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#41
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Thanks for the detailed description, Richard.
I will admit that I have greatly reduced my patronage of ebay and in fact have not implemented my plan to sell a lot of stuff on that system as it has become larger, less responsive and increasingly coercive. You will understand that I cannot comment further on my friend's departure from the company. (Not that I know very much more than anyone else.) This seems not to apply to you, but I still think it wise to be a little skeptical of those who rail too long and too loudly at the dishonesty of everyone else. Norm "Richard Steinfeld" wrotf: "norml" wrote in message .. . | "Richard Steinfeld" wrotf: | | eBay's public mouthpiece is a former public radio host turned a | government mouthpiece, and now eBay's. He claims, in innocence, | that there are thousands of successful transactions every day, | and why, eBay "is only a venue." | | While not technically untrue, this is a mean-spirited description of the | man, whom I personally know to be of impeccable integrity. | | And, FWIW, he left ebay last September. I know nothing of his successors. | Norm, I know you used to work with him. I protected his identity as I am still doing. And I used to respect him (I won't mention names). I understand your kind feelings for him. In years past, you both did a good program every day. With the replacement host, it is sitll a really great radio program. But I was distressed to hear how he responded to the complaints that came in when he appeared in the eBay capacity on the radio. The complaints are very legitimate. In fact, I wonder if you were on the board that day, so you may recall it. I have read, repeatedly, that the largest class of complaints to the FTC for the last few years have been about being cheated in on-line auction transactions. In other words, a really great number of people have been ripped off via on-line auctions. That means eBay. I maintain that internet auction seller ripoffs are a plague. Your friend, as eBay had done before he'd gone to work for them, presented the same response: things are just fine. They aren't. I think that our man really wasn't as experienced as many of the actual buyers and sellers. Further, I am pleased that you wrote that he'd left. I submit that he is too good for this company! | Are you, BTW, contending that there are NOT "thousands of successful | transactions every day?" With one picayune exception, my ebay | disappointments have been caused only by clueless packers not unscrupulous | schemers. | No. There are indeed thousands of successful eBay transactions daily. There are many honest sellers. | I am a little sceptical of those here who claim loudly and often to have | been cheated. But, Norm, with all due respect for you, too, I want to point out that the experiences that I had were as I stated. I found that eBay threw obstacle after obstacle in my path, one self-help hurdle after another, "help" sequences that after a number of steps, returned the user right back to the beginning. They bloody wear you out, Norm. You are given stage after stage of generalized "advice" to use in the attempt to solve the problem without ruffling their feathers. Have you actually been through the sequence all the way through attempting to obtain an "insurance" refund through eBay? Sometimes the path is successful. Sometimes not. William made out OK, after the deductable. I did not. I have attempted to communicate with eBay many times. I have yet to receive an answer that wasn't boilerplate, and rarely has one of those boilerplate answers been squarely about what I wrote about. Can you discuss anything on the phone with them? One's fingers can get mighty tired. Remember, you can't post an actual message to anyone until you have plowed through page after page of autooated FAQs. You can't, for example, fire off an email to an email address because you can only initiate an email via the self-help slog. You've gotta play the game all the way through at considerable cost of your own time (not theirs). When I asked my witness to produce yet a third letter of verification, he blew up in rage and refused. I'd already submitted two letters he'd written to eBay; each time they politely refused to accept it: they rejected his letter the first time because it was on disk, not on paper; they rejected his letter the second time because it was on paper, but not on printed letterhead. Their requirements for accepting documentation of fraud were not spelled out in advance; the submissions were only rejected after I'd gone through each step in turn. First, you and the seller have to go through a 30-day purgatory. During this time, you and the seller yell at each other. In my case, the seller had told me that I was a fool to expect that "mint" meant anything other than "used." ("You have bought a used CD player in mint condition. Everything sold on eBay is used.") Then you submit the claim. And wait. Let's run through the second part of this script in a bit more detail this time. Let's say that you've asked your friend Harry to sign a statement that he has seen that the CD player that was advertised as "Mint" is, in fact, scratched, scuffed, and filthy, that the loading door is mindlessly going in and out, that the remote control is coated with a thick, wide blob of adhesive glop. You send the letter on a disk, with photos you've painstakenly taken, paper copies of the auction listing and all correspondence to eBay in Salt Lake City. Your proof is a slam dunk: the seller has lied. And they reject the whole thing because they won't put a floppy disk into their computer. It is the year 2003, and eBay, a superbly computerized operation, will only accept paper photographs. I didn't make this up. My experience with them was that when there's a problem, their systems are user-hostile. Perhaps this has been improved since then. I've already done approximately 50 transactions on eBay. And, yes, most bad received merchandise has been due to bad packing, as you said. Unfortunately, I stand by everything that I wrote. The CD player example I've been talking about is my own: the scuffed, scratched, filthy "Mint" product with a loading door going in and out nonstop. I do not think that this company is willing to give adequate help to people who have been cheated in the system that they've set up. They do a fine job protecting their own interests, however, and buying up and crushing any competition. Reminds me of Rockefeller and Microsoft. Sorry, Norm: that's what I see and that's what I've experienced. Your friend did not help dispell the illusion and experience of many people. Luckily, I was able to clean the machine with a lot of work and alcohol. The scratches and scuffs remain. I was able to clean and relubricate the complicated loading door mechanism. The door, of course, would still benefit from a "mint" belt like what I paid for. And the machine sounds good. But the fact remains that I was cheated and that eBay did a fine job of wearing out the buyer. In the other case in my earlier post, the seller was hiding behind totally bogus contact information. That's a clear eBay address violation, right? Wrong: they accused me of wanting to pull out after winning with a stern notice. Regarding the issue of mispacking damage, here's what happened. Between myself and a few other people I'd corresponded with, I noted that I had either bought or knew about 18 turntables purchased on eBay: every one of them damaged due to mispacking. So I wrote to eBay about this epidemic of broken turntables. I suggested that they send an automated email to all listers of turntables with packing instructions. They have the technology to do this; I also figured that they would care. You know what they did: nothing, Norm. Didn't even have the courtesy to answer me. Right into the trash. Hit the delete button. Regarding business practices, I found and bought on a competing auction site three times. I was happy to find an alternative. But eBay sued them for name infringement, and sued them again after they'd changed their name. That company is a ghost now. I used a competing payment service. eBay bought up that service and promptly shut it down. There comes a point at which the behavior of the 900-pound gorilla becomes very clear. As much as I respect you, I must disagree in this case. I know what I've gone through and what I've witnessed. I cannot regard this company as a good corporate citizen: there's a fig leaf of responsibility, but that fig leaf is etched very clearly. Yet, it has been useful. I am grateful to have been able to purchase certain items that I never though I'd ever be able to find again during my lifetime: wonderful historic audio treasures. I still use the service from time to time, a lot less than earlier. Why? Because it is the only game in town. You play that game or you don't play at all. That's the way it is. I hope that I have presented a more fleshed-out explanation this time, Norm. In the beginning, I really had hope for this venue. I wanted eBay to be a success; I wanted everyone to play by the rules. I wanted eBay to police their "community" and keep things fair. I wanted the company to behave in an enlightened manner, in the spirit of what they'd created and in the spirit of the message that they put out (Safe Harbor and all that). Now, sadly, it's just, "Buyer beware." Richard |
#42
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MR NO SPAM wrote:
.... | One thing I do, is IF NEEDED - take a photo of the money order receipt being | sent to seller or of the shipping receipt if to a buyer and if any questions | arise, send them the photos. I also provide any tracking numbers. Maybe this | isn't a cure all for all woes of E-Bay sales, but it sure has worked for me. | MNS. I assume that who you mean by "them" is eBay. That's exactly what I sent eBay, along with the photos of the product. This wasn't just a case of a cordial or friendly misunderstanding: the seller blatently lied in his listing. eBay refused to look a my evidence, which I mailed on a floppy disk. Richard |
#43
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"norml" wrote in message ... | Thanks for the detailed description, Richard. | I felt that it was neccessary for me to trot all this out to explain what was behind my statements. | I will admit that I have greatly reduced my patronage of ebay and in fact | have not implemented my plan to sell a lot of stuff on that system as it | has become larger, less responsive and increasingly coercive. | | You will understand that I cannot comment further on my friend's departure | from the company. (Not that I know very much more than anyone else.) | | This seems not to apply to you, but I still think it wise to be a little | skeptical of those who rail too long and too loudly at the dishonesty of | everyone else. | | Norm Thanks for that perspective, Norm. Yes, I understand about KP. I'm sorry that you don't want to sell your stuff via eBay, but I can understand that, too. Unfortunately, I don't know of any alternative, since there just aren't any competing auction sites that I've seen. Amazon seems to be dealer-only. Yahoo, to me, is an unpleasant outfit to get involved with. So, I am planning on unloading a few items on eBay myself. I'm prepared for a learning curve and to gird my loins. One can have some interesting conversations with the other party in an eBay transaction. For example, I bought my Fourier speakers from a guy in Florida. After I'd paid him, I couldn't resist asking him why he bought them in the first place. I really wanted to know (I forgot to ask him why he sold them!). His answer was, "I heard them and I had to have them." And that was my thought in 1985 or so, when I sold a pair to a customer: "I'm going to hate anyone I sell these to unless I own a pair myself." For those of you who have been following this exchange, let me just say that I ordered myself a pair in 1985. There followed a fire in the loft above the Fourier rooms; the firemen got water into everything, destroying all the custom-made Fourier 6" woofers. The company didn't last much longer; I managed to get my hands on the final product just in time: the purpose-designed studio monitors. I never thought I'd ever see a pair of Fourier 6s again, and one day, there they were on eBay. eBay is outstanding when you are looking for a needle in a haystack. It is also good when you're the one selling the needle. However, I also believe in alternatives being essential to capitalism; when the 900-pound gorilla ensures that they have a monopoly, and there is no regulatory mechanism to help right that power, we're in trouble. Perhaps, having spilled all that bile, I should start a "good company" thread. OK. I will. Richard |
#44
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Richard Steinfeld wrote:
misunderstanding: the seller blatently lied in his listing. eBay refused to look a my evidence, which I mailed on a floppy disk. Richard Richard, If I sent YOU a floppy disk would you stick it in your computer and run it? -BM |
#45
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I assume that who you mean by "them" is eBay. That's
exactly what I sent eBay, along with the photos of the product. This wasn't just a case of a cordial or friendly misunderstanding: the seller blatently lied in his listing. eBay refused to look a my evidence, which I mailed on a floppy disk. eBay expects you to go through their bureaucratic process. I did, and got back a fair chunk of the money I spent for a defective product. |
#46
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In rec.antiques.radio+phono - - Bill - - wrote:
If I sent YOU a floppy disk would you stick it in your computer and run it? The idea to _run_ a floppy disk... People who tink of inserting a floppy-disk as 'running' should indeed not do 'complicated' tasks like activating a virus scanner, opening an explorer, and having a look at the _data_ on the floppy. Please search for the word 'run' appearing anywhere in the last sequence... 0 occurences. --- Met vriendelijke groet, Maarten Bakker. |
#47
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#48
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In rec.antiques.radio+phono - - Bill - - wrote:
activating a virus scanner, opening an explorer, and having a look at the _data_ on the floppy. Please search for the word 'run' appearing anywhere in the last sequence... 0 occurences. Martin, you clearly missed the intent of my post. Instead of focusing on the three-letter word 'run' the point was that they cannot be expected to maintain a staff of virus analysts to routinely do all the 'complicated' tasks you mention just because people send them a diskette out of the clear blue. Thats why they ask for paper that the typical office staff can manage. Simple. Opening an envelope without cutting your fingers can be difficult as well :-) My point being that the virus-scanner should already be installed and running, opening an explorer window is the same as cutting open an envelope, viewing the files is the same as viewing the papers. For an online-service, this is not too much to ask from their office staff. --- Met vriendelijke groet, Maarten Bakker. |
#49
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Maybe...maybe that's why FMTC uses an another service provider to offer
mail, obviously newsgroups, and virus filtering/spam filtering. They no longer filter viruses in outgoing last I heard so I have my computer up-to-date (automatically). Maybe this Lutrell guy is from the Russian mob : ) wrote in message ... In rec.antiques.radio+phono - - Bill - - wrote: activating a virus scanner, opening an explorer, and having a look at the _data_ on the floppy. Please search for the word 'run' appearing anywhere in the last sequence... 0 occurences. Martin, you clearly missed the intent of my post. Instead of focusing on the three-letter word 'run' the point was that they cannot be expected to maintain a staff of virus analysts to routinely do all the 'complicated' tasks you mention just because people send them a diskette out of the clear blue. Thats why they ask for paper that the typical office staff can manage. Simple. Opening an envelope without cutting your fingers can be difficult as well :-) My point being that the virus-scanner should already be installed and running, opening an explorer window is the same as cutting open an envelope, viewing the files is the same as viewing the papers. For an online-service, this is not too much to ask from their office staff. --- Met vriendelijke groet, Maarten Bakker. |
#50
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- - Bill - - wrote:
| Richard, | If I sent YOU a floppy disk would you stick it in your | computer and run it? | | -BM Sure, Bill. No problem. I have a few security routines running on my computer. I've taken good self-protection measures in advance. I became rigorous about this after bringing home viruses from The Phone Company (a virus cesspool) and infecting both computers at home. This happened twice, and it took over 9 hours of work each time to fix up the machines. That's back when you had your choice of McAfee or nothing. And, let's get real. eBay can, of course, have one special non-networked computer in the corner of a room in Salt Lake City just for looking at floppies that customers send in. They can use the same antivirus software that I do. In other words, their policy is just so much bureaucratic BS. Richard |
#51
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#52
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Richard Steinfeld wrote:
And, let's get real. eBay can, of course, have one special non-networked computer in the corner of a room in Salt Lake City just for looking at floppies that customers send in. They can use the same antivirus software that I do. In other words, their policy is just so much bureaucratic BS. Richard Of course all of that is true. But when a corporate entity is dealing with 100 million potential complainers they do tend to adopt a rather rigid methodology to expedite their work. We always hear the complaints of "there's nobody to send a direct complaint to or call on the phone". That too is very true and I don't know what the solution would be other than more outrageous listing fees and a bureaucracy that still couldn't deliver any better results. In spite of this, the rarely posted phone numbers and remedies for outright criminal abuse still seem to often bring resolution within a few hours which is nothing short of amazing. I don't hardly expect them to snap the whip on the ass of some random recalcitrant seller/buyer whining about unmentioned scratches although I'm sure we all wish that they would or could. -BM |
#53
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In rec.antiques.radio+phono - - Bill - - wrote:
wrote: Opening an envelope without cutting your fingers can be difficult as well :-) My point being that the virus-scanner should already be installed and running, opening an explorer window is the same as cutting open an envelope, viewing the files is the same as viewing the papers. For an online-service, this is not too much to ask from their office staff. You are dwelling on the wrong point. Do you work for ebay? I am saying e-bay should not make up idiotic excuses for rejecting complaints. Do I work for e-bay? --- Met vriendelijke groet, Maarten Bakker. |
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