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#42
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George M. Middius said:
Here's another one: Supposedly Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth. And yet when their children grew up and moved out, they got married. Where did those other people that Cain and Abel married come from? Why wasn't their miraculous creation chronicled in The Holy Booke? You simply don't have the faith. Repent, Sinner! -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
#43
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#44
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George M. Middius said:
Here's another one: Supposedly Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth. And yet when their children grew up and moved out, they got married. Where did those other people that Cain and Abel married come from? Why wasn't their miraculous creation chronicled in The Holy Booke? You simply don't have the faith. Repent, Sinner! I will if Wheeler does. Wheeler? Wasn't that Scott Wittevrongel? too lazy to look it up, sorry -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
#45
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Believing in God, Allah or whatever deity scares me. Religion changes people into racists and intolerant dogmatics. Really..so all religious people throughout the ages were racists and intolerant dogmatics? Interesting that you would know this. Economical problems, many people losing their job, danger of terrorist attacks...........enough for most to look for relief into religion. This can be observed any time a war is on, or economics go bad. This can be observed any time ..if you cared to look. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#46
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The problem with religion, at least with Christianity, is that the bible can
be interpreted to support any cause of conviction one may hold. they you can go and say that your actions are OK because tehy are backed up by scripture. This may be true but I ahve never personally seen the bible applied this way..usually a misunderstanding of scripture is assumed as opposed to divine guidance. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#47
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Of course there are exceptions.
I was generalizing, which is in general (....) a bad thing. However, the majority of Christians (or Moslims, whatever) are just a mindless herd, following "leaders" that take advantage of their position. Since you cannot know the majority of Christians this statement is obviously your opinion..just checking. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#48
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And to think Mikey was taking issue with Michael Moore's claim that Americans
are stupid. Clearly most are. Clearly huh..and how's that work? John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#49
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It isn't about
religion it is about rational thought. Clearly rational thought is painfully lacking in America. That should be cause for concern. It also seems to confirm that which you were so upset about. Looks like Michael Moore pegged our nation's people. Why were you so upset about it? If rational thought is what you are subscribing to than you know that generalizations are basically worthless to any conversation..so when you say "Micheal Moore..our nations people"..it is an obvious generalization and therefore probably a flawed premise..a valid opinion..maybe..but opinion nonetheless..if we are to aspire to rational thought. It has to work both ways or it doesn't work at all. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#50
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I think he's a prefect example of a lack of rational thought.
He's a perfect example of how living in a free country can allow him to be opinionated and ****ed off that not everyone will agree with him. I jsut don;t get all the popularity of the film..poorly done at best..IMO. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#51
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I think you think in very very simplistic terms. The world is far too
complicated for your ideas. Just my opinion. Yeah...we can see how much better the goverments of the world function the more complex they get. I think you are shooting from the hip. There are very specific beliefs about these issues held by various groups. You just generalized about a whole bunch of stuff and now say this? Every poll I have seen has returned the alarming results that in fact the majority of Americans are stupid enough, ignorant enough or scared enough to believe in the primative superstition that the bible is literally true. I find that fact quite unnerving. The tough part is to reengineer the worlds thinking by assuming everyone we don't agree with is stupid. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#52
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No wonder you think there's nothing wrong with Arny. You see what you want
to see. There is no bigger example of seeing what you want to see than F-911...MM asks questions that there are no answers to and then sneeringly insults those who don't agree with him.."I wonder what was going through the President's mind?...what crap. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#53
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"jak163" wrote in message ... On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 03:45:23 GMT, "Michael McKelvy" wrote: I still think that it wouldn't take much to change that perception but that the economy need some more freedom to innovate. Cut taxes and eliminate public education, and we'll have that 65 percent up to 99 percent in no time! I doubt it. We can also cut the Dept. of Energy, Labor, Agriculture, and the FCC. As Everett Dirkson once said: "A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon we're talking real money." |
#54
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Can you guys trim your posts?
John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#55
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Who said anything about everyone? If you can make the case that rational
thought is missing in most actors you'd have a pretty trong case against actors being inteligent on the whole. I think the case against creationists is pretty clear cut. Don't you? Problem is that people deal with people one on one...having an overall prejudice is not beneficial in that scenario. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#56
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Do you really believe anyone can be well informed and inteligent and
believe in creationism unless they feel the fear of their belief system being underminded? I think it is highly unlikely. It may very well be..but how does this further any conversation about anything. It's a free country..we vote..we move..we tolerate..how else is it supposed to work? John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#57
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I guess you missed the discussion amongst some creationists that time
standards are not meaningful when seeking to find the origins of man. (A day today was not a day during creation). If we are dealing with the universe, black holes, varying dimensions.etc..who the heck knows? I don't ..and neither does anyone else..really. If some being did all this do you think it would be easy for humans to understand? This is the stuff we judge peole on? John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#58
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"S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Michael McKelvy" Date: 11/26/2004 7:55 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: t "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Michael McKelvy" Date: 11/26/2004 5:15 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: et "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Michael McKelvy" Date: 11/26/2004 1:18 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: et "S888Wheel" wrote in message ... From: "Trevor Wilson" Date: 11/25/2004 12:38 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au And to think Mikey was taking issue with Michael Moore's claim that Americans are stupid. Clearly most are. If being religious makes you stupid, then clearly most of the world is. Most of the populations of most of the first world countries do not suffer from this mass stupidity over evolution and science in general. Can you cite any evidence for this belief? I'm sure I could with a little search on line. I'm not going to bother unless to tell me you think that Europe has the same phenomenon of a majority of people believing in creationism. Most of Europe is Christian, is it not? Not fundimentalists who don't believe life evolved. That is actually quite rare in Europe. Do they not believe in creationism? Very very few. The rest of the world is pretty much either Muslim, Budist, or Hindu, all of which have some sort of creation myth do they not? Myth yes. And there are fundimentalist Muslems and Jews that also take their respective bibles literally. They are also a minority amoung Jews and Muslems. Just as fundimentalist Christians are amoung first world Christians, excluding the U.S. It isn't about religion it is about rational thought. For me religion is the opposite of rational thought. You paint religion with a rather big brush. What, for instance, do you find irrational about Deism? You know, the common religious belief held by our forefathers who formed this nation. I think they had the right idea but the wrong premise. IMO it is right and proper that the nature of man be taken into account when devising laws and governement. Linking that nature to a supreme being is where the error comes in. Clearly rational thought is painfully lacking in America. Depends on what you're talking about. If you mean as it pertains to allowing people to live their lives and make a living, I'd say we're doing well. Are you not following the thread? I was clearly talking about the rational thought that would preclude the belief in such primative superstitions as the literal belief in Genesis. I think that if one tends to be irrational in one area, they may be in others as well. Regarding political discourse, not so much. I wasn't talking about that either. I assumed you were making a connection between religious belief and politics. That should be cause for concern. It also seems to confirm that which you were so upset about. Looks like Michael Moore pegged our nation's people. Why were you so upset about it? I'm not upset by that in and of itself. It's the sneering, smarmy, way he looks down his nose at those who don't buy his jaundiced views. You seemed to be particularly bothered by his comment that Americans are stupid. Now you are not upset by it? Hmmm. I wasn't upset so much by the fact that he said it, but by the fact that people were denying he said it. Funny, that never happened. Better check back on that one. It's also his dishonesty. If what he believes is true he should be able to make his case much more honestly, with out the editing. I've not read any objective critique of his work that finds his methods to honest or even making a pretense at objectivity. Then why make such an issue over his assertion that Americans are stupid? Because it doesn't hold that people who don't agree with Michale Moore are stupid, in fact the opposite would tend to be more correct IMO. It looks pretty accurate at this point. Not to me. It's still not something I entirely believe, but again, it was that it was being denied that he said it. It wasn't being denied. It was by a few. I think he's a prefect example of a lack of rational thought. Funny, you get that a lot too. Proving only that we don't agree. I think the kind of freedom I enorse and the amount of government suport it would remove frightens people. I also think that there ought not to be contradictions. If it's wrong for the average Joe to take something he didn't earn by force, it can't be OK for the government to essentially do the same thing. I think you think in very very simplistic terms. The world is far too complicated for your ideas. Just my opinion. I believe it has been made that way by irrational thought. Opinions abound. IMO one has to be quite ignorant, quite stupid or quite scared to belive in creationism. My own experience is that people tend to mix a bit of Darwin with a bit of God had a hand in it also. That is quite different unless you are talking about those who believe complexity is proof of god the designer. I see nothing irrational about believing a god set it all in motion. The idea of no God directing things is hard for people who've been fed a diet of some sort of religion all their lives. They think there's a God of some sort who created everything but it was longer ago than the creationists want them to believe, so therefore belief in evolution is OK too. I think you are shooting from the hip. There are very specific beliefs about these issues held by various groups. I doubt very seriously that there are many hard core creationists. Then you are ignoring the data presented at the begining of this threadalong with a **** load of other easily accessable data. Every poll I have seen has returned the alarming results that in fact the majority of Americans are stupid enough, ignorant enough or scared enough to believe in the primative superstition that the bible is literally true. I find that fact quite unnerving. |
#59
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And yet we clearly are going back as a nation. I doubt the numbers would
have been anything like this in the early sixties when science was still seen as a good thing. What do you suppose changed that perception? I don't know. It seemed to happen away from the spot light. I think part of what happened was publicized science started to focus on telling us that all we do is destroying the planet..all based on computer models that we have no way of knowing are correct. In the sixties we went to the moon..something positive to everyone. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#60
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Here's another one: Supposedly Adam and Eve were the first humans on
earth. And yet when their children grew up and moved out, they got married. Where did those other people that Cain and Abel married come from? Why wasn't their miraculous creation chronicled in The Holy Booke? I would assume if you believed the story..they married brothers and sisters.nephews and nieces..etc...since Adam was told to live more than 900 years. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#61
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I know how they react. One only has to look at the creationist propaganda to know how they react. You will get a near memorized reading of that propaganda should you ever challenge the beliefs of a creationist. I've been down that road many times. You seem way into this for someone who is not a creationist. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#62
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"George M. Middius" wrote in message ... More mindless yapping. Do you really believe anyone can be well informed and inteligent and believe in creationism unless they feel the fear of their belief system being underminded? Some people would pass judgement on something as trivial as the ability to spell intelligent but I think that would be wrong. With this thought, you damn yourself with your own whining, you make a stupid argument, and you ignore the larger point. All in a single sentence. This is exactly what Krooger does when he plies his odious "debating trade". This is why you are so closely identified with Kroopologism. Just keep hating George, its all you have. ScottW |
#63
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"Paul Dormer" wrote in message
news "Blind Joni" emitted : Do you really believe anyone can be well informed and intelligent and believe in creationism unless they feel the fear of their belief system being undermined? I think it is highly unlikely. It may very well be..but how does this further any conversation about anything. It's a free country..we vote..we move..we tolerate..how else is it supposed to work? Religion creates division. It's a central cause of many wars and conflicts. Why should it be tolerated? Commerce and trade creates division. It's a central cause of many wars and conflicts. Why should it be tolerated? Exchange and comparison of ideas and philosophies creates division. It's a central cause of many wars and conflicts. Why should it be tolerated? Politics creates division. It's a central cause of many wars and conflicts. Why should it be tolerated? |
#64
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John Chiara said:
Here's another one: Supposedly Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth. And yet when their children grew up and moved out, they got married. Where did those other people that Cain and Abel married come from? Why wasn't their miraculous creation chronicled in The Holy Booke? I would assume if you believed the story..they married brothers and sisters.nephews and nieces..etc...since Adam was told to live more than 900 years. Yet after Cain kills Abel and is cast out of Eden, he complains to God that everyone who sees him will want to kill him. Uh, at that point in time, there are three people on the entire planet. Who is "everyone"? Boon |
#65
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"Marc Phillips" wrote in message
John Chiara said: Here's another one: Supposedly Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth. And yet when their children grew up and moved out, they got married. Where did those other people that Cain and Abel married come from? Why wasn't their miraculous creation chronicled in The Holy Booke? I would assume if you believed the story..they married brothers and sisters.nephews and nieces..etc...since Adam was told to live more than 900 years. Yet after Cain kills Abel and is cast out of Eden, he complains to God that everyone who sees him will want to kill him. Uh, at that point in time, there are three people on the entire planet. OK, we've got a theological expert named Marc Phillips that believes that if someone is not specifically mentioned in the Bible, they dont' exist. Who is "everyone"? All the people who were there, but not named specifically. You know, like the jillions of people who were killed by Noah's flood. The people who built the Tower of Babel. etc., etc. |
#66
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"George M. Middius" wrote in message
Paul Dormer said: It may very well be..but how does this further any conversation about anything. It's a free country..we vote..we move..we tolerate..how else is it supposed to work? Religion creates division. It's a central cause of many wars and conflicts. Why should it be tolerated? Not to mention that "leaders" in many religions put their stamp of approval on stupidity, intolerance, and other bad traits. Not to mention that "leaders" of many sovereign states put their stamp of approval on stupidity, intolerance, and other bad traits. State sovereignty is now, and has been for centuries, much more about political power than about purity of faith. Therefore following Middius *logic*, down with sovereign states! |
#67
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Trevor Wilson wrote I know it is not scientific, nor even independently verified as accurate. Nevertheless, it provides an interesting starting point for discussion. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in657083.shtml -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au Our rational thoughts is constrained to our own experience and to those authority we consider qualified to provide facts. I wonder what happen to the guy who invented electricity. I won't be surprise if they consider him a big joke. It was beyond their experience of truth. |
#68
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That should be ...discovered electricity.... sorry. |
#69
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#70
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"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
What good did religion in general bring to the world? Since the word religion is so general, it need not have brought anything in particular. |
#71
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"Arny Krueger" said:
Yet after Cain kills Abel and is cast out of Eden, he complains to God that everyone who sees him will want to kill him. Uh, at that point in time, there are three people on the entire planet. OK, we've got a theological expert named Marc Phillips that believes that if someone is not specifically mentioned in the Bible, they dont' exist. Who is "everyone"? All the people who were there, but not named specifically. You know, like the jillions of people who were killed by Noah's flood. The people who built the Tower of Babel. etc., etc. Prove it. Use any method at your disposal. -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
#72
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From: (Blind Joni)
Date: 11/28/2004 3:50 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: And to think Mikey was taking issue with Michael Moore's claim that Americans are stupid. Clearly most are. Clearly huh..and how's that work? Maybe if you read the reason given instead of editing out of your response..... John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#73
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From: (Blind Joni)
Date: 11/28/2004 4:02 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I think you think in very very simplistic terms. The world is far too complicated for your ideas. Just my opinion. Yeah...we can see how much better the goverments of the world function the more complex they get. Actually if you knew much about history or even current politics you actually could see how complex systems of government like ous work much better than simple oines like monarchies and totalitarian governments. I think you are shooting from the hip. There are very specific beliefs about these issues held by various groups. You just generalized about a whole bunch of stuff and now say this? What did I genralize about? Are you unaware of the specific beliefs of creationists? Every poll I have seen has returned the alarming results that in fact the majority of Americans are stupid enough, ignorant enough or scared enough to believe in the primative superstition that the bible is literally true. I find that fact quite unnerving. The tough part is to reengineer the worlds thinking by assuming everyone we don't agree with is stupid. No such assumption was made. For someone who seems to object to generalizations and assumptions you are mighty guilty of making them. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#74
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From: (Blind Joni)
Date: 11/28/2004 4:12 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: I guess you missed the discussion amongst some creationists that time standards are not meaningful when seeking to find the origins of man. (A day today was not a day during creation). If we are dealing with the universe, black holes, varying dimensions.etc..who the heck knows? Jee try to kep track of what is being talked about before jumping in. We are talking about creationism and the rationality of believing in it. I don't ..and neither does anyone else..really. What exactly are you babbling about? Do you think science has made no discoveries about the nature of the universe? Do you believe everything that you don't understand or know about is universally incomprehensable? If some being did all this do you think it would be easy for humans to understand? Why would it be hard? Please offer a logical argument that a supreme being would choose to make a universe that is inherently impossible for it's inhabitants to understand. This is the stuff we judge peole on? No. Your inability to grasp the content of the thread OTOH.... John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#75
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From: (Blind Joni)
Date: 11/28/2004 3:53 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: It isn't about religion it is about rational thought. Clearly rational thought is painfully lacking in America. That should be cause for concern. It also seems to confirm that which you were so upset about. Looks like Michael Moore pegged our nation's people. Why were you so upset about it? If rational thought is what you are subscribing to than you know that generalizations are basically worthless to any conversation. Wrong. But please feel free to prove that generalizations are inherently irrational. By the way, did you realize you used a generalization to attack the use of generalizations? You ought to pay attention to what you are saying. ..so when you say "Micheal Moore..our nations people"..it is an obvious generalization Michael Moore is a generalization? So far you are doing as well as a monkey on a typewriter. and therefore probably a flawed premise. Prove that a premise is flawed if it is not specific. ..a valid opinion..maybe..but opinion nonetheless. Where did you get the idea that my opinion stated as opinion was not an opinion? ..if we are to aspire to rational thought. It has to work both ways or it doesn't work at all. Rational thought and generalizations are not mutually exclusive. Of course all you used in your argument was generalizations so we could take your word for it and ignore your argument. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#76
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"Arny Krueger" said:
What good did religion in general bring to the world? Since the word religion is so general, it need not have brought anything in particular. It's much easier to sum up the bad that religion brought upon us, don't you think? ;-) -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
#77
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"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" said: What good did religion in general bring to the world? Since the word religion is so general, it need not have brought anything in particular. It's much easier to sum up the bad that religion brought upon us, don't you think? ;-) Only if one has a phobia about it. Even according to their own teachings, religions are at least half a creation of man. They are just another kind of flawed human institutions. |
#78
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Sander deWaal wrote:
"Arny Krueger" said: What good did religion in general bring to the world? Since the word religion is so general, it need not have brought anything in particular. It's much easier to sum up the bad that religion brought upon us, don't you think? ;-) -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " While religion has definitely served a therapeutic purpose for many people during times of suffering, it's also true that a huge number of armed conflicts have been fought because of religious differences and prejudices. In addition, many hate groups have been formed over the years to discriminate against the people of one religion or another. Also, as we are currently seeing in the midEast, religious figures not infrequently call for the murder and/or annihilation of people of of other faiths. Additionally, generation of religious and ethnic hatreds can often be directly traced to various religious sermons and/or publications. Bruce J. Richman |
#79
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"Arny Krueger" said:
They (religions) are just another kind of flawed human institutions. Well, today must be a special day. I agree with you (again!). What must become of this world? ;-) -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
#80
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Sander deWaal wrote:
"Arny Krueger" said: What good did religion in general bring to the world? Since the word religion is so general, it need not have brought anything in particular. It's much easier to sum up the bad that religion brought upon us, don't you think? ;-) This sounds like an HiFi thread started by a guy which has never listened anything else but his walkman. :-) |
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