[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nate Najar" wrote in message
news:12059206.686.1324237512606.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqkb10...

redeye is good. very very good. ridiculously good. I am amazed and
surprised. and happy. A worthwhile investment for sure.

Based on my experiences with applying eq to guitars, I would definitely
want
a far more flexible equalizer. 3-5 bands of full parametric eq would make
me
delighted. One can obtain 3 bands of full parametric eq in a small
package
from RDL: http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=115 , but it lacks an
input stage what would be ideal for use with a wide range of guitar
pickups.

then again, how much guitar do you play?

That's just it, I don't play guitar at all, but I do often mix 30-plus
vocalists and instrumentalists into a resonable sound, which I'm pretty
proud of given the out-of-date venue and the fact that they are very
unbalanced, acoustically.

While I'm rocking your world Hank, let me point out that in general musicans
have no idea what they sound like in the hall. This is more true, the larger
the venue, and the better the venue is designed. Isn't what you sound like
to the paying customers the most important thing?

i've been using the Red Eye
professionaly for a while now, and whiie i am happy to reach for EQ if i
feel i need it, i have not felt that in a couple of hundred gigs.

Hank, what would you know about how *you* sound 30 rows back, in the middle
of the hall during the performance? If you've figured out how to play on the
stage and sit and listen carefully in the middle of the audience at the same
time, let me suggest that there is a great career available to you as an
stage magician. ;-)

BTW I like the concept of the Red Eye as far as it goes.

If you say that your friends tell you how you sound, how many of them have
been doing audio for over 50 years and live sound and recording for over 12?
IME musicans listen to music, which is not necessarily the same as listening
to sound quality. Rarely do I find musicans who can properly characterize
technical problems with reproduction. About as good as it gets is someone
who plays me a MP3 and says "Make me sound like this". I often can come
close to the tone, but obviously not the playing. ;-)

how much experience do you have _not_ applying EQ to guitars?

Tons. We've tried all known permuations of how to best handle both acoustic
and electronic instruments. Rotated through any number of different mics and
micing strategies. We've had amps on stage and know why we are glad they are
not there today.

Tell me Hank, how many years of hands-on experience do you have with modern
monitoring technology such as the Aviom system or competitive products? How
much experience do you have with mixing ensembles that take up almost all of
the channels on a 56-channel mixer? How much experience do you have mixing a
rock group and small orchestra plus chorus? What experience do you have
mixing French Horns, Bassoons, and Violas? What about mixing an orchestra,
soloists, a vocal duet and a choir working together? How do you balance two
violins and a high energy brass section? What about having to mic acoustical
instruments in the sound field of the house speakers?

a significant number of folks operating the mixing boards into which i've
been playing have remarked how nice it is not to have to mess with
what's coming down the line.

If all they can do is mess with the sound, then that would be a good thing.
;-)

Believe it or not Hank, there is an art to mixing, and rarely in the world
of more complex events does obtaining the best possible mix *not* involve
considerable spectral and level adjustments to the signal.

Part of my problem is that over half of the musicans I work with are
amateurs with only a few years of experience. Not infrequently I work with
groups who have never played together in any sort of a venue.

But even the far more experienced instrumentalists I work with can be very
inconsistent. For example, our pianist is a very different player when her
arthritus is acting up. It is a poorly-kept secret that serious problems
with the hands are endemic among older pianists, e.g. over 35.

I also work with 3 different guitarists, 3 different bass players, and two
different drummers who play at different times in the same group. The
guitarists each have their own instruments. No surprise, they all play
differently and need different gain and equalization packages to provide the
house sound that our music director desires.

Then there is the problem of the room fill changing over a range of 5 to 1
from performance to performance and even during a given performance. It's a
very live untreated room, and the bodies make up most of the absorbtion, so
the body count has pretty dramatic effects on the room sound.

i'm a fan of less being more, except when it isn't, but in this case, it
is. so far no need to stick more circuitry between the source and the
destination.

If all you hear is your on-stage sound then that is usually relatively
easy...

i dig it. i already have a pair of Specks, so if i needed some EQ, my
pocketbook wouldn't notice.

The point here being that the Specks are wonderful, but they are also far
larger and heavier. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't small and light good
for musicans, especially those who travel around?

[hank alrich]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nate Najar" wrote in message
news:12059206.686.1324237512606.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqkb10...

redeye is good. very very good. ridiculously good. I am amazed and
surprised. and happy. A worthwhile investment for sure.

Based on my experiences with applying eq to guitars, I would definitely
want
a far more flexible equalizer. 3-5 bands of full parametric eq would make
me
delighted. One can obtain 3 bands of full parametric eq in a small
package
from RDL: http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=115 , but it lacks an
input stage what would be ideal for use with a wide range of guitar
pickups.

then again, how much guitar do you play?

That's just it, I don't play guitar at all, but I do often mix 30-plus
vocalists and instrumentalists into a resonable sound, which I'm pretty
proud of given the out-of-date venue and the fact that they are very
unbalanced, acoustically.

While I'm rocking your world Hank, let me point out that in general musicans
have no idea what they sound like in the hall. This is more true, the larger
the venue, and the better the venue is designed. Isn't what you sound like
to the paying customers the most important thing?

i've been using the Red Eye
professionaly for a while now, and whiie i am happy to reach for EQ if i
feel i need it, i have not felt that in a couple of hundred gigs.

Hank, what would you know about how *you* sound 30 rows back, in the middle
of the hall during the performance? If you've figured out how to play on the
stage and sit and listen carefully in the middle of the audience at the same
time, let me suggest that there is a great career available to you as an
stage magician. ;-)

BTW I like the concept of the Red Eye as far as it goes.

If you say that your friends tell you how you sound, how many of them have
been doing audio for over 50 years and live sound and recording for over 12?
IME musicans listen to music, which is not necessarily the same as listening
to sound quality. Rarely do I find musicans who can properly characterize
technical problems with reproduction. About as good as it gets is someone
who plays me a MP3 and says "Make me sound like this". I often can come
close to the tone, but obviously not the playing. ;-)

how much experience do you have _not_ applying EQ to guitars?

Tons. We've tried all known permuations of how to best handle both acoustic
and electronic instruments. Rotated through any number of different mics and
micing strategies. We've had amps on stage and know why we are glad they are
not there today.

Tell me Hank, how many years of hands-on experience do you have with modern
monitoring technology such as the Aviom system or competitive products? How
much experience do you have with mixing ensembles that take up almost all of
the channels on a 56-channel mixer? How much experience do you have mixing a
rock group and small orchestra plus chorus? What experience do you have
mixing French Horns, Bassoons, and Violas? What about mixing an orchestra,
soloists, a vocal duet and a choir working together? How do you balance two
violins and a high energy brass section? What about having to mic acoustical
instruments in the sound field of the house speakers?

a significant number of folks operating the mixing boards into which i've
been playing have remarked how nice it is not to have to mess with
what's coming down the line.

If all they can do is mess with the sound, then that would be a good thing.
;-)

Believe it or not Hank, there is an art to mixing, and rarely in the world
of more complex events does obtaining the best possible mix *not* involve
considerable spectral and level adjustments to the signal.

Part of my problem is that over half of the musicans I work with are
amateurs with only a few years of experience. Not infrequently I work with
groups who have never played together in any sort of a venue.

But even the far more experienced instrumentalists I work with can be very
inconsistent. For example, our pianist is a very different player when her
arthritus is acting up. It is a poorly-kept secret that serious problems
with the hands are endemic among older pianists, e.g. over 35.

I also work with 3 different guitarists, 3 different bass players, and two
different drummers who play at different times in the same group. The
guitarists each have their own instruments. No surprise, they all play
differently and need different gain and equalization packages to provide the
house sound that our music director desires.

Then there is the problem of the room fill changing over a range of 5 to 1
from performance to performance and even during a given performance. It's a
very live untreated room, and the bodies make up most of the absorbtion, so
the body count has pretty dramatic effects on the room sound.

i'm a fan of less being more, except when it isn't, but in this case, it
is. so far no need to stick more circuitry between the source and the
destination.

If all you hear is your on-stage sound then that is usually relatively
easy...

i dig it. i already have a pair of Specks, so if i needed some EQ, my
pocketbook wouldn't notice.

The point here being that the Specks are wonderful, but they are also far
larger and heavier. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't small and light good
for musicans, especially those who travel around?

Maybe you can figure out that you haven't ever worked with the Red Eye?
That you probably rearely meet concert-grade guitars? (I'm not talking
about off-the-shelf instrumets.)

FWIW, I often hear what the console heard, after the fact, in my control
room, it having been captured by the MH 2882, taken directly from a
console's post-preamp pre-EQ output.

That said, I do prefer the sound of the Schoeps CMC6 w/Mk4 or the JW
mod'd AKG C462's.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Nate Najar]

On Monday, December 19, 2011 12:15:01 PM UTC-5, hank alrich wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nate Najar" wrote in message
news:12059206.686.1324237512606.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqkb10...

redeye is good. very very good. ridiculously good. I am amazed and
surprised. and happy. A worthwhile investment for sure.

Based on my experiences with applying eq to guitars, I would definitely
want
a far more flexible equalizer. 3-5 bands of full parametric eq would make
me
delighted. One can obtain 3 bands of full parametric eq in a small
package
from RDL: http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=115 , but it lacks an
input stage what would be ideal for use with a wide range of guitar
pickups.

then again, how much guitar do you play?

That's just it, I don't play guitar at all, but I do often mix 30-plus
vocalists and instrumentalists into a resonable sound, which I'm pretty
proud of given the out-of-date venue and the fact that they are very
unbalanced, acoustically.

While I'm rocking your world Hank, let me point out that in general musicans
have no idea what they sound like in the hall. This is more true, the larger
the venue, and the better the venue is designed. Isn't what you sound like
to the paying customers the most important thing?

i've been using the Red Eye
professionaly for a while now, and whiie i am happy to reach for EQ if i
feel i need it, i have not felt that in a couple of hundred gigs.

Hank, what would you know about how *you* sound 30 rows back, in the middle
of the hall during the performance? If you've figured out how to play on the
stage and sit and listen carefully in the middle of the audience at the same
time, let me suggest that there is a great career available to you as an
stage magician. ;-)

BTW I like the concept of the Red Eye as far as it goes.

If you say that your friends tell you how you sound, how many of them have
been doing audio for over 50 years and live sound and recording for over 12?
IME musicans listen to music, which is not necessarily the same as listening
to sound quality. Rarely do I find musicans who can properly characterize
technical problems with reproduction. About as good as it gets is someone
who plays me a MP3 and says "Make me sound like this". I often can come
close to the tone, but obviously not the playing. ;-)

how much experience do you have _not_ applying EQ to guitars?

Tons. We've tried all known permuations of how to best handle both acoustic
and electronic instruments. Rotated through any number of different mics and
micing strategies. We've had amps on stage and know why we are glad they are
not there today.

Tell me Hank, how many years of hands-on experience do you have with modern
monitoring technology such as the Aviom system or competitive products? How
much experience do you have with mixing ensembles that take up almost all of
the channels on a 56-channel mixer? How much experience do you have mixing a
rock group and small orchestra plus chorus? What experience do you have
mixing French Horns, Bassoons, and Violas? What about mixing an orchestra,
soloists, a vocal duet and a choir working together? How do you balance two
violins and a high energy brass section? What about having to mic acoustical
instruments in the sound field of the house speakers?

a significant number of folks operating the mixing boards into which i've
been playing have remarked how nice it is not to have to mess with
what's coming down the line.

If all they can do is mess with the sound, then that would be a good thing.
;-)

Believe it or not Hank, there is an art to mixing, and rarely in the world
of more complex events does obtaining the best possible mix *not* involve
considerable spectral and level adjustments to the signal.

Part of my problem is that over half of the musicans I work with are
amateurs with only a few years of experience. Not infrequently I work with
groups who have never played together in any sort of a venue.

But even the far more experienced instrumentalists I work with can be very
inconsistent. For example, our pianist is a very different player when her
arthritus is acting up. It is a poorly-kept secret that serious problems
with the hands are endemic among older pianists, e.g. over 35.

I also work with 3 different guitarists, 3 different bass players, and two
different drummers who play at different times in the same group. The
guitarists each have their own instruments. No surprise, they all play
differently and need different gain and equalization packages to provide the
house sound that our music director desires.

Then there is the problem of the room fill changing over a range of 5 to 1
from performance to performance and even during a given performance. It's a
very live untreated room, and the bodies make up most of the absorbtion, so
the body count has pretty dramatic effects on the room sound.

i'm a fan of less being more, except when it isn't, but in this case, it
is. so far no need to stick more circuitry between the source and the
destination.

If all you hear is your on-stage sound then that is usually relatively
easy...

i dig it. i already have a pair of Specks, so if i needed some EQ, my
pocketbook wouldn't notice.

The point here being that the Specks are wonderful, but they are also far
larger and heavier. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't small and light good
for musicans, especially those who travel around?

Maybe you can figure out that you haven't ever worked with the Red Eye?
That you probably rearely meet concert-grade guitars? (I'm not talking
about off-the-shelf instrumets.)

FWIW, I often hear what the console heard, after the fact, in my control
room, it having been captured by the MH 2882, taken directly from a
console's post-preamp pre-EQ output.

That said, I do prefer the sound of the Schoeps CMC6 w/Mk4 or the JW
mod'd AKG C462's.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

Hank,

I've been clipping a dpa 4061 on the soundhole and feeding that to FOH along with the DI signal and it is working fantastic btw....

N

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

hank alrich" wrote in message
...

Maybe you can figure out that you haven't ever worked with the Red Eye?

No doubt, but I'm not optimistic enough think that its one fixed Q, fixed
frequency filter is as flexible as more filters of various Q's at various
frequencies in other ranges. Compare and contrast the FR curves shown in
http://www.fire-eye.com/ret-ds.htm with what can be obtained with sevaerl
independent full parametric sections.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul0...qualisers1.asp

Go back and read what I said - "Based on my experiences with applying eq to
guitars, I would definitely want a far more flexible equalizer.". I'm used
to working with the full parametric channel eq on an 02R96, which is really
not quite enough to make me really happy but I make do with it pretty well.

Perhaps you don't have years of experience of being hands-on with equipment
with that level of flexibility so you don't know what you might be missing..

That you probably rearely meet concert-grade guitars? (I'm not talking
about off-the-shelf instrumets.)

I'm not optimitisic enough to believe that an instrument's sound quality
through a live sound system is just about the instrument. Hank, haven't you
noticed that sonic coloration is possible at many steps in the reproduction
process? That's why they call them equalizers - one of their more important
purposes is to equalize out the system's colorations that affect the
reproduced sound's quality as it travels through the system.

I have a lot of respect for the sound that the musican wants, so I listen to
that and then do what I can to come as close to it as I can in the paying
seats. It doesn't always come easy.

You haven't admitted it yet Hank, but I'm right in presuming that you can't
play on stage and listen in the seats at the same time, right? ;-) That's
the advantage of being a mixer man - I can walk up to the stage during
rehearsal and listen to you play, and/or listen to any sample songs you
bring along. Then I can sneak out into the seating area during the concent
and make sure that the sound there is as close to what I heard on stage as I
can make it. You've got to keep on playing, right?

FWIW, I often hear what the console heard, after the fact, in my control
room, it having been captured by the MH 2882, taken directly from a
console's post-preamp pre-EQ output.

Interesting concept - consoles that hear. I'm of the opinion that people
hear,while the best equipment can do is reproduce sound. ;-)

That said, I do prefer the sound of the Schoeps CMC6 w/Mk4 or the JW
mod'd AKG C462's.

To me, the sounic coloration of mics is an unavoidable distraction that
needs to be managed. It is the sound of the instrument as it is played or
the sound that the musican would like to emulate that is to me, of the
essence. Besides, I am obliged to work with both acoustical guitars and that
other kind of guitar as well. So, many of the guitars I work with don't use
mics.

[Scott Dorsey]

Nate Najar wrote:
Hank,

I've been clipping a dpa 4061 on the soundhole and feeding that to FOH along with the DI signal and it is working fantastic btw....

Recently I wound up having to stick a wireless mike onto a dreadnought with
only an hour's notice, and all the PA crew had were some Shure wireless packs
with cardioid lav heads. I spent some time with some gaff tape moving it
around and found a place about an inch below the bottom fret that had
surprisingly good balances. Didn't have to notch a damn thing either, which
shocked me... it just went out over nationwide TV with a little low end EQ.

Sticking the mike into the soundhole has never seemed to work well for me
even to just get a little low end to mix with an external mike, but body
mikes can sometimes work great if you can find the right place.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Steve King]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

hank alrich" wrote in message
...

Maybe you can figure out that you haven't ever worked with the Red Eye?

No doubt, but I'm not optimistic enough think that its one fixed Q, fixed
frequency filter is as flexible as more filters of various Q's at various
frequencies in other ranges. Compare and contrast the FR curves shown in
http://www.fire-eye.com/ret-ds.htm with what can be obtained with sevaerl
independent full parametric sections.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul0...qualisers1.asp

Go back and read what I said - "Based on my experiences with applying eq
to guitars, I would definitely want a far more flexible equalizer.". I'm
used to working with the full parametric channel eq on an 02R96, which is
really not quite enough to make me really happy but I make do with it
pretty well.

Perhaps you don't have years of experience of being hands-on with
equipment with that level of flexibility so you don't know what you might
be missing..

That you probably rearely meet concert-grade guitars? (I'm not talking
about off-the-shelf instrumets.)

I'm not optimitisic enough to believe that an instrument's sound quality
through a live sound system is just about the instrument. Hank, haven't
you noticed that sonic coloration is possible at many steps in the
reproduction process? That's why they call them equalizers - one of their
more important purposes is to equalize out the system's colorations that
affect the reproduced sound's quality as it travels through the system.

I have a lot of respect for the sound that the musican wants, so I listen
to that and then do what I can to come as close to it as I can in the
paying seats. It doesn't always come easy.

You haven't admitted it yet Hank, but I'm right in presuming that you
can't play on stage and listen in the seats at the same time, right? ;-)
That's the advantage of being a mixer man - I can walk up to the stage
during rehearsal and listen to you play, and/or listen to any sample
songs you bring along. Then I can sneak out into the seating area during
the concent and make sure that the sound there is as close to what I heard
on stage as I can make it. You've got to keep on playing, right?

FWIW, I often hear what the console heard, after the fact, in my control
room, it having been captured by the MH 2882, taken directly from a
console's post-preamp pre-EQ output.

Interesting concept - consoles that hear. I'm of the opinion that people
hear,while the best equipment can do is reproduce sound. ;-)

That said, I do prefer the sound of the Schoeps CMC6 w/Mk4 or the JW
mod'd AKG C462's.

To me, the sounic coloration of mics is an unavoidable distraction that
needs to be managed. It is the sound of the instrument as it is played or
the sound that the musican would like to emulate that is to me, of the
essence. Besides, I am obliged to work with both acoustical guitars and
that other kind of guitar as well. So, many of the guitars I work with
don't use mics.


Arny, you're coming off as being really smarmy, creepy nasty, unpleasant.
Stop it.

Steve King

[Steve King]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

hank alrich" wrote in message
...

Maybe you can figure out that you haven't ever worked with the Red Eye?

No doubt, but I'm not optimistic enough think that its one fixed Q, fixed
frequency filter is as flexible as more filters of various Q's at various
frequencies in other ranges. Compare and contrast the FR curves shown in
http://www.fire-eye.com/ret-ds.htm with what can be obtained with sevaerl
independent full parametric sections.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul0...qualisers1.asp

Go back and read what I said - "Based on my experiences with applying eq
to guitars, I would definitely want a far more flexible equalizer.". I'm
used to working with the full parametric channel eq on an 02R96, which is
really not quite enough to make me really happy but I make do with it
pretty well.

Perhaps you don't have years of experience of being hands-on with
equipment with that level of flexibility so you don't know what you might
be missing..

That you probably rearely meet concert-grade guitars? (I'm not talking
about off-the-shelf instrumets.)

I'm not optimitisic enough to believe that an instrument's sound quality
through a live sound system is just about the instrument. Hank, haven't
you noticed that sonic coloration is possible at many steps in the
reproduction process? That's why they call them equalizers - one of their
more important purposes is to equalize out the system's colorations that
affect the reproduced sound's quality as it travels through the system.

I have a lot of respect for the sound that the musican wants, so I listen
to that and then do what I can to come as close to it as I can in the
paying seats. It doesn't always come easy.

You haven't admitted it yet Hank, but I'm right in presuming that you
can't play on stage and listen in the seats at the same time, right? ;-)
That's the advantage of being a mixer man - I can walk up to the stage
during rehearsal and listen to you play, and/or listen to any sample
songs you bring along. Then I can sneak out into the seating area during
the concent and make sure that the sound there is as close to what I heard
on stage as I can make it. You've got to keep on playing, right?

FWIW, I often hear what the console heard, after the fact, in my control
room, it having been captured by the MH 2882, taken directly from a
console's post-preamp pre-EQ output.

Interesting concept - consoles that hear. I'm of the opinion that people
hear,while the best equipment can do is reproduce sound. ;-)

That said, I do prefer the sound of the Schoeps CMC6 w/Mk4 or the JW
mod'd AKG C462's.

To me, the sounic coloration of mics is an unavoidable distraction that
needs to be managed. It is the sound of the instrument as it is played or
the sound that the musican would like to emulate that is to me, of the
essence. Besides, I am obliged to work with both acoustical guitars and
that other kind of guitar as well. So, many of the guitars I work with
don't use mics.


Arny, you're coming off as being really smarmy, creepy nasty, unpleasant.
Stop it.

Steve King

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Steve King" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message

Arny, you're coming off as being really smarmy, creepy nasty, unpleasant.
Stop it.

So says a guy who has made no on-topic contributions to this thread. It's
fun getting chewed out by someone who is so obviously completely lacking in
self-awareness.;-)

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Steve King" wrote in message
...


Arny, you're coming off as being really smarmy, creepy nasty, unpleasant.
Stop it.

Not only that Steve, but you thought so much of your off-topic insults that
you made a point out of making the same obviously unintentionally
self-deprecatory post twice!

LOL!

[Nate Najar]

On Monday, December 19, 2011 5:08:04 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Nate Najar wrote:
Hank,

I've been clipping a dpa 4061 on the soundhole and feeding that to FOH along with the DI signal and it is working fantastic btw....

Recently I wound up having to stick a wireless mike onto a dreadnought with
only an hour's notice, and all the PA crew had were some Shure wireless packs
with cardioid lav heads. I spent some time with some gaff tape moving it
around and found a place about an inch below the bottom fret that had
surprisingly good balances. Didn't have to notch a damn thing either, which
shocked me... it just went out over nationwide TV with a little low end EQ.

Sticking the mike into the soundhole has never seemed to work well for me
even to just get a little low end to mix with an external mike, but body
mikes can sometimes work great if you can find the right place.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The mic's do not work "in" the soundhole, you're absolutely right. the little tie clip for the dpa 4061, when clipped tot he soundhole, puts the mic just under the last part of the fingerboard, probably in the same general spot where you put yours. I remove the grid to flatten the response. since there's no proximity effect on the omni, it comes out super natura.

N

[hank alrich]

Nate Najar wrote:

Hank,

I've been clipping a dpa 4061 on the soundhole and feeding that to FOH
along with the DI signal and it is working fantastic btw....

Yes, I provided SR for a Dougie Maclean concert some years ago and he
used a small Sony omni attached to the soundhole with a bracket he made
of romex-type cable. It sounded terrific in that context, where he used
no stage monitors and played rather gently in a fingerpicking style.

I'd smack that little sucker silly with a flatpick. g The variety of
material we've been playing runs from somewhat the same type of fairly
gentle fingerpicking (though I generally chickenpick) to pretty stout
rhythmic flogging.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Steve King" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message

Arny, you're coming off as being really smarmy, creepy nasty, unpleasant.
Stop it.

So says a guy who has made no on-topic contributions to this thread. It's
fun getting chewed out by someone who is so obviously completely lacking in
self-awareness.;-)

You must be talking to yourself again.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Nate Najar wrote:
Hank,

I've been clipping a dpa 4061 on the soundhole and feeding that to FOH
along with the DI signal and it is working fantastic btw....

Recently I wound up having to stick a wireless mike onto a dreadnought with
only an hour's notice, and all the PA crew had were some Shure wireless packs
with cardioid lav heads. I spent some time with some gaff tape moving it
around and found a place about an inch below the bottom fret that had
surprisingly good balances. Didn't have to notch a damn thing either, which
shocked me... it just went out over nationwide TV with a little low end EQ.

Sticking the mike into the soundhole has never seemed to work well for me
even to just get a little low end to mix with an external mike, but body
mikes can sometimes work great if you can find the right place.

Soundhole placement generally sucks IME, especially with directional
mics, though seemingly a majority of the acoustic guitarists I see use
that approach. An omni there can work okay, though for me personally
that's out of the question for the reason I listed in another reply
here.

My favorite mic placement for our gutiars in a live setting is just off
the bottom of the lower bout, angled upwardly and inwardly and aimed at
the bridge. That seems to hear most of the instrument, avoids the
soundhole, and with a cardioid mic, has the null pointed in the
direction of the floor monitors,

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Steve King" wrote in message
...


Arny, you're coming off as being really smarmy, creepy nasty, unpleasant.
Stop it.

Not only that Steve, but you thought so much of your off-topic insults that
you made a point out of making the same obviously unintentionally
self-deprecatory post twice!

LOL!

He's brining it to you in stereo, and spades.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[PStamler]

On Dec 20, 12:15*am, (hank alrich) wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Nate Najar wrote:
Hank,

I've been clipping a dpa 4061 on the soundhole and feeding that to FOH
along with the DI signal and it is working fantastic btw....

Recently I wound up having to stick a wireless mike onto a dreadnought with
only an hour's notice, and all the PA crew had were some Shure wireless packs
with cardioid lav heads. *I spent some time with some gaff tape moving it
around and found a place about an inch below the bottom fret that had
surprisingly good balances. *Didn't have to notch a damn thing either, which
shocked me... it just went out over nationwide TV with a little low end EQ.

Sticking the mike into the soundhole has never seemed to work well for me
even to just get a little low end to mix with an external mike, but body
mikes can sometimes work great if you can find the right place.

Soundhole placement generally sucks IME, especially with directional
mics, though seemingly a majority of the acoustic guitarists I see use
that approach. An omni there can work okay, though for me personally
that's out of the question for the reason I listed in another reply
here.

I've had my best luck, on my particular guitar (a 00-18), sticking the
omni mini-mic to the brace under the fingerboard, just below the high
E string. It's attached with a wad of 3M Strip-Calk, and the
conduction into the mic makes a good deal of the sound. It puts a bit
more of a "smile" curve on the guitar than I like, but I can tame that
by turning down the treble EQ and using a highpass on the bottom.
Sounds pretty clean, and it's fairly good at avoiding feedback.

Peace,
Paul

[Nate Najar]

Paul, can you email me a photo?

Natenajar at me dot com....

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Steve King" wrote in message
...


Arny, you're coming off as being really smarmy, creepy nasty,
unpleasant.
Stop it.

Not only that Steve, but you thought so much of your off-topic insults
that
you made a point out of making the same obviously unintentionally
self-deprecatory post twice!

LOL!

He's brining it to you in stereo, and spades.

You and he are trying to recreate AAPLS on RAP.

Sorry guys, but I got a busy holiday season to mix.

[Ty Ford]

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:01:06 -0500, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ) :

Hank, what would you know about how *you* sound 30 rows back, in the middle
of the hall during the performance? If you've figured out how to play on the
stage and sit and listen carefully in the middle of the audience at the same
time, let me suggest that there is a great career available to you as an
stage magician. ;-)

Somewhere I heard about a guitar player that uses one of the Boss loop pedals
during setup to record a guitar riff. He then goes out into the house to hear
what the PA is doing to it.

Of course a room full of people will change that to some degree, but it's not
a bad starting spot.

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Ty Ford]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 01:15:28 -0500, hank alrich wrote
(in article ):

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Nate Najar wrote:
Hank,

I've been clipping a dpa 4061 on the soundhole and feeding that to FOH
along with the DI signal and it is working fantastic btw....

Recently I wound up having to stick a wireless mike onto a dreadnought with
only an hour's notice, and all the PA crew had were some Shure wireless
packs
with cardioid lav heads. I spent some time with some gaff tape moving it
around and found a place about an inch below the bottom fret that had
surprisingly good balances. Didn't have to notch a damn thing either, which
shocked me... it just went out over nationwide TV with a little low end EQ.

Sticking the mike into the soundhole has never seemed to work well for me
even to just get a little low end to mix with an external mike, but body
mikes can sometimes work great if you can find the right place.

Soundhole placement generally sucks IME, especially with directional
mics, though seemingly a majority of the acoustic guitarists I see use
that approach. An omni there can work okay, though for me personally
that's out of the question for the reason I listed in another reply
here.

My favorite mic placement for our gutiars in a live setting is just off
the bottom of the lower bout, angled upwardly and inwardly and aimed at
the bridge. That seems to hear most of the instrument, avoids the
soundhole, and with a cardioid mic, has the null pointed in the
direction of the floor monitors,


About the clipped on omni..don't stand next to the drummer or tambourine. And
if you sing loud while playing or have floor wedges, all of that ends up in
the omni.

Regards,

Ty Ford



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Arkansan Raider]

hank alrich wrote:
Nate Najar wrote:

Hank,

I've been clipping a dpa 4061 on the soundhole and feeding that to FOH
along with the DI signal and it is working fantastic btw....

Yes, I provided SR for a Dougie Maclean concert some years ago and he
used a small Sony omni attached to the soundhole with a bracket he made
of romex-type cable. It sounded terrific in that context, where he used
no stage monitors and played rather gently in a fingerpicking style.

I'd smack that little sucker silly with a flatpick. g The variety of
material we've been playing runs from somewhat the same type of fairly
gentle fingerpicking (though I generally chickenpick) to pretty stout
rhythmic flogging.


LOL @ Hank the Punisher. Nice use of vocabulary, dude.

---Jeff

[hank alrich]

PStamler wrote:

On Dec 20, 12:15 am, (hank alrich) wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Nate Najar wrote:
Hank,

I've been clipping a dpa 4061 on the soundhole and feeding that to FOH
along with the DI signal and it is working fantastic btw....

Recently I wound up having to stick a wireless mike onto a dreadnought
with only an hour's notice, and all the PA crew had were some Shure
wireless packs with cardioid lav heads. I spent some time with some
gaff tape moving it around and found a place about an inch below the
bottom fret that had surprisingly good balances. Didn't have to notch
a damn thing either, which shocked me... it just went out over
nationwide TV with a little low end EQ.

Sticking the mike into the soundhole has never seemed to work well for
me even to just get a little low end to mix with an external mike, but
body mikes can sometimes work great if you can find the right place.

Soundhole placement generally sucks IME, especially with directional
mics, though seemingly a majority of the acoustic guitarists I see use
that approach. An omni there can work okay, though for me personally
that's out of the question for the reason I listed in another reply
here.

I've had my best luck, on my particular guitar (a 00-18), sticking the
omni mini-mic to the brace under the fingerboard, just below the high
E string. It's attached with a wad of 3M Strip-Calk, and the
conduction into the mic makes a good deal of the sound. It puts a bit
more of a "smile" curve on the guitar than I like, but I can tame that
by turning down the treble EQ and using a highpass on the bottom.
Sounds pretty clean, and it's fairly good at avoiding feedback.

Peace,
Paul

I have on old Countryman omni that I've stuck under the fingerboard
extension of my F style mandolin and of a string bass, and gotten good
results with little EQ.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Ty Ford wrote:

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 01:15:28 -0500, hank alrich wrote
(in article ):

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Nate Najar wrote:
Hank,

I've been clipping a dpa 4061 on the soundhole and feeding that to FOH
along with the DI signal and it is working fantastic btw....

Recently I wound up having to stick a wireless mike onto a dreadnought
with only an hour's notice, and all the PA crew had were some Shure
wireless packs with cardioid lav heads. I spent some time with some
gaff tape moving it around and found a place about an inch below the
bottom fret that had surprisingly good balances. Didn't have to notch
a damn thing either, which shocked me... it just went out over
nationwide TV with a little low end EQ.

Sticking the mike into the soundhole has never seemed to work well for
me even to just get a little low end to mix with an external mike, but
body mikes can sometimes work great if you can find the right place.

Soundhole placement generally sucks IME, especially with directional
mics, though seemingly a majority of the acoustic guitarists I see use
that approach. An omni there can work okay, though for me personally
that's out of the question for the reason I listed in another reply
here.

My favorite mic placement for our gutiars in a live setting is just off
the bottom of the lower bout, angled upwardly and inwardly and aimed at
the bridge. That seems to hear most of the instrument, avoids the
soundhole, and with a cardioid mic, has the null pointed in the
direction of the floor monitors,


About the clipped on omni..don't stand next to the drummer or tambourine. And
if you sing loud while playing or have floor wedges, all of that ends up in
the omni.

All true, and that's why it worked for Maclean - solo player and no
stage monitors.


--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Steve King" wrote in message
...


Arny, you're coming off as being really smarmy, creepy nasty,
unpleasant.
Stop it.

Not only that Steve, but you thought so much of your off-topic insults
that
you made a point out of making the same obviously unintentionally
self-deprecatory post twice!

LOL!

He's brining it to you in stereo, and spades.

You and he are trying to recreate AAPLS on RAP.

Examine who typed the most...

Sorry guys, but I got a busy holiday season to mix.

Happy Holidaze, Arny.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Ty Ford wrote:

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:01:06 -0500, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ) :

Hank, what would you know about how *you* sound 30 rows back, in the middle
of the hall during the performance? If you've figured out how to play on the
stage and sit and listen carefully in the middle of the audience at the same
time, let me suggest that there is a great career available to you as an
stage magician. ;-)

Somewhere I heard about a guitar player that uses one of the Boss loop pedals
during setup to record a guitar riff. He then goes out into the house to hear
what the PA is doing to it.

Of course a room full of people will change that to some degree, but it's not
a bad starting spot.

I played upright bass with an acoustic swing quintet for 18 years, and
mixed every show from the stage. Soundcraft 200SEQ, Crest amps, Meyer
UPA's, Bag End floor cabs. Audients consistently praised how great we
sounded. We said, "Thank you".


--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...

Examine who typed the most...

Examine those who posted *only* personal attacks...

[Ralph Barone]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Steve King" wrote in message
...


Arny, you're coming off as being really smarmy, creepy nasty, unpleasant.
Stop it.

Not only that Steve, but you thought so much of your off-topic insults that
you made a point out of making the same obviously unintentionally
self-deprecatory post twice!

LOL!

Arny, I do believe that you have been a bit snarky recently. My first
thought was that someone else was impersonating you and doing some
subtle character assassination. I do hope that this isn't a DIY job.

[hank alrich]

Arkansan Raider wrote:

hank alrich wrote:
Nate Najar wrote:

Hank,

I've been clipping a dpa 4061 on the soundhole and feeding that to FOH
along with the DI signal and it is working fantastic btw....

Yes, I provided SR for a Dougie Maclean concert some years ago and he
used a small Sony omni attached to the soundhole with a bracket he made
of romex-type cable. It sounded terrific in that context, where he used
no stage monitors and played rather gently in a fingerpicking style.

I'd smack that little sucker silly with a flatpick. g The variety of
material we've been playing runs from somewhat the same type of fairly
gentle fingerpicking (though I generally chickenpick) to pretty stout
rhythmic flogging.


LOL @ Hank the Punisher. Nice use of vocabulary, dude.

---Jeff

Thank you, thank you. g

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[PStamler]

On Dec 20, 3:38*am, Nate Najar wrote:
Paul, can you email me a photo?

Natenajar at me dot com....

Unfortunately I can't at the moment (no access to the camera), but
when things open up again I'll see what I can do.

Peace,
Paul

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:

hank alrich" wrote in message
...

Maybe you can figure out that you haven't ever worked with the Red
Eye?

No doubt, but I'm not optimistic enough think that its one fixed Q,
fixed frequency filter is as flexible as more filters of various Q's
at various frequencies in other ranges.

Try trusting the musical instrument operator to be right when he says "It is
A OK as it is".

Supplementary: It is a broken concept to want to put sound production @the
player, if complex precision EQ is required then it should be a soundboard
operator task.

Good concert sound in my experience from a consert sound and rental company
comes from doing nothing or next to nothing at all because of not having to
do something.

Back in CSR days, once we had the JBL rig and later the JBL+Martin rig
working and good microphones on stage the event crews changed default
work-mode with the FOH mix to adjust input gain and channel volume + if
required a send or two.

If there is a vendor of this contraption present, then do send me mail,
thanks, it is not a priority item, but I think I'm gonna need having one.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
k...
Arny Krueger wrote:

hank alrich" wrote in message
...

Maybe you can figure out that you haven't ever worked with the Red
Eye?

No doubt, but I'm not optimistic enough think that its one fixed Q,
fixed frequency filter is as flexible as more filters of various Q's
at various frequencies in other ranges.

Try trusting the musical instrument operator to be right when he says "It
is A OK as it is".

Been there, done that with highly variable results. General rule - if the
instrumentalist is highly experienced, it can work, If the instrumentalist
is a soloist or working in a small group that he is very familiar with it
can work. However, if you try that strategy with a large group, a "pick up"
group, and/or lesser experienced players, be ready for just about anything
to happen. Mostly its not good.

Supplementary: It is a broken concept to want to put sound production @the
player, if complex precision EQ is required then it should be a soundboard
operator task.

Agreed.

Good concert sound in my experience from a consert sound and rental
company comes from doing nothing or next to nothing at all because of not
having to do something.

Agreed. Unfortunately, one may have a great deal to do.

The last event I did involved four musicans that had never played in concert
together. Individually they were pretty good. Setup was frustrating and a
good balance was not obtained during the rehearsal. It evolved that besides
never working together before, they also had never worked very much with
stage wedges. They couldn't hear the wedges because they ran their own
instrument amps so loud.

Eventually, after a certain amount of knob turning as the actual concert
progressed, I got them to sound pretty good. Then several of them turned
their instrument amps up quite a bit. Then their supporters in the audience
walked back and complained that they couldn't hear their voices well enough.
Since they were acting on their own, I had no idea whether they wanted the
loudness of their voices to track the changes they made to their instrument
amps or not. Eventually, after a certain amount of additonal knob turning as
the actual concert continued to progress, I got them to sound pretty good.

What was wrong with this picture?

[hank alrich]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
k...
Arny Krueger wrote:

hank alrich" wrote in message
...

Maybe you can figure out that you haven't ever worked with the Red
Eye?

No doubt, but I'm not optimistic enough think that its one fixed Q,
fixed frequency filter is as flexible as more filters of various Q's
at various frequencies in other ranges.

Try trusting the musical instrument operator to be right when he says "It
is A OK as it is".

Been there, done that with highly variable results. General rule - if the
instrumentalist is highly experienced, it can work, If the instrumentalist
is a soloist or working in a small group that he is very familiar with it
can work. However, if you try that strategy with a large group, a "pick up"
group, and/or lesser experienced players, be ready for just about anything
to happen. Mostly its not good.

Supplementary: It is a broken concept to want to put sound production @the
player, if complex precision EQ is required then it should be a soundboard
operator task.

Agreed.

Good concert sound in my experience from a consert sound and rental
company comes from doing nothing or next to nothing at all because of not
having to do something.

Agreed. Unfortunately, one may have a great deal to do.

The last event I did involved four musicans that had never played in concert
together. Individually they were pretty good. Setup was frustrating and a
good balance was not obtained during the rehearsal. It evolved that besides
never working together before, they also had never worked very much with
stage wedges. They couldn't hear the wedges because they ran their own
instrument amps so loud.

Eventually, after a certain amount of knob turning as the actual concert
progressed, I got them to sound pretty good. Then several of them turned
their instrument amps up quite a bit. Then their supporters in the audience
walked back and complained that they couldn't hear their voices well enough.
Since they were acting on their own, I had no idea whether they wanted the
loudness of their voices to track the changes they made to their instrument
amps or not. Eventually, after a certain amount of additonal knob turning as
the actual concert continued to progress, I got them to sound pretty good.

What was wrong with this picture?

In our case, no instrument amps, and stage monitors volumes low enough
to suprise the system operator. When the aux knob feeding the previous
artists has been hanging around the 5 to 7 region, we'll be asking for
the 2 to 3 region. Sometimes, when I realize the operator is borderline
clueless I ask that the stage monitors feeds be turned to 0 before we
begin, to be raised very slowly as we work toward our desired levels and
balance on stage.

If there are two wedges, Shaidri and I want them feeding us identical
mixes. We focus on our balance, both vocally and instrumentally.

The Red Eye works better with passive piezo pickups than any other
device I've used for the purpose. It also works very well with other
types of passive pickups, across the spectrum of hollow and solid body
electric guitars and basses.

It's a hit or miss thing with active systems, and I try to discourage
folks from buying one if that's what they're using. Andrew Hardin has a
UST in one of his Collings, with built-in preamp, and in his case the
Red Eye works better than other pres he's used.

I do understand that a myriad of issues arrive with inexperienced, or
even experienced but ignorant performers. We see the other side of that
coin, too, particularly since many younger sound system operators have
little or no experience with acoustic sources. We do like to use mics
along with the pickups, but logistics of traveling, variation in systems
and venues, and a hit-or-miss situation with operators often makes that
impractical and/or self-defeating.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

hank alrich" wrote in message
...

Maybe you can figure out that you haven't ever worked with the Red
Eye?

No doubt, but I'm not optimistic enough think that its one fixed Q,
fixed frequency filter is as flexible as more filters of various Q's
at various frequencies in other ranges.

Try trusting the musical instrument operator to be right when he says "It is
A OK as it is".

Supplementary: It is a broken concept to want to put sound production @the
player, if complex precision EQ is required then it should be a soundboard
operator task.

Good concert sound in my experience from a consert sound and rental company
comes from doing nothing or next to nothing at all because of not having to
do something.

Back in CSR days, once we had the JBL rig and later the JBL+Martin rig
working and good microphones on stage the event crews changed default
work-mode with the FOH mix to adjust input gain and channel volume + if
required a send or two.

If there is a vendor of this contraption present, then do send me mail,
thanks, it is not a priority item, but I think I'm gonna need having one.

There's a list of vendors at the site.

http://www.fire-eye.com/

Note that I am listed as such, so the standard disclaimer would be
disingenuous here. That said, I tried not to become such, but as the
Tech Questions page there arose from questions I asked Daren Appelt I
eventually capitulated to his insistence that I deal the product from a
location closer to the West coast.

I sent him a long list of questions, because it was obvious to me that
while this device was superb, it was also pretty surprisngly different
from other such devices, and I knew that some folks to whom I would
recommend it would be curious about how and why it works so well.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Ty Ford]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:58:15 -0500, hank alrich wrote
(in article ):

I sent him a long list of questions, because it was obvious to me that while
this device was superb, it was also pretty surprisngly different from other
such devices, and I knew that some folks to whom I would recommend it would
be curious about how and why it works so well.

and then I got one....

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[hank alrich]

Ty Ford wrote:

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:58:15 -0500, hank alrich wrote
(in article ):

I sent him a long list of questions, because it was obvious to me that while
this device was superb, it was also pretty surprisngly different from other
such devices, and I knew that some folks to whom I would recommend it would
be curious about how and why it works so well.

and then I got one....

...and there went the neighborhood. Daren had no idea the trouble I'd be!

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri