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#201
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LEDs as lamp replacements
In article ,
Don Pearce wrote: On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:58:56 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: I once bought a "daylight" bulb with a bright blue tint, thinking it would be better than normal bulbs. It was back in its box within a day. Lower colour temperatures are now what we consider right for the evening. The same goes for any indoor lighting - approaches to daylight for indoor lighting are always received poorly. I have daylight fluorescent lighting in my home workshop which also has a degree of natural lighting. Wouldn't have any other. Workshops are a different thing - they aren't really a domestic environment. Mine is. ;-) It is really a bedroom. And when mixed with natural daylight, I can see the point. Quite. Good domestic lighting supplements or replaces that provided by god. ;-) -- *Xerox and Wurlitzer will merge to market reproductive organs. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#202
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
In article , Mr.T wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... 4500K is still somewhat blue for most peoples' taste. You must really hate daylight then! Most domestic lighting is used after dark and the colour temperature last thing in the day is nothing like 4500k. By that reasoning you should really match the color temperature of moonlight, which is greater than 4500K. Moonlight's color temperature at its highest is about 4000. It is usually even less. It is less than that of sunlight because the moon is not white or gray, but brownish. Meanwhile, at illumination level so low that color vision does not work well, color temperature matters less. At illumination levels an order of magnitude or two or three above that of moonlight, most people like it warm (lower color temperature). - Don Klipstein ) |
#203
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
In article , Mr.T wrote:
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... approaches to daylight for indoor lighting are always received poorly. No argument there, people ARE conditioned to incandescent lights at night, at the moment. (which of course are not so different to the lamps and candles that came before.) I wonder whether that will be so a hundred years from now though, when very few people will even remember seeing one. Whether we will always demand to emulate what we now have, or whether we will accept a gradual change to something else, IF it is more efficient. And of course the eyes sensitivity is not it's highest at the red end either. Lumens per watt of the portion of blackbody radiation that is in the 400-700 nm range is maximized in the upper 3,000's at about 263 lumens per visible radiated watt. Apparently, getting into the 5,000's K causes blue content to increase faster than red content decreases, decreasing the percentage of the visible light spectral content that is in the yellow-green range. This figure is down about 1% at around 3300 and around 4600 K. There is a lot of freedom in color temperature of a whitish artificial light source without compromising luminous efficacy much. - Don Klipstein ) |
#204
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
In article , Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Mr.T MrT@home wrote: No argument there, people ARE conditioned to incandescent lights at night, at the moment. (which of course are not so different to the lamps and candles that came before.) You've never seen gaslight, then? Correlated color temperature generally mid 3,000's, and sometimes looks a bit cold and spookyish. It's also a bit greener than light from a blackbody, but usually looks only slightly so in my experience. - Don Klipstein ) |
#205
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
In article , Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Have you never wondered why most prefer the colour temperature of tungsten for domestic lighting? Personally, I like more like 3500K at most brighter indoor lighting levels, closer to 3,000 for dimmer indoor lighting. Higher color temperature often appears "dreary" unless illumination level is very high. People often find it "dreary" outdoors under overcast conditions with color temperature around 6000 K, especially when illumination level gets under several thousand lux. Things can look dreary at dusk and dawn, though people can be in a less dreary mood outdoors then. At dawn things are brightening, and at dusk people are likely to be on their way home from work or towards entertaining activities. As for why higher color temperature can make things "drearier" at lower illumination levels: 1. The spectrum is richer in wavelengths favorable to scotopic vision, which lacks ability to see color. Higher color temperature favors things looking grayish when illumination level is down to several lux or less. 2. More light of wavelengths favorable to scotopic vision can make your eye's pupil smaller than otherwise for a given illumination level. 100 lux at 5000 K can make your pupil smaller than 100 lux at 3000 K. (The lux and other photometric units are defined in terms of photopic vision and not scotopic vision.) That can make things appear dimmer. This can also have an effect on color vision if illumination level is down to a few lux or less, by depriving the color-sensing cones of light. 3. Reds look darker at higher color temperature, and can "drop out to black" when color temperature is high and illumination level is low enough to start making photopic vision marginal. - Don Klipstein ) |
#206
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Have you never wondered why most prefer the colour temperature of tungsten for domestic lighting? It's not tungsten we prefer, I don't think, but rather a color temperature that's close to that of a flame. That's what the human race used for artificial lighting for the very vast majority of its existence. It shouldn't be surprising that we still find it more comfy than cold lighting, at night. My warmest CFLs are now 2700 K. Not bad, but I'd still prefer a little warmer. The 4100 tube fluorescents we have are not in the least attractive. Don Pearce posted this: Nice chart here http://www.olympusmicro.com/primer/l...colortemp.html Candlelight is 2000 K 60W incadescent bulbs are about 2500 K. 100W are slightly cooler, but still well under 3000 K. Photofloods, which seem quite cool, are around 3500 K. Nor surprising that something up around 6000 K would be annoying. Bert |
#207
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
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#208
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
: Have you never wondered why most prefer the colour temperature of tungsten for domestic lighting? Familiarity, and because it embodies a kind of neat simple magic, a safe capturing of fire in an idealised form. It's a scientific form that almost everyone can grasp. It's as iconic as the wheel, it's just not been around as long. I guess the truth of 'natural daylight' emulations is that they make people feel agoraphobic if they can't withdraw from that light. Bring on LED colour mixing. Or at least a nice emulation of firelight. |
#209
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
In article , "Albert Manfredi" wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: Have you never wondered why most prefer the colour temperature of tungsten for domestic lighting? It's not tungsten we prefer, I don't think, but rather a color temperature that's close to that of a flame. That's what the human race used for artificial lighting for the very vast majority of its existence. It shouldn't be surprising that we still find it more comfy than cold lighting, at night. My warmest CFLs are now 2700 K. Not bad, but I'd still prefer a little warmer. The 4100 tube fluorescents we have are not in the least attractive. Most CFL's I have used are too orange for me. I have one of those bargain dollar store blue ones, and those suck. I bought one at The home Depot many years ago. paid $20 for a dimmable type. It ended up being the best color I have seen, in my opinion. They quit selling dimmable lamps. I hate when stores change stocks all the time, especially Wal Mart. greg Don Pearce posted this: Nice chart here http://www.olympusmicro.com/primer/l...colortemp.html Candlelight is 2000 K 60W incadescent bulbs are about 2500 K. 100W are slightly cooler, but still well under 3000 K. Photofloods, which seem quite cool, are around 3500 K. Nor surprising that something up around 6000 K would be annoying. Bert |
#210
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
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#211
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
In article ,
Albert Manfredi wrote: Have you never wondered why most prefer the colour temperature of tungsten for domestic lighting? It's not tungsten we prefer, I don't think, but rather a color temperature that's close to that of a flame. Err, isn't that what I wrote? It's the colour temperature that matters rather than the source. -- *Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#212
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:10:28 +0000 (UTC) in sci.electronics.basics,
(Don Klipstein) wrote, Personally, I like more like 3500K at most brighter indoor lighting levels, closer to 3,000 for dimmer indoor lighting. Higher color temperature often appears "dreary" unless illumination level is very high. Do you put orange gels on your windows? |
#213
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Albert Manfredi wrote: It's not tungsten we prefer, I don't think, but rather a color temperature that's close to that of a flame. Err, isn't that what I wrote? It's the colour temperature that matters rather than the source. Well, you wrote may things, including this: "Lighting which is used to replace daylight - like that most of us have at home for use when daylight fades - ideally shouldn't give such a sudden change in temperature that it is noticeable. In the same way as lighting used to supplement daylight - like in say an office - should also be an approximate match to that daylight. It's common sense, really." I do agree that if we are supplementing daylight, e.g. in work spaces with large windows during the day, rather than providing lighting at night, a cooler light (hotter temp) is probably preferable. But for night time lighting, I think what we are looking for is the color of flame. I'm saying, it's not that we are conditioned to the color of tungsen, it's that we are looking for something close to 2000 K at night. Much cooler cooler light than that (higher temp) is stark and generally unpleasant. By the way, this also applies to xenon headlights in some cars. They are superbly obnoxious at night, to other drivers. Even if they aren't brighter than halogens, the bluish color is very distracting. Fortnunately, there seem to be fewer of the really annoying ones around these days. Maybe the auto makers got too many complaints. Bert |
#214
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
In article , David Harmon wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:10:28 +0000 (UTC) in sci.electronics.basics, (Don Klipstein) wrote, Personally, I like more like 3500K at most brighter indoor lighting levels, closer to 3,000 for dimmer indoor lighting. Higher color temperature often appears "dreary" unless illumination level is very high. Do you put orange gels on your windows? No, I don't. But if the light level is neither in kilolux nevels nor a recent uptick from something lower, I find daylight to usually have no warmth or "cheer". If the ceiling is dark but the windows are bright, then things can look cheerful - sometimes - for some reason. - Don Klipstein ) |
#215
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Albert Manfredi" wrote in
: I'm saying, it's not that we are conditioned to the color of tungsen, it's that we are looking for something close to 2000 K at night. Much cooler cooler light than that (higher temp) is stark and generally unpleasant. It is conditioning, but it's worth thinking about what the conditioning is. First, how can a hotter temperature be cold?? The only way to account for that is to look at the environment. Blue sky accepts radiant heat from the earth so nights chill faster on clear evenings, pale light from the moon or stars accompanies those same conditions within hours, and those sources are so pale that we have scotopic vision to cope with them. The whole thing is based on comfort. There is one exception to the usual perception of cool faint lights. The whole midsummer night's dream idyll is based on this, the almost magical inversion that allows a warm night to make perception of these 'cold' lights seem something other than threatening to our health. I bet we could get used to 'cold' light plenty fast so long as we weren't actually cold ourselves. Conversely, Dickens and many others have commented on the bleakness of a small flame when there isn't enough heat to warm the people who need it. It really has to do with our ambient conditions, not direct colour perceptions at all. |
#216
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
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#217
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Albert Manfredi" wrote in message ... "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: Albert Manfredi wrote: It's not tungsten we prefer, I don't think, but rather a color temperature that's close to that of a flame. Err, isn't that what I wrote? It's the colour temperature that matters rather than the source. Well, you wrote may things, including this: "Lighting which is used to replace daylight - like that most of us have at home for use when daylight fades - ideally shouldn't give such a sudden change in temperature that it is noticeable. In the same way as lighting used to supplement daylight - like in say an office - should also be an approximate match to that daylight. It's common sense, really." I do agree that if we are supplementing daylight, e.g. in work spaces with large windows during the day, rather than providing lighting at night, a cooler light (hotter temp) is probably preferable. But for night time lighting, I think what we are looking for is the color of flame. I'm saying, it's not that we are conditioned to the color of tungsen, it's that we are looking for something close to 2000 K at night. Much cooler cooler light than that (higher temp) is stark and generally unpleasant. By the way, this also applies to xenon headlights in some cars. They are superbly obnoxious at night, to other drivers. Even if they aren't brighter than halogens, the bluish color is very distracting. Fortnunately, there seem to be fewer of the really annoying ones around these days. Maybe the auto makers got too many complaints. Bert Don'cha just hate the way they swing from blue through stark white to green, when they come round a bend in front or behind you ... Also, having sat behind some, the perceived ability to light the road, does not seem to be any better than halogens, which may again come down to colour temperature and the human vision comfort zone. Arfa |
#218
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... That's more to do with the relative sensitivity of film color layers etc. They are specifically balanced for Daylight or Tungsten, and are wildly innacurate when used with the wrong light source. In which way are they 'inaccurate'? They will look wrong to the eye on a 'cut' but as with real life if all shots are matched the eye will accommodate. Not so. They ARE wrong. The relative densities of the individual film layers will be quite innacurate when exposed with the wrong light. The monitor you're reading this on is unlikely to match *exactly* another one in colour temperature but will look ok to the individual. The eye compensates, as I said, as it must do given that daylight changes. Unless it has a reference to match to. Which is everything else within your field of view. Only if *everything* changes will the *brain* correctly compensate. Err, yes. That's what I said. But it doesn't react instantly. Hence it notices a sudden change in colour temperature. Like switching on 4500K lights in a house when it gets dark.;-) So a couple of minutes readjustment is abhorent to you? Doesn't bother me too much. Have you never wondered why most prefer the colour temperature of tungsten for domestic lighting? No, as I already stated it was simply conditioning from fires, candles, oil lamps and tungsten filament globes. Have you ever wondered why people aren't bothered by the change from daylight, or in fact are able to wear coloured sun glasses, but can readily pick an off balance color photo? MrT. |
#219
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message ... Moonlight's color temperature at its highest is about 4000. I haven't seen a reference for this, but even assuming it is so, it's still higher than many people here prefer it would seem. Meanwhile, at illumination level so low that color vision does not work well, color temperature matters less. At illumination levels an order of magnitude or two or three above that of moonlight, most people like it warm (lower color temperature). Which is my point. People simply prefer something, then try to introduce pseudo scientific rationalisation to claim anybody who disagrees with them is wrong. MrT. |
#220
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
In article , Mr.T wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... That's more to do with the relative sensitivity of film color layers etc. They are specifically balanced for Daylight or Tungsten, and are wildly innacurate when used with the wrong light source. In which way are they 'inaccurate'? They will look wrong to the eye on a 'cut' but as with real life if all shots are matched the eye will accommodate. Not so. They ARE wrong. The relative densities of the individual film layers will be quite innacurate when exposed with the wrong light. The monitor you're reading this on is unlikely to match *exactly* another one in colour temperature but will look ok to the individual. The eye compensates, as I said, as it must do given that daylight changes. Unless it has a reference to match to. Which is everything else within your field of view. Only if *everything* changes will the *brain* correctly compensate. Err, yes. That's what I said. But it doesn't react instantly. Hence it notices a sudden change in colour temperature. Like switching on 4500K lights in a house when it gets dark.;-) So a couple of minutes readjustment is abhorent to you? Doesn't bother me too much. Have you never wondered why most prefer the colour temperature of tungsten for domestic lighting? No, as I already stated it was simply conditioning from fires, candles, oil lamps and tungsten filament globes. Have you ever wondered why people aren't bothered by the change from daylight, or in fact are able to wear coloured sun glasses, but can readily pick an off balance color photo? An off-balance color photo has its surroundings as a color reference. It would be like having colored sunglasses coloring only a small portion of your field of vision. - Don Klipstein ) |
#221
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message ... Unless it has a reference to match to. Which is everything else within your field of view. snip An off-balance color photo has its surroundings as a color reference. Which is what I said already. That was my point. MrT. |
#222
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in
u: Moonlight's color temperature at its highest is about 4000. I haven't seen a reference for this, but even assuming it is so, it's still higher than many people here prefer it would seem. Nice way to test: Take a camera and tripod, do a long exposure shot of a moonlit scene. Then view the phtot on a monitor in a context you know. I haven't done this but I think it will bear out the claim that the moon's light is brownish, as it looks when you look directly at it. The blue comes from a combination of scattered light and scotopic sensitivity to the blue part of its spectrum. |
#223
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message In article , Albert Manfredi wrote: Have you never wondered why most prefer the colour temperature of tungsten for domestic lighting? It's not tungsten we prefer, I don't think, but rather a color temperature that's close to that of a flame. Err, isn't that what I wrote? It's the colour temperature that matters rather than the source. There many kinds of preferences. One is the preference for that which is traditional and familiar, and another is the preference for that which is most effective for the purpose at hand. I've found that if the goal is reading accurately with limited light, then higher temperatures even 5000 degrees and up, can be preferable. I've read far into many a dark fall or winter evening in a tent, using a pretty blue LED headlamp. I did some tests of people reading Bibles and hymnals which tend to small print, in a congregational setting with fairly high light levels, and found that my readers were most comfortable with color temperatures in the 3200 degree range. I suspect that preferences for color temperatures below 3200 degrees are heavily influenced by tradition and past experience. |
#224
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Arny Krueger" wrote in
: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message In article , Albert Manfredi wrote: Have you never wondered why most prefer the colour temperature of tungsten for domestic lighting? It's not tungsten we prefer, I don't think, but rather a color temperature that's close to that of a flame. Err, isn't that what I wrote? It's the colour temperature that matters rather than the source. There many kinds of preferences. One is the preference for that which is traditional and familiar, and another is the preference for that which is most effective for the purpose at hand. I've found that if the goal is reading accurately with limited light, then higher temperatures even 5000 degrees and up, can be preferable. I've read far into many a dark fall or winter evening in a tent, using a pretty blue LED headlamp. I did some tests of people reading Bibles and hymnals which tend to small print, in a congregational setting with fairly high light levels, and found that my readers were most comfortable with color temperatures in the 3200 degree range. I suspect that preferences for color temperatures below 3200 degrees are heavily influenced by tradition and past experience. Yes. Been saying similar stuff here last night. Also, quite apart from preference and convention and all that, there is a stark fact that we use shortwave light to resolve fine detail without strain. That's a basic physical fact. So it makes NO sense at all to suggest that reading is best done in a low colour temperature. Same goes for any other detailed small scale activity such as most indoor hobbies involve. The only reason we need bright incandescent to read by is that it is the ONLY way we can get enough shortwave light. I've found that so long as you have a decent continuum such as the newer Cree Xlamps have, and a tint that favours the long end, such as the WG tint, you can be comfortable with much lower lumen counts than when using low colour temperatures. This is exactly what many here said was 'dreary' or similar, but I tried it last night. I went outside to see the orange light in the clouds over the city, the many tungsten lamps all around in windows, waited till I was thoroughly adjusted, then went inside. Far from looking dreary, it was invitingly bright and easy to see things by, and this was ONE single emitter aimed at the ceiling. It had the same cosy quality that a pressurised paraffin (kerosene) lamp has in a country kitchen during a power cut. I remember that well enough, and this new light was similarly pleasing, if a little different, sharper perhaps. |
#225
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
In article ,
Mr.T MrT@home wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... That's more to do with the relative sensitivity of film color layers etc. They are specifically balanced for Daylight or Tungsten, and are wildly innacurate when used with the wrong light source. In which way are they 'inaccurate'? They will look wrong to the eye on a 'cut' but as with real life if all shots are matched the eye will accommodate. Not so. They ARE wrong. The relative densities of the individual film layers will be quite innacurate when exposed with the wrong light. You conveniently snipped the part about video. And a daylight film can also look 'wrong' when taken in daylight of the wrong colour temperature. Which can be corrected by filters when taking the pic or processing it. The monitor you're reading this on is unlikely to match *exactly* another one in colour temperature but will look ok to the individual. The eye compensates, as I said, as it must do given that daylight changes. Unless it has a reference to match to. Which is everything else within your field of view. Only if *everything* changes will the *brain* correctly compensate. Not so - do you change the colour temperature of your TV or monitor according to the ambient light? The brain focuses on the important part after time - within reason. Err, yes. That's what I said. But it doesn't react instantly. Hence it notices a sudden change in colour temperature. Like switching on 4500K lights in a house when it gets dark.;-) So a couple of minutes readjustment is abhorent to you? Doesn't bother me too much. Fine - but you're in a minority if you like cold domestic lighting. Have you never wondered why most prefer the colour temperature of tungsten for domestic lighting? No, as I already stated it was simply conditioning from fires, candles, oil lamps and tungsten filament globes. Fluorescent lights have been around for a long, long time. And early ones were all cold compared to tungsten. People could easily have got used to them for domestic light, but very few chose to. Have you ever wondered why people aren't bothered by the change from daylight, or in fact are able to wear coloured sun glasses, but can readily pick an off balance color photo? Can they? Depends on their skills. Have you never noticed how many people are happy with a TV where the grey scale is miles out? -- *Sometimes I wake up grumpy; Other times I let him sleep. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#226
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote: I suspect that preferences for color temperatures below 3200 degrees are heavily influenced by tradition and past experience. Perhaps if it were only working light. But at home it's usually comfort light. -- *Who is this General Failure chap anyway - and why is he reading my HD? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#227
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
: Have you never noticed how many people are happy with a TV where the grey scale is miles out? Actually that kind of refutes a point that many including you claim. People WERE happy for the most part with b/w TV's when that's all they had, and with colour they liked a sharp clean white and a bright vivid image, and they were happy, and they'd even fall asleep in front of them with the other lights out, at times, it's an iconic movie thing, often seen, often shared. Funny behaviour don't you think, given the high colour temperatures involved? People tell themselves they don't like stuff the way kids tell themselves they don't like their greens, or the way they tell themselves they need heavy clothes on winter days even when those days are warmer and drier than many summer ones. They even tell themselves that what they read in the newspapers must be true. Back to lights: I refer again to the point that reading and detailed indoor hobbies need shortwave light to avoid eye strain, and the only reason people turn up the tungsten is because that's the only way they actually get enough of the shortwave light they need. |
#228
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... Not so. They ARE wrong. The relative densities of the individual film layers will be quite innacurate when exposed with the wrong light. You conveniently snipped the part about video. Substitute CCD/CMOS sensor levels for cameras balanced to the wrong color temperature then. The problem is usually more acute for film however. But you do admit problems with film color are not just imagined then? The monitor you're reading this on is unlikely to match *exactly* another one in colour temperature but will look ok to the individual. The eye compensates, as I said, as it must do given that daylight changes. Unless it has a reference to match to. Which is everything else within your field of view. Only if *everything* changes will the *brain* correctly compensate. Not so - do you change the colour temperature of your TV or monitor according to the ambient light? For critical work, yes. There are even devices to do it for you automatically. Why do you think they exist? So a couple of minutes readjustment is abhorent to you? Doesn't bother me too much. Fine - but you're in a minority if you like cold domestic lighting. Never said otherwise. Have you never wondered why most prefer the colour temperature of tungsten for domestic lighting? No, as I already stated it was simply conditioning from fires, candles, oil lamps and tungsten filament globes. Fluorescent lights have been around for a long, long time. And early ones were all cold compared to tungsten. People could easily have got used to them for domestic light, but very few chose to. They chose not to, exactly what I said. MrT. |
#229
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
u... "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: Fluorescent lights have been around for a long, long time. And early ones were all cold compared to tungsten. People could easily have got used to them for domestic light, but very few chose to. They chose not to, exactly what I said. I think everyone is saying the same thing, yet there seems to be disagreement. I'd only add to this that when people predominantly "choose to" behave in a particular way, rather than in some other way, there's probably a good reason why. For example, if people "choose to" dislike food that smells like decay, there is probably a good reason why. Yes, even though there may be some individuals who actually like decaying food. There are other examples. Movies use deep bass sounds to put the audience on edge. It conveys a sense of foreboding and alarm in people. Again, one might suspect that if the reaction is close to universal, there's probably a good reason why. Not merely, "They choose to react this way. They could just as easily react a different way." Others and I have speculated the "why" people might prefer "warmer" lighting. There's nothing wrong with speculation. That's what leads to stating a hypothesis and then trying to prove it, and possibly ending up with a physical law. Bert |
#230
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Albert Manfredi" wrote in
: Others and I have speculated the "why" people might prefer "warmer" lighting. There's nothing wrong with speculation. That's what leads to stating a hypothesis and then trying to prove it, and possibly ending up with a physical law. It's a physical law that shorter wavelengths render finer detail. To read or do fine work or hobby activity we need that. People read when relaxing, and they might use low colour temperatures while doing it, but need a lot of that light to get enough shortwave light to comfortably avoid eyestrain. If they use a higher colour temperature they will find the same comfort as with lower colour temperatures, and at lesser expense. That's founded in laws of physics, anatomy, and economy. You can stick to the stated preferences for low colour temperatures to try to assert that there might be a law that somehow contrdicts all these, but such effort doesn't seem very likely to succeed. |
#231
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Albert Manfredi" wrote in message ... I think everyone is saying the same thing, yet there seems to be disagreement. I'd only add to this that when people predominantly "choose to" behave in a particular way, rather than in some other way, there's probably a good reason why. Sure, what that reason is, and even how rational it is, may be open to debate. Mostly people choose what is readily available at an affordable price. The manufacturers/marketing people have as much to do with this as any absolute superiority. And market timing plays a big part in whether something becomes widely established, and how superior something else must be to supercede it. For example, if people "choose to" dislike food that smells like decay, there is probably a good reason why. Yes, even though there may be some individuals who actually like decaying food. Yes, blue vein cheese is quite popular. Even well aged meats. There are other examples. Movies use deep bass sounds to put the audience on edge. It conveys a sense of foreboding and alarm in people. Again, one might suspect that if the reaction is close to universal, Or not, discotecques use deep pounding bass to give their customers a dance beat. Doesn't seem to drive them away there's probably a good reason why. Not merely, "They choose to react this way. They could just as easily react a different way." Exactly. Others and I have speculated the "why" people might prefer "warmer" lighting. There's nothing wrong with speculation. That's what leads to stating a hypothesis and then trying to prove it, and possibly ending up with a physical law. Or more likely just ending up with another example of the irrational behaviour patterns of humans. MrT. |
#232
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LEDs as lamp replacements
On Jul 15, 4:21 am, "Mr.T" MrT@home wrote:
Mostly people choose what is readily available at an affordable price. Universal dislike for something counts as more than just "what is readily available at an affordable price." Sorry. Or not, discotecques use deep pounding bass to give their customers a dance beat. Doesn't seem to drive them away Yes, but there's a big difference between *prolonged* bass and periodic bass, perhaps at approximately 1 Hz or so. Which is reminiscent of a heartbeat, therefore natural and presumably pleasing. Or more likely just ending up with another example of the irrational behaviour patterns of humans. I don't think it's irrational to expect humans to be put off by sources of articial light whose color temp is not what they evolved with. Defense mechanisms typically work that way, matter of fact. Anyway, this has to be one of the longest threads in usenet history (probably not, actually). Bert |
#233
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LEDs as lamp replacements
Albert Manfredi wrote in
oups.com: Universal dislike for something counts as more than just "what is readily available at an affordable price." Sorry. Damnit, will you quit that, you're annoying! I let it pass when you dismissed my argument, because it wasn't that important, you were 'only' claiming to speak for a huge populace on matters of preference, as if you had such a mighty insight into so many. Now, you claim 'universal dislike'! You're not content to settle for mere hubris, you need omniscience. Just stick to some science and let the preferences take care of themselves. |
#234
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LEDs as lamp replacements
Hmm, sorry, the dismissal came from someone else, so I shouldn't be
berating you for that. Even so, it's not appropriate to make claims for such universality. If you don't like it, say so, but don't try to claim for a universe! Most of it has ideas of its own. |
#235
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Albert Manfredi" wrote in message oups.com... Mostly people choose what is readily available at an affordable price. Universal dislike for something counts as more than just "what is readily available at an affordable price." Sorry. IF we were talking *universal* dislike then I might agree. Or more likely just ending up with another example of the irrational behaviour patterns of humans. I don't think it's irrational to expect humans to be put off by sources of articial light whose color temp is not what they evolved with. No *proof* though that artificial light MUST be different from natural light. Only the preferences of many accustomed to it being so. Defense mechanisms typically work that way, matter of fact. I'm interested to know what's the "defence mechanism" that benefits from low color temperatures? Anyway, this has to be one of the longest threads in usenet history (probably not, actually). A hell of a long way from it actually. MrT. |
#236
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LEDs as lamp replacements
Albert Manfredi wrote:
Anyway, this has to be one of the longest threads in usenet history (probably not, actually). It has to hit over 10,000 posts to even be in the running. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#237
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Albert Manfredi wrote: Anyway, this has to be one of the longest threads in usenet history (probably not, actually). It has to hit over 10,000 posts to even be in the running. Yes, he must be a "newby" I think. :-) MrT. |
#238
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Mr.T" wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Albert Manfredi wrote: Anyway, this has to be one of the longest threads in usenet history (probably not, actually). It has to hit over 10,000 posts to even be in the running. Yes, he must be a "newby" I think. :-) MrT. Just wait till he stumbles into a thread like that big one on news.sci.electronics.design . There were still over 6,000 messages on the server from the 10,000 or more. It took my news reader software three hours to mark that thread as read, because of all the cross posts. I was about ready to kill the program when it finally finished. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#239
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in
u: Defense mechanisms typically work that way, matter of fact. I'm interested to know what's the "defence mechanism" that benefits from low color temperatures? I doubt there is one. The reason prolonged bass might be unsettling is that any animal is wary of a conspicuous expenditure of energy, and that really IS about as close to a 'universal' 'preference' as we can get. Any agency that can conspicously expend energy is potentially a serious risk, either because it's a source of elemental power, or because it's aware of its power and feels no need to hide it from the world around it. The animals with a defensive relation to colour temperature are likely to be those that fear fire, or are wary of us because we have learned to use fire. That won't likely be evolution (might need an actual genetic record to establish that), but it is conditioning, adaptation. I don't think we have any imperative that makes us need low colour temperatures. We do have an imperative for warmth, and while that comes from flame it is possible to connect the two things, but as soon as we get warmth some other way, all bets are off. It's interesting to look at how other animals relate to tungsten lighting. (Crude generalisation alert!) Cats and dogs like it, rats and snakes do not. That surely shows that it really doesn't matter half as much as how they react to us. Preference for higher colour temperatures might be likely based on efficient shortwave light making things easily visible. Preference for low colour temperatures is mostly symbolic. The purely functional basis of the preference for low colour temperatures is itself symbolic, many people find 'functional' to be almost a synonym for 'bleak' or 'dreary'. Possibly because of an aversion to work (which I can understand), or more likely because having to ration energy usage implies discomfort. There's no reason it should do so though, as in this case we're talking about limiting energy expenditure by choice. That's the whole point of these new kinds of lamp. Being able to choose leaves us open to new kinds of conditioning. |
#240
Posted to rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair,sci.engr.television.advanced
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LEDs as lamp replacements
"Mr.T" wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Albert Manfredi wrote: Anyway, this has to be one of the longest threads in usenet history (probably not, actually). It has to hit over 10,000 posts to even be in the running. Yes, he must be a "newby" I think. :-) MrT. Maybe even new enough that his computer will melt down when he hits a real 10,000 post flamefest. ;-) -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
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