"Bob Cain"


** Look which psychotic, over snipping, context shifting, PITA moron pops
up now.



Phil Allison wrote:

So, the voltage gain of the whole pre-amp is likely to be no more than
unity.

IOW, an impedence converter.


** A simple auto-transformer is that.

So a totally inadequate and hence incorrect name for what lies inside most
condenser mics.



If you want to call that a pre-amp,


** No, I do not call auto-transformers "pre amps".


As I told the Brain Dead Parrott:


The industry calls them " pre-amps" - you asinine POS !!!!

What does AKG call their model 451 ??

Why do AKG et alia refer to condenser mics as having " FET pre-amps " ??

Because that is what they are.




.......... Phil

Please send your dollars today to help cure this horrible, misunderstood and
anti-social disease.

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

"Ty Ford"


** Gee - this one was slow of the mark today .





.......... Phil

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in
message


The amp in a condenser mic does not amplify the capsule's
power level -- it's a voltage amplifier.

Examples:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gwagner/u47.gif (Pentode
configured as a voltage amplifier)

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gwagner/m249.gif (Triode
configured as a voltage amplifier)

http://www.triodeel.com/u67pre.gif (Pentode configured as
a voltage amplifier)

OTOH, these amplifiers also make a dramatic change in the
microphone's ability to drive relatively low impedance loads.

Correct. You could also look at them as "impedance-matching" stages. The
output stage of most transistor amplifiers is another example of such an
impedance-matching device, except the stage is a current amplifier, not a
voltage amplifier.

Granted, the capsule _does_ deliver a micro-minuscule amount of current to
the amplifier, and the amplifier pumps a much larger current into the mixing
console's input, so you could very well compute a power gain. But it's
meaningless in terms of the way the amplifier is actually used.


By convention we often presume that the input and the output
of the amp have the same impedance (e.g., 600 ohms) whether
its true or not, and use dB to characterize the gain.

Right. Which is why you sometimes see dBv, rather than dB, to indicate we're
talking about a voltage ratio, not a power ratio.

"Phil Allison" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger"


http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gwagner/u47.gif (Pentode
configured as a voltage amplifier)

http://www.triodeel.com/u67pre.gif (Pentode configured
as a voltage amplifier)


** Actually, in both cases pentodes are wired as
triodes.


OTOH, these amplifiers also make a dramatic change in the
microphones ability to drive relatively low impedance
loads.

** Err - that would be because of the Hi-Z to Lo-Z
transformers following the tube stages.

It's likely due to both. The source impedance of a condensor
microphone capsule is in the multi-megohm range. The output
impedance of a triode is in the kilohm or 10's of kilo ohm
range.

Neumann didn't put the tube in there for their health! ;-)

These will have a primary impedance of circa 200 kohms -
so a voltage stepdown ratio of between 30 :1 and 60 :1.

I'd like to see that documented. It could be in the 10:1 to
20: 1 range.

So, the voltage gain of the whole pre-amp is likely to
be no more than unity.

I'd like to see that documented. It's gonna be low, but how
low?

"William Sommerwerck"


Granted, the capsule _does_ deliver a micro-minuscule amount of current to
the amplifier, and the amplifier pumps a much larger current into the
mixing
console's input, so you could very well compute a power gain. But it's
meaningless in terms of the way the amplifier is actually used.



** My god - so having a power gain of some 10,000,000 times is
"meaningless " to this anencephalic "Summawork" prick.



By convention we often presume that the input and the output
of the amp have the same impedance (e.g., 600 ohms) whether
its true or not, and use dB to characterize the gain.

Right. Which is why you sometimes see dBv, rather than dB, to indicate
we're
talking about a voltage ratio, not a power ratio.


** Wrong, yet again.

" dBv " alludes to a reference level.

Gain ( or loss) is expressed simply in dB.





......... Phil

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in
message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"William Sommerwerck" wrote
in message



The amp in a condenser mic does not amplify the
capsule's power level -- it's a voltage amplifier.

Examples:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gwagner/u47.gif (Pentode
configured as a voltage amplifier)

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gwagner/m249.gif (Triode
configured as a voltage amplifier)

http://www.triodeel.com/u67pre.gif (Pentode configured
as a voltage amplifier)

OTOH, these amplifiers also make a dramatic change in the
microphone's ability to drive relatively low impedance
loads.

Correct. You could also look at them as
"impedance-matching" stages. The output stage of most
transistor amplifiers is another example of such an
impedance-matching device, except the stage is a current
amplifier, not a voltage amplifier.

Granted, the capsule _does_ deliver a micro-minuscule
amount of current to the amplifier, and the amplifier
pumps a much larger current into the mixing console's
input, so you could very well compute a power gain.

The power gain is significant. I call 10, or 100 or more
*significant*.

But it's meaningless in terms of the way the amplifier is
actually used.

The significant power gain is the whole point of having the
active component present in the signal path. if there was no
power gain, a transformer alone might suffice.

In article ,
William Sommerwerck wrote:
Phil, if you're going to jump down peoples' throats, at least get your
technical act together.

The amp in a condenser mic does not amplify the capsule's power level --
it's a voltage amplifier. The capsule's capacitance is so small that it is
essentially a hi-Z voltage source that must work into a high-impedance load.

Other way around. Voltage gain on a KM84 is less than one (although a
lot of that has to do with the output transformer). Voltage gain on the
BLUE baby bottle is greater than one, though.

But it's the current gain that is so important.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Arny Krueger"
"Phil Allison"

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~gwagner/u47.gif (Pentode
configured as a voltage amplifier)

http://www.triodeel.com/u67pre.gif (Pentode configured
as a voltage amplifier)


** Actually, in both cases pentodes are wired as
triodes.



** Stunned silence duly noted - with amusement.



OTOH, these amplifiers also make a dramatic change in the
microphones ability to drive relatively low impedance
loads.

** Err - that would be because of the Hi-Z to Lo-Z
transformers following the tube stages.

It's likely due to both.


** Nope, the transformer is what makes low Z load driving possible.



The source impedance of a condensor
microphone capsule is in the multi-megohm range.


** The capsule alone is not even a microphone, just an air dielectric cap of
from 15 to 100 pF.

However, for the mic to have low noise it must see a load resistance of 0.5
to 2 Gohm.

2Gohms / 200 = 10,000,000 = power gain of 70 dB, for unity voltage
gain.


The output impedance of a triode is in the kilohm
or 10's of kilo ohm range.


** The common 12AX7 twin triode has an 80 kohms plate resistance at 100
volts.



These will have a primary impedance of circa 200 kohms -
so a voltage stepdown ratio of between 30 :1 and 60 :1.

I'd like to see that documented. It could be in the 10:1 to
20: 1 range.



** See page 4 of this pdf "Typical Operation - triode connection " .

http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/sheets/ef86/ef86_01.pdf

So, an EF 86 as used in the U67 has a voltage gain of about 27 times -
unloaded.

If the output tranny was even 100 kohms to 200 ohms, the voltage ratio is
22:1.

Allow for loading, and the gain from tube grid to output is barely gonna
make unity.



I'd like to see that documented.



** So go get one and test it - and stop being a PITA useless prick.




........... Phil

In article writes:

** That is utter bull**** - you asinine PARROT BRAINED MORON !!

This could be a regular feature of the wikipedia audio web site. Go
for it.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Phil, if you're going to jump down peoples' throats, at least get your
technical act together.

The amp in a condenser mic does not amplify the capsule's power level --
it's a voltage amplifier.

Actually, Phil does sort of have his act together on this, as usual,
but as usual, he's changed the subject so that he can argue symantics
rather than technical facts.

The electronics in a condenser mic actually takes a very high
impedance current source (several megohms) and makes it useful. It
doesn't need to amplify the voltage because there's plenty of voltage,
but it does need to provide an output from the mic's connector that's
at somewhere around the capsule's AC voltage, but at an impedance low
enough so that it can be connected to a useful load.

So, in the process of converting impedance, it's really amplifying
power, just like a power amplififer that drives a speaker from a
console line output. The input to what we in the trade conventionally
call a "power amplifier" might be 20 volts out of the console, but
from a source that can deliver relatively little power, so it can't
drive the low impedance load of a loudspeaker. The output voltage of
the power amplifier may be on the same order as the input, but because
it can drive a low impedance load, it's useful for driving a speaker.
20 volts from the console output into the amplifier's 10,000 ohm input
impedance is 0.04 watts. 20 volts into an 8 ohm loudspeaker from the
power amplifier's output is 50 watts.

The trick to the quiz is the context. "Preamplifer" is the term that
we use for a box (or functional box in a mixing console) that performs
a specific function. In the audio community, it's not a generic term.

Phil phailed, but he managed to correctly describe something
different.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Condenser mic pre-amps typically have less than unity voltage gain.

That's exactly what I said. But you didn't, until now. Most of us call
that an attenuator, not an amplfier, pre or any other kind.

What you explained correctly, on my heels, less the difference in time
zones and the fact that I sleep at night, is that the current (or, as
you so succinctly put it, power) is amplilfied.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

What does AKG call their model 451 ??

A microphone.

Why do AKG et alia refer to condenser mics as having " FET pre-amps " ??

Why are you called an asshole? You obviously haven't **** in weeks. Try
it some time. You'll feel better.

To answer your question, 40 years ago, "preamp" wasn't a common term for a
specific piece of audio equipment. Most people who knew the term thought of it
as the box that went between their turntable and hi-fi amplifier and had all the
knobs and switches on it. At the time, the term "preamp" could be legitamately
applied to any amplifier that is expected to be followed by another amplifier.

Today "preamp" has a different meaning in context, particularly to people
reading this newsgroup. Most people would misunderstand the term if it was
applied to the part that makes a condenser mic capsule able to be connected to
an amplifier with 30 to 60 dB of voltage gain.

Haven't you seen messages posted here that go sort of like "I read that a condenser
mic has a preamp, so why do I need to buy a preamp? Can I just connect it to
my sound card?" Misuse of what has become a fairly well understood term (even
if it isn't completely accurate) is the cause of this confustion. Sometimes we have
to just accept bending our language to make ourselves understood, or to avoid
being misunderstood.

The most common example of this is the use of "phase reverse" to describe
a polarity inversion. The term is accurate, but only in one family of cases.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Mike Rivers"
Phil Allison :

What does AKG call their model 451 ??

A microphone.


** Rivers is a stinking LIAR!!!


Quotes from AKG catalogue:

" CMS pre-amplifiers"

" FET pre-amplifier C415E "

" FET pre-amplifier C451 EB"

" This FET pre-amplifier is designed for universal phantom powering ( 9 -
52 volts DC) ....... "



Why do AKG et alia refer to condenser mics as having " FET pre-amps " ??

Why are you called an asshole?


** Rivers is the most pathetic, low, lying, autistic, know nothing ****
when he simply has no answer.



Most people would misunderstand the term if it was
applied to the part that makes a condenser mic capsule able to be
connected to
an amplifier with 30 to 60 dB of voltage gain.


** I do not a give *flying ***** what the technically illiterate, ASININE
PIGS who inhabit this NG think.

Particularly one Mike Rivers.



Haven't you seen messages posted here that go sort of like "I read that a
condenser
mic has a preamp, so why do I need to buy a preamp?



** Shame on you all here for throwing abbreviated names and smart sounding
jargon around carelessly and out of context.

You reap what you sow.



.............. Phil

"Mike Rivers" = scum of the planet prick
Phil Allison


Condenser mic pre-amps typically have less than unity voltage gain.

Most of us call that an attenuator,


** Who is this "us" - you parrot brained asshole ???

The sub human piles of garbage that haunt RAP and generally **** up the
whole music & recording industry ??


FYI Attenuators have power loss.

OTOH, condenser mic-preamps have power gains of the order of 10,00,000
times.






............ Phil

On 8/3/05 10:05 AM, in article znr1123066245k@trad, "Mike Rivers"
wrote:


In article writes:

What does AKG call their model 451 ??

A microphone.

Why do AKG et alia refer to condenser mics as having " FET pre-amps " ??

(SNIPPED here Mr Rivers' way-too-patient... But then that's why he has
staying power... Response to which I ask the leading question...)

Isn't the Thingie, be it a tube or FET, that follows the condensor element
actually called an impedance convertor? Or am I on another planet (again)?

"SSJVCmag"


Or am I on another planet (again)?


** Your ugly fat arse hole is not some weird, smelly, dark, hairy planet.

Put your head out and have a look some day.




........... Phil

On 8/3/05 10:33 AM, in article , "Phil
Allison" wrote:


** Rivers is a stinking LIAR!!!

(TRANSCRIPTION FORM DEPOSITION RECORDING 05-08-03R 1043 EDT)

WITNESS:
Well, I've been around Mike...uh Mister Rivers... A number of times over a
bunch of years and I don;t ever recall any sort of odor, pleasant or
otherwise... Well maybe sometimes that New-Thing smell you get when you
unwrap a new microphone or something but that wasn't Mike ... I mean Mister
Rivers... so much as the new toy we were working with so I guess that's a
different thing right? Anyway, I was pretty sure but y'know you sorta want
to be SURE when somebody's pointing a dictation recorder, a court
stenographer... Hey did I tell you my sister does that... Oh.. Sorry .. And
uh a lawyer at you so you want to be sure about what you;re going to say so
I looked in the file drawers and there was the I guess 1980 or so bunch of
AKG drool papers and brochures and sure enough, there at the top of the 451
foldout... You know the one that shows the bodies and the different capsules
and stuff that you can get like the ck8 short shotguns... I have some of
those but what I've always wanted was the bidirectional one... Can;t recall
the number but I don;t know anybody wh'os even SEEN one y'know? But anyway
there it was on the first page, they really DID call the 451 series a
'MICROPHONE' so I guess Mike... I mean Mister Rivers.. Isn;t really lieing
on this one... Not that I've ever known him to lie about anything really and
like I said I've hung out with him a few times, some socially, some work
events and such over the last few years, and don't recall him running around
trying to convince folks that the sky is polkadot or that Neumann makes
those really lame crystal-element copies of RCA 77 mics and stuff so ..
What? You;re done... I can leave? Thanks!

END OF TRANSCRIPTION.


Quotes from PHIL

Why are you called an asshole?

** Rivers is the most pathetic, low, lying, autistic, know nothing ****
when he simply has no answer.

** I do not a give *flying ***** what the technically illiterate, ASININE
PIGS who inhabit this NG think.

** Shame on you all here for throwing abbreviated names and smart sounding
jargon around carelessly and out of context.

You reap what you sow.

............. Phil

I guess so Phil... Though from the solid reliable consistant and remarkably
voluminous sowing you do here... I'd duck.

"Mike Rivers"


Actually, Phil does sort of have his act together on this, as usual,
but as usual, he's changed the subject ...


** The Parrot Brained ****wit did exactly that.


so that he can argue symantics rather than technical facts.


** The Parrot Brained ****wit did exactly that too.


BTW

The word is "semantics" - you pig ignorant ass !!!



The electronics in a condenser mic actually takes a very high
impedance current source (several megohms) and makes it useful.


** It is a small capacitor, not a "current source" - you Parrot Brained
****wit.


Currant sauce is what you have on your ice cream !!!!!!



It doesn't need to amplify the voltage because there's plenty of voltage,


** There is none whatsoever from the capsule alone ( electrets excepted) .

The pre-amp has to supply a DC polarising voltage as well - internal
phantom power.



but it does need to provide an output from the mic's connector that's
at somewhere around the capsule's AC voltage, but at an impedance low
enough so that it can be connected to a useful load.


** Which absolutely requires that it be an Active, Electronic,
Pre-Amplifying circuit.




The trick to the quiz is the context.


** Which was **crystal clear** in my post to SD !!


What a vile, stinking, lying, criminal asshole you are - Rivers !!




.............. Phil

"SSJVCmag"

** Rivers cock sucker.


You make me wanna puke.





............. Phil

On 8/3/05 10:47 AM, in article , "Phil
Allison" wrote:


"SSJVCmag"


Or am I on another planet (again)?


** Your ugly fat arse hole is not some weird, smelly, dark, hairy planet.

Put your head out and have a look some day.

Ahhh... Sorry, you must've misread my question (actually I've had
compliments on... Well, that's something else entirely).
Give it another try!
Thanks

On 8/3/05 10:41 AM, in article , "Phil
Allison" wrote:


"Mike Rivers" = scum of the planet prick

Ah... I always just called it The Washington Monument...
But I NEVEr got it confused with Mike.. He's a Lot Less Tall.



Condenser mic pre-amps typically have less than unity voltage gain.

Most of us call that an attenuator,


** Who is this "us" - you parrot brained asshole ???

The sub human piles of garbage that haunt RAP and generally **** up the
whole music & recording industry ??

Ah, seeing your description of where you hang out here I understand a lot
more of your point of view! You should associate with better.



FYI Attenuators have power loss.

OTOH, condenser mic-preamps have power gains of the order of 10,00,000
times.

Ah... Phil... Could you help us (you know ... The 'us' out here that's not
'you' in there) understand this new method of writing (what I assume are)
decimal numbers? What exactly is " 10,00,000 " in old-fashioned decimal
notation?

Thanks!

In article writes:

Isn't the Thingie, be it a tube or FET, that follows the condensor element
actually called an impedance convertor? Or am I on another planet (again)?

That's its function but people don't generally call it that. Most
people don't even separate it from the microphone, but consider it an
integral part. When it's a mic with interchangeable capsules, it's
usually called "the body" by the unwashed majority.

Mr. Allison, however, insists on calling it a preamp just because
AKG's marketing department did. He probably believes the polar
patterns in the published literature, too, which are also products of
the marketing department.

A "pre" amplifier is an amplifier that goes before another amplifer.
Once you've used up your allocation of "pre"s (one), what are you
going to call the box that you plug the mic into? An amplifier?
How clever!


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Bob Cain wrote in
:



Phil Allison wrote:

So, the voltage gain of the whole pre-amp is likely to be no more than
unity.

IOW, an impedence converter. If you want to call that a
pre-amp, OK, but you'll be pretty much by yourself in so doing.


Bob


Bruel & Kjaer have always referred to their 2615/2619/2639/etc as
microphone preamplifiers, despite the fact that all have less than unity
gain. The same is true for the manufacturers of the B&K look-alikes, such
as ACO Pacific, Larson Davis, GRAS, etc.

Perahps down the line you can surprise eveyone by saying something that is
correct for a change, instead of just blowing hot air and BS out of that
piehole in your face.

SSJVCmag wrote:
On 8/3/05 10:41 AM, in article , "Phil
Allison" wrote:



FYI Attenuators have power loss.

OTOH, condenser mic-preamps have power gains of the order of 10,00,000
times.


Ah... Phil... Could you help us (you know ... The 'us' out here that's not
'you' in there) understand this new method of writing (what I assume are)
decimal numbers? What exactly is " 10,00,000 " in old-fashioned decimal
notation?

Thanks!


Did't you know he is an Indian? This is standard Indian notation, and he
is talking about a gain of ten lakhs.

d

In article writes:

The word is "semantics" - you pig ignorant ass !!!

Sorry, the spelling checker was still angry at Symantic, the company
that makes the backup program that won't do what I bought it to do.

Currant sauce is what you have on your ice cream !!!!!!

Now that's the most accurate thing you've said around here yet. I
rather like currants.

The pre-amp has to supply a DC polarising voltage as well - internal
phantom power.

Caught you in another inaccuracy. Phantom power is external. The
preamp doesn't supply the polarizing voltage, something in the
case that also houses the impedance converter provides the polarizing
voltage. And in the case of an electret-based capsule, there's no
polarizing voltage at all because the element has a built-in electric
charge (which creates a voltage across the capacitor plates, but let's
leave that for another day).

** Which absolutely requires that it be an Active, Electronic,
Pre-Amplifying circuit.

Correct, except for the word "pre." You must like that word
because it's close to "pee."


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"SSJVCmag"


** No surprise that Mike Rivers would have a mentally retarded person for a
cock sucker.





........... Phil

Let's stop talking about parrot-brained whatevers. Parrots -- especially the
African gray -- are incredibly intelligent.

Granted, the capsule _does_ deliver a micro-minuscule amount of current
to
the amplifier, and the amplifier pumps a much larger current into the
mixing
console's input, so you could very well compute a power gain. But it's
meaningless in terms of the way the amplifier is actually used.



** My god - so having a power gain of some 10,000,000 times is
"meaningless " to this anencephalic "Summawork" prick.

It is meaningless, because we're interested in the mic's voltage -- not the
current it can pump.

Granted, the capsule _does_ deliver a micro-minuscule
amount of current to the amplifier, and the amplifier
pumps a much larger current into the mixing console's
input, so you could very well compute a power gain.

The power gain is significant. I call 10, or 100 or more
*significant*.

But it's meaningless in terms of the way the amplifier is
actually used.

The significant power gain is the whole point of having the
active component present in the signal path. if there was no
power gain, a transformer alone might suffice.

Not in the case of a condenser capsule. Stepping up the voltage would have
the effect of lowering the load impedance the capsule sees. The external
load would have to be hundreds of megohms (if not more) to get a "light"
load for the capsule _and_ allow voltage gain.

The whole idea of "matched impedance" and "power gain" in amplifiers pretty
much went out with the switch from transformer coupling to RC coupling.

The amp in a condenser mic does not amplify the capsule's power level --
it's a voltage amplifier. The capsule's capacitance is so small that it
is
essentially a hi-Z voltage source that must work into a high-impedance
load.

Other way around. Voltage gain on a KM84 is less than one (although a
lot of that has to do with the output transformer). Voltage gain on the
BLUE baby bottle is greater than one, though.

But it's the current gain that is so important.

Let's stop a moment. Are you telling me that a condenser capsule can produce
an output of, oh, 1mV for an 80dB SPL? I don't believe it. The capacitance
is so small, and the diaphragm moves so little, that dV = Q/dC isn't going
to be a very large number.

"William Sommerwerck"


** My god - so having a power gain of some 10,000,000 times is
"meaningless " to this anencephalic "Summawork" prick.

It is meaningless, because we're interested in the mic's voltage -- not
the
current it can pump.



** Strewth - that is even MORE stupid than this idiot's last post.

The cretin keeps breaking his own records .....



........... Phil

"William Sommerwerck"
Arny wrote:

The significant power gain is the whole point of having the
active component present in the signal path. if there was no
power gain, a transformer alone might suffice.

Not in the case of a condenser capsule. Stepping up the voltage would have
the effect of lowering the load impedance the capsule sees. The external
load would have to be hundreds of megohms (if not more) to get a "light"
load for the capsule _and_ allow voltage gain.

The whole idea of "matched impedance" and "power gain" in amplifiers
pretty
much went out with the switch from transformer coupling to RC coupling.



** Is there no limit to this absolute fool's ability to exceed his previous
"bests" ??

When they hold the "****wit's Olympics " - Summawork is a cert for a
Gold.



............ Phil

my2cents wrote:

Bruel & Kjaer have always referred to their 2615/2619/2639/etc as
microphone preamplifiers, despite the fact that all have less than unity
gain. The same is true for the manufacturers of the B&K look-alikes, such
as ACO Pacific, Larson Davis, GRAS, etc.

Are you sure? All of my B&K docs call them "Followers" rather than
preamplifiers, presumably because they have voltage follower circuits
inside.

I don't know about the clones.

Personally, I don't like _any_ of the words used. "Preamplifiers" is
confusing, "followers" is not always accurate, "impedance converters"
is accurate but incomplete, and "handles" is only correct for some
styles of design. I think we should call them "bleem."
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"William Summa-wank"

Let's stop a moment. Are you telling me that a condenser capsule can
produce
an output of, oh, 1mV for an 80dB SPL?



** Condenser mic capsules generate about 5 to 10 times more voltage than a
200 ohm dynamic.

So about 1.5 to 3 mV for a SPL of 80 dB.


I don't believe it.


** ROTFL - who gives a rat's arse what a champion ****wit *believes* ???



The capacitance
is so small, and the diaphragm moves so little, that dV = Q/dC isn't going
to be a very large number.


** Funny how condenser mics have far more output level than dynamics while
their internal pre-amps have sub unity overall voltage gain.

Maybe that diaphragm moves a bit after all ??




.......... Phil

"William Somma-wank"

Let's stop talking about parrot-brained whatevers. Parrots -- especially
the
African gray -- are incredibly intelligent.



** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Now the champion ****wit champions parrot's brains !!

Summa-wank needs to go on the Letterman Show.





.......... Phil

On 8/3/05 3:32 PM, in article znr1123087768k@trad, "Mike Rivers"
wrote:

A "pre" amplifier is an amplifier that goes before another amplifer.
Once you've used up your allocation of "pre"s (one), what are you
going to call the box that you plug the mic into? An amplifier?
How clever!

And that'd just put us right back into Real Engineering Speak where things
are called what they ARE, no more, no less... And how could we live with
ourselves??

On 8/3/05 6:37 PM, in article , "William
Sommerwerck" wrote:

Let's stop talking about parrot-brained whatevers. Parrots -- especially the
African gray -- are incredibly intelligent.

You;re right of course. I was so caught up in pleasant conversation I forgot
my manners. My apologies to avian folks everywhere. No slight intended.

"Mike Rivers"
Phil Allison

The word is "semantics" - you pig ignorant ass !!!

Currant sauce is what you have on your ice cream !!!!!!


The pre-amp has to supply a DC polarising voltage as well - internal
phantom power.


Caught you in another inaccuracy.


** **** off - parrot brain.


Phantom power is external.


** Except when it is internal - you ass.


The preamp doesn't supply the polarizing voltage,


** It sure does - one of its main jobs.



** Which absolutely requires that it be an Active, Electronic,
Pre-Amplifying circuit.

Correct, except for the word "pre."


** **** off - parrot brain.




............ Phil

On 8/3/05 7:23 PM, in article , "Phil Allison"
wrote:


** Strewth - that is even MORE stupid than this idiot's last post.

The cretin keeps breaking his own records .....


** Is there no limit to this absolute fool's ability to exceed his previous
"bests" ??

When they hold the "****wit's Olympics " - Summawork is a cert for a
Gold.


Phil... I'm still off on the context of the subject here, is it more like
this?

Stevens' killer instincts, lightning reflexes and Special Forces training
were about to pay off bigtime... Even Rasmastin, The Idiot Savant
Mathematical Killer sent to take him out, was no match for his inventive
reactions. Stevens launched a pre-emptive attack grabbing the nearest thing
available. The Cacatua leadbeateri had barely time to make the beginings of
a protestatory squwak before it slammed arrowlike into Rasmastin's skull
like an artillery shell. He fell with an astounded look on his face, never
to rise again. Casandra looked out from behind her dressing-screen and said
coyly "Any chance he'll be trouble later?". Steven's merely laughed, saying
"What, a parrot-brained ****wit?"