[dwgriffi]

It has developed that many people go to concerts for reasons other
than the music, and the concerts have responded in kind, same as
sporting events would go half empty if they relied on only people who
pay attention to sports. They go for the same reason they go to a
circus or a pro wrestling show, to get away and get stimulated for a
while, be with friends while some crazy thing is going on.

The little details about the music isn't the selling point of the
shows for them, and it doesn't matter if they don't receive them
through the din. For better or worse it's sometimes just an
opportunity for a good time, forced psuedo excitement via the uber
volume notwithstanding.

[Ron[_11_]]

FatBoySlimFast wrote:
This is a marvelous piece of technical satire. It isn't only Nigel who's
ignorant. Most people don't understand what an amplifier actually
does, or
what happens when you turn the gain control.

Yes - at our last gig there was another guy there using the same powered
subs as us. He asked before the gig where I usually set the gain control
on the sub. The answer was 12 o'clock.

Then, after we've finished our set, he comes running over and says "I've
got my 'volume' control set at zero and the limiter light is still
flashing all the time!"

5 points to the first person who can tell me this guy's occupation ...

Would he be one of those new fangled Disk Jockey fellows by any chance?

Ron

[Ron[_11_]]

Peter Larsen wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Hmm... I would say that it's the drummer who defines the balance....
everything else is bringing the levels up to match with the drums.

Depends on the size of the venue I reckon.

Surely there are so many factors, ever gig is different. I`ve done gigs
where the drums need a lot of reinforcement, yet the same kit with a
different player was far too loud - Only last night at a tech rehearsal,
the drummers kit was so unbalanced between the (expensive) snare and the
rest of the (cheap) kit, that no amount of damping was sufficient to get
the snare in balance with the rest of the band. The temptation is to
drag everyone else up to the drummers level, and that`s when it all
starts to get out of control. Plus, once it gets above a certain volume,
you can`t hear the choir anymore

One 'enthusiastic' guitarist can wreck the whole band, likewise a bass
player, and some rooms don't lend themselves to loud, some don't work if
it`s too soft.

It should be the band leader's job to control the individual dynamics,
sadly that`s often not the case.

It`s all part of the balancing act we do every day/night



In many jazz contexts it would help greatly if more drummers used practice
kits rather than full kits, I have heard and recorded - with a pair - such
an ensemble, Peter Nissens New Orleans Jazz band or whatever they would call
themselves. Unfortunately the content of their van got stolen after a
concert and the very nice practice kit was lost and he didn't get another
one, there is quiote probably not that much money in that niche or he didn't
want the risk.

I find that in general, proper jazz drummers are the best to deal with,
they have, by the very nature of the music, a better understanding of
dynamics.

Light and shade, dear boy, light and shade (annon)


PS at the risk of thread drift.

Have you ever noticed how when a drummer turns up with a quirky looking
kit, made up of a multicoloured assortment of various tatty ancient
drums and cymbals often from different manufacturers, you can usually be
sure that he`s going to be a really excellent player with wonderful
control and a bit of a character to boot.
However, when it`s a brand new looking all matching expensive kit with
matching fluffy cases...

Ron - Preaching to the choir

[mcdonaldREMOVE TO ACTUALLY REACH [email protected]]

Phildo wrote:
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
All very well but 99% of users don't set it to anything
less than is needed to drown out the rest of the world.
Simply walking down the street, listening to some Lieder, can require
cranking the gain all the way up.

Why not just shove screwdrivers into your ears if you want to damage your
hearing?


You misunderstand his point. He is talking CLASSICAL MUSIC that is actually
present on the CD or MP3 at a level of -20 to -30 dB, at least most of the time.


You really DO have to turn the iPod volume all the way up if you
want to hear the music at all. Not loud, not over traffic noise,
just hear the music and follow the tune.

Doug McDonald

[Don P]

cjt wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:

FatBoySlimFast wrote:

Then, after we've finished our set, he comes running over and says
"I've got my 'volume' control set at zero and the limiter light is
still flashing all the time!"

5 points to the first person who can tell me this guy's occupation ...


Why, live sound engineer, of course.

You need to put "engineer" in quotes if you're going to abuse it like that.


Isn't an "engineer" the guy who drives a train?

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

"Don P" wrote in message
...
cjt wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:

FatBoySlimFast wrote:

Then, after we've finished our set, he comes running over and says
"I've got my 'volume' control set at zero and the limiter light is
still flashing all the time!"

5 points to the first person who can tell me this guy's occupation ...


Why, live sound engineer, of course.

You need to put "engineer" in quotes if you're going to abuse it like
that.


Isn't an "engineer" the guy who drives a train?

He is also the guy who drove the train wreck
George

[Scott Dorsey]

Then, after we've finished our set, he comes running over and says "I've
got my 'volume' control set at zero and the limiter light is still
flashing all the time!"

5 points to the first person who can tell me this guy's occupation ...

US Director of Homeland Security.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[William Sommerwerck]

Then, after we've finished our set, he comes running over and
says "I've got my 'volume' control set at zero and the limiter
light is still flashing all the time!"

A few years ago I remarked that no profession was so full of people who
lacked any real technical understanding of it as recording engineers.

My opinion has not changed.

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
Then, after we've finished our set, he comes running over and
says "I've got my 'volume' control set at zero and the limiter
light is still flashing all the time!"

A few years ago I remarked that no profession was so full of people who
lacked any real technical understanding of it as recording engineers.

My opinion has not changed.

It appears that corporate finance is just as bad. And I can attest that
the computer world is now in a similar situation.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Then, after we've finished our set, he comes running over and says
"I've got my 'volume' control set at zero and the limiter light is
still flashing all the time!"

5 points to the first person who can tell me this guy's occupation
...

US Director of Homeland Security.

A good thing I wasn't sipping coffee ...

--scott

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[FatBoySlimFast]

"Ron" wrote in message
...
FatBoySlimFast wrote:
5 points to the first person who can tell me this guy's occupation ...

Would he be one of those new fangled Disk Jockey fellows by any chance?

Bingo. We have a winner.
Please accept your 5 points.
If and when our paths cross you can trade these in for beer tokens!

Cheers,
Steve W

[Arkansan Raider]

Les Cargill wrote:
Dave wrote:
On Jul 21, 8:34 pm, Rupert wrote:
highest setting of eleven, he responds, "These go to eleven"....
"Why not have it still go to 10 but have 10 be louder?"

Rupert

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the
board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see,
most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all
the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your
guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra
push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the
top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

It's been upgraded:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwuZePiQHLI

--
Les Cargill

That's incredibly funny.

(paraphrased)

It goes to twenty, but I envision music requiring thirty. Purely
volume-based. No notes or chords.

---Jeff

[Arkansan Raider]

thepaulthomas wrote:

Sometimes
the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB,
which is just downright crazy.

Oh, how I love in-ears.

You're absolutely right.

---Jeff

[Infiniti Sound]

On Jul 22, 12:35*pm, thepaulthomas
wrote:
And yet whenever I go to a local bar gig for
under 300 people I am encountering levels well over 100dB. Sometimes
the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB,
which is just downright crazy.

What people do not realize is that the 100db is now your starting
point for the mix volume. You can't have the balanced FOH mix softer
than the loudest thing on stage.

[Ron[_11_]]

Arkansan Raider wrote:
thepaulthomas wrote:

Sometimes
the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB,
which is just downright crazy.

Oh, how I love in-ears.

You're absolutely right.

---Jeff


One of the unfortunate side effects of in-ears can be that bands tend to
play louder. I`ve witnessed this on several occasions now, and when I
tell the band that they are playing far too loud on stage, they are
generally amazed.

Ron(UK)

[Les Cargill]

Infiniti Sound wrote:
On Jul 22, 12:35 pm, thepaulthomas
wrote:
And yet whenever I go to a local bar gig for
under 300 people I am encountering levels well over 100dB. Sometimes
the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB,
which is just downright crazy.

What people do not realize is that the 100db is now your starting
point for the mix volume. You can't have the balanced FOH mix softer
than the loudest thing on stage.



The Eminence Ragin' Cajun is a 100 db @ 1-W-M speakers. Add
18 watts from what is considered a small guitar amp, and
you get 112.5 dB - at one meter.

R squared puts the mean safe distance at 4 meters for
100 dB again.

A Fender Deluxe Reverb is a roughly 18 watt combo amp from
the '50s. It's not considered a large amp, and it is
capable of generating an over-100-dB soundfield for about
100+ square feet.

So it's hard to say this is a new phenomenon.

--
Les Cargill

[Arkansan Raider]

Ron wrote:
Arkansan Raider wrote:
thepaulthomas wrote:

Sometimes
the bar band's will have a stage volume that alone is over 100dB,
which is just downright crazy.

Oh, how I love in-ears.

You're absolutely right.

---Jeff


One of the unfortunate side effects of in-ears can be that bands tend to
play louder. I`ve witnessed this on several occasions now, and when I
tell the band that they are playing far too loud on stage, they are
generally amazed.

Ron(UK)

That's a question I'll have to ask our live sound engineer about. I sing
with an acappella group, so onstage sound levels have never been all
that high--but I wonder if it changes the mix from his perspective.

I *have* sung in a rock band environment, and you're right about the
100db thing--it's ridiculous. I don't do it often enough to know about
playing louder with in-ears, though. That's pretty wild.

---Jeff

[Richard Crowley]

mcdonald wrote ...
You misunderstand his point. He is talking CLASSICAL MUSIC that is
actually
present on the CD or MP3 at a level of -20 to -30 dB, at least most of the
time.

You really DO have to turn the iPod volume all the way up if you
want to hear the music at all. Not loud, not over traffic noise,
just hear the music and follow the tune.

Which is why I frequently commit the indiscression of normalizing
classical music MP3s to a much tighter range of peaks (per the
character of each track) than would be proper for a well-mastered CD.

[liquidator[_2_]]

"FatBoySlimFast" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Ron" wrote in message
...
FatBoySlimFast wrote:
5 points to the first person who can tell me this guy's occupation ...

Would he be one of those new fangled Disk Jockey fellows by any chance?

Bingo. We have a winner.
Please accept your 5 points.
If and when our paths cross you can trade these in for beer tokens!

Cheers,
Steve W

Hey can I get in on this? I'll buy the first round....

Beck's Dark for me...

[liquidator[_2_]]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
William Sommerwerck wrote:
Then, after we've finished our set, he comes running over and
says "I've got my 'volume' control set at zero and the limiter
light is still flashing all the time!"

A few years ago I remarked that no profession was so full of people who
lacked any real technical understanding of it as recording engineers.

My opinion has not changed.

It appears that corporate finance is just as bad. And I can attest that
the computer world is now in a similar situation.
--scott


Yup.

Tried to talk to a supposed computer tech the other day, decided to just
take the thing back home and do it myself.

They crank out these guys with A+ certifications who don't understand
anything.

[Richard Crowley]

"liquidator" wrote ...
Tried to talk to a supposed computer tech the other day, decided to just
take the thing back home and do it myself.

They crank out these guys with A+ certifications who don't understand
anything.

We wouldn't want the idiots to suffer from the low self-esteem that
would result from being flunked out of computer repair school.
Somewhere along the line here we switched from ensuring equal
opportunity to ensuring equal outcome.

[Mike Rivers]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

A few years ago I remarked that no profession was so full of people who
lacked any real technical understanding of it as recording engineers.

Naw, we had incompetent live sound engineers long before we had incompetent
recording engineers. Today anyone can buy $300 (or $30,000) worth of
gear and
software and call himself a recording engineer, but that wasn't true 20
years ago.
But 20 years ago, a band could buy $10,000 worth of sound gear and the bass
player who wasn't good enough yet to play in the band could find the
power switch
and call himself a live sound engineer.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Mike Rivers]

Ron wrote:

One of the unfortunate side effects of in-ears can be that bands tend to
play louder. I`ve witnessed this on several occasions now, and when I
tell the band that they are playing far too loud on stage, they are
generally amazed.

I wonder why that is. When I go around the NAMM show wearing ear
plugs and try to talk to people, they all tell me to speak louder.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Richard Crowley]

"Mike Rivers" wrote...
Ron wrote:
One of the unfortunate side effects of in-ears can be that bands tend to
play louder. I`ve witnessed this on several occasions now, and when I
tell the band that they are playing far too loud on stage, they are
generally amazed.

I wonder why that is. When I go around the NAMM show wearing ear
plugs and try to talk to people, they all tell me to speak louder.

They're all deaf (from not wearing ear plugs like you)! :-)

[Paul P[_3_]]

liquidator wrote:

Tried to talk to a supposed computer tech the other day, decided to just
take the thing back home and do it myself.

They crank out these guys with A+ certifications who don't understand
anything.

The same with plumbers :-) I had to replace the elements in my
water heater the other day and, after R'ingTFM had to explain to
the guy behind the counter selling them that there were two
different elements and not two of the same like he wanted to sell
me. He wouldn't believe me.

A lot of people get ripped off along the way having to trust
these people who have no idea what they're doing.

Paul P

[Ron[_11_]]

Arkansan Raider wrote:
Ron wrote:

One of the unfortunate side effects of in-ears can be that bands tend
to play louder. I`ve witnessed this on several occasions now, and
when I tell the band that they are playing far too loud on stage,
they are generally amazed.

Ron(UK)

That's a question I'll have to ask our live sound engineer about. I sing
with an acappella group, so onstage sound levels have never been all
that high--but I wonder if it changes the mix from his perspective.

I would expect for an acappella group, the vocal levels on stage may
well be actually quieter due to the phenomenon of many vocalists singing
quieter when they can hear a lot of themselves in the monitors.
It`s really guitarists who crank up the volume on stage and bleed just
what they want into the in-ears. I guess it`s like playing with your
fingers in your ears.
I still see guitarists playing wearing earplugs!
A couple of weeks ago I worked with a drummer who wore headphones - not
plugged into anything you understand, just as ear defenders. He wanted
huge amounts of _everything_ in his drum wedge.


Ron

I *have* sung in a rock band environment, and you're right about the
100db thing--it's ridiculous. I don't do it often enough to know about
playing louder with in-ears, though. That's pretty wild.

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:58:35 +0100, Ron
wrote:

I would expect for an acappella group, the vocal levels on stage may
well be actually quieter due to the phenomenon of many vocalists singing
quieter when they can hear a lot of themselves in the monitors.

Hardly a phenomenon. Just musicians acting like musicians. They
balance to what they hear.

I say to sound operators "If I'm too loud, don't turn me down, just
put more me in my monitor. Then I'll naturally play softer to
maintain the balance." It's sad how many of them find this a novel
concept.

[Ron[_11_]]

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:58:35 +0100, Ron
wrote:

I would expect for an acappella group, the vocal levels on stage may
well be actually quieter due to the phenomenon of many vocalists singing
quieter when they can hear a lot of themselves in the monitors.

Hardly a phenomenon. Just musicians acting like musicians. They
balance to what they hear.

I say to sound operators "If I'm too loud, don't turn me down, just
put more me in my monitor. Then I'll naturally play softer to
maintain the balance." It's sad how many of them find this a novel
concept.

In contrast to the guitarists who turn their instrument down to tune,
then fail to turn back up to the same level then point at the wedge
asking for more guitar in the monitor. Then, next time they tune up,
they turn the guitar up more than it was, and 'grimacing' point at the
wedge and ask for it to go down!

I tell them to set their own monitor volume by using the controls on the
instrument, but often this seems like a novel concept to them - And we
are talking about quite well known professionals here, not bar room heroes.

Ron

[George's Pro Sound Co.]

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:58:35 +0100, Ron
wrote:

I would expect for an acappella group, the vocal levels on stage may
well be actually quieter due to the phenomenon of many vocalists singing
quieter when they can hear a lot of themselves in the monitors.

Hardly a phenomenon. Just musicians acting like musicians. They
balance to what they hear.

I say to sound operators "If I'm too loud, don't turn me down, just
put more me in my monitor. Then I'll naturally play softer to
maintain the balance." It's sad how many of them find this a novel
concept.

and it works about 1 out of 100 times
more in the monitor just feeds the volume war
as often as I can make it so, I mix monitors with ONLY vocals I also do not
give individual mixes to support acts
when they understand more keys means the rest of the stage has to be
punished with the same obnoxious level, they keep to a more rasonable
approach so the other musos don't start beating on him

Band, get your sound on stage from your back line, I will add vocals and
things without backline support into the monitors

works the charm, fast reliable effective and most of all give both the band
and the sound op some level of control
George

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:07:04 -0400, "George's Pro Sound Co."
wrote:


"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:58:35 +0100, Ron
wrote:

I would expect for an acappella group, the vocal levels on stage may
well be actually quieter due to the phenomenon of many vocalists singing
quieter when they can hear a lot of themselves in the monitors.

Hardly a phenomenon. Just musicians acting like musicians. They
balance to what they hear.

I say to sound operators "If I'm too loud, don't turn me down, just
put more me in my monitor. Then I'll naturally play softer to
maintain the balance." It's sad how many of them find this a novel
concept.

and it works about 1 out of 100 times
more in the monitor just feeds the volume war
as often as I can make it so, I mix monitors with ONLY vocals I also do not
give individual mixes to support acts
when they understand more keys means the rest of the stage has to be
punished with the same obnoxious level, they keep to a more rasonable
approach so the other musos don't start beating on him

Band, get your sound on stage from your back line, I will add vocals and
things without backline support into the monitors

works the charm, fast reliable effective and most of all give both the band
and the sound op some level of control
George


So set up all the stage monitors so that the band are completely happy
with the balance. Once that is done, leave it alone. Finally set up
the house mix so the audience hears the right balance. That should be
a recipe for a productive sound check.

d

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:26:37 -0400, "George's Pro Sound Co."
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4a6a9736.353976140@localhost...
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:07:04 -0400, "George's Pro Sound Co."
wrote:


"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
news On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:58:35 +0100, Ron
wrote:

I would expect for an acappella group, the vocal levels on stage may
well be actually quieter due to the phenomenon of many vocalists singing
quieter when they can hear a lot of themselves in the monitors.

Hardly a phenomenon. Just musicians acting like musicians. They
balance to what they hear.

I say to sound operators "If I'm too loud, don't turn me down, just
put more me in my monitor. Then I'll naturally play softer to
maintain the balance." It's sad how many of them find this a novel
concept.

and it works about 1 out of 100 times
more in the monitor just feeds the volume war
as often as I can make it so, I mix monitors with ONLY vocals I also do
not
give individual mixes to support acts
when they understand more keys means the rest of the stage has to be
punished with the same obnoxious level, they keep to a more rasonable
approach so the other musos don't start beating on him

Band, get your sound on stage from your back line, I will add vocals and
things without backline support into the monitors

works the charm, fast reliable effective and most of all give both the
band
and the sound op some level of control
George


So set up all the stage monitors so that the band are completely happy
with the balance. Once that is done, leave it alone. Finally set up
the house mix so the audience hears the right balance. That should be
a recipe for a productive sound check.

d

most support acts have no ida what they want in the monitor and it takes
about a 1/2 hour to do 4 mixes with musos that can't tell the monitor
engineer what they need and at what level
I NEVER have a 1/2 hour to get a band on stage, normal is 3 to 4 minutes,
you can not do a 4 mix player by player set up esp mixing monitors from
house in that time
I will have 14 acts across my stage today in 6 hours
they will get a dfault even vocal blend and I will add in what ever does not
have backline support, as thy are already performing
I MUST keep the schedule, actually the schedule is more important than
making the band happy, the end of the show is a hard time limit, and I have
been scheduled NO TIME between acts

George


Oh, THOSE sort of shows - my sympathy. The last one I attended was
Jeff Beck at the Albert Hall. Everything very leisurely and plenty of
setup time for just his band and one support.

d

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:07:04 -0400, "George's Pro Sound Co."
wrote:

I would expect for an acappella group, the vocal levels on stage may
well be actually quieter due to the phenomenon of many vocalists singing
quieter when they can hear a lot of themselves in the monitors.

Hardly a phenomenon. Just musicians acting like musicians. They
balance to what they hear.

I say to sound operators "If I'm too loud, don't turn me down, just
put more me in my monitor. Then I'll naturally play softer to
maintain the balance." It's sad how many of them find this a novel
concept.

and it works about 1 out of 100 times
more in the monitor just feeds the volume war
as often as I can make it so, I mix monitors with ONLY vocals I also do not
give individual mixes to support acts
when they understand more keys means the rest of the stage has to be
punished with the same obnoxious level, they keep to a more rasonable
approach so the other musos don't start beating on him

Band, get your sound on stage from your back line, I will add vocals and
things without backline support into the monitors

works the charm, fast reliable effective and most of all give both the band
and the sound op some level of control

You're talking about a different situation. I'm MD/keyboards in a
theatre setup. There is no "back line". All I hear is direct sound
plus my monitor. I modify my volume to give a musical balance
according to what I hear. How could I not? If a trusted sound
operator wants to trick me into playing a bit louder, the best way is
to reduce keyboard level in my monitor. But probably what he SHOULD
be doing is turning everything else down a bit :-)

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:26:37 -0400, "George's Pro Sound Co."
wrote:

most support acts have no ida what they want in the monitor and it takes
about a 1/2 hour to do 4 mixes with musos that can't tell the monitor
engineer what they need and at what level
I NEVER have a 1/2 hour to get a band on stage, normal is 3 to 4 minutes,
you can not do a 4 mix player by player set up esp mixing monitors from
house in that time
I will have 14 acts across my stage today in 6 hours
they will get a dfault even vocal blend and I will add in what ever does not
have backline support, as thy are already performing
I MUST keep the schedule, actually the schedule is more important than
making the band happy, the end of the show is a hard time limit, and I have
been scheduled NO TIME between acts

Well, it's a living I suppose :-)

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Paul P wrote:

The same with plumbers :-) I had to replace the elements in my
water heater the other day and, after R'ingTFM had to explain to
the guy behind the counter selling them that there were two
different elements and not two of the same like he wanted to sell
me. He wouldn't believe me.

He was not a plumber, he was a sales guy. Last week he was selling
furniture. Next week he'll be selling studio monitor speakers. He
doesn't know anything about furniture, plumbing, or studio monitors.
He knows about sales.

A lot of people get ripped off along the way having to trust
these people who have no idea what they're doing.

Salespeople don't have your best interests at heart, usually. People who
think they do invariably wind up on the bad end of things.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arkansan Raider]

Ron wrote:
Arkansan Raider wrote:
Ron wrote:

One of the unfortunate side effects of in-ears can be that bands tend
to play louder. I`ve witnessed this on several occasions now, and
when I tell the band that they are playing far too loud on stage,
they are generally amazed.

Ron(UK)

That's a question I'll have to ask our live sound engineer about. I
sing with an acappella group, so onstage sound levels have never been
all that high--but I wonder if it changes the mix from his perspective.

I would expect for an acappella group, the vocal levels on stage may
well be actually quieter due to the phenomenon of many vocalists singing
quieter when they can hear a lot of themselves in the monitors.

That makes sense. I've noticed a lot less over-singing. It's not usually
a problem for me, as I sing bass and *have to be* relaxed. I'm also
usually bumped up in the mix, since folks like their bass sounds.
Another thing is that, even if the IEM mix isn't right, I can turn down
the entire mix and hear myself through my skull structure.

One of the things I had to do when we had wedges was to put a foam
earplug in one ear so's I didn't have to have my hand to my face all
night if the mix was bad.

It`s really guitarists who crank up the volume on stage and bleed just
what they want into the in-ears. I guess it`s like playing with your
fingers in your ears.
I still see guitarists playing wearing earplugs!
A couple of weeks ago I worked with a drummer who wore headphones - not
plugged into anything you understand, just as ear defenders. He wanted
huge amounts of _everything_ in his drum wedge.


Ron

Ugh. No thanks. I've enough hearing loss from factory work a few years
back. Don't need any more of that.

You're not filling me with a lot of confidence in stepping back out into
the rock band arena. I knew it was bad--from my limited experience--but
that's *really* bad.

---Jeff

[mcdonaldREMOVE TO ACTUALLY REACH [email protected]]

Richard Crowley wrote:
mcdonald wrote ...
You misunderstand his point. He is talking CLASSICAL MUSIC that is
actually
present on the CD or MP3 at a level of -20 to -30 dB, at least most of the
time.

You really DO have to turn the iPod volume all the way up if you
want to hear the music at all. Not loud, not over traffic noise,
just hear the music and follow the tune.

Which is why I frequently commit the indiscression of normalizing
classical music MP3s to a much tighter range of peaks (per the
character of each track) than would be proper for a well-mastered CD.



When making MP3s from CDs, I do judiciously compress, generally to
a point where the level is less than -26 dB no more than 5% of the time.
I generally don't do this for MP3s from the internet, as it would require
using a higher bitrate to avoid quality loss, but I do if they are
hopelessly off. I also renormalize the level as a whole and over tracks ...
but on multitrack single works, I normalize the level for individual
tracks by 1/2 the distance in dB down from the loudes one, rather than
making all tracks the same max level.

I use a custom written computer program for this, which has a symmetrical
rise and fall time, which is typically set at 2 dB/sec. This is NOT
the usual "tamp the level down very very fast, let it rise slow" method.


Doug McDonald

[Richard Webb[_2_]]

On Thu 2037-Jul-23 20:14, Mike Rivers (1:3634/1000) wrote to All:

A few years ago I remarked that no profession was so full of people who
lacked any real technical understanding of it as recording engineers.

MR Naw, we had incompetent live sound engineers long before we had
MR incompetent recording engineers. Today anyone can buy $300 (or
MR $30,000) worth of gear and
MR software and call himself a recording engineer, but that wasn't true
MR 20 years ago.

Recording engineers, back when the gear was made by STudor,
MCI etc. did their own maintenance, and oftentimes their own customization. Gear lasted 10-20 years with proper care
instead of this throw it away software based stuff, five
years it's obsolete. IF you didn't know the tech stuff you
hired somebody you did, and learned from him/her.

MR But 20 years ago, a band could buy $10,000 worth of sound gear and
MR the bass player who wasn't good enough yet to play in the band could
MR find the power switch
MR and call himself a live sound engineer.

And the evidence, the smiley face graphic eq curve.


Regards,
Richard
--
| Fidonet: Richard Webb 1:116/901
| Internet:
| \\--- Pull YourHead out to reply via email. ---//
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Sit

[dwgriffi]

On Jul 24, 11:48*am, "mcdonaldREMOVE TO ACTUALLY REACH
wrote:

When making MP3s from CDs, I do judiciously compress, generally to
a point where the level is less than -26 dB no more than 5% of the time.
I generally don't do this for MP3s from the internet, as it would require
using a higher bitrate to avoid quality loss, but I do if they are
hopelessly off. I also renormalize the level as a whole and over tracks ....
but on multitrack single works, I normalize the level for individual
tracks by 1/2 the distance in dB down from the loudes one, rather than
making all tracks the same max level.

I use a custom written computer program for this, which has a symmetrical
rise and fall time, which is typically set at 2 dB/sec. This is NOT
the usual "tamp the level down very very fast, let it rise slow" method.


Wow. When I want something in my mp3 player,,,I pop it in. : )

[mcdonaldREMOVE TO ACTUALLY REACH [email protected]]

dwgriffi wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:48 am, "mcdonaldREMOVE TO ACTUALLY REACH
wrote:

When making MP3s from CDs, I do judiciously compress, generally to
a point where the level is less than -26 dB no more than 5% of the time.
I generally don't do this for MP3s from the internet, as it would require
using a higher bitrate to avoid quality loss, but I do if they are
hopelessly off. I also renormalize the level as a whole and over tracks ...
but on multitrack single works, I normalize the level for individual
tracks by 1/2 the distance in dB down from the loudes one, rather than
making all tracks the same max level.

I use a custom written computer program for this, which has a symmetrical
rise and fall time, which is typically set at 2 dB/sec. This is NOT
the usual "tamp the level down very very fast, let it rise slow" method.


Wow. When I want something in my mp3 player,,,I pop it in. : )

Then what happens when the program level is -30 dB and loud trucks are
passing by as you walk along the street? Even full up you can't
hear anything at all.

Doug McDonald

[liquidator[_2_]]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul P wrote:

The same with plumbers :-) I had to replace the elements in my
water heater the other day and, after R'ingTFM had to explain to
the guy behind the counter selling them that there were two
different elements and not two of the same like he wanted to sell
me. He wouldn't believe me.

He was not a plumber, he was a sales guy. Last week he was selling
furniture. Next week he'll be selling studio monitor speakers. He
doesn't know anything about furniture, plumbing, or studio monitors.
He knows about sales.

A lot of people get ripped off along the way having to trust
these people who have no idea what they're doing.

Salespeople don't have your best interests at heart, usually. People who
think they do invariably wind up on the bad end of things.
--scott


Well said...I worked sales for most of the 80's...I offered tech help to the
other salesguys, and most guys felt they had no use for it.

If you do find a salesperson who cares, treat him/her well. They are a
dying breed.