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  #161   Report Post  
trotsky
 
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George M. Middius wrote:

Gurgling gluggily, Gregipus grumbles gaily.


Why do you think anybody is the least bit interested in answering your
asinine questions?




Quid pro quo, Georgie Porgie.



Oopsie! Unless your disease has debilitated you to an extreme degree,
you should be aware that I've asked my question about ten times now,
and you have yet to answer.

And no, you may not suck my dick.



George--all this talk about getting your dick sucked--were you actually
planning on having it reattached?

  #162   Report Post  
trotsky
 
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George M. Middius wrote:

Gay Gregipus minced:


And no, you may not suck my dick.




George--all



Inability



Yeah, this is effective.

  #163   Report Post  
trotsky
 
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George M. Middius wrote:

Gay Gregipus minced:


And no, you may not suck my dick.




George--all



Inability



Yeah, this is effective.

  #164   Report Post  
dave weil
 
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On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:51:40 -0600, dave weil
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:43:52 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:22:39 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


Of course, as $81 each, they should be better.


The scary thing is that you apparently seem to believe this, at least
when it benefits your argument.


Have you looked at the Silverflute graphs? They are terrible.
Compared to a good ScanSpeak or Morel tweeter($60 or so), not
even worth wasting your money on.


You missed the point entirely.

But what's new?

BTW, why don't you quantify what you mean by "terrible"? Relate it to
the other tweeters that you are commenting on.


Joe, did I miss your reply to this question?
  #165   Report Post  
dave weil
 
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On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:51:40 -0600, dave weil
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:43:52 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:22:39 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


Of course, as $81 each, they should be better.


The scary thing is that you apparently seem to believe this, at least
when it benefits your argument.


Have you looked at the Silverflute graphs? They are terrible.
Compared to a good ScanSpeak or Morel tweeter($60 or so), not
even worth wasting your money on.


You missed the point entirely.

But what's new?

BTW, why don't you quantify what you mean by "terrible"? Relate it to
the other tweeters that you are commenting on.


Joe, did I miss your reply to this question?


  #166   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
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dave weil wrote:

Have you looked at the Silverflute graphs? They are terrible.
Compared to a good ScanSpeak or Morel tweeter($60 or so), not
even worth wasting your money on.


You missed the point entirely.

But what's new?

BTW, why don't you quantify what you mean by "terrible"? Relate it to
the other tweeters that you are commenting on.



Joe, did I miss your reply to this question?


No, just that no matter what I say, you'll not believe it, so
we're at an impass.

  #167   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
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dave weil wrote:

Have you looked at the Silverflute graphs? They are terrible.
Compared to a good ScanSpeak or Morel tweeter($60 or so), not
even worth wasting your money on.


You missed the point entirely.

But what's new?

BTW, why don't you quantify what you mean by "terrible"? Relate it to
the other tweeters that you are commenting on.



Joe, did I miss your reply to this question?


No, just that no matter what I say, you'll not believe it, so
we're at an impass.

  #168   Report Post  
dave weil
 
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On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 22:43:14 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

Have you looked at the Silverflute graphs? They are terrible.
Compared to a good ScanSpeak or Morel tweeter($60 or so), not
even worth wasting your money on.

You missed the point entirely.

But what's new?

BTW, why don't you quantify what you mean by "terrible"? Relate it to
the other tweeters that you are commenting on.



Joe, did I miss your reply to this question?


No, just that no matter what I say, you'll not believe it, so
we're at an impass.


Nice copout.

I really *was* curious, since the graphs for Madisound seem to be in a
different format than the others.

So I take that you you'll stop your comments in that regard, since you
can't defend them, right?
  #169   Report Post  
dave weil
 
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On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 22:43:14 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

Have you looked at the Silverflute graphs? They are terrible.
Compared to a good ScanSpeak or Morel tweeter($60 or so), not
even worth wasting your money on.

You missed the point entirely.

But what's new?

BTW, why don't you quantify what you mean by "terrible"? Relate it to
the other tweeters that you are commenting on.



Joe, did I miss your reply to this question?


No, just that no matter what I say, you'll not believe it, so
we're at an impass.


Nice copout.

I really *was* curious, since the graphs for Madisound seem to be in a
different format than the others.

So I take that you you'll stop your comments in that regard, since you
can't defend them, right?
  #170   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
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dave weil wrote:


Nice copout.

I really *was* curious, since the graphs for Madisound seem to be in a
different format than the others.


I went to the manufacturer's sites for both - graphs there make sense.
The curves for those ribons are going to be a PITA to deal with
considering the horrible impedance vs frequency response.

I'd take a high-end silk dome tweeter anyday. Gheez - the first one that
Madisound lists is a whoppping 10db down at 20Khz frmo the midrange.



  #171   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
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dave weil wrote:


Nice copout.

I really *was* curious, since the graphs for Madisound seem to be in a
different format than the others.


I went to the manufacturer's sites for both - graphs there make sense.
The curves for those ribons are going to be a PITA to deal with
considering the horrible impedance vs frequency response.

I'd take a high-end silk dome tweeter anyday. Gheez - the first one that
Madisound lists is a whoppping 10db down at 20Khz frmo the midrange.

  #172   Report Post  
dave weil
 
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 07:38:11 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

dave weil wrote:


Nice copout.

I really *was* curious, since the graphs for Madisound seem to be in a
different format than the others.


I went to the manufacturer's sites for both - graphs there make sense.
The curves for those ribons are going to be a PITA to deal with
considering the horrible impedance vs frequency response.


Can you quantify what you mean by "horrible"? How do you come to this
conclusion?

I'd take a high-end silk dome tweeter anyday. Gheez - the first one that
Madisound lists is a whoppping 10db down at 20Khz frmo the midrange.


How does this differ from the, say, VIFA XT25TG30-04, a megabucks ring
tweeter?

They don't seem to label the different curves but there are several of
the curves that dip that much. The few tweeter graphs that I looked
at from ScanSpeak and VIFA all seemed to have the same sort of
downward tilt in the same sort of range of roughly 10dB, depending on
which curve you look at. It seems to me that due to the diffeent
testing methods and different graphing techniques used, it's like
comparing apples with oranges.
  #173   Report Post  
dave weil
 
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 07:38:11 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

dave weil wrote:


Nice copout.

I really *was* curious, since the graphs for Madisound seem to be in a
different format than the others.


I went to the manufacturer's sites for both - graphs there make sense.
The curves for those ribons are going to be a PITA to deal with
considering the horrible impedance vs frequency response.


Can you quantify what you mean by "horrible"? How do you come to this
conclusion?

I'd take a high-end silk dome tweeter anyday. Gheez - the first one that
Madisound lists is a whoppping 10db down at 20Khz frmo the midrange.


How does this differ from the, say, VIFA XT25TG30-04, a megabucks ring
tweeter?

They don't seem to label the different curves but there are several of
the curves that dip that much. The few tweeter graphs that I looked
at from ScanSpeak and VIFA all seemed to have the same sort of
downward tilt in the same sort of range of roughly 10dB, depending on
which curve you look at. It seems to me that due to the diffeent
testing methods and different graphing techniques used, it's like
comparing apples with oranges.
  #174   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
Posts: n/a
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dave weil wrote:

They don't seem to label the different curves but there are several of
the curves that dip that much. The few tweeter graphs that I looked
at from ScanSpeak and VIFA all seemed to have the same sort of
downward tilt in the same sort of range of roughly 10dB, depending on
which curve you look at. It seems to me that due to the diffeent
testing methods and different graphing techniques used, it's like
comparing apples with oranges.


Honestly, a lot of their drivers are not very good either.

I'm amazed at the cheap junk that most people pass off as quality,
including some very well known manufacturers. The litmus test
IMO of when to start being suspicious is when they are outsourcing.

That means China or wherever they can get something made for
$3 an hour.

  #175   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
Posts: n/a
Default

dave weil wrote:

They don't seem to label the different curves but there are several of
the curves that dip that much. The few tweeter graphs that I looked
at from ScanSpeak and VIFA all seemed to have the same sort of
downward tilt in the same sort of range of roughly 10dB, depending on
which curve you look at. It seems to me that due to the diffeent
testing methods and different graphing techniques used, it's like
comparing apples with oranges.


Honestly, a lot of their drivers are not very good either.

I'm amazed at the cheap junk that most people pass off as quality,
including some very well known manufacturers. The litmus test
IMO of when to start being suspicious is when they are outsourcing.

That means China or wherever they can get something made for
$3 an hour.



  #176   Report Post  
dave weil
 
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:31:59 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

They don't seem to label the different curves but there are several of
the curves that dip that much. The few tweeter graphs that I looked
at from ScanSpeak and VIFA all seemed to have the same sort of
downward tilt in the same sort of range of roughly 10dB, depending on
which curve you look at. It seems to me that due to the diffeent
testing methods and different graphing techniques used, it's like
comparing apples with oranges.


Honestly, a lot of their drivers are not very good either.


I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you now saying that
the very drivers that you claim are far better than the Silver Flutes
are now not very good either? What *do* you think is a good tweeter
then, other than the Hiquphon of course.

I'm amazed at the cheap junk that most people pass off as quality,
including some very well known manufacturers.


Well damn - now it's NOBODY (other than the above) makes a good
tweeter. Have I called your bluff or something?

I'm sorry to be so arch about this, but I really want to know how you
justify your previous comments.

You didn't address my direct questions, so I wonder if
maybe you were just talking to be slamming Greg, instead of addressing
the actual issues.

The litmus test IMO of when to start being suspicious is when they are outsourcing.


Like Tannoy, right? Do they manufacture all of their drivers?

That means China or wherever they can get something made for
$3 an hour.


Like Tannoy, right? Don't they source most of their drivers from
low-wage countries?
  #177   Report Post  
dave weil
 
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:31:59 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

They don't seem to label the different curves but there are several of
the curves that dip that much. The few tweeter graphs that I looked
at from ScanSpeak and VIFA all seemed to have the same sort of
downward tilt in the same sort of range of roughly 10dB, depending on
which curve you look at. It seems to me that due to the diffeent
testing methods and different graphing techniques used, it's like
comparing apples with oranges.


Honestly, a lot of their drivers are not very good either.


I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you now saying that
the very drivers that you claim are far better than the Silver Flutes
are now not very good either? What *do* you think is a good tweeter
then, other than the Hiquphon of course.

I'm amazed at the cheap junk that most people pass off as quality,
including some very well known manufacturers.


Well damn - now it's NOBODY (other than the above) makes a good
tweeter. Have I called your bluff or something?

I'm sorry to be so arch about this, but I really want to know how you
justify your previous comments.

You didn't address my direct questions, so I wonder if
maybe you were just talking to be slamming Greg, instead of addressing
the actual issues.

The litmus test IMO of when to start being suspicious is when they are outsourcing.


Like Tannoy, right? Do they manufacture all of their drivers?

That means China or wherever they can get something made for
$3 an hour.


Like Tannoy, right? Don't they source most of their drivers from
low-wage countries?
  #178   Report Post  
ScottW
 
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"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:31:59 GMT, Joseph Oberlander

The litmus test IMO of when to start being suspicious is when they are

outsourcing.

Like Tannoy, right? Do they manufacture all of their drivers?

That means China or wherever they can get something made for
$3 an hour.


Like Tannoy, right? Don't they source most of their drivers from
low-wage countries?


People need to get off the bs that everything made in China for $3
per day (not hour) is crap. Try setting up a manufacturing operation
in the US and get skilled labor for $8-12 per hour. You'll likely be
dealing
with different uneducated ethnic groups with severe language and reading
skill
deficiencies. In SD, we have Phillipinos, Hispanics, and Asians.
In manufacturing, we have to have separate english classes for the
Phillipinos
and Hispanics. The Asians are typically far better educated.

In China, they may be using uneducated labor but they have the advantage
of being able to specialty train due to the low labor cost. You train
a person to do one thing and do it very well. It simplifies the use of
uneducated labor tremendously.
Many contract manufacturers are setting up operations in China and
producing far more high tech products than speakers at very good
quality. People may bitch about it, but what do you think is keeping
inflation so low?

One other note, I can't find the reference, but I read China is now
graduating
more engineers than the rest of the entire world.

ScottW


  #179   Report Post  
ScottW
 
Posts: n/a
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"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:31:59 GMT, Joseph Oberlander

The litmus test IMO of when to start being suspicious is when they are

outsourcing.

Like Tannoy, right? Do they manufacture all of their drivers?

That means China or wherever they can get something made for
$3 an hour.


Like Tannoy, right? Don't they source most of their drivers from
low-wage countries?


People need to get off the bs that everything made in China for $3
per day (not hour) is crap. Try setting up a manufacturing operation
in the US and get skilled labor for $8-12 per hour. You'll likely be
dealing
with different uneducated ethnic groups with severe language and reading
skill
deficiencies. In SD, we have Phillipinos, Hispanics, and Asians.
In manufacturing, we have to have separate english classes for the
Phillipinos
and Hispanics. The Asians are typically far better educated.

In China, they may be using uneducated labor but they have the advantage
of being able to specialty train due to the low labor cost. You train
a person to do one thing and do it very well. It simplifies the use of
uneducated labor tremendously.
Many contract manufacturers are setting up operations in China and
producing far more high tech products than speakers at very good
quality. People may bitch about it, but what do you think is keeping
inflation so low?

One other note, I can't find the reference, but I read China is now
graduating
more engineers than the rest of the entire world.

ScottW


  #180   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ScottW wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:31:59 GMT, Joseph Oberlander


The litmus test IMO of when to start being suspicious is when they are


outsourcing.

Like Tannoy, right? Do they manufacture all of their drivers?


That means China or wherever they can get something made for
$3 an hour.


Like Tannoy, right? Don't they source most of their drivers from
low-wage countries?



People need to get off the bs that everything made in China for $3
per day (not hour) is crap. Try setting up a manufacturing operation
in the US and get skilled labor for $8-12 per hour. You'll likely be
dealing
with different uneducated ethnic groups with severe language and reading
skill
deficiencies. In SD, we have Phillipinos, Hispanics, and Asians.
In manufacturing, we have to have separate english classes for the
Phillipinos
and Hispanics. The Asians are typically far better educated.


Well, that's San Diego. Yeah, Los(t) Angeles is similar.

Good labor can be had. THey do it all the time in Japan and Europe,
and last I checked, it cost a lot more to live in there than in the
middle of nowhere, U.S. I hear Las Vegas is business friendly, cheap,
and has tons of labor lately.



  #181   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
Posts: n/a
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ScottW wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:31:59 GMT, Joseph Oberlander


The litmus test IMO of when to start being suspicious is when they are


outsourcing.

Like Tannoy, right? Do they manufacture all of their drivers?


That means China or wherever they can get something made for
$3 an hour.


Like Tannoy, right? Don't they source most of their drivers from
low-wage countries?



People need to get off the bs that everything made in China for $3
per day (not hour) is crap. Try setting up a manufacturing operation
in the US and get skilled labor for $8-12 per hour. You'll likely be
dealing
with different uneducated ethnic groups with severe language and reading
skill
deficiencies. In SD, we have Phillipinos, Hispanics, and Asians.
In manufacturing, we have to have separate english classes for the
Phillipinos
and Hispanics. The Asians are typically far better educated.


Well, that's San Diego. Yeah, Los(t) Angeles is similar.

Good labor can be had. THey do it all the time in Japan and Europe,
and last I checked, it cost a lot more to live in there than in the
middle of nowhere, U.S. I hear Las Vegas is business friendly, cheap,
and has tons of labor lately.

  #182   Report Post  
ScottW
 
Posts: n/a
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"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net...

Well, that's San Diego. Yeah, Los(t) Angeles is similar.

Good labor can be had. THey do it all the time in Japan and Europe,
and last I checked, it cost a lot more to live in there than in the
middle of nowhere, U.S. I hear Las Vegas is business friendly, cheap,
and has tons of labor lately.


The point was that you still pay more and don't necessarily get more
in higher product quality or productivity than in China.

ScottW


  #183   Report Post  
ScottW
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net...

Well, that's San Diego. Yeah, Los(t) Angeles is similar.

Good labor can be had. THey do it all the time in Japan and Europe,
and last I checked, it cost a lot more to live in there than in the
middle of nowhere, U.S. I hear Las Vegas is business friendly, cheap,
and has tons of labor lately.


The point was that you still pay more and don't necessarily get more
in higher product quality or productivity than in China.

ScottW


  #184   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ScottW wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net...

Well, that's San Diego. Yeah, Los(t) Angeles is similar.

Good labor can be had. THey do it all the time in Japan and Europe,
and last I checked, it cost a lot more to live in there than in the
middle of nowhere, U.S. I hear Las Vegas is business friendly, cheap,
and has tons of labor lately.



The point was that you still pay more and don't necessarily get more
in higher product quality or productivity than in China.


There's also the political and ideological differences.

I'm not in favor of re-education facilities, refusal to honor
copyrights and patents, and their stealing our technology from
us behind out backs. It's just as bad as it ever was, just that
they have learned how to put a nice bit of makeup on it.

  #185   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ScottW wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net...

Well, that's San Diego. Yeah, Los(t) Angeles is similar.

Good labor can be had. THey do it all the time in Japan and Europe,
and last I checked, it cost a lot more to live in there than in the
middle of nowhere, U.S. I hear Las Vegas is business friendly, cheap,
and has tons of labor lately.



The point was that you still pay more and don't necessarily get more
in higher product quality or productivity than in China.


There's also the political and ideological differences.

I'm not in favor of re-education facilities, refusal to honor
copyrights and patents, and their stealing our technology from
us behind out backs. It's just as bad as it ever was, just that
they have learned how to put a nice bit of makeup on it.

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