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Jonathan[_5_] Jonathan[_5_] is offline
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On Sunday, June 21, 2015 at 5:06:49 PM UTC-4, John Williamson wrote:
On 21/06/2015 21:26, Jonathan wrote:
What do you think is the most reliable way to do long term backups of important material?

On a computer, the one with the best record is linear digital tape,
which is what banks and other people who need accurate access to old
records use. They last a decade or two before they need to be backed up.
Next comes a decent hard drive, but you need to (a) keep it exercised,
and (b) transfer all the data on a drive to a new ones every few years.
All digital information needs transferring to new media before the read
errors become uncorrectable. I have a few floppy disks that are still
readable after 35 years, but 90% of my old floppies are now unreadable
even in the drive that made them, which works perfectly when checked
with new floppies. For any digital format, you also need to maintain a
system which can read the format both as bits and as files, as they tend
to fall out of common use, and some proprietary file formats have been
almost unrecoverable for thirty years or more now. In audio, I could
mention the Sony units from as recently as 30 years ago that used a
Betamax tape drive, producing recordings that are now beyond recovery
due to tape aging, a proprietary file format, and a lack of spare heads
for the players. Flash drives, either as thumb drives, SD cards or as
Solid State Discs are too new for reliable figures to be available yet.

For analogue longevity, the best we know of is a shellac 78rpm disc or a
cylinder, stored in a cool, dark place. We know that can last at least a
century, with some degradation of the stored signal, mostly caused by
wear due to playback. Good quality vinyl is approaching 70 years now,
and is holding up well so far. Magnetic tape lasts a few decades with a
good binder formulation and correct storage, given regular rewinding to
reduce print through from one layer to the next.

The shortest archive life for digital storage is any optically writeable
medium, with some only lasting months or even weeks before becoming
unreadable. My personal record for that was a disc that was written on a
Monday, checked out perfectly, and was unreadable by Friday.

For really long term storage, write the notes to be played and words to
be sung down using Indian ink on parchment, that is known to last for
many centuries unless the vermin get to it. Papyrus falls apart after a
couple of millennia even if kept dry and dark...

--
Tciao for Now!

John.


Thanks for the response.
It seems like it would be a good idea to supplement these local backups by backing up to a cloud service, where they have redundant disk arrays and periodically upgrade their storage media.
Does anyone know which cloud storage service is supposed to be the most reliable and secure?
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On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 10:35:21 AM UTC-4, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/23/2015 6:44 AM, Trevor wrote:
vinyl records will have long turned into sludge before 5,000 years,
you'd be better off keeping the metal masters.


Maybe they will, maybe they won't. People who complain about landfills
say that they have things in them that won't deteriorate for centuries,
so who knows whether they'll deteriorate in 5,000 years. But then, 5,000
is years is really an exaggeration in any sense. I expect that whatever
populates the earth then will have no concept of music as it is today.

Metal masters are nice to keep, but there are so few of them compared to
the number of pressings. Metal masters aren't all that common (most are
cut on lacquer), and metal stamping parts tend to get discarded when
they start making funky pressings (some funkier than others).

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com


In 5000 years, we'll be living underwater. All the top 40 hits will be based on whale sonar.
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On 6/23/2015 12:20 PM, Jonathan wrote:
Does anyone know which cloud storage service is supposed to be the
most reliable and secure?


The one that you couldn't afford, not even in your dreams. Digital data
is very robust, except when it isn't. And as long as it's being managed
by people or machines, something's going to go wrong.

You're probably better off buying another hard drive, backing up your
backup to that, and giving it to a friend who doesn't live in your house
to store for you. Another good plan is to just not leave things on your
computer that you can't replace. And a third, and related, good plan is
simply to not worry about things that you might lose. There's other
music, other videos, other stories, and other memories of people and
things that are gone from the world.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Jonathan wrote:

In 5000 years, we'll be living underwater. All the top 40 hits will be based on whale sonar.


Could be. Here's a song about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pHQyrurdsk
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 12:56:57 PM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Jonathan wrote:

In 5000 years, we'll be living underwater. All the top 40 hits will be based on whale sonar.


Could be. Here's a song about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pHQyrurdsk
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


It that the flip side of Tiny Bubbles?

Jack


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On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 12:37:33 PM UTC-4, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/23/2015 12:20 PM, Jonathan wrote:
Does anyone know which cloud storage service is supposed to be the
most reliable and secure?


The one that you couldn't afford, not even in your dreams. Digital data
is very robust, except when it isn't. And as long as it's being managed
by people or machines, something's going to go wrong.

You're probably better off buying another hard drive, backing up your
backup to that, and giving it to a friend who doesn't live in your house
to store for you. Another good plan is to just not leave things on your
computer that you can't replace. And a third, and related, good plan is
simply to not worry about things that you might lose. There's other
music, other videos, other stories, and other memories of people and
things that are gone from the world.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com



Sadly, by mid-century, EVERYTHING(music, movies, TV shows, home videos & photos, even framed art) will be "in the cloud". Why do you think so many tapes, discs(optical and vinyl), and actual framed art are clogging up Goodwills, Salvation Armies, and other thrift-stores? Unrelated, but why do you see so many floor & table-lamps in those stores? Simple: Recessed lighting, less clutter.


Society is migrating away from physical copies of everything. The internet is now robust enough, and storage cheap enough per TB(let alone GB!) that everyone is just copying everything old to digital, storing it in the cloud or on hard-drives, and buying or accessing newer releases on-line. Press a button on a remote, and the material appears on your TV. Or access it from your phone or a screen in the car dashboard. Or on the TV in your grandma's house or hotel!


I for one will NEVER relinquish my physical media for as long as I live. You just can't beat the quality of direct playback in your own home.
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On 6/23/2015 1:23 PM, wrote:
Sadly, by mid-century, EVERYTHING(music, movies, TV shows, home
videos & photos, even framed art) will be "in the cloud". Why do you
think so many tapes, discs(optical and vinyl), and actual framed art
are clogging up Goodwills, Salvation Armies, and other thrift-stores?


Because people don't care about preserving these things. There's always
more to be had.

Unrelated, but why do you see so many floor & table-lamps in those
stores? Simple: Recessed lighting, less clutter.


I dunno. My eyes get worse as I get older and I need more direct light.
Recessed lighting would be a waste for me.

Society is migrating away from physical copies of everything.


They haven't lived with that mentality for long enough yet to know
whether they'd miss it or not if it disappeared. The sad truth is that
they probably wouldn't. I'll have to admit that while I don't have any
compelling need or desire to get rid of my record collection, I really
don't spend much time with it any more. I'd hope that when the time
comes to get rid of it, I can find someone who will appreciate it. I'd
feel terrible to know that it's gone into a dump.

I for one will NEVER relinquish my physical media for as long as I
live. You just can't beat the quality of direct playback in your own
home.


I suppose that there's quality material "out there" that I could play
back in my home with higher quality than playing an old record. The
difference isn't with the quality of sound, it's with the quality of
life. Also, the feeling of security that you know what you have, and
what you don't have.

--
For a good time, visit
http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 1:38:59 PM UTC-4, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/23/2015 1:23 PM, wrote:
Sadly, by mid-century, EVERYTHING(music, movies, TV shows, home
videos & photos, even framed art) will be "in the cloud". Why do you
think so many tapes, discs(optical and vinyl), and actual framed art
are clogging up Goodwills, Salvation Armies, and other thrift-stores?


Because people don't care about preserving these things. There's always
more to be had.

Unrelated, but why do you see so many floor & table-lamps in those
stores? Simple: Recessed lighting, less clutter.


I dunno. My eyes get worse as I get older and I need more direct light.
Recessed lighting would be a waste for me.


I THOUGHT my hearing was getting worse. At one time, I could detect elevated levels of tape hiss noise. However, even though I like them, I have to blame my ability not to hear that tape noise on my Philips headphones.

p.s. For eyes (eyesight), especially "floaters", I'm trying 1000 mg Bilberry pills.

Jack


Society is migrating away from physical copies of everything.


They haven't lived with that mentality for long enough yet to know
whether they'd miss it or not if it disappeared. The sad truth is that
they probably wouldn't. I'll have to admit that while I don't have any
compelling need or desire to get rid of my record collection, I really
don't spend much time with it any more. I'd hope that when the time
comes to get rid of it, I can find someone who will appreciate it. I'd
feel terrible to know that it's gone into a dump.

I for one will NEVER relinquish my physical media for as long as I
live. You just can't beat the quality of direct playback in your own
home.


I suppose that there's quality material "out there" that I could play
back in my home with higher quality than playing an old record. The
difference isn't with the quality of sound, it's with the quality of
life. Also, the feeling of security that you know what you have, and
what you don't have.

--
For a good time, visit
http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

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JackA:

Could you kindly post the make & model# of these Philips
'phones you use to "master" with?
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Mike Rivers wrote: "The difference isn't with the quality of sound,
it's with the quality of life."


Oh, that's riiiight! I'm the only one on rec audio pro who cares about
sound quality, perhaps the only one on this planet! LOL


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On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 2:20:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
JackA:

Could you kindly post the make & model# of these Philips
'phones you use to "master" with?


Purchased at a premium quality audio equipment dealer. Yeah, a Target department store!...

http://www.head-fi.org/products/phil...and-headphones

Yes, lacks treble, but sensitivity is above average.

Jack
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On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 2:20:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
JackA:

Could you kindly post the make & model# of these Philips
'phones you use to "master" with?


HERE ARE SPECS....

http://www.head-fi.org/products/phil...and-headphones
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On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 3:08:51 PM UTC-4, JackA wrote:
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 2:20:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
JackA:

Could you kindly post the make & model# of these Philips
'phones you use to "master" with?


Purchased at a premium quality audio equipment dealer. Yeah, a Target department store!...

http://www.head-fi.org/products/phil...and-headphones

Yes, lacks treble, but sensitivity is above average.

Jack


See here, I admit lack of appropriate treble and so does some reviews, but this THING mentions bass or lack of it...

http://www.digitalversus.com/headpho...3176/test.html

I guess EVERYONE wishes to become an audio critic.

Jack
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Mike Rivers wrote: "Or maybe you're the only
one on rec.audio.pro who doesn't have a life.
- show quoted text -"

Was not expecting such a remark from
someone of your caliber, Mike. But
alas, us "principled" types lead relatively
lonely lives.


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On 24/06/2015 12:35 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/23/2015 6:44 AM, Trevor wrote:
vinyl records will have long turned into sludge before 5,000 years,
you'd be better off keeping the metal masters.


Maybe they will, maybe they won't. People who complain about landfills
say that they have things in them that won't deteriorate for centuries,
so who knows whether they'll deteriorate in 5,000 years.


Almost anyone with real chemistry knowledge I imagine. Characteristics
of various plastics are fairly well known. Do NOT think that just
because some plastics last a long time, all of them might. Even non
chemists know that!

But then, 5,000
is years is really an exaggeration in any sense. I expect that whatever
populates the earth then will have no concept of music as it is today.


Assuming humans are still around, (not something I'd bet on but
*assuming*) then they may at least be interested just as we are about
the ancient Egyptians.


Metal masters are nice to keep, but there are so few of them compared to
the number of pressings. Metal masters aren't all that common (most are
cut on lacquer),


Which are then plated.

and metal stamping parts tend to get discarded when
they start making funky pressings (some funkier than others).


You don't want the inverse stampers, you want the mothers the stampers
are made from.

Trevor.


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In article , Trevor wrote:
On 24/06/2015 12:35 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/23/2015 6:44 AM, Trevor wrote:
vinyl records will have long turned into sludge before 5,000 years,
you'd be better off keeping the metal masters.


Maybe they will, maybe they won't. People who complain about landfills
say that they have things in them that won't deteriorate for centuries,
so who knows whether they'll deteriorate in 5,000 years.


Almost anyone with real chemistry knowledge I imagine. Characteristics
of various plastics are fairly well known. Do NOT think that just
because some plastics last a long time, all of them might. Even non
chemists know that!


Unfortunately they get proven wrong all the time. Witness sticky shed
with the new formulation that was supposed to last so much longer.
Witness the Kodak "low fade" print stock that faded faster than the
older stock. Until a material has actually been around for 5,000 years
it's hard to be absolutely sure how they will react to 5,000 years of aging.

Metal masters are nice to keep, but there are so few of them compared to
the number of pressings. Metal masters aren't all that common (most are
cut on lacquer),


Which are then plated.


If you keep the lacquers, the plasticizer from the lacquer outgasses and the
lacquer layer shrinks and separates from the base.

If you keep the metal, it can corrode (although cosmolene and the like can
help a whole lot).

Often test pressings will outlast both of them, but not always.

and metal stamping parts tend to get discarded when
they start making funky pressings (some funkier than others).


You don't want the inverse stampers, you want the mothers the stampers
are made from.


Lots of folks at smaller labels didn't run 2-step process. All they have
is one piece of metal.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Trevor wrote:
On 23/06/2015 10:48 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
Trevor wrote:
On 23/06/2015 11:40 AM, Les Cargill wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Les Cargill wrote:

I disagree. Spinning disks in a live data center will work out
the best.

It won't be cheap.

Guys like Backblaze are probably the best to ask to find out
how to do it.

Unfortunately this didn't help customers of Lambhost or Megaupload....
--scott

No, it did not. Hence "it won't be cheap." But a properly
maintained center would work.

You mean properly maintained *centers*, since that proves center
redundancy is just as necessary as drive redundancy within each center.


That's probably right*, but any comms link between centers is now
a liability.

*not teally sure how to model two centers in one building, since it
seems like the principal risk there is... artillery or the like.


Clearly you DON'T want two centers in one building,


Not so clearly. but yeah, probably mostly.

(fire being the main
problem AFAIC) NOR two centers that are financially dependent on each
other in ANY way.


Indeed. What I have not done is make a risk tradeoff tableux and
gone through it.

But frankly as long as you are willing to regularly
maintain your own backups as well, one other off site server is all that
is necessary IMO.


Most likely, dependent on availability requirements. The perverse thing
is that the design NRE cost is cut roughly in half for two of them,
at a vast increase in availability.


Trevor.




--
Les Cargill
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On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 12:37:33 PM UTC-4, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/23/2015 12:20 PM, Jonathan wrote:
Does anyone know which cloud storage service is supposed to be the
most reliable and secure?


The one that you couldn't afford, not even in your dreams. Digital data
is very robust, except when it isn't. And as long as it's being managed
by people or machines, something's going to go wrong.

You're probably better off buying another hard drive, backing up your
backup to that, and giving it to a friend who doesn't live in your house
to store for you. Another good plan is to just not leave things on your
computer that you can't replace. And a third, and related, good plan is
simply to not worry about things that you might lose. There's other
music, other videos, other stories, and other memories of people and
things that are gone from the world.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com


But all things being equal, seems like it wouldn't hurt to put a copy of everything on Google Drive or OneDrive or something in addition to making local copies.
I'm just talking about my recordings. Not my entire music collection.
If they lose it, they lose it, but if *I* lose it, there's a pretty high possibility that I can get it back.
My main concern is security--the likelihood of Google getting hacked, or accidentally sharing private files.
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On 24/06/2015 19:10, Jonathan wrote:

But all things being equal, seems like it wouldn't hurt to put a copy of everything on Google Drive or OneDrive or something in addition to making local copies.
I'm just talking about my recordings. Not my entire music collection.
If they lose it, they lose it, but if *I* lose it, there's a pretty high possibility that I can get it back.
My main concern is security--the likelihood of Google getting hacked, or accidentally sharing private files.

What is the average life of any on-line backup system? Can you recover
your data after the company goes into liquidation after selling all the
hardware?

There's nothing wrong with maintaining an on-line backup as plan B, but
you need to have a plan A as well. You do, however, need to make sure
that you can still access your on-line data, and that it still matches
your local copy on a regular, fairly frequent basis.

Eecently, I wanted to use Outlook on my new phone as well as on the new
computer, so I bought Outlook for the PC and installed free Outlook on
the phone as well. They won't talk to each other, even with a third
party program. I have to use a third party calendar app on the phone. If
you use the online version of Outlook, it is completely impossible to
get a local copy of your data other than by printing the page off, so
you can't use the programs without an internet connection. How long do
you reckon Microsoft will keep giving you free storage space? How long
before they drop support for this year's data format from the OS?
They're already considering a subscription model for the operating
system, so they will be able to turn your computer into a brick by
clicking a mouse button.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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dumb **** @ short bus . com wrote in message
...
Oh, that's riiiight! I'm the only one on rec audio pro who cares
about
sound quality,


No, you're just a dumb**** beating your hobby horse.

perhaps the only one on this planet! LOL


Can't you spell it out in English? It doesn't really matter, but just
the other day you were throwing one of your retard-tantrums because
someone used an abbreviation instead of spelling it out in full, in
English, as you demanded. Not only a dumb****, you're a retarded
hypocritical whining dumb****.

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On 24/06/2015 10:59 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , Trevor wrote:
On 24/06/2015 12:35 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/23/2015 6:44 AM, Trevor wrote:
vinyl records will have long turned into sludge before 5,000 years,
you'd be better off keeping the metal masters.

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. People who complain about landfills
say that they have things in them that won't deteriorate for centuries,
so who knows whether they'll deteriorate in 5,000 years.


Almost anyone with real chemistry knowledge I imagine. Characteristics
of various plastics are fairly well known. Do NOT think that just
because some plastics last a long time, all of them might. Even non
chemists know that!


Unfortunately they get proven wrong all the time. Witness sticky shed
with the new formulation that was supposed to last so much longer.
Witness the Kodak "low fade" print stock that faded faster than the
older stock. Until a material has actually been around for 5,000 years
it's hard to be absolutely sure how they will react to 5,000 years of aging.


You've got it ass about. We can often be pretty sure what WON'T last
5000 years, even if we can't be sure what will.


Metal masters are nice to keep, but there are so few of them compared to
the number of pressings. Metal masters aren't all that common (most are
cut on lacquer),


Which are then plated.


If you keep the lacquers, the plasticizer from the lacquer outgasses and the
lacquer layer shrinks and separates from the base.

If you keep the metal, it can corrode (although cosmolene and the like can
help a whole lot).


True, to be really safe you need to do what NASA did and use a solid
gold disk! :-)

Trevor.





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On 25/06/2015 07:27, Trevor wrote:
On 24/06/2015 10:59 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
If you keep the metal, it can corrode (although cosmolene and the like
can
help a whole lot).


True, to be really safe you need to do what NASA did and use a solid
gold disk! :-)

Then store it in a vacuum at near to absolute zero. ;-)


--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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On 25/06/2015 4:35 PM, John Williamson wrote:
On 25/06/2015 07:27, Trevor wrote:
On 24/06/2015 10:59 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
If you keep the metal, it can corrode (although cosmolene and the like
can
help a whole lot).


True, to be really safe you need to do what NASA did and use a solid
gold disk! :-)

Then store it in a vacuum at near to absolute zero. ;-)


That was just what happens when you send something into deep space, not
a requirement. Gold is pretty stable without it.

Trevor.


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On Sun, 21 Jun 2015 13:26:56 -0700 (PDT) "Jonathan"
wrote in article dab8b4f9-0a52-48f9-bda7-

What do you think is the most reliable way to do long term backups of important material?


From what I've read, NVRAM is thought to have a very long retention time
- on the order of hundreds of years based on accelerated aging tests. Who
knows?
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On Sun, 05 Jul 2015 19:58:53 -0500 "Les Cargill"
wrote in article
NVRAM is a class of solutions, not one specific one.


I was thinking of flash memory.


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On 7/5/2015 9:42 PM, Jason wrote:
I was thinking of flash memory.


I wouldn't trust anything called "flash" to last very long. I've had
some USB thumb drives that have stopped working. They have a processor
between the connector and the memory, and you should know by now that if
there's a digital processor involved, some day it's going to screw you.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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JackA JackA is offline
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Default Press Releases Withdrawal from the Recording Media Business

On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 7:22:37 AM UTC-4, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 7/5/2015 9:42 PM, Jason wrote:
I was thinking of flash memory.


I wouldn't trust anything called "flash" to last very long.


Last I read, life, about 2500 flashes. But that was years, maybe decades ago.
Best USB stick brand = SanDisc. Had other brands, had problems.
Coworker recommended, has an ancient one, keeps on ticking.

Jack

I've had
some USB thumb drives that have stopped working. They have a processor
between the connector and the memory, and you should know by now that if
there's a digital processor involved, some day it's going to screw you.

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com


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