JBorg wrote:

Fella" wrote

JBorg wrote:

Double blind again? You seem to believe they're effective, do you really?
How so?

We did a double-blind test on audioquest 3.3 ac power cord attached to the
densen amp as against a stock power cord, just yesterday evening. I was the test
subject. A friend helped.

While I was away from the hifi room the friend changed, or not, the cord
employed (all during the amp volume was not touched, the amp is always on a
ready to use state, the only on-off switch with it is in the back) and wrote
what he did to his paper, as in, 1: AQ käytössä (finnish for "AQ in use") He
then leaved the room and went to the adjacent room, closed the door. We had
agreed that he makes always sounds of plugging and unplugging from wall outlet
regardles of changing or not. Also, he takes exactly one minute to do so, then
leaves the room. I never saw his face all during the test (lest I sense what he
did ) I came over from the living room to the hifi room and pressed play (the
number 7 on the remote to be exact). I could not see the outlet or the cord in
between because we covered it all up with the gigantic pillows from the living
room couch (yes yes, I have an understanding wife ) ...

Now what the AQ power cord does to the densen is that it makes it a rock-n-roll
jukebox bass thumping and pumping machine, as opposed to it being this fluid,
sweet midrange romantic type of amp otherwise. So for all practical purposes my
friend could have left the light on in the room, or off, and I was to determine
that.

We did the experiment 15 times, I new all without a mistake.


Hi Fella, so you did 15 times without a mistake!

Well the differences were so obvious that, after the whole thing was
over, even my wife listening from another room all the whilst said she
heard them when I was playing that song over and over again..


I'm not familiar with
the DBT protocols for power cords,

Neither am I. This is just pre-excercise for the friend and I, as we
will be matching amps in an ABX test for another freind soon. Plus, I am
thinking of challenging the million dollar challenge some more, but more
on that later.

are length and gauge the same?

No, the stock cord is shorter, while the AQ is much thicker, longer, has
an integrated RF stopper and much thicker and stiffer.

wrote:

It's my experience that there are slight audible differences between
speaker wires of sufficiently hefty gauge, or ampacity, and of commonly
used lengths, but that those differences have no connection to price
whatever and that products available from electrical supply stores are
as good, overall, as products specifically marketed for high end audio
use.

Generally, what you say above is true. Except that if a given product is
sold in some fancy high-end boutique with an astronomical price tag it
doesn't necessarily mean that it is some bogus product trying to cash in
on some imaginative placebo effect of looks and price that people are
hooked on. I just don't think that sane people would get together and
establish a business based on the sole unproven premise that people have
developed an "imaginative placebo effect of looks and hig price" that is
even able to override what their ears hear. Just think of a bunch of
people basing their livelihood on such shaky ground. Pretty risky stuff,
I'd say.

In short, behind most of the high end expensive gear there really is
lots of research (or maybe even trial and error guesswork) and effort.
And some of the technology that they come up with will trickle down to
the onkyo's and yamaha's of the world, eventually.

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


I give it 24 hours till the Kroo**** starts flying.

Fecal obsession noted. I guess you're getting itchy Art, since its probably
been at least 8 hours since they changed your Depends.

Arny Krueger wrote
JBorg wrote
Arny Krueger wrote



If I try a pair of interconnects and didn't like it, it goes back.

Same for me only usually, I'm smart enough to leave the bad ones in
the store.

Since you didn't had a chance to audition it, did you leave it
behind 'cause you can't afford it ?

No Borgma, unlike you I can often identify garbage when I see it.


Maybe it's time you place a full size mirror down there in your basement.
Computer monitors aren't all that reflective you see.

Fella wrote
JBorg wrote:
Fella wrote


snip

Now what the AQ power cord does to the densen is that it makes it a rock-n-roll
jukebox bass thumping and pumping machine, as opposed to it being this fluid,
sweet midrange romantic type of amp otherwise. So for all practical purposes my
friend could have left the light on in the room, or off, and I was to determine
that.

We did the experiment 15 times, I new all without a mistake.


Hi Fella, so you did 15 times without a mistake!

Well the differences were so obvious that, after the whole thing was over, even
my wife listening from another room all the whilst said she heard them when I
was playing that song over and over again..

I once plug an AQ power cord in my pwr amp many years ago and as I remember,
the sound became too soft, less dynamic, and uninvolving so I return it after 3
days.
Then I tried another one made by WireWorld and kept it.

I'm not familiar with
the DBT protocols for power cords,

Neither am I. This is just pre-excercise for the friend and I, as we will be
matching amps in an ABX test for another freind soon. Plus, I am thinking of
challenging the million dollar challenge some more, but more on that later.

I think this guy Randi is all talk, no balls, and not willing to depart with his
money
'cause he knows that dbt/abx is a sham. He's making potshots at highend tweak
mfr just so to keep his own agenda rolling. He should post at newsgroups and see
what he's made of. I wonder what he looks like without a skin.


are length and gauge the same?

No, the stock cord is shorter, while the AQ is much thicker, longer, has an
integrated RF stopper and much thicker and stiffer.

In all fairness, Fella, this things need to maintain some equality

Fella" wrote


Poor old ****borg, back to his ****borg manners when debunked, yet once again.

When will you learn, ****borg?


Well Fella, do keep us updated on your homestyle dbt. I'm sure Ferstler,
malicious as he is, is interested. Are you using your favorite and familiar
music? You mentioned using a 7 sec. excerpt of a particular song, what
happen if you listen much longer than that particularly next when you begin
comparing amps or interconnects (of equal competents, of course.)?

JBorg wrote:

Fella wrote
No, the stock cord is shorter, while the AQ is much thicker, longer, has an
integrated RF stopper and much thicker and stiffer.


In all fairness, Fella, this things need to maintain some equality

Well, I disagree there with you. Should we request AQ to make cords that
are just like stock power cords, flimsy, thin, same material used for
isolation and insulation, etc, but still have them sound different?
Obviously, that's not at all possible. The issue is that these things,
for whatever the reason, be it length, gauge, rf stoppers, strand
interraction, resistance values, whatever, make a difference in sound.
So the "wire is wire" claim is absolute bul****. Just like "amp is amp"
bul****. Silly old ferstler would say that a mark levinson amp would
sound the same as an off the shelf yamaha if it did not have an
oversized power supply, huge rectifiers, etc, which is just silly stuff.

Whatever the reason, in terms of design, materials used, corners cut,
priorities taken/given, etc, equipment will vary from one another.

JBorg wrote:

Fella" wrote


Poor old ****borg, back to his ****borg manners when debunked, yet once again.

When will you learn, ****borg?



Well Fella, do keep us updated on your homestyle dbt.

Sure. We will go into a lab soon with amps, the results will end up
in a thesis, etc, too, so I'll keep you guys posted.

I will though, eventually move on with this ABX, etc, stuff, as it seems
silly that one should prove the existence of differences between given
equipment. Trucks are different then each other, cars are, speakers are,
paper, pens, computers, shoes, you anme it, just about ANYTHING, so why
not amps, cd players, etc.

I'm sure Ferstler,
malicious as he is, is interested. Are you using your favorite and familiar
music?

Yes ofcourse. Since I wouldn't be listening pink noise from any
component at anytime.

You mentioned using a 7 sec. excerpt of a particular song, what
happen if you listen much longer than that particularly next when you begin
comparing amps or interconnects

Well there are occasions when I am auditioning a piece of equipment and
I start listening with an investigative approach but find myself lost in
music for hours on end.

(of equal competents, of course.)?


Did you components? Why should I test equal (same?) components? Besides,
if the make and/or model are different, I doubt any two component would
be equal.

Fella" wrote
JBorg wrote:
Fella" wrote





Poor old ****borg, back to his ****borg manners when debunked, yet once again.

When will you learn, ****borg?



Well Fella, do keep us updated on your homestyle dbt.

Sure. We will go into a lab soon with amps, the results will end up in a
thesis, etc, too, so I'll keep you guys posted.

I will though, eventually move on with this ABX, etc, stuff, as it seems silly
that one should prove the existence of differences between given equipment.
Trucks are different then each other, cars are, speakers are, paper, pens,
computers, shoes, you anme it, just about ANYTHING, so why not amps, cd players,
etc.

I'm sure Ferstler,
malicious as he is, is interested. Are you using your favorite and familiar
music?

Yes ofcourse. Since I wouldn't be listening [to]pink noise from any component at
anytime.


Oh yes, and we remember that we don't usually use pink noise to discern subtle
sound differences in sighted listening. Lol!



You mentioned using a 7 sec. excerpt of a particular song, what
happen if you listen much longer than that particularly next when you begin
comparing amps or interconnects

Well there are occasions when I am auditioning a piece of equipment and I start
listening with an investigative approach but find myself lost in music for hours
on end.


Oh no, the music is emotionally distracting you. That cannot be.


(of equal competents, of course.)?

Did you [mean] components? Why should I test equal (same?) components? Besides,
if the make and/or model are different, I doubt any two component would be
equal.


Oh I meant equally competent. That is, comparing components in the same
class.

Fella wrote
JBorg wrote:
Fella wrote




No, the stock cord is shorter, while the AQ is much thicker, longer, has an
integrated RF stopper and much thicker and stiffer.


In all fairness, Fella, this things need to maintain some equality

Well, I disagree there with you. Should we request AQ to make cords that are
just like stock power cords, flimsy, thin, same material used for isolation and
insulation, etc, but still have them sound different? Obviously, that's not at
all possible. The issue is that these things, for whatever the reason, be it
length, gauge, rf stoppers, strand interraction, resistance values, whatever,
make a difference in sound.

Well I meant that the gauge and length should be the same. Otherwise,
you get ticketed by Krooborg. Hahaha.


So the "wire is wire" claim is absolute bul****. Just like "amp is amp" bul****.
Silly old ferstler would say that a mark levinson amp would sound the same as an
off the shelf yamaha if it did not have an oversized power supply, huge
rectifiers, etc, which is just silly stuff.

Whatever the reason, in terms of design, materials used, corners cut, priorities
taken/given, etc, equipment will vary from one another.

"Arny Krueger" said:

OK, so the stock power cord was broken.

OK, so you have no answer.

I can live with that, note.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

"Arny Krueger" said:

I give it 24 hours till the Kroo**** starts flying.

Fecal obsession noted. I guess you're getting itchy Art, since its probably
been at least 8 hours since they changed your Depends.

Arnold,
Just a friendly advice: the first rule of being witty is to never use
an old joke twice on the same day.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

Paul Dormer said:

I recently asked Nousaine to give me a example of the practical worth
of double blind tests by asking him which of three nominated
amplifiers would work best with my speakers (a DBT is impractical for
me to do myself). Seeing as he is such a font of knowledge, I expected
a snappy answer... he vamoosed as quickly as you can say "****in'
coward!!"

You should've asked more politely ;-)

A few days ago, I again asked about an amplifier to use with my
speakers.. the Marantz PM7200 to be specific. The retarded ABX
contingent once again had naff all productive things to say, busy as
they were discussing their fecal obsessions etc, proving once again
the lack of *practical* worth of these supposed "tests". Where are the
results when you need them?

I warned you.

Have one of mine, if you dare!

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


I give it 24 hours till the Kroo**** starts flying.

Fecal obsession noted. I guess you're getting itchy Art, since its
probably been at least 8 hours since they changed your Depends.


I see it only took you six minutes to unload a bowel movement upon Fella.

Paul Dormer wrote:

I recently asked Nousaine to give me a example of the practical worth
of double blind tests by asking him which of three nominated
amplifiers would work best with my speakers (a DBT is impractical for
me to do myself).

I wonder why you would ask a borg such a thing. Not familiar with your
speakers, but I'd say always go with the low wattage high current type
of an amp. 60 watts per channel at most. But OverSized output stage.

IMHO, best way to find YOUR amplifier would be to take home all possible
candidates and audition for a week at a time. Listen all your favorite
music. And when you find that you are not paying attention to the this
and that of the amp anymore, then it's time to pay up.


Anyway.. the Marantz is technically a very good amp, it should sound
identical to the similarly competent Audiolab 8000A it was replacing
... right?? Wrong. The Marantz sounds completely different. Suddenly
I'm rewarded with prodigious amounts of (not the tightest) bass. That
I did not expect. I didn't know these JM Labs were capable of going so
low. And playing the remastered "On Land" by Brian Eno... with the
Audiolab you can hear the tape tracks 'unfolding' into the mix on the
first cut. With the Marantz that detail is severely diminished.


Never heard a marantz before, though I am guessing what you mean. My pre
highend amp was an onkyo integrated. Integra 9711 to be exact. It had,
yes, bass.

Rotel 1070 pre/power might be just the ticket.

May I give you an IMHO advice again? Ok, so here it is: Generally rotel
makes dull, even, polite sounding stuff, which doesn't get you involved.
For whatever it might be worth, take it as a friendly opinion.

Try these, for instance;

threshold
krell
densen
sonus faber musica
bladelius


Good luck.

Paul Dormer a écrit :
"Sander deWaal" emitted :


I recently asked Nousaine to give me a example of the practical worth
of double blind tests by asking him which of three nominated
amplifiers would work best with my speakers (a DBT is impractical for
me to do myself). Seeing as he is such a font of knowledge, I expected
a snappy answer... he vamoosed as quickly as you can say "****in'
coward!!"

You should've asked more politely ;-)


I did.

OK.. sure.. I have treated Tommy like something off the bottom of my
shoe for a few years but a) he should be used to that by now and b) he
can and does rise for the bait. Anyway, it was a chance for him to
proove himself. A chance to shine.


A few days ago, I again asked about an amplifier to use with my
speakers.. the Marantz PM7200 to be specific. The retarded ABX
contingent once again had naff all productive things to say, busy as
they were discussing their fecal obsessions etc, proving once again
the lack of *practical* worth of these supposed "tests". Where are the
results when you need them?

I warned you.


Blind tests and other DBTs are *totally* imcompatible with pleasure.
Analytic description doesn't mobilize the same human resources than the
quest of pleasure...
You and Mr. Nousaine aren't looking in the same direction.


Against that amp? I was waiting for your advice!! It's actually OK.
Something a bit velvety happens when you flick into Class A.


Have one of mine, if you dare!


Go on then.. what you got? ;-)

Do I have to keep it?

BTW I thought you were ****ting me about the JM Lab clones.. then I
discovered there *are* people out there cloning JM Labs! Was that for
real? Do you have any pics of it (in the nude preferably)?

http://www.exquisiteaudio.ca/

Clyde Slick" wrote in message
"Fella" wrote in message




Whatever the reason, in terms of design, materials used, corners cut,
priorities taken/given, etc, equipment will vary from one another.

I agree with you. This is a consumer decision whether to purchase
a new cord to replace the stock cord. All that matters is if you hear a
difference you like, and if you think the price is worth it.


Full point.

With regard to comparing cords, among the minimum req. I assume
would be that they'd be of the same gauge and length.

"JBorg" wrote in message
m
Clyde Slick" wrote in message
"Fella" wrote in message


Whatever the reason, in terms of design, materials used, corners
cut, priorities taken/given, etc, equipment will vary from one
another.

I agree with you. This is a consumer decision whether to purchase
a new cord to replace the stock cord. All that matters is if you
hear a difference you like, and if you think the price is worth it.

Full point.

Full o'crap.

With regard to comparing cords, among the minimum req. I assume
would be that they'd be of the same gauge and length.

Art, Borg and Fella, one of two most important things that all three of
you bozos seem to show zero understanding of is the fact that power is not
distributed to the piece of equipment by just a power cord. Power comes to
the equipment via an integrated system stretching all the way back to the
power plant. Changing the last 4 or six feet of this system is like spitting
in the wind unless that last few feet is really horrific.

The other thing you three zombies seem to show zero understanding of is that
resistance to various characteristics of the power system is a feature of
all audio gear, electronic equipment, and electrical equipment. A piece of
equipment that is adversely audibly affected by small changes in the power
system is a low quality piece of equipment.

Most of the differences between a high end power cord and a regular power
cord are eyewash. Art, Borg and Fella are like race car drivers who obsess
over paint color as a means for improving handling. By wasting their time
and effort on this trivia, they miss out on making substantial changes that
might actually improve sound quality.

"JBorg" wrote in message
m...

Clyde Slick" wrote in message
"Fella" wrote in message




Whatever the reason, in terms of design, materials used, corners cut,
priorities taken/given, etc, equipment will vary from one another.

I agree with you. This is a consumer decision whether to purchase
a new cord to replace the stock cord. All that matters is if you hear a
difference you like, and if you think the price is worth it.


Full point.

With regard to comparing cords, among the minimum req. I assume
would be that they'd be of the same gauge and length.


Fine for you, but often the question is whether to spend money to
upgrade a cord, so the comparison would be between
the standard cord provided with the unit and an upgraded cord.

Arny Krueger wrote
JBorg wrote
Clyde wrote
"Fella wrote


Whatever the reason, in terms of design, materials used, corners
cut, priorities taken/given, etc, equipment will vary from one
another.

I agree with you. This is a consumer decision whether to purchase
a new cord to replace the stock cord. All that matters is if you
hear a difference you like, and if you think the price is worth it.

Full point.

Full o'crap.

With regard to comparing cords, among the minimum req. I assume
would be that they'd be of the same gauge and length.


Art, Borg and Fella, one of two most important things that all three of you
bozos


I was referring to the requirement if homestyle dbt is done for the cords.
You are the one who always say that when in doubt, you have to dbt this
and dbt that.

seem to show zero understanding of is the fact that power is not distributed to
the piece of equipment by just a power cord. Power comes to the equipment via an
integrated system stretching all the way back to the power plant. Changing the
last 4 or six feet of this system is like spitting in the wind unless that last
few feet is really horrific.

The other thing you three zombies seem to show zero understanding of is that
resistance to various characteristics of the power system is a feature of all
audio gear, electronic equipment, and electrical equipment. A piece of equipment
that is adversely audibly affected by small changes in the power system is a low
quality piece of equipment.

Most of the differences between a high end power cord and a regular power cord
are eyewash. Art, Borg and Fella are like race car drivers who obsess over paint
color as a means for improving handling. By wasting their time and effort on
this trivia, they miss out on making substantial changes that might actually
improve sound quality.


Fortunately, this is not about what your eyes see like you think it should. It's
about what your ears hear. I never bought cables or inteconnects because of
their looks (or brand).

Clyde Slick wrote in message
JBorg wrote in message
Clyde Slick wrote in message
"Fella wrote in message




Whatever the reason, in terms of design, materials used, corners cut,
priorities taken/given, etc, equipment will vary from one another.

I agree with you. This is a consumer decision whether to purchase
a new cord to replace the stock cord. All that matters is if you hear a
difference you like, and if you think the price is worth it.


Full point.

With regard to comparing cords, among the minimum req. I assume
would be that they'd be of the same gauge and length.


Fine for you, [...]


No. By comparing, I was relating to what would be the min req. under
homestyle dbt which Fella is doing. This was a comment in line with his.


but often the question is whether to spend money to
upgrade a cord, [...]


No, often the question is if there's sonic improvement otherwise...


so the comparison would be between
the standard cord provided with the unit and an upgraded cord.


.... are they making comparison to see if the standard cord provided is
broken?

What I have found with power cords is that more is better, i.e. the
heavier gauge wire is the best. As a general rule if the power cord
makes a difference, there is something wrong with the wall socket, the
wiring to it, or the (usually) IEC socket on the unit.

Spending a great deal on the power cord is always a mistake, with
high end power cords costing more than the cost to call out the pros
and have your wall socket redone properly from the fuse box. Putting in
a better-than-code ground is always a good move, also.

wrote




What I have found with power cords is that more is better, i.e. the
heavier gauge wire is the best. As a general rule if the power cord
makes a difference, there is something wrong with the wall socket, the
wiring to it, or the (usually) IEC socket on the unit.


What if there isn't anything wrong with the orig. pwr cord or the wall socket
and the IEC socket on the unit and yet, the upgraded HE cord with same
gauge provided sonic improvements ?



Spending a great deal on the power cord is always a mistake, with
high end power cords costing more than the cost to call out the pros
and have your wall socket redone properly from the fuse box. Putting in
a better-than-code ground is always a good move, also.


Realistically now, my upgraded cord cost considerably less than
calling in the pros.

Well if you like it better, fine, but in most cases it won't. I am not
saying never, I am saying usually.

If you are a DIYer (or willing to mod and thereby devalue your
vintage/boooteek piece) using something besides an IEC for your power
amp has many advantages. There are several alternatives, mostly you
want more contact area and more mechanical interface reliability. As
with human genitalia, the idea that IEC male and female parts are
universally interchangeable with satisfactory and safe results is the
doctrine of reality-challenged fundamentalists rather than an
observation based on any statistically credible experience. When I was
a factory test tech using almost nothing but HP (this was before the
Broad Restructuring a/k/a Agilent) and Tek test equipment-management
didn't like buying 'third tier' vendor equipment-we had a pile of power
cords and some cords would not stay plugged inside some instruments'
IEC recessed males whereas others could be inserted only with force and
silicone spray. And it had nothing to do with brand,i.e. HP or Tek. On
more than one occasion I swapped power cords out with a PC or 3270
to get one that would fit.

That, right there, is 75% of the variation in IEC power cable
subjective audio performance, and if you need any other reason to look
at some alternative-whether a PowerCon, a recessed male NEMA
connector (i.e. like a wall plug), or any of the old appliance plugs
still available from niche vendors-you aren't paying attention or don't
really care.

wrote in message



Well if you like it better, fine, but in most cases it won't. I am not
saying never, I am saying usually.

If you are a DIYer (or willing to mod and thereby devalue your
vintage/boooteek piece) using something besides an IEC for your power
amp has many advantages. There are several alternatives, mostly you
want more contact area and more mechanical interface reliability. As
with human genitalia, the idea that IEC male and female parts are
universally interchangeable with satisfactory and safe results is the
doctrine of reality-challenged fundamentalists rather than an
observation based on any statistically credible experience. When I was
a factory test tech using almost nothing but HP (this was before the
Broad Restructuring a/k/a Agilent) and Tek test equipment-management
didn't like buying 'third tier' vendor equipment-we had a pile of power
cords and some cords would not stay plugged inside some instruments'
IEC recessed males whereas others could be inserted only with force and
silicone spray. And it had nothing to do with brand,i.e. HP or Tek. On
more than one occasion I swapped power cords out with a PC or 3270
to get one that would fit.

That, right there, is 75% of the variation in IEC power cable
subjective audio performance, and if you need any other reason to look
at some alternative-whether a PowerCon, a recessed male NEMA
connector (i.e. like a wall plug), or any of the old appliance plugs
still available from niche vendors-you aren't paying attention or don't
really care.

Well first, the sonic improvements with cords which I neglected to explain
with Fella earlier was that this improvement I noticed only with the overall
sound becoming bigger-- as with the soundstaging. The bass remain fuller
even more without any noticeable haziness or additional background noises
in sound, if you will. As far as changes in midrange character, tonality, or
articulation of musical passages -- I absolutely didn't see any differences at
all.

Comments I'd like to add to your derisive post above is that you seem to
miss the part where critical listening in front of the stereo comes into to play.
And no, I'm not a DIYer yet.

Paul Dormer said:

I warned you.

Against that amp? I was waiting for your advice!! It's actually OK.
Something a bit velvety happens when you flick into Class A.

You then emailed me about another amp, a Primare.
I then told you that based on what information was there, that amp
would probably be a better proposition.

I never cared much for Marantz, except the '60 tube models.

Have one of mine, if you dare!

Go on then.. what you got? ;-)

I have only power amps left, but I can easily built in a volume
control and source select switches.
It is the prototype of my hybrid design.

Do I have to keep it?

You may have it on loan, if you like it you can buy it :-)

BTW I thought you were ****ting me about the JM Lab clones.. then I
discovered there *are* people out there cloning JM Labs! Was that for
real? Do you have any pics of it (in the nude preferably)?

They're knock-offs of the Utopia, being a bit different styled.
They're at my father's house, got to take my camera with me next time
we're there .

I'll try to remember!

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

Paul Dormer said:

Yes, and as always I appreciated your advice.. but you didn't say
*why* you thought the Primare would be better, except that they quote
an output rating into 4ohm and Marantz doesn't. The Marantz puts 155w
into 4ohm, regardless of that, so I wasn't sure what to make of your
comment.

Power ratings are meaningless.
Power reserve, however, is one importnat property of a SS amp.

I never cared much for Marantz, except the '60 tube models.

Why?

Dull, boring, you name it.

I have only power amps left, but I can easily built in a volume
control and source select switches.
It is the prototype of my hybrid design.

It got toobs!!

The hybrid prototype only has 2 ECC88s, the rest is SS, even the HV
rectifier.

Still scared of vacuum? ;-)

Do I have to keep it?

You may have it on loan, if you like it you can buy it :-)

I am interested, not least because I'd like to hear one of your
designs (OK.. a prototype) for myself. Might give me a handle on some
of the discussions you've been having here with Graham.. or not as the
case may be . Thanks for the offer. I'll have a think about it and
email you.

This amp has nothing to do with our KT88 PP in triode discussions.
The only thing they have in common is the heater voltage ;-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

Paul Dormer said:

Power ratings are meaningless.
Power reserve, however, is one importnat property of a SS amp.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I'm still not sure what you're getting
at. The Marantz "..offers spare voltage on a transient basis, making
the momentary peak output of the amp more like 160watts." [Courtesy of
Hifi Choice]. I never thought it would be a Krell killer, but I'm not
sure what you're driving at here?

I'm throwing pearls of wisdom your way, and all you do is asking why
I'm targeting you ;-)

What I'm driving at (pun intended) is adequate control of the speaker.
155 watts, no, make that 160 watts. How important is that?
Even if it will be delivered in a flat resistor of 4 ohms, all you
will gain is a lot of smoke.

Current, my dear.
That, and the ability to handle complex loads.

No more, lest I alert the Borgs.

I never cared much for Marantz, except the '60 tube models.

Why?

Dull, boring, you name it.

OK. Fury muff.

Domrer, its like, some Marantz's sound more alike than other's, NOT!

;-)

Still scared of vacuum? ;-)

Petrified! I often leave my gear on and listen to it when I go to
sleep. Would that be a problem? Is it likely to blow up in my face
when I switch it on? :-)

With my contraptions, you'll never know for sure.
This amp is so overspecced, even NASA and the JPL thought of it as
overkill. Does that help?

It is a class A design, always on, (you can't turn it off even if you
wanted it to), and when idle, it turns to class B.

BTW you'll save a lot on your heating bills when playing music ;-)

This amp has nothing to do with our KT88 PP in triode discussions.
The only thing they have in common is the heater voltage ;-)

Boo. I want KT88. Gimme!!

Currently, all tube amps are decomposed into loose parts, until I'm
ready to build something new.

Which will be after the move, so no KTs for a few months. Sorry.

Try Graham.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

"Paul Dormer" wrote in message
...
: "Sander deWaal" emitted :
:
: Paul Dormer said:
: Still scared of vacuum? ;-)
:
: Boo. I want KT88. Gimme!!
:
Yeah, the bohemian blue one's, on a steel chassis, TiN on top
golden blue, ..
Rudy

: S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
: -----------------------------------
: It's Grim down south..

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

Paul Dormer said:

Yes, and as always I appreciated your advice.. but you didn't say
*why* you thought the Primare would be better, except that they quote
an output rating into 4ohm and Marantz doesn't. The Marantz puts 155w
into 4ohm, regardless of that, so I wasn't sure what to make of your
comment.

Power ratings are meaningless.

Tell that to someone that is listening to an amp that is clipping because it
simply ran out of power.

Power reserve, however, is one importnat property of a SS amp.

Not really. SS amps are typically sonically very clean right up to and
actually slightly past clipping.

"Arny Krueger" said:

Power ratings are meaningless.

Tell that to someone that is listening to an amp that is clipping because it
simply ran out of power.

500 watts PMPO, anyone? ;-)

Power reserve, however, is one importnat property of a SS amp.

Not really. SS amps are typically sonically very clean right up to and
actually slightly past clipping.

Thanks Arnold, now we all know for sure I was right.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

Power ratings are meaningless.

Tell that to someone that is listening to an amp that is clipping
because it simply ran out of power.

500 watts PMPO, anyone? ;-)

End of discussion due to your inability to say something relevant, Sander.

"Arny Krueger" said:

Power ratings are meaningless.

Tell that to someone that is listening to an amp that is clipping
because it simply ran out of power.

500 watts PMPO, anyone? ;-)

End of discussion due to your inability to say something relevant, Sander.

But Arny, I was only "having fun ;-)"......
Besides, end of discussion because I was right.

Again.

Or is "500 watts PMPO" not a power rating? ;-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
news
"Arny Krueger" said:

Power ratings are meaningless.

Tell that to someone that is listening to an amp that is clipping
because it simply ran out of power.

500 watts PMPO, anyone? ;-)

End of discussion due to your inability to say something relevant, Sander.

But Arny, I was only "having fun ;-)"......
Besides, end of discussion because I was right.


A victory best to have been taken quietly.
There was no need to reawaken the Beast..

"Clyde Slick" said:

But Arny, I was only "having fun ;-)"......
Besides, end of discussion because I was right.


A victory best to have been taken quietly.
There was no need to reawaken the Beast..

Arnold a Beast?
In his own mind, obviously.

My 2 cats are more dangerous.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

Arny Krueger wrote:


power is not
distributed to the piece of equipment by just a power cord. Power comes to
the equipment via an integrated system stretching all the way back to the
power plant.


Now who would have thought of that!? My my, what insight! What
investigative genius, awesome! Are you sure that the "system" really is
"integrated" there now? Maybe it's a system with no integration? Maybe
it's an integrated network but not a system? You just have to check this
one out. Take a fork for instance, go to the nearest wall socket do some
investigative researh for us, won't you?

In anycase, that you figured that one out, I repeat, awesome,
flabbergasting. And to think that all this time I thought that each
outlet in my house had a little power plant behind it. That that's the
way we got electricity. "Power comes to the equipment via an integrated
system stretching all the way back to the power plant." He says!

Had anyone else figured this one out? Torresits ..err..
, azmacowagowan perhaps? How about mickeymcmickey?

Changing the last 4 or six feet of this system is like spitting
in the wind unless that last few feet is really horrific.

Ehm, mister genius, please enlighten us, is it so that water comes to
our homes also "via an integrated system stretching all the way back to
the" reservoir??? That there are np lakes just behind our kitchen walls?
And just think, some silly folks put on a filter at the end of their
tap. To clean up the impurities. The water comes to their taps ALLLLLL
THE WAY back from the plant, travels ALLLL them pipes and they think
they can clean it up in the last few inches!

A piece of
equipment that is adversely audibly affected by small changes in the power
system is a low quality piece of equipment.

This is law no:12341 of borg audio, thus spake the ****borg.

Art, Borg and Fella are like race car drivers who obsess
over paint color as a means for improving handling.

My my, what an applicable, impeccable analogy, what insight, yet again!
Endless genius ..

Fella" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:


power is not distributed to the piece of equipment by just a power cord. Power
comes to the equipment via an integrated system stretching all the way back to
the power plant.


Now who would have thought of that!? My my, what insight! What investigative
genius, awesome! Are you sure that the "system" really is "integrated" there
now? Maybe it's a system with no integration? Maybe it's an integrated network
but not a system? You just have to check this one out. Take a fork for instance,
go to the nearest wall socket do some investigative researh for us, won't you?

Excellent idea.



Changing the last 4 or six feet of this system is like spitting in the wind
unless that last few feet is really horrific.

Ehm, mister genius, please enlighten us, is it so that water comes to our homes
also "via an integrated system stretching all the way back to the" reservoir???
That there are np lakes just behind our kitchen walls? And just think, some
silly folks put on a filter at the end of their tap. To clean up the impurities.
The water comes to their taps ALLLLLL THE WAY back from the plant, travels ALLLL
them pipes and they think they can clean it up in the last few inches!

Yeah, cords could probably act like filter to limit the impurities.



Art, Borg and Fella are like race car drivers who obsess over paint color as a
means for improving handling.

My my, what an applicable, impeccable analogy, what insight, yet again! Endless
genius ..


lol! Fella, I just remember that it was the AQ pwr cord that I tried before.
A 10 awg (not sure) 1 meter long, just like yours I think. I was thrilled to
find out what deal with cords was about. But after listening for the next
2-3 days, that cord actually made the sound soft and less punchy so, back
it went. Maybe you should also try using pwr conditioner on your system
if you haven't already.

I still have, and still using the orig. Power Wedge with 8 outlet along with
the PE-1 which is also plug next to it in the wall socket. I'll be very surprise
if you don't discern sound differences.

How's Finland today !

JBorg wrote:

Maybe you should also try using pwr conditioner on your system
if you haven't already.

I have tried the PSaudio ultimate outlet and transparent XL something
something or other but they all increased bass with the amplifier so
back they went.

I do admit that I have outlet problems, my system was in the big living
room before meshed with the HT system and I had recently extended a
grounded source to it but the little toddler we have grew up in the past
months and now is very much interested with everything that I touch,
etc, so we had to move the highend system to a back room away from the
little bugger and there is no grounded outlet there! In a way your were
right, (or was it some other poster) that instead of paying 2000 euros
for a transparet conditioner I should call in some electrician and have
him do something about the outlet in the hifi room. Might cost less,
though around these parts of the woods it is not a given.


How's Finland today !



-5! Lot's o snow from the weekend.

"Fella" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:


power is not
distributed to the piece of equipment by just a power cord. Power
comes to the equipment via an integrated system stretching all the
way back to the power plant.


Now who would have thought of that!?

Just about everybody with a brain, Fella. Obviously, this is a new one on
you!

My my, what insight! What
investigative genius, awesome! Are you sure that the "system" really
is "integrated" there now? Maybe it's a system with no integration?
Maybe it's an integrated network but not a system? You just have to
check this one out. Take a fork for instance, go to the nearest wall
socket do some investigative researh for us, won't you?

It seems like the thought unhinged you, Fella.


In anycase, that you figured that one out, I repeat, awesome,
flabbergasting. And to think that all this time I thought that each
outlet in my house had a little power plant behind it. That that's the
way we got electricity. "Power comes to the equipment via an
integrated system stretching all the way back to the power plant." He
says!

And your point is???????


Had anyone else figured this one out? Torresits ..err..
, azmacowagowan perhaps? How about mickeymcmickey?

Lots of people have made this point. Wanna finally deal with it, Fellla?

Changing the last 4 or six feet of this system is like spitting
in the wind unless that last few feet is really horrific.

Ehm, mister genius, please enlighten us, is it so that water comes to
our homes also "via an integrated system stretching all the way back
to the" reservoir??? That there are np lakes just behind our kitchen
walls? And just think, some silly folks put on a filter at the end of
their tap. To clean up the impurities. The water comes to their taps
ALLLLLL THE WAY back from the plant, travels ALLLL them pipes and
they think they can clean it up in the last few inches!

Not a bad metaphor.

Can you make sense out of your own metaphor Fella?

A piece of
equipment that is adversely audibly affected by small changes in the
power system is a low quality piece of equipment.

This is law no:12341 of borg audio, thus spake the ****borg.

Are you just going to posture away this whole post, Fella?

Art, Borg and Fella are like race car drivers who obsess
over paint color as a means for improving handling.

My my, what an applicable, impeccable analogy, what insight, yet
again! Endless genius ..

Seems like you have been cornered and you have nothing cogent to say, Fella.
Sad.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Fella" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:


power is not
distributed to the piece of equipment by just a power cord. Power
comes to the equipment via an integrated system stretching all the
way back to the power plant.


Now who would have thought of that!?


Just about everybody with a brain, Fella. Obviously, this is a new one on
you!

Yea, I was thinkin, like, how'd them plastic outlets make electricity?
So there are things called "power plants" and they send the electricity
there? Woow ****borg, there seems to be no end to your knowledge in audio.



My my, what insight! What
investigative genius, awesome! Are you sure that the "system" really
is "integrated" there now? Maybe it's a system with no integration?
Maybe it's an integrated network but not a system? You just have to
check this one out. Take a fork for instance, go to the nearest wall
socket do some investigative researh for us, won't you?


It seems like the thought unhinged you, Fella.

No-no, by all means, do investigate more arny (make sure the fork you do
the investigations with does not have a plastic keep, etc, that it is
bare metal also where you hold it) and come back to us with your
findings. "Integrated system" you say.. Are you sure?




In anycase, that you figured that one out, I repeat, awesome,
flabbergasting. And to think that all this time I thought that each
outlet in my house had a little power plant behind it. That that's the
way we got electricity. "Power comes to the equipment via an
integrated system stretching all the way back to the power plant." He
says!


And your point is???????

The point is that you must be genius to have figured this one out, oo
Arny the great.




Had anyone else figured this one out? Torresits ..err..
, azmacowagowan perhaps? How about mickeymcmickey?


Lots of people have made this point.

Naaa, they can't have been *that* smart.

Wanna finally deal with it, Fellla?

I'm tryin to all the time.



Changing the last 4 or six feet of this system is like spitting
in the wind unless that last few feet is really horrific.


Ehm, mister genius, please enlighten us, is it so that water comes to
our homes also "via an integrated system stretching all the way back
to the" reservoir??? That there are np lakes just behind our kitchen
walls? And just think, some silly folks put on a filter at the end of
their tap. To clean up the impurities. The water comes to their taps
ALLLLLL THE WAY back from the plant, travels ALLLL them pipes and
they think they can clean it up in the last few inches!


Not a bad metaphor.

Can you make sense out of your own metaphor Fella?

Yes in as much as you can make sense of yours. Magic bricks! you say?
We'll see.


Are you just going to posture away this whole post, Fella?


Can I arny? Pretty please, can I?


Art, Borg and Fella are like race car drivers who obsess
over paint color as a means for improving handling.


My my, what an applicable, impeccable analogy, what insight, yet
again! Endless genius ..


Seems like you have been cornered and you have nothing cogent to say, Fella.

Sure does seem so. Ok, but you get to your investigations now, chop
chop. Remember, the fork, outlet bit. Is it really an "integrated system" ??


Sad.