or not.


This is one of the great things about 24 bit recording, you *don't*
have to push your digital levels hard to get it to sound good. But it
is worth mentioning that a vocalist should learn to work the mic a bit,
they should turn their head or pull back off a bit when they hit the
loud parts to match the songs dynamics, and I developed the habit
somewhere along the way of riding a vocalist's fader send
(precompressor) just a bit when thay are doing that kind of thing, to
help them out some when they don't know how to do that.

Of course YMMV.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio / Fox News Channel / M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits



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Tracy Wintermute
 
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On 31 Jan 2005 01:27:26 -0800, "LuKeNuKuM"
wrote:

thanks for all the advice. after a bit of testing, i found in my case
the best solution was to do 2 takes (same mic) adjusting the gain each
time, this has given me a fairly natural sound, but also one which has
allowed me to bring the verse up and the chorus down without having all
my eggs in one basket.

i also did all the verses first, then on the second pass did the
choruses, this meant there was continuity throughout the 'song' and the
chorus yells were warmed up!

cheers all!

Luke


Thanks for the report. I always appreciate the "I tried this, and this
is what happened" posts. Beats the heck out of the "try this, I think
this is what will happen" posts.


====================
Tracy Wintermute

Rushcreek Ranch
====================
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